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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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A plumbline
A plumbline tells whether a wall is true (straight) and plumb (accurately vertical)

It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

[youtube UQfRdl3GTw4]

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
PPS: Wiki, on principle of explosion, is helpful: >> As a demonstration of the principle, consider two contradictory statements - “All lemons are yellow” and "Not all lemons are yellow", and suppose (for the sake of argument) that both are simultaneously true. If that is the case, anything can be proven, e.g. "Santa Claus exists", by using the following argument:
a] We know that "All lemons are yellow" as it is defined to be true. b] Therefore the statement that (“All lemons are yellow" OR "Santa Claus exists”) must also be true, since the first part is true. c] However, if "Not all lemons are yellow" (and this is also defined to be true), Santa Claus must exist -
otherwise statement 2 would be false. It has thus been "proven" that Santa Claus exists. The same could be applied to any assertion, including the statement "Santa Claus does not exist". >>kairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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PS: From the false, anything follows [in the logical sense], or from the contradiction, anything [true or false] follows. That is, reasoning on the false or the contradictory [which is necessarily false], will be unreliable.kairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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MF: Pardon, I am actually giving a tribute to prof Harald Neiderriter of Austria, who first taught me mathematics in Uni. The cite was for him a bit of a motto. Second, a non-existent number is a contradiction in terms. Something like a square circle necessarily does not exist because its defining attributes stand in mutual contradiction. The objectivity of MY #1 was already discussed above in a few sentences. Boiling down, the rejection of the conscience -- a major facility of mind -- as generally delusive fatally undermines mind, as there are no firewalls in our world of thought. We have no more reason to suppose the conscience in general to be delusive than our sense of seeing, hearing and conscious awareness. And if we start by assigning any major feature of the mind to being a general delusion, we run into a cascade of Plato's cave shadow shows all the way down. Reducing mind to absurdity. Instead, we properly understand that our conscious mindedness allows us to access reality, and that while we may and do err, we can and do also find out our errors step by step. Further, the fundamental point in MY #1, is that we see a child such as we once were, vulnerable, unable to argue effectively with a monster such as the predator Nero, easily taken captive and despoiled then destroyed. And, our consciences SCREAM, should we encounter such in progress: evil, violation of that which is of quasi-infinite worth with the same rights as we have, intervene NOW! I have no more reason to treat the screaming conscience as delusional than the eyes and ears that tell me that evil is in progress, or the experiences and resulting awareness that I have legs and arms and hands and maybe a cell phone to call help even as I rush in to do whatever I can and must. When duty calls for danger, may I never be [found] wanting there. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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KF
For such a system is always suspect on its claims, ex falso quodlibet or equivalently ex contradictione sequitur quodlibet.
Please don't use jargon. This is a blog not a course in the history of philosophy. I last did Latin in 1966 - I suspect many readers never did it at all. I still see no answer to two challenges: * Tell me of a number (or idea, proposition, belief, or philosophy) that does not exist. * Explain how you get from MY #1 to "moral truths are objective" (preferably in a few English sentences).Mark Frank
December 8, 2013
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MF: Pardon, but:
* Having children is a joy * I approve of people communicating with each other * The advancement of knowledge is a valuable thing
. . . while subjectively experienced [as are all experiences!], are also objective. Taking just the last, over the past century sand has moved from being building material to being the substrate for the ICT industry based on advances in physics, chemistry and materials science etc, as well as in relevant Mathematics. Similarly, in a world of the challenge of Plato's cave [I think here about the man coming back in from outside and being challenged], the sheer numbers who agree or disagree with an entity or claim, are of no consequence on whether or not the thing is true or right. Relativism fails, including the tyranny of the 51% as manipulated by the shadow shows put on by the media, their favoured politicians, and the education elites. We have to assess on good reason, starting with first principles of right reason and other self evident truths we access through our experience and understanding of the world. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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MF: Before asserting a materialist case one first needs to ground that materialism has any coherence in the face of the issue of evident self-referential incoherence. For such a system is always suspect on its claims, ex falso quodlibet or equivalently ex contradictione sequitur quodlibet. Numbers, major cases of abstract entities, are sufficiently real that they exert causal effects, here, in absence of the right matched numbers of chromosomes and of parents, an on/off enabling condition cannot be met and reproduction fails. Either fails absolutely, no offspring or fails by the mule effect. More broadly, you are doubtless aware of the power of numbers in physical reality. Including, complex ones, which are actually 2-d vectors with a useful notation. That notation is linked to the point that if we define an i*[] operator such that on applying twice we reverse a vector in the plane, i*[] takes the definition sqrt-[1]. That is, start with 1 the tip of the vector from 0 to 1 on the x-axis. Next, do: i*i*1 = -1. Thus i*i = -1 Or, i = sqrt[-1] Thus, i, though termed imaginary, is as real as we need for many things. In effect i*x rotates the position vector 0x through a right angle anticlockwise; which opens up a whole world of study of oscillations and transients. Indeed, complex numbers are at least as real as negative numbers are! (Ever owed anybody something? Pay up and you see that x + [-x] = 0.] Just, i is conceptually difficult. (But then, I speak as one who for years at a time lived more in the complex frequency-transient behaviour Laplace domain than in the time-domain world we walk about in.) Now of course, we are embodied, self-aware, conscious thinking, reasoning, knowing beings; so indeed we do root our conceptual spaces in concrete experiences and abstractions therefrom. That does not mean that our access to abstract domains is a fiction, suspect of delusion at every turn. No more than our conscious experience is a fiction, suspect of delusion at every turn. That is, I again point out that conscious mindedness has no firewalls in it. If we assign general delusive-ness to any major feature, there is a spreading fire of absurdity, a cascade to infinity of Plato's cave worlds. Reduction to absurdity, in short. Instead, we have every good reason to see that we are able to abstract from the concrete to the world of objects accessed through thought, including things like love, natural numbers and their extensions, propositions, triangles, circles, spheres, ellipsoids, laws of nature [which are often quantitative], the world of Mathematics, information and the like. Not perfectly, of course -- for indubitably error exists [as shown by applying the principle of self evidence!], but with sufficient reliability, effectiveness and accuracy that there is excellent reason to routinely accept and make good use of their reality as entities, distinct from the concrete objects that we must also -- nay, can only also -- experience through our conscious mindedness. Nor should we forget that through hypothetical reasoning and modelling, we can use that world of abstract thought-objects to shape the world of physical, experienced objects. That for instance is how the computer you are using to read this came to be. But also, kindly note that it is not just numbers that I have again pointed to but the underlying sets and their ability to collect even abstract entities, in absence of any reference to a physical world as such. The Royce proposition E = error exists, is in the end, a statement about sets: there is an entity x such that the set that collects errors, R, contains x. That is all we need, we need no onward speculation about a world of forms or the like, just that there is obviously a world of thought that we share enough in common to intelligibly discuss it. As this thread of discussion exemplifies, in it s course exhibiting the reality of information and the fact that this abstract entity is sufficiently real for us to measure it in bits etc. KF [slightly edited]kairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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KF A reminder that I accepted that MY #1 was true. I just challenge that it follows that it is an objective truth. You still have not bridged that gap. You made the curious statement that subjective is not the opposite of objective. I don't accept this, but I can easily adjust my argument to by-pass the issue. I offer examples of assertions that are not objective and: a) would be accepted by the vast majority of people and societies - much more widely than "error exists"! b) if sincerely denied by the majority of people would lead to chaos and breakdown of society To remind you the examples were: * Having children is a joy * I approve of people communicating with each other * The advancement of knowledge is a valuable thingMark Frank
December 8, 2013
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RB: It is sad to see you blindly repeating the already corrected. First, show us a sign that you have seriously addressed the square of opposition, and the distinction between the I-form and its contradictory, which is an E-form. (Note, this still holds even through the modern interpretation where universal quantification is not held to have existential import.) Second, let us focus on the simple, obvious point made by ~E, the denial of E: it is an ERROR to think or assert that error exists. Oops. The point is made right there, on common good sense. Now too, you were trying to make an argument that boils down to that because E = error exists meets the criteria for a self-evident truth it is not self evident. Let's zoom in a bit, clipping and augmenting the OP:
of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things. That is, a SET is: a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists {--> this boils down to saying that there is at least one entity x, such that the set that collects errors, R, has x as a member.}) b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists {--> start from red X's in Miss Jones' class in elementary school, and understand that "error" denotes the collective for things like that}) c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest {--> as seen, the attempted denial is in effect to say it is an ERROR to assert or think that error exists.)
Error exists is patently undeniably and self evidently true. With corollaries that the reality exists that we may be in error about, truth exists as that which accurately describes features of that reality, knowledge exists as even warranted, true beliefs, observed facts of experience [Miss Jones' red X's on our sums] can accurately correspond to reality, and more, much more. So much the worse for worldviews and ideologies that do not sit comfortably with such. And it seems clear to me that this is the root problem. (Especially when one raises the spectre of MORAL self evident truths starting from MY #1 and corollaries then highlight that a world like that demands a foundational IS that can adequately ground OUGHT. Not to mention, that the objectionable reality of evil then points onwards to the reality of good, and the need for a similar ground of good.) KF PS: On the problem of evil, I think one would be well advised to examine at least a 101 on Plantinga's free will defense and Boethius' observation.kairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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KF - numbers are not I think ideas, propositions, beliefs or philosophies. Nevertheless I have a similar concern about what it means to say a number exists. You are right that at the heart of this is your belief that there are transcendental things which are not just sophisticated ways of talking about the material world. It is part of the materialist case that in the end you cannot say anything meaningful about these supposed transcendental things without relating it back to the material and observable. So when you say one of these things "exists" it is empty statement unless you mean that thing is manifested in some material way. I offer you a similar challenge to the one I offered SB. Give me an example of a number that does not exist. The closest you can get to it is something like the square root of minus one. But of course mathematicians have a trick for this which is to define a number which is the square root of minus one.Mark Frank
December 8, 2013
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MF: It seems your objections to SB on the reality of error pivot on the underlying assumption you have of materialism. That begs big questions, and opens up the self referential incoherence and absurdity of materialism. But following that up in detail is not necessary for this exchange. A simple comparison is enough (one already pointed out but ignored): numbers and their properties and relationships. There is no more of reification -- AmHD: reify: To regard or treat (an abstraction) as if it had concrete or material existence -- or whatever modified version therof in style today in saying that error exists than in saying that 2, 3, 5 and the truth 2 + 3 = 5 all exist. Or, the natural numbers. If you are prepared to say numbers have no sufficient reality or intelligibility apart from people thinking of them -- which is absurd, we have needed matched numbers of chromosomes and two parents to get to a child that is viable for reproduction, for a very long time, on your known view hundreds of millions of years before man existed -- then you would at least be consistent. But I am sure you are not prepared to toss overboard numbers and basic arithmetic etc. Similarly, numbers do not depend for intelligibility or sufficient reality to make sense and be useful in any way on the existence of a physical world of concrete objects. We can see this by starting conceptually from the set that collects nothing, { } and then reasoning from { } --> 0, to {0} --> 1 to {0,1} --> 2 etc to create the whole world of mathematics, cf the outline in 113 above in this very thread. That something is a valid entity or is sufficiently real or at least intelligible and conceivable to be discussed and thought about does not equate to it must be a concrete physical entity or that it must be computed per some algorithmic process or the like on a physical substrate. To insist on that is to beg huge worldview level questions, and to run into endless difficulties with the inescapable incoherence of materialism, as Haldane pointed out long ago, echoing Leibnitz in his analogy of the mill:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
As Searle's Chinese Room shows, insightful reasoned thought is not the same as blind material processing by computing an algorithm of step by step actions. Without intelligent and insightful organisation of such we have no good reason to rely on such. As the problems with Pentiums and arithmetic processing leading to recalls showed. Rocks have no dreams and GIGO-limited computation solely based on rocks have no rationality beyond that of the designers of the programs either. (As to the notion that complex functional and reliable software beyond 500 - 1,000 bits of complexity can assemble itself blindly out of step by step filtered noise, the most charitable thing that can be said of that is, we will believe it when you kindly provide a good demonstration.) Getting back on the focal issue in contention, remember ~E boils down to being a claim that it is an ERROR to think or assert that error exists. Yes, the descent into absurdity on trying to deny E -- error exists -- is as swift and patent as that, right in the assertion ~E. Where also, the fundamental meaning of E is, that there is at least one entity x, such that the set that collects errors, R, is non-empty. That is there is at least one x such that it is a member of R. A set is an abstract entity, yes. One that is foundational to modern practice of mathematics, emphatically, yes. So, either you surrender the "meaningless" objection, or let go of the world of mathematics. Unless you are willing to be selectively hyperskeptical. (And BTW, that "meaningless" claim is suspiciously like the old logical positivist assertion of the verification principle that unless something is analytic or subject to empirical observational test/verification it is meaningless, which has been overturned as irretrievably self referentially incoherent long since.) At this stage, what is emerging, is that there is something that is powerful about the reality of self evident truths, so powerful and hitting so close to home for a priori Lewontinian evolutionary materialism that we see the sort of desperate, scorched earth resistance we are seeing above. A good sign for the importance of the point, and for insisting on hammering it home. And that holds double for the actual main emphasis in the OP above: MORAL self evident truths starting with MY #1 and its corollaries. KFkairosfocus
December 8, 2013
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#359 SB You would seem to be all alone. For centuries, theologians, philosophers, and ethicists have discussed problems inherent in the fact that evil exists. Even those who deny the existence of evil, know what the phrase “evil exists” means. Why did you omit my subsequent sentence: If someone else did phrase it that way I would understand them as meaning people do evil things therefore God does not exist. What is the point in misquoting me when the words are right here on the same thread.Mark Frank
December 8, 2013
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MF: How can I meet it more directly than showing where you have treated an abstract entity as something concrete (by asserting it exists)? SB: Are you even trying to be serious? You can stop leaving out the definitive word, “physical.”
You left it out when you wrote: “or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea”. 
SB: Equally important, I have defined error several times as a false idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy. You claim that I said it was more than an idea or concept when, in fact, I defined it as an idea or concept. Much less did I define error as a physical or material object. You are wrong on every count.
I know you defined it that way. I did not claim you said it was more than an idea or concept. My point was not about the definition of error but about the use of “exists”. If you ascribe the predicate “exists” to an idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy (false or otherwise) the only meaning that “exists” can have is that someone has held that idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy (and as I have a materialist philosophy of mind that is a physical claim).  If you disagree, then please provide an example of an idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy that does not exist in your sense.Mark Frank
December 7, 2013
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StephenB: “Many have tried to argue, for example, that “evil exists, therefore God does not exist.” Indeed they have Stephen, many times. But if God does not exist there can be no transcendent objective moral standard. Therefore, the word “evil” means nothing more than “that which I do not prefer.” If we take the argument and substitute the definition for the word we get: “That which I do not prefer exists. Therefore God does not exist.” The conclusion does not seem to follow logically from the premise.Barry Arrington
December 7, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
These are examples of reification that, while attributing misplaced reality to abstractions, do not attribute concreteness in the sense of a physical reality.
Reification has a formal meaning [and an official definition] of unjustificably elevating (or downgrading) abstractness to the level of physical concreteness. That is what it means. Some have tried to informalize the definition to mean the attribution of existence to something that doesn't really exist, but that definition often gets confused and conflated with tropes and other manifestations of picturesque language. Neither of the latter two has anything to do with abstractness and concreteness, which is the central core of reification. However, even if I were to grant the informal definition arguendo, it would not bear on this discussion. Ideas and concepts, unlike "momentum" and "team spirit" are real things. Ideas, concepts, and philosophies have consequences. They change lives. Reifications are mere dramatizations of real things that have consequences: Creativity, for examaple, is real; "brainstorming" is its reification. Clearly, there is such a thing as creativity, but there really is no such thing as a brainstorm. The former is abstract, the latter is the former having been made concrete. In similar fashion, truth, error, evil, and goodness exist and are not reifications. At the same time, each can be described in more dramatic reified terms. That, by the way, is the real problem with the informal definition of reification. It is, at times, scarcely distinguishable from metaphor, metonymy, and synbecdoche. No such problem exists with the formal definition. With respect to my argument, I have already defined error as false ideas, concepts, propositions, and philosophies. As indicated previously, each can be described in more dramatic, reified terms. Nevertheless, each is real and each says something about the real world. Many have tried to argue, for example, that "evil exists, therefore God does not exist." While I disagree with that conclusion, there can be no doubt that evil does, in fact, exist.StephenB
December 7, 2013
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You have to show where I treated error as a “concrete, physical entity.
I haven't been able to get to this topic, but I will. But, briefly, "physical" isn't a necessary component of reification (literal physicality may be involved - but it is hard to think of an example. Perhaps reifying the collective behavior of an ant colony as a super-organism and the Gaia hypotheses reflect inappropriate physical reifications). It is the unjustified attribution of "reality" to an abstraction that is key. An classic example of reification: A baseball team plays with an exceptional degree of camaraderie, enthusiasm, coordination and mutual loyalty and support. By way of description we might say that the players have have “team spirit.” But to attribute to “team spirit” causal efficacy above and beyond the sum of the camaraderie, enthusiasm, coordination and mutual loyalty and support is to reify it - to inappropriately attribute to "team spirit" a reality beyond the qualities from which it is abstracted. A similar reification in sports is that of “momentum.” When one team outplays another they “have the momentum,” as though there is a mysterious inertia to the game above and beyond the play and enthusiam of the players. One or two plays later, should the other team attain success (say, a pick-6 in foot ball) not only do the score and circumstances of the game shift, so does the “momentum.” But there is no causally efficatious “momentum” above and beyond the skill, effort and luck of the players. Momentum is a reification. Gilbert Ryle famously argued that the notion of "mind" reflected an inappropriate reification of individual actions and behavioral dispositions, such as the ability to speak, remember, behave, reason, etc. Obviously he was not saying that "mind" was being conferred an inappropriate physical reality - in fact the physical - nonphysical factor went the other direction - from physical particulars an abstracted commonality that is conferred a non-physical reality above and beyond the physical particulars from which it is inferred. These are examples of reification that, while attributing misplaced reality to abstractions, do not attribute concreteness in the sense of a physical reality.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2013
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SB: "Now show me how I used the word “error” as if were a concrete, physical entity, or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea." Mark Frank
These are the exact words of your challenge in #325.
You bet they are.
How can I meet it more directly than showing where you have treated an abstract entity as something concrete (by asserting it exists)?
Are you even trying to be serious? You can stop leaving out the definitive word, "physical." Did you even read the quote that you cited. You have to show where I treated error as a "concrete, physical entity. My whole point is that it exists even though it is not physical. From Latin res thing + facere to make, reification = thing-making; the turning of something abstract into a concrete thing or object. In reification, concreteness is synonymous with making a physical or material object. Obviously, I did not do that. Equally important, I have defined error several times as a false idea, concept, proposition, or philosophy. You claim that I said it was more than an idea or concept when, in fact, I defined it as an idea or concept. Much less did I define error as a physical or material object. You are wrong on every count.StephenB
December 7, 2013
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Mark Frank
I would never phrase that as “evil exists, therefore God does not exist”.
You would seem to be all alone. For centuries, theologians, philosophers, and ethicists have discussed problems inherent in the fact that evil exists. Even those who deny the existence of evil, know what the phrase "evil exists" means.StephenB
December 7, 2013
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SB #355
You said that you wanted to step in and answer for Reciprocting Bill. Please do what you said that you will do, or else say that you can’t do it. Then, we can move on.
Well now - this is the challenge
Now show me how I used the word “error” as if were a concrete, physical entity, or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea.
These are the exact words of your challenge in #325. How can I meet it more directly than showing where you have treated an abstract entity as something concrete (by asserting it exists)? You might want to dispute that this counts as treating it as a concrete entity - but I cannot see how you think I am not addressing the challenge - I am following it almost word for word.Mark Frank
December 7, 2013
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SB
Let’s put your claim to the test: Does evil exist? Is that a meaningless statement? Is the atheist/agnostic argument “evil exists, therefore God does not exist” meaningless?
That’s easy. I would argue that people do evil things, which is a problem for an omnipotent benign God. I would never phrase that as “evil exists, therefore God does not exist”. If someone else did phrase it that way I would understand them as meaning people do evil things therefore God does not exist. If you want to claim ideas exist in any sense other than people having them give me one example of an idea that does not exist. Clearly you can’t. It is a meaningless predicate when applied to ideas in the abstract.Mark Frank
December 7, 2013
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Mark
I am saying that when you wrote (A) you were using the word “error” in a way that implied it was not merely an idea. If you want to call that reification is up to you. I am merely responding to your challenge (B).
It wasn't my term. It was Reciprocating Bill's term, and you agreed to defend him on that basis.
Just asserting that something exists is to assert that it is not merely an idea.
You just contradicted yourself. Ideas exist. That doesn't make them more than they are. Concepts exist. That doesn't make them more than they are.
To say that an idea exists is meaningless unless all you mean is that one or more people have had that idea – which you have repeatedly said is not what you mean when it comes to errors.
Let's put your claim to the test: Does evil exist? Is that a meaningless statement? Is the atheist/agnostic argument "evil exists, therefore God does not exist" meaningless?StephenB
December 7, 2013
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Mark Frank:
I am saying that when you wrote (A) you were using the word “error” in a way that implied it was not merely an idea.
You said that you wanted to step in and answer for Reciprocting Bill. Please do what you said that you will do, or else say that you can't do it. Then, we can move on.StephenB
December 7, 2013
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KF:
As noted, E being true is in fact independent of the status of propositions as a class...that makes E true...
Which makes it evidently true, not self-evidently true. That is no help to your efforts to demonstrate an instance of a self-evidently true proposition.
The denial is a universal that takes in all propositions including itself. That is how it is self referential...But in addition E is such that the attempted denial, refutes itself.
The denial is self-referential, as I have consistently asserted. Which characterizes the following argument, oft repeated:
That is, a SET is: … c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)
This generates a paradox due to a self-referential short circuit. I'm not persuaded that in so doing you have shown anything self-evidently true about the world.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2013
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RB: Pardon,, but you still have not paid adequate attention to the square of opposition. The actual contradictories are such that one is particular, there is at least one entity x that is an error. The denial is a universal that takes in all propositions including itself. That is how it is self referential. But despite your strained attempts, the former is not. Just because you imagine or assert it does not make it so. And the self evidence of E emerges as the denial ~E turns to be self referential [it implies there are no erroneous propositions], where it itself is such. The conjunction [E AND ~E] is false and an error, so also the denial ~E is an error. Thus, the criteria for self evidence are met: E is true, it is seen as true on understanding what it says, and the attempted denial immediately falls into error. (Your attempt just now to argue that the actual reason why E is self evident somehow makes it not so, would be laughable, if it were not sad. You need to ask yourself why you find yourself clutching at such straws to try to reject the prospect of self-evident truth.) Your earlier attempt to project that because the denial of E is self referential, E must also be so, is false as well -- as was shown. As noted, E being true is in fact independent of the status of propositions as a class. The errors of protein synthesis -- which come before any human being was able to observe them -- are just that, errors. But in addition E is such that the attempted denial, refutes itself. That makes E true, and necessarily true on pain of absurdity coming out of attempted denial. E, error exists, is self evident. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2013
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KF:
Error exists is particular, the denial is a universal negative as the relevant diagonal will immediately show. It is the latter that entails there are no false propositions or assertions and is therefore self referential as it is a proposition.
My emphasis Don't you see? It is also the latter that characterizes the argument you have repeated times many, including in the OP:
KF in the OP:
That is, a SET is: ... c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)
Again, my emphasis, The denial of the proposition "error exists" is incoherent because due to self-reference. IMHO, that referential paradox establishes nothing "self-evident" about the world. Of course, the former ("Error exists in particular") only establishes that error is evident, not self-evident.Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2013
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SB
What in the name of sense does that have to do with reification? Please stay on topic.
You have written many times:
A) Error exists
You also wrote:
B) Now show me how I used the word “error” as if were a concrete, physical entity, or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea. (my emphasis)
I wrote:
To say that an idea exists is meaningless unless all you mean is that one or more people have had that idea – which you have repeatedly said is not what you mean when it comes to errors.
I am saying that when you wrote (A) you were using the word “error” in a way that implied it was not merely an idea. If you want to call that reification is up to you. I am merely responding to your challenge (B).Mark Frank
December 7, 2013
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RB: Kindly, take time to acquaint yourself with the classic square of opposition as rehabilitated, and the difference between I-form and E-form assertions. Error exists is particular, the denial is a universal negative as the relevant diagonal will immediately show. It is the latter that entails there are no false propositions or assertions and is therefore self referential as it is a proposition. The former, being particular, addresses only that there is at least one entity x, such that it is properly collected by the set R, that collects errors. It does not even depend on there being false and erroneous propositions, any error will do, such as that which we find in protein synthesis and folding, which cells were dealing with long before humans were there to observe such. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2013
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Mark Frank
Just asserting that something exists is to assert that it is not merely an idea.
Reciprocating Bill, whom you are now trying to defend, said that the term "error exists" is a reification. To "reify" means to assign concrete or physical existence to an abstract idea. Show me how I have attributed concrete or physical existence to the term "error exists."
To say that an idea exists is meaningless unless all you mean is that one or more people have had that idea – which you have repeatedly said is not what you mean when it comes to errors.
What in the name of sense does that have to do with reification? Please stay on topic.StephenB
December 7, 2013
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SB #346
Inasmuch as Reciprocating Bill has ignored my challenge @325, I will assume that he concedes my point: To say “error exists” is not to assign concreteness to an abstract concept.
RB has not answered this as far as I can see – so I will. The challenge was:
Now show me how I used the word “error” as if were a concrete, physical entity, or how I treated an abstract entity (error) as something that was concrete and not merely an idea. Show me how I committed the error of “misplaced concreteness.”
Just asserting that something exists is to assert that it is not merely an idea. To say that an idea exists is meaningless unless all you mean is that one or more people have had that idea - which you have repeatedly said is not what you mean when it comes to errors.Mark Frank
December 7, 2013
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SB:
I have asserted that “error exists” is not self-referential.
The proposition “Yellow balloons exist” entails the set "yellow balloons." The scope of action of “Yellow balloons exist” is the larger set of objects, “balloons,” objects with the potential to satisfy “yellow balloons.” The proposition “Yellow balloons exist” is not a member of the set “balloons” (propositions are not balloons), does not fall within the scope of action of “Yellow balloons exist” and therefore gives no self-referential trouble when we examine each object within that scope to determine whether it is a member of the set “yellow balloons.” We don’t examine the proposition “yellow balloons exist” to determine whether it is a yellow balloon because propositions are are not balloons. The proposition “propositions in error exist” entails the set “propositions in error.” The scope of action of “propositions in error exist” is the larger set of objects, “propositions,” objects with the potential to satisfy “propositions in error exist.” The proposition “propositions in errors exist” IS a member of the set “propositions”, does fall within the scope of action of “propositions in error exist” and therefore does give self-referential trouble when we examine the proposition “propositions in error exist” to determine whether it is within the set “propositions in error.” We do examine the proposition “propositions in error exist” to determine whether it is a proposition in error because it is in fact a proposition, and is therefore within the scope of it’s own action. Therein lies the self-reference of “errors exist,” and the self-referential short circuit. It is membership within the scope of its own action that renders it impossible for "propositions in error exist" to be false. Other than illustrating a pathology that can arise as a result of self-reference, that conclusion tells us nothing about the world. (I was amused by the typo "propositions in errors exit.")Reciprocating Bill
December 7, 2013
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Reciprocating Bill
But StephenB denies that self-reference is present at all:
Reciprocating Bill is knowingly promoting falsehoods. I have asserted that "error exists" is not self-referential. I have not said the same thing about its denial.
Unless StephenB wishes to argue both that “error exists” is not self-referential and that the denial of “error exists” IS self-referential thus incoherent/paradoxical, KF and SB disagree on the self-referential root of the paradox of “error exits.”
I have argued only that error exists, that it is not self referential, and that it proves the existence of objecctive truth. That I have not yet discussed the denial aspect does not mean that I disagree with kairosfocus. It simply means that it is unrelated to my argument. Reciprocating Bill is just making things up. Why he thinks he can get away with it is a mystery. ---- ---- Inasmuch as Reciprocating Bill has ignored my challenge @325, I will assume that he concedes my point: To say "error exists" is not to assign concreteness to an abstract concept.StephenB
December 6, 2013
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