Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Is the USA going over the edge as we speak?

Categories
Academic Freedom
Agitprop
Control vs Anarchy
Defending our Civilization
Geo-strategic issues
Lessons of History
rhetoric
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Scott Adams, American cartoonist and commenter on events with a particular view to persuasion and narrative dominance seems to agree. Transcript of key comments:

I think I’ve been telling you for some time the obvious way that these protests/riots/looting episodes were going to go. There was only one way that these would go under the assumption that the police would not get more aggressive and that the local government would not let the federal government come in and take care of the violent stuff. There was going to be no adult supervision and that was intentional. The local leadership decided to not have any adult leadership during the protests/riots/looting. So it was obvious that the locals would end up arming themselves because what else would happen? Could you think of any other outcome? It was obvious this would be the outcome. And this is just the beginning, not just a one-off. It’s pretty obvious that more militia or more citizens are going to bring heavier arms…and they’re going to start showing up…. There’s probably no way it’s going to stop.

The worst case scenario is if the protesters [–> further?] arm themselves…ultimately this is the way it had to go. I feel bad for anyone who gets hurt and I don’t encourage any violence but as a prediction this was the way it had to go. It will end, but with more of this.

Sobering, and familiar.

Regulars at UD will know that I have long been very concerned about a kinetic escalation/spiral in an ongoing 4th generation culture revolution style, Red Guards driven civil war in the USA, geostrategic centre of gravity of our civilisation. Events over the past few days in Wisconsin (U/D: additional, here also see background here with here, here & here, contrasting what is not seen here) underscore that concern, to the level of juggernaut– out- of- control. (The first just linked seems to be at least a good point of reference for thought on a very regrettable but all too predictable event; the second gives background on the metaphor.)

Let me hark back for a moment to my 2016 global geostrategic framework shared here at UD (after public presentations here in the Caribbean):

That is deep backdrop, as we ponder where our civilisation is in the case of the lynch-pin state, the USA.

What happens to the US over the next six to eighteen months is fraught with global consequences that the general populace is at best dimly aware of; but, bet your last cent that movers and shakers behind the scenes have these considerations (from whatever perspective) in mind.

Now, too, for twenty years, I have often used a representation of sustainability-oriented strategic decision-making tracing to/adapted from the Bariloche Foundation of Argentina, set in the context of Environment Scanning and SWOT analysis:

(This is of course precisely the decision theory model which has led me to point to a serious ethics-epistemology breakdown in managing the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic and how treatments are evaluated.)

Further to such, there is a more stringent version, in effect the challenge of the juggernaut i/l/o Machiavelli’s hectic fever model of political disorders:

Warning-signs, there have been in abundance, complete with many blood-dripping lessons of history. However, in a deeply polarised polity, building critical mass . . . “consensus” is implausible and half-measure compromises will predictably be built-to-fail . . . in good time to avert going over the cliff is hard, hard, hard. Such, is the nature of problematiques.

Perhaps, the problem can be recast instructively in terms of the dilemmas implicit in the Overton Window:

What happens when the acceptable limit imposed by dominant factions and their narratives locks out good solutions? What would shift the window?

The answer comes back, pain; pain and shattering from going over the cliff.

Or, if we are lucky, enough see the signs in time to act as a critical mass towards sound change before the cliff-edge collapses underfoot.

History, however, is not on the side of prudent foresight, and the history of radical revolutions has been particularly bloody and predictably futile. Never mind the pipe dreams sold by tenured profs and promoted by pundits and community organisers. As just a warning, let us compare a fools-cap image from the 1966 Mao-backed Red Guards:

. . . and a notorious recent incident in Washington DC:

. . . not forgetting the tragedy of the man who refused to salute in 1930’s in a Germany ruled by the National Socialist German Worker’s Party (and yes, contrary to the dominant narrative, they meant the “Socialist” part and the “Worker’s” part):

We need to pause and think again, I am somehow unable to take it for granted that we cannot turn back, even at the brink. Maybe, I am being irrationally hopeful for reprieve; but, let us at least ponder a case from an often overlooked classical report:

Ac 19:23 . . . [c. AD 57] there arose no little disturbance [in Ephesus] concerning the Way.

24 For a man named Demetrius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought no little business to the craftsmen.

25 These he gathered together, with the workmen in similar trades, and said [–> behind the scenes manipulative plotting], “Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. 26 And you see and hear that not only in Ephesus but in almost all of Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great many people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. 27 And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis may be counted as nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship.”

28 When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”

29 So the city was filled with the confusion, and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul’s companions in travel. 30 But when Paul wished to go in among the crowd, the disciples would not let him. 31 And even some of the Asiarchs,5 who were friends of his [–> they had charge of the very Temple in question; obviously, Paul’s lectures in the Hall of Tyrannos and his reaching out to people had won him respect and even friendship], sent to him and were urging him not to venture into the theater.

32 Now [in the unlawful assembly] some cried out one thing, some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33 Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander, motioning with his hand, wanted to make a defense to the crowd.

34 But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all cried out with one voice, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”

35 And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd ] –> doubtless, sent by the Asiarchs], he said, “Men of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?6 [–> apparently a meteoritic object turned into an idol] 36 Seeing then that these things cannot be denied, you ought to be quiet and do nothing rash. 37 For you have brought these men here who are neither sacrilegious nor blasphemers of our goddess. 38 If therefore Demetrius and the craftsmen with him have a complaint against anyone, the courts are open, and there are proconsuls. Let them bring charges against one another. 39 But if you seek anything further,7 it shall be settled in the regular assembly. 40 For we really are in danger of being charged with rioting today, since there is no cause that we can give to justify this commotion.” [–> in effect he hinted of the regiment doubtless camped not too far away; cf. the Nika riots under Justinian]

41 And when he had said these things, he dismissed the assembly. [ESV]

How easily, the democratic impulse deteriorates into the raging, out of control, manipulated, riotous, destructive mob!

And if there was no excuse for rioting under a lawful oligarchy (what the C1 Roman Empire had become, after failure of the Republic through envy, selfish ambition, assassination and civil wars leading to the rise of Octavian as Augustus), how much more so, is it inexcusable in any reasonably functional modern constitutional democracy?

I give a bit of context:

U/D: context:

U/d b for clarity, nb Nil

Further U/D, Sep 5, context of the seven mountains model for mapping society/culture/ civilisation and its main pillars of influence:

Governance is visibly failing, some think the mob will be appeased (it cannot), we are at cliff’s edge, with alarming cracks.

Can’t we stop before we go over the cliff?

Please . . . ? END

F/N, Sept 4: FTR, here is a clip of the actual transcript in the context of an incident where Mr Trump is routinely and falsely said to have endorsed Neo-Nazis etc as fine people:

It is obvious that this is precisely the sort of condemnation of neo-nazis that it is suggested Mr Trump has failed to give. That such tainting misrepresentation continues to be routinely promoted speaks volumes on disregard for truth and fairness. Notice, too, how he anticipated the progression from attacking statues of confederate leaders to American founders, with the obvious extension that cancel culture has no limits.

F/N2: Anatomy of a Red Guards Brigadista hit team/swarm in action, Portland USA:

(I add, Sep 6, while the above photo is already demonstrative of a coordinated murderous ambush, there is a video analysis here, UD can only embed YT. This event likely shows that both major front groups involved in the Red Guards brigadista insurgency are joined at the hip. For instance, the shooter had a BLM fist tattoo on his neck and declared himself 100% Antifa. His later suicide by shootout likely shows commitment to not be taken alive, i.e. he had knowledge of key information he judged worth guarding at the cost of his life. Modern interrogation techniques will credibly eventually “break” anyone.)

Let’s clip:

Portland Police are seeking help to identify a possible accomplice pictured here in the Portland Patriot Prayer member shooting. Here is a picture of the moments before the shooting. Notice the shooter is beginning to move as he draws his weapon, even though he does not have a sightline to the targets yet, and his position behind that cover would seem to be far enough back he could not otherwise have known his targets were hitting that position at exactly that moment. How did he know his targets were about to enter the killzone right then, and he needed to draw and begin moving? Even more interesting, in the criminal complaint on page 17, it points out he was initially walking with a woman in a white T-shirt, coming from one direction to that corner, and both were staring down the street at the targets who were a ways away, coming from a completely different place, as if the shooter and his partner had been told over the air to go there, and the targets they were about to shoot were coming from that direction, and they were identifying them. Once they got a bead on the targets, the woman stopped at the corner and loitered as he continued on and took cover in that alcove. Taking a corner gave her sightlines up and down all streets there, which would be second nature to the trained surveillance operative. And yet not having a sightline to the shooter, how would she communicate with him?  They were linked by radio. Look up behind the targets in the picture above, and you will see a lone guy who looks like the guy they are looking for. Notice his hand is covering his mouth just as the shooter begins to move, and the shooter is not holding a walkie talkie to receive any broadcast. It looks an awful like the guy behind the targets had taken surveillance command of the targets, he was trained enough that casually covering his lower face as he whispered into his chest was second nature, and he was radioing to the shooter who had an earpiece to receive, and probably a chest mic to transmit, triggering his movement at that moment, coordinating it to the targets. Also interesting, this new character may be surveillance aware enough he turned away from the surveillance camera as he came into view of it.

It takes a lot of time, recruitment effort, ideological motivation/desensitisation to morality, tactical training by experienced experts and rehearsal to run a complex hit like this. (For sure, this is no hothead running up to someone they hate and shooting in a rage, the surveillance cam shot demonstrates an orchestrated hit of the type used by Intel agency wet work teams or sophisticated terrorists. “mostly peaceful” and “protest” are off the table.)

That has to have a significant, years-long logistics trail, with face to face and communications networking, yielding traffic patterns.

So, this one case may be a break into what is now clearly a terrorist network.

Take it as a yardstick indicating the extent and depth of what is going on, a full-orbed 4th generation war insurgency backed by years of organisation and serious logistics, with carefully laid plans and organisation.

F/N3: And yes, “NAZI” lives don’t matter:

Clear intent to slander, brand and rob of right to life. Instead, we must recognise that life is the first right, without which there are no other rights. Therefore, we start with mutual respect and go on from there.

F/N4: U-Haul a Riot, Sept 2020

Comments
152 DaveS
If something is abstract, it can’t be inside one’s brain, can it?
Darwin (a "brain located in space-time") discovered "darwinian evolution" (something that "is not located in space-time"). (According to you, post #145). So Darwin was part of a dual reality. One "concrete" (his "physical brain") and one "abstract" (the "evolutive idea"). Accepting "darwinian theory" = accepting dualism. Answering your question: "ideas" are then not "located' in brains.Truthfreedom
September 2, 2020
September
09
Sep
2
02
2020
01:07 AM
1
01
07
AM
PDT
152 DaveS
Edit: I don’t believe you have a sound argument here. Consider it from the point of view of someone who claims to be a physicalist.
A "physicalist" can not even coherently explain that "darwinian evolution" is "true". To a physicalist, "darwinian theory" is just another "neurophysiological state". But "neurophysiological states" are neither "true" nor "false". They are simply connections between neurons, difference potentials, rates of fire, and all the causal inputs and outputs. -A "neurophysiological state" is not a "truth" bearer. - How can a "difference potential" "know" if another "difference potential" is "true" or "false"??? Truth does not exist for the physicalist. Therefore, physicalism is incoherent. Truthfreedom
September 2, 2020
September
09
Sep
2
02
2020
12:35 AM
12
12
35
AM
PDT
Evidently Sev wants us to believe that Trump is the one inciting violence https://mobile.twitter.com/ElijahSchaffer/status/1300290897922453504?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1300290897922453504%7Ctwgr%5E&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitchy.com%2Fsamj-3930%2F2020%2F08%2F31%2Fmost-important-video-of-2020-every-time-a-democrat-blames-trump-for-the-violence-show-them-this-damning-video-of-themselves%2F That Trump will not accept election results when just the other day it was Nancy ( going to the hair salon, eating her 20$ a pint out of her 20,000 refrigerator) Pelosi, that told the politician Joe ( been in office 47 years, sponsor of the 1994 crime bill that disproportionately targeted minorities, eulogized a klansman, who did not want his children to be in a racial jungle) Biden ,not to accept the election results. Sev wants us all to live in the alternative universe.he inhabits that is totally disconnected from realty. Vividvividbleau
September 2, 2020
September
09
Sep
2
02
2020
12:25 AM
12
12
25
AM
PDT
Kairosfocus @ 122
I have already pointed to your blood libel:
According to Wikipedia, as Mac McTavish has already pointed out, "blood libel"
... is an antisemitic canard[3][4][5] which accuses Jews of murdering Christian children in order to use their blood as part of religious rituals.[1][2][6] Historically, these claims—alongside those of well poisoning and host desecration—have been a major theme of the persecution of Jews in Europe
As far as I'm aware, we have not been discussing this medieval "fake news" story
Much like “Make America Great Again” fronting [–> notice, accusation of hiding a core agenda] for an unsavory collection [–> notice utterly imbalanced characterisation by one who doubtless would agree with “mostly peaceful protests”] of KKK, neo-Nazis, right-wing militias [–> = Nazi SA storm troopers] and Christian nationalists. [–> = Nazis]
Apart from a very few token mild denunciations, the President of the United States is apparently quite comfortable with the support of these groups, which they appear to have interpreted not unnaturally as encouragement. He has also been dropping heavy hints about rejecting the outcome of the next election should he lose and wanting to be allowed to serve a third term. Where do you think that will end? Most recently, he has been making inflammatory accusations against the media which, given the volatility of some of his supporters, is both irresponsible and highly dangerous.
It is time to walk it back.
What exactly would you like me to walk back? Are you prepared to walk back your support for a man with alarmingly autocratic tendencies?
Otherwise, we have every right to hold you responsible for incitement in aftermath of the murder of a man just standing there in Portland and a lot more besides.
I have not incited anyone to violence but it is only going to get worse while we have a man who clearly sees inflaming the situation rather than trying to cool things down as a path to re-election. He is playing with fire but other people have paid and will pay with their lives.
FYI, the national socialist german worker’s party [= nazi party] meant the worker’s party and the socialist.
I am well aware that Nazi was the common abbreviation of Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei. I think we are both aware of how the Nazis rose to power in part by exacerbating and exploiting the very real fear of the German people of social, political and economic instability and potential collapse. My parents and those of their generation had to fight in a second world war against the gangster regime of the Third Reich which followed the Nazis successful exploitation of those conditions. The real lesson to be learned is not that the Nazis were a peculiarly German phenomenon but that if it happened there it could happen anywhere, including the US. I don't think you want that any more than I do.
Fascism is statist, politically mesianistic, politics of a Nietzschean superman above law coming to rescue the aggrieved identity group in times of crisis through Roman style Dictatorship, using totalitarian statism, bringing existing institutions under ideological control through various arrangements backed up by the Gestapo or equivalent. As its history and core claims show, it is an ideology of the left, yet another revision to the marxist scheme.
It doesn't really matter whether the various "isms" are to the right or left of the political spectrum. When the checks and balances of a democratic society are swept aside the way is open for whoever is prepared to be the most ruthless and violent in their pursuit of power to seize absolute control of the state. That is the real danger here.Seversky
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
08:24 PM
8
08
24
PM
PDT
Umm, Mac, given the context it is obvious kf was talking about a "false and maliciously perpetrated accusation". Get out of the box, macET
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
05:34 PM
5
05
34
PM
PDT
KF
MMT, on a weekend where someone was just murdered for the capital crime of wearing a patriot prayer hat, such accusation loaded invidious associations are exposed as blood libel.
KF, you might want to rethink your over-the-top blusterings.
Blood Libel: an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century.
Mac McTavish
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
02:46 PM
2
02
46
PM
PDT
If something is abstract, it can’t be inside one’s brain, can it?
I believe some have argued that neuron connections would explain this. They can create exquisite colored dreams which give the appearance of being real. Any abstract concept probably resides in some neuron connections just as memories do or made up things found in dreams and stories. The story doesn’t exist on a piece of paper or sound wave but in our heads after reading it or hearing it.jerry
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
12:50 PM
12
12
50
PM
PDT
TF, If something is abstract, it can't be inside one's brain, can it? Edit: I don't believe you have a sound argument here. Consider it from the point of view of someone who claims to be a physicalist.daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
11:49 AM
11
11
49
AM
PDT
139 DaveS
I already said in #135 I don’t know the answer to that question, (where does the"darwinian theory/ abstract concept" reside) which I understand is vigorously debated by philosophers.
Darwin's brain= physical = located in space-time. "Darwinian theory" was inside Darwin's head ("brain"). (He "discovered" it). But the theory was "inside" and "outside" his brain at the same time (theories are abstract/ not physical). Materialism + darwinian theory = incompatible. Darwinian theory implies dualism.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
11:06 AM
11
11
06
AM
PDT
MMT, on a weekend where someone was just murdered for the capital crime of wearing a patriot prayer hat, such accusation loaded invidious associations are exposed as blood libel. They need to be walked back. KFkairosfocus
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:31 AM
10
10
31
AM
PDT
TF, I already said in #135 I don't know the answer to that question, which I understand is vigorously debated by philosophers. Where do you think abstract concepts are "located"?daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:24 AM
10
10
24
AM
PDT
145 DaveS
If by “beyond space and time”, you simply mean “not located in spacetime”,
If something ("darwinian theory") is "not located in space and time"; Where is it?Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:15 AM
10
10
15
AM
PDT
It has been decades of bullying, prosecuting and killing (by the MILLIONS) theists/ deists by atheists/ marxists. Ridiculed because "we believe in fairy-tales". Expelled from academia. Forced to accept "marriages" that do not exist and the also inexistent "right to kill your own defenseless children in the womb". Being denigrated and told we are "useless", nothing but "monkeys" and "bodily fluids"/ "neurochemicals". Because atheism is "cool" (although IRRATIONAL). You convert to it willingly or unwillingly. The atheist jihad.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:08 AM
10
10
08
AM
PDT
KF
It is time to walk it back. Otherwise, we have every right to hold you responsible for incitement in aftermath of the murder of a man just standing there in Portland and a lot more besides.
KF, I think you have missed Sev’s point. You can’t lump all MAGA hat wearers in with the white-supremacists, neo-Nazis, etc who wear MAGA hats. Any more than you can lump all BLM protesters in with those that loot and burn.Mac McTavish
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:03 AM
10
10
03
AM
PDT
If by "beyond space and time", you simply mean "not located in spacetime", yes. Like how Edwin Hubble discovered Hubble's Law.daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
10:00 AM
10
10
00
AM
PDT
142 DaveS
Yes, the abstract concept “Darwinian evolution” has no spacetime coordinates.
Then Darwin discovered something that is "beyond space and time".Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
09:54 AM
9
09
54
AM
PDT
140 Jerry
I believe BA77 just posted a long list of why atheism is deficient. And I agree but again it will sway very few. Beliefs are based more on emotions rather than evidence and logic.
They can choose not to believe in God. But they can no longer play the "we are the rational ones" and deists/ theists "the stupid ones". Because emotions =/= logic. Because as I always say, logic is a very demanding mistress . If you dismiss "her", she will bite you "in the rear end". Materialism has been betrayed by its own mistress. Logic dictates that materialism is A FALSE WORLDVIEW. We won.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
09:50 AM
9
09
50
AM
PDT
Yes, the abstract concept "Darwinian evolution" has no spacetime coordinates.daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
09:47 AM
9
09
47
AM
PDT
139 DaveS
I’m not a materialist. I believe abstract things, which do not have a location in space or time, do exist.
"Darwinian evolution" is an abstract concept. So according to what you wrote, "darwinian evolution" "does not have a location in space or time''.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
09:22 AM
9
09
22
AM
PDT
I can’t be certain, of course
Thesis, an omniscient God would make sure there was no certainty. Why? If there were certainty one way or the other then life would be meaningless. I posted this concept a few years ago and Kf, proceeded to go through a long discussion of why there is a God. My response to his very good analysis is that it would sway no one or probably almost no one. I believe BA77 just posted a long list of why atheism is deficient. And I agree but again it will sway very few. Beliefs are based more on emotions rather than evidence and logic. Of course once you convince someone that atheism is nonsense that does not lead to any particular creator. Deism was once popular in the world and I assume there are still a fair number. There are still some pagans too. There are also believers in other types of gods besides the Judeo/Christian God, maybe even some Manichaeans.jerry
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
09:21 AM
9
09
21
AM
PDT
TF, I'm not a materialist. I believe abstract things, which do not have a location in space or time, do exist. As I said, I don't know exactly how they exist, but I believe they are just as real as concrete things. Edit: IOW, I believe both material things, e.g., rocks, and nonmaterial things, e.g., numbers, exist. Edit 2: If it helps move things along, I believe there most likely are no gods. I can't be certain, of course.daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
08:39 AM
8
08
39
AM
PDT
135 DaveS
I believe the number 17 exists, but it’s not located anywhere. Is it?
If you are a materialist (are you?), you affirm that everything that exists is material (per definition). So you can not logically say that you believe in only material things WHILE at the same time, you also believe in no material things ("numbers''). Incoherence. If I say I am a "reddist" ("everything" is "red"). I can not say at the same time that "I am a blueist" (blue exists). Then I would be a "reddist"-"blueist". (A DUALIST). Reality would be to me "dual".Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
08:25 AM
8
08
25
AM
PDT
I believe the number 17 exists, but it’s not located anywhere. Is it?
It's a relationship. Does a cousin, mother, teacher etc exist? Examples of them do just as examples of 17 exist but they are applied to physical entities and they become 17, cousins etc only in a relationship to another entity or entities. These abstract relationships are very useful for existing in the real world if just for communication clarity or as explanations of interactions between entities.jerry
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
131
Truthfreedom: But you are speaking of it. Meaning it “exists”. (To DavidS). RHolt : That doesn’t make any sense to me. ‘We’ can talk about unicorns, vampires, werewolves, orcs, hobbits, and Sauron and according to the logic you are trying to apply these things ‘must’ exist. I think we can speak of many things that don’t.
Materialism proposes that everything that exists is material, being coded by our "neurochemicals". If our "neurochemicals" code for "fairies", then "faires" HAVE TO EXIST (because "neurochemicals" are real). But WE KNOW that "fairies" do not exist (outside our heads/ imagination). Materialism contradicts itself. According to materialism, "fairies" ("neurochemicals") both exist and not-exist at the same time. Incoherence. Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:54 AM
7
07
54
AM
PDT
TF,
But you are speaking of it. Meaning it “exists”. Meaning that it has to be located somewhere. Where?
I believe the number 17 exists, but it's not located anywhere. Is it? Anyway, I don't have an answer for how and "where" abstract entities exist. A while back I downloaded a lengthy reading list on that subject (compiled by Ted Sider) which I hope to chip away at in the years I have left, but I don't expect to come to a final answer.daveS
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:32 AM
7
07
32
AM
PDT
131 Mac Mc Tavish Ouch. Now please explain me why do I need "help". Have I done something "wrong"? (This only concerns atheists/ materialists. Theism is not incoherent: it offers an immutable foundation for morality- big 'G'). Now, Mac, answer the question.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
Mac- why are you a quote-mining loser?ET
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
TF
But you are speaking of it. Meaning it “exists”.
That doesn't make any sense to me. 'We' can talk about unicorns, vampires, werewolves, orcs, hobbits, and Sauron and according to the logic you are trying to apply these things 'must' exist. I think we can speak of many things that don't exist, e.g., alien technology found on Mars. TF
Meaning that it has to be located somewhere. Where?
So where do unicorns and hobbits exist if your premise is to be taken at face value as being true? TF
I can not, because I can not assume what you are thinking.
DaveS isn't asking you to assume you know what he is thinking. He is asking what you are thinking?RHolt
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
TF
I am in need of help.
I think this is something we can all agree on.Mac McTavish
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:26 AM
7
07
26
AM
PDT
129 DaveS
I don’t know that goodness resides anywhere.
But you are speaking of it. Meaning it "exists". Meaning that it has to be located somewhere. Where?
I assume this line of questions is leading somewhere? Perhaps you could fast-forward to the chase.
I can not, because I can not assume what you are thinking. I need to hear (read) it coming out of your mouth (typing fingers). It can't be done any other way. I am not "trolling" or being obtuse on purpose. It is a step-by-step process.Truthfreedom
September 1, 2020
September
09
Sep
1
01
2020
07:17 AM
7
07
17
AM
PDT
1 25 26 27 28 29 32

Leave a Reply