Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

BA77’s observation: “many influential people in academia simply don’t want Design to be true no matter what evidence . . .”

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The inimitable BA77 observes:

I [used] to think that if ID could only get its evidence to the right people in the right places then they would change their mind about Darwinian evolution and we would have a fundamental ‘paradigm shift’ from the ‘top down’. But after a few years of banging my head on that wall to no avail, I realized that it is not a head problem with these people so much as it is a heart problem. i.e. many influential people in academia simply don’t want Design to be true no matter what evidence you present to them. Indeed, in many educational institutions, there is a systematic effort in academia to Expel anyone who does not toe the Darwinian party line . . . . Scientists are subject to the same pride and prejudices as everyone else.,,, perhaps more so when the issues relate to their preferred worldview.

He concludes: “Thus the growth in popular support for ID has been more of a ‘bottom up’ affair.”

He cites Max Planck on the rise of new paradigms one funeral at a time:

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it . . .

Is this what we have come to?

Are we so stubborn as that in the face of the force of evidence such as the significance of the only known cause of functionally specific complex organisation and associated information [FSCO/I] and the linked isolated needles in a haystack configuration-space blind search challenge:

csi_defn

DI’s Stephen Meyer addresses much the same point in speaking to what critics of his Darwin’s Doubt seem to almost uniformly miss:

[youtube Ljy1yfGdC5Y]

Why, or why not? Kindly, explain. END

Comments
correction: the first sentence in the last post. "Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to". should be deleted from the first line and added to the title of the second citationbornagain77
August 6, 2014
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Three Subsets of Sequence Complexity and Their Relevance to To Model the Simplest Microbe in the World, You Need 128 Computers - July 2012 Excerpt: Mycoplasma genitalium has one of the smallest genomes of any free-living organism in the world, clocking in at a mere 525 genes. That's a fraction of the size of even another bacterium like E. coli, which has 4,288 genes.,,, The bioengineers, led by Stanford's Markus Covert, succeeded in modeling the bacterium, and published their work last week in the journal Cell. What's fascinating is how much horsepower they needed to partially simulate this simple organism. It took a cluster of 128 computers running for 9 to 10 hours to actually generate the data on the 25 categories of molecules that are involved in the cell's lifecycle processes.,,, ,,the depth and breadth of cellular complexity has turned out to be nearly unbelievable, and difficult to manage, even given Moore's Law. The M. genitalium model required 28 subsystems to be individually modeled and integrated, and many critics of the work have been complaining on Twitter that's only a fraction of what will eventually be required to consider the simulation realistic.,,, http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/ Biopolymeric Information - David L. Abel and Jack T. Trevors - Theoretical Biology & Medical Modelling, Vol. 2, 11 August 2005, page 8 "No man-made program comes close to the technical brilliance of even Mycoplasmal genetic algorithms. Mycoplasmas are the simplest known organism with the smallest known genome, to date. How was its genome and other living organisms' genomes programmed?" http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1742-4682-2-29.pdfbornagain77
August 6, 2014
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Rich: Pardon, but first the complexity of a cell with self replication is qualitatively of a different order from even a 747. Next, please, I described the steps you took above and in effect said, that's not enough, please be substantial. If you are a long term lurker, you will know that the approach you used is all too familiar. And, kindly re-examine the OP, the status of FSCO/I is not mere rhetoric. KFkairosfocus
August 6, 2014
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Is the humblest living cell more complex than a Jumbo Jet? rich writes at #77:
Now, if we may, can we return to your statement “And, frankly, Hoyle UNDER-estimated the challenge at OOL, for the humblest living cell is something no Jumbo Jet has ever pretended to be, a kinematic self-replicating automaton, per von Neumann’s discussion” empirically fascinating, though. May I infer from that you believe the humblest living cell has more FCSI/O than a Jumbo Jet?
And the answers is: yes, Absolutely and significantly more complex. One perspective (among others) that led to this answer is the self-replicating capability of this humblest living cell. This book: Engineering and the Ultimate has a few chapters that look empirically into how easy or how difficult would be to construct with the most advanced engineering technologies a self-replicating machine. The systematic engineering analysis in the book of what would be required to build such a machine leads to the reasoned conclusion that building a concrete, real machinery that will be able to autonomously self-replicate (as the humble cell does) is much beyond the most advanced engineering, scientific and technological capabilities of humankind. And the basic reason is that self-replicating is in essence an hugely complicated task that requires tremendous amounts of organized and structured information as well as sophisticated machinery (automatons) that are able to follow exactly the instructions in processing materials, fabricating parts, manipulating and assembling parts. There is no existing human artifact or machinery - being it a Jumbo Jet or anything else - that can compare in complexity with this hypothetical self-replicating machinery - just envisioned in the book - to mimic the known, real self-replicating capability of the most humble cell.InVivoVeritas
August 6, 2014
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We have some examples here of what reactions there are to logical information when presented. I often wonder why the anti ID people come here. They never win because they have no evidence for their position. What must it be like to be someone who obviously has deep feelings about something and cannot support a position that is essentially to their identity. We see similar tactics. First, there is the eventual angry rage after periods of politeness. Anyone remember Carl Sachs? There is the variation of this in AVS who starts off angry. Then there is the never ending avoidance of direct questions usually accompanied by politeness. Remember Bob O' who was an evolutionary biologist. There are a couple here who exhibit this behavior. There is the continual assertion of claims with no evidence. Remember Allen Fox. What happened to Allen? He was here till recently. Allen eventually understood the basic issue which was the origin of new alleles and would tell Kirk Durston he didn't know what he was talking about. Then there is the quiet exit never to be seen again. Lots of those. Of course a few eventually get banned after they become too obnoxious. And receive everlasting acclaim amongst the know nothings. Why? We have our own first hand examples that should help us address the basic point of the OP.jerry
August 6, 2014
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Hi KF, Thanks as always for taking the time to write. Addressing some of your points, the personal barbs I’ve asked you to refrain from first: “I should also note “open to be persuaded” is not good enough” – for me, it is. I’m not here to defend any position, but observe the positive case for design as exemplified by the D-FSCI/O concept. “…your behaviour of repeatedly making superficial dismissive talking points…” the intent of all my comments was to advance ID as an empirical endeavor with scientific underpinnings and not have it seen as apologetics or rhetoric. We can certainly go back and revisit them if you doubt this. I do appreciate the English spelling of ‘behaviour’, though! I think I’m fairly conversant in the issues and have read / watched the associated material with this post and have been a long time UD lurker. I’m sure any shortcomings on my part will be examined as we move forward. Now, if we may, can we return to your statement “And, frankly, Hoyle UNDER-estimated the challenge at OOL, for the humblest living cell is something no Jumbo Jet has ever pretended to be, a kinematic self-replicating automaton, per von Neumann’s discussion” empirically fascinating, though. May I infer from that you believe the humblest living cell has more FCSI/O than a Jumbo Jet? Thanks, Richrich
August 6, 2014
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“Many influential people in academia simply don’t want Design to be true no matter what evidence . . .” I would reformulate this for accuracy: “Many people (paradoxically many in academia) simply don’t want Design to be true in spite of irrefutable evidence” I think that the time came for us who understand that evolution has no grounding in reality to start giving the proper names to proper things and to strive for clarity. In essence the evolution is not even a religion, it is a superstition, a cheap gross mysticism, an invention of confused minds and souls that feel comfort in obscure and dark alleys of imagination and reject truth, light and reality. Let’s think about life, animals, insects, birds, mammals and humans. It is not that only the 21st century man understands that living organisms are of extreme complexity. That was understood by all generations who cared to think and meditate a little about the miracle of life, to the wonder of a new born being that a lamb, a bird or a child. The absolute wonder that presents to us: that from a fecundated seed a full organism grows into a wonderful copy of the body structure of its parent, that the organism learns quickly to fly – for a bird – to walk and talk – for a child is absolutely miraculous for anyone who tried to build with his hands an artifact: a toy, a car, a house, a clock or a computer program. But it is almost equally miraculous for anyone without a hands-on builder/artist (manufacturer of artifacts) experience, but just having a normal mind inclined to contemplation and curiosity. And no, you need not be a scientist to comprehend the dimensions and the overwhelming wonder of life. A peasant, a farmer, a factory worker a middle school student understand that life, the pet cat, dog or bird is on an absolutely different reality level than a doll, a car, a computer or a cell phone. As William Paley wrote 200 years ago, if we found a watch on the ground that besides its quality of showing accurately the time of day has the ability to produce little watches of its likeness, then we will rightfully be amazed by the skills of the builder of such a watch. But as we know that such a watch cannot exist, there are millions of creatures on Earth that exhibit this amazing property: to produce after mating a “baby organism” that, given the care of their parents, will grow to full likeness and to full life abilities of their parents. The understanding of the special place of the living creatures in the landscape of our world was never more evident than in the last centuries, last decades and last years – as the biology, anatomy, biochemistry, genetics, medicine, computers, software engineering and nanotechnology science and technology branches made it more and more striking and perplexing. The advancement in the last century and more so in the last decades of life sciences, biology, anatomy, cell biology and microbiology, genetics, bioinformatics consistently shows that new discoveries just reveal new and unexpected levels of complexity in the structure, organization and information present in all organisms. Let’s contrast the unending levels of complexity of life and living organisms revealed on a continuous basis with the central dogma of the evolution: The matter (yes the matter) has the intelligence and creative power that produced life and all its life forms. The most advanced scientists, technologists, physicians are not capable of creating life from scratch. They are in many respects far away even in understanding life, its inner workings, its intricate composition of coordinated systems and mechanisms, that together make up an organism. It can be stated categorically that the knowledge and creative powers needed to create life from scratch is much beyond the capabilities of the most gifted scientists, engineers and technologists. Isn’t then a gross superstition to believe that matter (yes matter with the laws of physics and chemistry and nothing else) was able to achieve the creation of life and the diversification of life? Isn’t this a dark mysticism to believe that matter gave birth to life? But as I said, isn’t this the essence of the evolution dogma? Isn’t this statement: “life was created and diversified by matter” the core belief, the credo of the evolutionists? Paraphrasing the title of a successful book I can say that “I don’t have enough faith to belief in evolution”. Isn’t much more reasonable to presume that life with its myriad forms seen in the millions of species populating the surface, the air and the waters of the Earth has an author of superior, excellent intelligence and creative power? Now to the question:
why many people (many in academia) don’t want design to be true?
I think the answer given by John Lennox in one of his lectures – may have something to do with the explanation. John Lennox received this question from the audience:
“Isn’t Christianity a delusion and a fairy tale for people afraid of dark?”
John’s answer is paraphrased below:
“Isn’t evolution a delusion and a fairy tale for people afraid of light?
InVivoVeritas
August 6, 2014
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At the provocation of kairosfocus@26, rich@33 queried:
May I infer from that you believe the humblest living cell has more FCSI/O than a Jumbo Jet?
Living cells are not humble. They are extremely busy and preoccupied. In fact, single-celled organisms are downright self-centered and arrogant because they know that they are far more complex than other cells, having gone through many orders of magnitude more evolutionary adaptation and genetic streamlining. They are completely self sufficient, the bearers of the most successful and advanced biology on the planet, and proud of it. ;-) Silver Asiatic said:
They like the darkness. Then, whatever they find supposedly “sheds light” on things. But that’s a problem because if they shed too much light, they won’t be in the darkness anymore.
Beautifully stated! I'd like to add my own observation. They like their delusion. Then, whenever, they find shards of evidence, they carefully fit it in to their mosaic, using and discarding the shards as required. kairosfocus@74, Of course the pivotal evidential issue is being studiously ignored. Facts are boring, and facts wihout a Purpose or Goal are worse than useless---they are Discordant! ;-) -QQuerius
August 5, 2014
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Onlookers, observe what is being studiously avoided by objectors, from the OP . . . the actual pivotal evidential issue. KFkairosfocus
August 5, 2014
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Jerry:
But you see they don’t have a thorough understanding. So how can they come to a rational conclusion?
I rest my case.Acartia_bogart
August 5, 2014
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Jerry, excellent points
Thanks. The book is really interesting and not that long and a great snap shot of the 1920's, Amazing decade. He tried to do the same thing with the 1930's ten years later but it did not come off as well.jerry
August 5, 2014
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So, if someone has a thorough understanding of the issues and has come to a logical and rational conclusion that these issues are not significant, how would you categorize ths?
But you see they don't have a thorough understanding. So how can they come to a rational conclusion?jerry
August 5, 2014
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Jerry, excellent points in your post @60. It was worth a second read.StephenB
August 5, 2014
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wd400 #63 'With all these dark muttering about “materialism” and atheism being an enemy: have any of you stopped to wonder why so many religious people accept evolutionary biology. Wide spread opposition to evolution is only really a phenomenon in the US and Turkey among developed nations, so why do so many religious people in other cultures have little problem with the idea?' -------------- Because it doesn't conflict with mainstream religions, and only scientists are bothered about the science. Moreover, the Catholic church would know about the totalitarian grip on employment and funding prospects in Academia that the World, aka materialism exerted even in the first part of the 20th century, when the great ID and deistic/theistic physicists were transforming physics so radically. They learnt the power of atheist mendacity from the Galileo affair, and would feel it improper to leave the faith vulnerable to controversies of no direct relevance to the faith. God has infinite power and artistry, so He doesn't need to impress, but, as a matter of fact, if He did, divinely-directed evolution would appear to be a greater tribute to that power and artistry. But, present company excepted, most of the bods on here are scientists in good faith, and as such, the issue is of immense importance.Axel
August 5, 2014
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That's an interesting report. I didn't read all of it but I think I got enough to conclude that there's a lot of confusion about evolution in the UK. It could be a problem with the survey but I think the existence of this group aimed at "Rescuing Darwin" as well as the difficulty that anybody has in defining how a religious/evolutionary interface actually works leaves the public confused. To answer your question about religious people and evolution, they take the theistic evolution point of view. But defining theistic evolution is a difficult challenge. The report gives this:
Theistic Evolution is the idea that evolution is the means that God used for the creation of all living things on earth.
That's what the religious people who don't have a problem with evolution believe. But have they really thought about it? God used a blind, natural process that has no purpose or direction based essentially on the occurrence of random mutations to create all living things? It doesn't make a lot of sense. It's also contradictory to claim that the mutations are both random and also "used by God for the creation of all living things". So, I think the first answer is that religious people don't really think about their own belief in evolution that much. For example, from the same report:
Intelligent Design is the idea that evolution alone is not enough to explain the complex structures of some living things, so the intervention of a designer is needed at key stages.
But this is not really different from theistic evolution. Since "God used evolution to create", then the intervention of a designer was needed in the process. The TE could say "God wasn't needed". But that sounds a lot like this:
11. Atheistic Evolution is the idea that evolution makes belief in God unnecessary and absurd.
Or they could say that God doesn't intervene, but how is God necessary and how does "God use evolution to create" without intervening? There's some philosophical sleight-of-hand that people can use to get around those problems, but the average person, or even religious leaders (and even scientists themselves), don't really think about it to that depth. Evolutionary ideas, as presented by mainstream science, are a materialist story of origins. There's no place for God's influence. If there was, then God would have to be considered a factor in the process and we know that doesn't happen. I don't think it's because people are ignorant either. The real problem is that the evolutionary story is so hopelessly confused that even biologists don't know what it claims. So people cling to the basic evolutionary claims about mutations and natural selection and fossil evidence and a tree of life where everything fits in its proper place. But that story is so twisted by now that even die-hard evolutionists struggle to explain it.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2014
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Jerry @64:
Their understanding of the real issues is non-existent.
So, if someone has a thorough understanding of the issues and has come to a logical and rational conclusion that these issues are not significant, how would you categorize ths? How come I get the feeling that you would simply conclude that they don't have a thorough understanding of he issues?Acartia_bogart
August 5, 2014
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Yes, I know, but that article is terrible writing on top of bad reporting of top of a pretty average survey. You can see the full report here: campaigndirector.moodia.com/Client/Theos/Files/FaithandDarwin.pdf In which it is reveled less than 20% of respondents felt evolution had little or not support (many of the results seem contradictory -- but that's largely about how poorly the questions where framed).wd400
August 5, 2014
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Recent news item ... Indeed, as reported by the UK’s Guardian; Half of Britons do not believe in evolution, survey finds (Riazat Butt, February 1, 2009 AD) and Teach both evolution and creationism say 54% of Britons (Jessica Shepherd, October 25, 2009 AD). http://www.examiner.com/article/why-do-half-of-britons-not-believe-evolutionSilver Asiatic
August 5, 2014
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Wide spread opposition to evolution is only really a phenomenon in the US and Turkey among developed nations, so why do so many religious people in other cultures have little problem with the idea?
Two reasons, first, they do not understand the issues. I have debated them in several places. Their understanding of the real issues is non-existent. They understand the basic presentation of naturalistic evolution and since there is no other mechanism except natural selection proffered, they accept it. They have no conception that natural selection is bogus as a source of innovation. Second, many have a commitment to a naturalistic approach for two reasons, (1) it illustrates the effort of an all powerful God who could set everything in motion from the beginning and (2) somehow they rationalize that it lets this all powerful God off the hook for natural evil. This last is silly but many point to it.jerry
August 5, 2014
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With all these dark muttering about "materialism" and atheism being an enemy: have any of you stopped to wonder why so many religious people accept evolutionary biology. Wide spread opposition to evolution is only really a phenomenon in the US and Turkey among developed nations, so why do so many religious people in other cultures have little problem with the idea?wd400
August 5, 2014
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Axel, it is grim, and yes we face two tidal waves, one within our civilisation, the other from IslamISM, of which ISIS/IS is only the most obvious manifestation. 100 years to the day from WWI began, we have not learned. KF PS: Yes, there is a due balance to life and we should try to meet the needs of those in our families and communities and help in the larger world. Energy, biotech, ubiquitous computing, nanotech, More that I don't remember offhand waiting on clients. We need to build a better future but are ever so prone to forget the past.kairosfocus
August 5, 2014
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Interesting post, KF. Your caliphate warnings seems increasingly well-founded, don't they? I expect the US has plans for them, not to put too fine a point on it. Well, I think it was a combination of the two, KF. Sound assumptions, after all ratify the aptitude of a person's intelligence, don't they? It would be no good having the extraordinary technical intelligence of you, Cornelius, Vincent and several others (the sight of which often leaves me dumbfounded), if your fundamental assumptions disembogued from a stream and then a river of folly, into an ocean of ever greater folly, as very much tends to obtain with our simian, materialist friends. That intelligence, that mind, would end up more like a trip-wire than a steel trap, wouldn't it? As regards the poor being always with us, I think it is dangerous not to view it in its context. All Christ was saying, I believe, was that, while the debt we owe of justice and charity to the poor always presses on us, we cannot stop the day-to-day functioning of the world to exclusively concentrate on it. We'd still have to feed ourselves and our families, hold birthday parties and give each other presents, and so on. St Basil remarks that we shouldn't drape the interior of our church with sumptuous curtains/drapes and other opulent paraphernalia, when we see Christ cold and shivering outside the church, ostensibly, in the person of a beggar, any more than we should bow to a statue of a ruler, when in the rulers living presence. He'd think he was being mocked. But Basil then went on to say, care for the destitute, living Christ first, and then ornament the church as ornately and beautifully as possible. However, Basil was merely reiterating the scriptural truth that we must love our neighbour whom we can see, or any expression of love for the God we cannot see, will be devoid of all value in god's eyes. In the gospel incident, however, Mary Magdalene was honouring the God, the Christ, she DID see - before her eyes, and in his own person. Destitute or not, the reality of our own identity in Christ resides precisely in HIS own indwelling Spirit within us. He is all in all. Who was Judas or anyone else to suggest that Mary Magdalene would not have been and would not continue to be as generous to Christ in the poor as she was to him in his own person as the incarnate God; mutatis mutandis, in the sense that the incarnation of Christ, the Son of God, and his acceptance of torture and death for us all was a one-off occurrence, and merited very generous and special gifts, her large very costly jar of nard, and her washing his feet with her tears and wiping them with her hair. Any thoughts now on the caliphate business, KF?Axel
August 5, 2014
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I believe it is in his book, "Losing Ground" that Charles Murray describes how societies are influenced by hidden elites. They are well known to the ruling class in Washington and other power centers but not to the general public. They set the agenda for the War on a Poverty in the 1960's which led to many of the economic and social debacles that followed because of government planning. Similarly we are influenced as a society by similar elites on evolution. Here it is the school systems that are influenced and the result is the attitudes of those at the wedding reception I was at or the people I tried to engage over the years. My guess is that we are on a Titanic, headed for some iceberg and it will only be the collision that will make people reevaluate the world. Let me give an example. In 1930 someone wrote a book about the most remarkable decade of the 20th century, called "Only Yesterday." It was birds eye view of the 1920's from about as close as you can get. One amazing observation was that women's dresses went from barely showing the leg at the ankle in 1920 to where dresses were above the knee by 1927 and women were drinking and smoking in public. This represented the quickest social change in the history of mankind. But then came the depression and people became very conservative again. And that attitude persisted for several decades. It might take a similar reevaluation before materialism gets a hard look. Right now the elite and those just below them are thriving and there is no reason to examine alternatives closely. Charles Murray also wrote in a recent book how the US and other Western countries are stratifying along educational and economic means. The higher level of this stratification are the ones who have to be convinced. But these are the most influenced by the hidden elites.jerry
August 5, 2014
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And ironically the projection of irrationality is in fact a turnabout fallacy, especially given that evolutionary materialism is demonstrably self referentially incoherent.
Interesting point. Self-referential because it can't appeal to an external standard for validation. Incoherent because categories of truth and falsehood have utility only as a survival advantage and are therefore relative and arbitrary.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2014
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PS: Let's remind ourselves from JBS Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. ]
zip, zip, zip . . . craaack!kairosfocus
August 5, 2014
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Jerry & SA: You are describing the manifestations of an entrenched prejudice, one that remains "acceptable" as it fits the agenda of the key power elites. And ironically the projection of irrationality is in fact a turnabout fallacy, especially given that evolutionary materialism is demonstrably self referentially incoherent. But in an era that prides itself on non-conformism and anti-elitism, the deference to the lab coat clad evolutionary materialist ideologues in the academy is obvious. KFkairosfocus
August 5, 2014
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Jerry 52, you make some excellent points. One of the central problems we face is that the vast majority of people have a very superficial level of knowledge about evolution. Thus, they have no clue that there is even a debate. At most they've heard that you must believe in rational science or irrational religion. On the cruise I mentioned to my son-in-law about the presentation on how cetaceans cool their testes to keep their sperm viable, a big task for something that keeps them inside the body. A special system pumps blood up to the fin, where it is cooled, and then down to the testes. Remarkable, and, of course necessary to build in the putative transition from land critter to sea critter. His response was a dismissive, "well, of course they have such a system, otherwise they wouldn't survive!" For him, the fact that neo-Darwinism explains survival of the fittest means it also explains arrival of the fittest. He doesn't doubt the creative powers of evolution, no matter how outlandish the claims may be, because he already has an explanation at hand. We have a long long way to go...anthropic
August 5, 2014
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Everybody was having fun but I bet if you started a conversation with anyone about evolution or its implication with any of them away from the wedding, they would have looked at you like you had three heads and was some kind of weirdo. I have done it about a dozen times over the years and each time, I get the same reaction. You are looked at as if you are a nut.
LOL - agreed. I've tried to gently open up conversations like that with similar people and that's the reaction I got. I learned to avoid it. Academia has this topic locked-down very tightly. Non-biologists will hear that evolutionary theory offers a very high degree of certainty. ID is thought of as something like horoscopes or tarot card reading if they have even heard of it at all.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2014
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Atheists prefer stumbling around in the dark because of the awesome sense of wonder they derive when they finally do manage to stumble across something.
They like the darkness. Then, whatever they find supposedly "sheds light" on things. But that's a problem because if they shed too much light, they won't be in the darkness anymore. So, the best things they can find will make the darkness darker. Their friends will give the highest praise to those kinds of discoveries. Any discovery that actually sheds light on the truth about reality is considered an embarrassment. If they stumble into that they have to apologize and make sure to cover it back up again.Silver Asiatic
August 5, 2014
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06:13 AM
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Jerry: Pardon, but the OP is on the attitude problem in the face of pivotal evidence. That's why I made sure to highlight a summary of a key infographic and a video in which Meyer makes the point that typically the merits are being dodged by objectors. I am pretty sure we will not persuade ever so many people, but the interesting issue is, why in the face of the issue on the merits. Perhaps I am old fashioned to say this, but I think there is such a thing as an individual duty of care to face evidence and come to terms with evident truth regardless of what is the ideology of the day. In my day, that was Marxism, when I was a student, and I openly stood up to the marxists . . . eventually, all they could do was to threaten me and try to turn a crowd on me. Backfired. And in that regard the most remarkable thing about this thread is the utter silence on FSCO/I and the inference to design in that light. If there were ironclad rebuttals the usual champions of the anti-ID cause would be here blazing away with full 15" broadsides on rapid fire. The silence on the pivotal merits is indeed confirming the point Meyer made to Anthropic et al on that cruise . . . the gig is up on the merits, THERE IS NO EVOLUTIONARY MATERIALIST MECHANISM THAT ADEQUATELY -- PER CANONS OF INDUCTIVE REASONING -- ACCOUNTS FOR THE FUNCTIONALLY SPECIFIC COMPLEX ORGANISATION AND ASSOCIATED INFORMATION IN CELL BASED LIFE. The only empirically and analytically credible causal explanation is design; not, design of the gaps but design as empirically and analytically well warranted cause, familiar from our own experience of the world manifested in a reliable sign. And, if I am wrong on this, let us simply hear the answer from the Darwinists and fellow travellers on the merits. KFkairosfocus
August 5, 2014
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06:04 AM
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