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Understanding self-evidence (with a bit of help from Aquinas . . . )

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It seems that one of the pivotal issues in reasoned thinking about design-related questions — and in general —  is the question of self-evident first, certain truths that can serve as a plumb-line for testing other truth claims, and indeed for rationality.

(Where, the laws of identity, non-contradiction and excluded middle are foremost among such first principles. And where also, some ID objectors profess to be “frightened” that some of us dare to hold that there are moral truths that are self evident.)

Where also of course, self-evident does not merely mean perceived as obvious to oneself, which could indeed be a manifestation of a delusion. Nay, a self evident truth [SET] is best summarised as one known to be so and to be necessarily so without further proof from other things.

That is, a SET is:

a: actually true — it accurately reports some relevant feature of reality (e.g.: error exists)

b: immediately recognised as true once one actually understands what is being asserted, in light of our conscious experience of the world (as in, no reasonable person would but recognise the reality that error exists)

c: further seen as something that must be true, on pain of patent absurdity on attempted denial. (E.g. try denying “error exists” . . . the absurdity is rapidly, forcefully manifest)

I think Aquinas has a few helpful words for us:

Now a thing is said to be self-evident in two ways: first, in itself; secondly, in relation to us. Any proposition is said to be self-evident in itself, if its predicate is contained in the notion of the subject: although, to one who knows not the definition of the subject, it happens that such a proposition is not self-evident. For instance, this proposition, “Man is a rational being,” is, in its very nature, self-evident, since who says “man,” says “a rational being”: and yet to one who knows not what a man is, this proposition is not self-evident. Hence it is that, as Boethius says (De Hebdom.), certain axioms or propositions are universally self-evident to all; and such are those propositions whose terms are known to all, as, “Every whole is greater than its part,” and, “Things equal to one and the same are equal to one another.” But some propositions are self-evident only to the wise, who understand the meaning of the terms of such propositions . . . .

Now a certain order is to be found in those things that are apprehended universally. For that which, before aught else, falls under apprehension, is “being,” the notion of which is included in all things whatsoever a man apprehends. Wherefore the first indemonstrable principle is that “the same thing cannot be affirmed and denied at the same time,” which is based on the notion of “being” and “not-being”: and on this principle all others are based, as is stated in Metaph. iv, text. 9.

In short, we have two facets here, First, standing by itself a SET has an objective character and is a first principle, a point of certain knowledge. But, that brings up the second aspect: we need to understand it, that we may grasp it. And, that may well fail, primarily by way of ignorance, secondarily by way of commitment to a contrary ideology that makes it difficult or even nearly impossible to acknowledge that which on the actual merits is self-evident.

How can we address the problem?

By understanding the significance of how rejecting a SET ends in absurdity. Which may be by outright obvious logical contradiction, or by undermining rationality or by being chaotically destructive and/or senseless. Moral SETs are usually seen as self evident in this latter sense.

For instance, by way of laying down a benchmark, let us take the SET that has been so often put here at UD, by way of underscoring vital moral hazards connected to evolutionary materialism (which entails that there are no objective foundations for morality, as many leading Darwinists have acknowledged on the record), to wit:

MORAL YARDSTICK 1: it is Self-Evidently True that it would be wrong to kidnap, torture, rape and murder a child. With corollary, that if such is in progress we are duty-bound to intervene to save the child from the monster.

It will be observed that essentially no-one dares to explicitly deny this, or its direct corollary. That is because such denial would put one in the category of supporting a blatant monster like Nero. Instead, the tendency is to try to push this into the world of tastes, preferences, feelings and community views. Such a view may indeed reflect such, but it is more, it asserts boldly that here is an OUGHT that one denies being bound by, on pain of absurdity. Which of course, further points to our world being a reality grounded in an IS adequate to sustain OUGHT, i.e. we are under moral government.

But, that is not all.

Let us again note Dr Richard Dawkins on the record, in Scientific American, August 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [–> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . .

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [–> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

This is right in the heart of the science and society issues that rage over Darwinism and wider evolutionary materialist origins thought. Where, let us again remind ourselves, we must frankly and squarely face how Dr Richard Lewontin went on record also:

. . . the problem is to get [people] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[–> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident [[–> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . ] that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test  [[–> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . .

It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[–> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[–> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Bold emphasis and notes added. ]

These are smoking gun admissions as to the nature, prior commitments [viewed as self evident! . . . but actually only question-begging . . . ] and consequences of evolutionary materialist ideology, regardless of whether or not it is dressed up in the proverbial lab coat.

And, just as it is legitimate to confront a priori materialist impositions on the methods and conclusions of origins science  it is equally in order to raise serious questions on the moral implications of such ideologies and the way they irreconcilably conflict with yardstick cases of self evident moral truth.

Let us look back at that child.

S/he has no physical prowess to impose his or her will. S/he has no eloquence to persuade a demonic Nero-like monster to stop from brutally despoiling and destructive sick pleasures. S/he is essentially helpless. And yet, our consciences speak loud and clear, giving an insight that this ought not to be done, yea even, if we see such in progress we ought to intervene to rescue if we can, how we can.

Is that voice of conscience delusional, a mere survival trait that leads us to perceive an ought as a binding obligation where there is no such, or it is merely the perceived threat of being caught by superior state power or the like?

We already know from great reformers that the state can be in the wrong, though often that was taught at fearsome cost. (Nero’s vicious persecutions being themselves evidence in point.)

And, if one is imagining that a major aspect of mindedness is delusional, where does that stop?

In short, once the premise of general delusion of our key mental faculties is introduced we are in an infinite regress of Plato’s cave worlds. If we say we identify delusion A, who is to say but this is delusion B, thence C, D, E and so forth?

Plato's Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)
Plato’s Cave of shadow shows projected before life-long prisoners and confused for reality. Once the concept of general delusion is introduced, it raises the question of an infinite regress of delusions. The sensible response is to see that this should lead us to doubt the doubter and insist that our senses be viewed as generally reliable unless they are specifically shown defective. (Source: University of Fort Hare, SA, Phil. Dept.)

{U/D Dec 4:}  A video adaptation (one that is closely accurate to the text of The Republic):

So, we see the cogency of UD’s own WJM as he has argued:

If you do not [acknowledge] the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not [admit] the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not [recognise] libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not [accept] morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.

In short, resort to dismissing key mental capacities as general delusion is a morass, a self-refuting fallacy.  (Which is different from, whether one may be in specific error and even a great many may be in specific error. Indeed, if we look at the original Plato’s Cave parable, it side-steps that by pointing to the one man who is set free and recognises the apparatus of manipulation for what it is, then, having been led to see more widely, returns to try to help; only to face the power of a mass delusion rooted in an evident error that is clung to.)

Instead, we should respect the general capacity of our mental faculties, recognising their strengths as well as limitations, and how playing the general delusion card is self referentially incoherent and absurd.

There is absolutely no good reason to assume or brazenly assert or insinuate that our insight on moral yardstick 1, is delusional. We have instead every good reason to hold that we are morally governed, with conscience as a faculty of mind that serves that government, though it may be dulled or become defective or may be in error on specific points. (Much as is so for vision and hearing, etc.)

So, let us follow up:

1 –> Per MY # 1 etc., we see — on pain of absurdity if we try to deny — that there are self-evident moral truths, entailing that we are under the moral government of OUGHT.

2 –> Where by MY # 1, the little child has moral equality, quasi-infinite worth and equal dignity with us as fellow human beings, a status that immediately is inextricably entangled with that s/he has core rights that we OUGHT to respect: her or his life, liberty, personhood, etc.

3 –> So, we are under moral government, which requires a world in which OUGHT rests on a foundational IS that can bear its weight.

4 –> And, I am very aware of the dismissals of and debates regarding “foundationalism” out there {U/D Dec 02: link added with adjustments, “foundationalism” was there all along . . . }, on closer inspection we can readily see that our worldviews and arguments are invariably dependent on finitely distant start points on which the systems of thought or reasoning must stand:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way

5 –> So, also, we confront the challenge that –  there is just one serious candidate for such a  reality-foundational IS that can bear the weight of OUGHT: the inherently good eternal Creator God, whose precepts and principles will be evidently sound from . . . moral yardstick self evident truths.

6 –> Where also we can highlight the framework of such truths in the context of civil society and government, by citing a pivotal historical case or two.  First, that when he set out to ground the principles of what would become modern liberty and democracy, John Locke cited “the judicious [anglican canon Richard] Hooker” in Ch 2 Sect 5 of his second essay on civil government, thusly:

. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant . . . [[Hooker then continues, citing Aristotle in The Nicomachean Ethics, Bk 8:] as namely, That because we would take no harm, we must therefore do none; That since we would not be in any thing extremely dealt with, we must ourselves avoid all extremity in our dealings; That from all violence and wrong we are utterly to abstain, with such-like . . . ] [[Eccl. Polity,preface, Bk I, “ch.” 8, p.80, cf. here. Emphasis added.]

7 –> Less than a hundred years later, this was powerfully echoed in the appeal to self evident moral truths in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That [–> still, held self-evident!] to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government [–> right of judicious reformation and innovation, if necessary backed by the right of just revolution in the face of unyielding tyranny when remonstrance fails and threats or actual violence manifest in “a long train of abuses and usurpations” indicates an intent of unlimited despotism . . . ], laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . .

8 –> Those who would therefore seek to poison the well and the atmosphere for discussion on such matters, need to first pause and soberly address these historically decisive cases.

_______________

Therefore, the amorality of evolutionary materialist ideology stands exposed as absurd in the face of self-evident moral truths. Where, such moral yardsticks imply that we are under government of OUGHT, leading onward to the issue that there is only one serious explanation for our finding ourselves living in such a world — a theistic one. END

Comments
F/N: Perhaps it may help us all to watch a video adaptation of Plato's parable of the cave, one that is closely faithful to the original text. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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This error business strikes me as pretty irrelevant as it is only a strange route to the conclusion that there are some objective truths – something everyone here would agree with anyway. However, I can't resist challenging such extraordinary thinking. As I understand it, the case KF and SB make is on the lines of: Error exists – this is a self-evident truth which leads to absurdity if denied If there is error then there must an objective truth to which it is compared Therefore there are objective truths   I have several problems with this. The two most important are I don’t know what “error exists” means. There are two meanings I could understand: a) People make errors b) There are lots of potential (and actual) errors  people could make In #218 I suggested to SB that it was (b). He replied “it could be potential or actual” which I took as agreement. However, in #231 he appears to be retracting that on the grounds I introduced the word potential. This does leave me confused. SB wants to say that some (in fact I guess most) errors exists even though no one has ever committed them!  I really struggle to know what the word “exist” is doing there. What is it saying over and above (b)? What would it be like for an error not to exist? He seems to be contending that errors exist in some sense apart from actual or potential acts or states of mind of people.   Not all errors are errors of fact Errors come in a wide variety of types. Some are misunderstandings about objective facts and can be reasonably be opposed to objective truths. Others are errors of execution, or judgement, or timing or … I supplied some examples in #209 and SB appeared to agree in #218 (but given his apparent agreement on (b) in the same comment followed by retraction in #231 I am not confident). If we accept this then I have to wonder what we can deduce from the fact that error exists (whatever it means). Finally in #227 KF kindly supplies a set of definitions of “error” with the comment that neither SB or he have indulged in idiosyncratic usage. I never accused either of idiosyncratic usage of the word “error” only of the word “exists” in the context “error exists” which is not covered in the definition. So I don’t see the relevance of the definitions. However, it is interesting to note that the definitions support my contention that errors are acts or states of mind of people and that they are diverse including not just deviations from what is true also what is correct, right or an accepted code of behaviour.Mark Frank
December 3, 2013
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Q: Grue and Bleen etc are put forth to suggest limitations on inductive knowledge. Namely, we cannort account for unobserved, rare changes in a generalisation from a pattern of observations. There are two issues here. First, there is the question of the stability of the world. The best explanation of which is, the world is a product of ordering mind. Consequently it is reasonable to infer order from instances. Indeed, historically, in light of the Judaeo-Christian tradition, that is the root of modern science. The second is like unto it: miracles and unexpected transformations. In the Judaeo-Christian frame, there is no problem whatsoever in seeing that we deal with the ordinary course of the world, knowing that for good reason it is open to exceptions so to speak for good reason. Miracles. Where also, as inductive knowledge is provisional and subject to adjustment or replacement in light of further experience, if we ever do discover that some emeralds have a property that after a certain time they transform colour to blue, we can hold that this is a new phenomenon to be explained. There is in that view no reason to be concerned over whether the emerald is grue or green. If it can somehow spontaneously transform [which would mean there is a metastable state in it and a threshold would have been passed or a tunnelling effect], it was green then was transformed to blue. Just, our observations along the way were limited by ignorance of an interesting possibility. But in that, we have an evidence issue, as quantum tunnelling leads to a population effect so the transformation would occur on a population basis, and we would have something comparable to radioactivity and its half-life phenomenon. In short, much of the intellectual brouhaha over such issues is hinged to the inherent instability and absurdity of evolutionary materialism as a worldview, which is manifest in ever so many ways. But if this view is ideologically locked in and institutionalised [so that, inter alia it even unduly influences other views . . . ], then as the absurdities mount up, there is going to be a reaction, boiling down to the world is a chaos. Which should sound familiar. Comparative difficulties strikes again. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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SC: A superposition of wave states or the like [my favourite quantum example being hybrid orbitals for the C-atom, especially in the Benzine ring . . . ] is not a contradiction. There is a tendency to suggest that it is but that is driven by the ideology, not the proper meaning of such. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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SelvaRajan
Hi SB, I certainly don’t see anything wrong with my comments @237. I may be irrational for you but not for everybody! If you could explain a bit why you would consider any of the comments @237 false, I could change my views.
It will be my privilege. Thank you for asking. SB: Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?
Yes. Everyday, for half of the world, Sun exists while for the other half Sun ceases to exist.
No. The sun (or Jupiter for that matter) does not stop existing when it is no longer in view, nor does it begin to exist again when it comes back into view. What changes are the conditions that allow us to view it. Existence is not the same thing as the perception of existence.
For atheist God doesn’t exist, for a child monsters under bed doesn’t exist until nightfall.
Same as above. God's existence does not depend on the atheist's belief system. God does not die when someone chooses not to believe in Him, nor does He come back to life when someone chooses to believe in Him. Existence is not the same thing as belief in existence. And so on with the remainder of your examples. Because you have, through no fault of your own, been steeped in subjectivism, you have come to believe that your beliefs and perceptions define reality. You are not alone. Many others on this thread labor under the same illusion (and delusion).StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Q: "The “grue” paradox might apply here." The so-called grue paradox is simply an sophist abusing language, as they are wont to do. It has no application anywhere.Barry Arrington
December 3, 2013
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SB: There is only one Jupiter and quantum mechanics has nothing to say that would invalidate that fact. Central Scrutinizer;
Again, ignorance on parade. I won’t bother dealing with you again.
I will miss your reports from the Twilight Zone.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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The "grue" paradox might apply here. In a logic class I once took, the color grue was defined as something that was green for 100 years (or more) and then briefly turns blue. - So, can an object be both green and grue at the same time? - How do you know whether something is green or grue, and how can you be sure? - If you can't sort out colors, what chance do you have of sorting out moral or philosophical issues? -QQuerius
December 3, 2013
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Jupiter's gravitational effects are ever present, regardless of whether anyone is actively observing it at a specific point in time. Can Jupiter's gravity both affect and not affect the rest of the solar system relative to different observers at some time t? Of course not. If quantum realities make Jupiter's existence uncertain for any reason, then there should be a measurable effect of that uncertainty upon the rest of the solar system.Chance Ratcliff
December 3, 2013
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SB: I am aware of quantum mechanics and it varied interpretations.
By your words you appear to be patently ignorant of them, and the solid understanding that Sal has.
There is only one Jupiter and quantum mechanics has nothing to say that would invalidate that fact.
Again, ignorance on parade. I won't bother dealing with you again. Good luck with him, Sal.CentralScrutinizer
December 3, 2013
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Hi SB, I certainly don't see anything wrong with my comments @237. I may be irrational for you but not for everybody! If you could explain a bit why you would consider any of the comments @237 false, I could change my views.selvaRajan
December 3, 2013
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SelvaRajan:
Frankly, I find a lot of comments on this thread irrational and shocking, chief among them (implied) – ‘Killing babies is okay’
I am with you all the way on that one. It is truly irrational to suggest that killing babies is okay. You are definitely showing signs of life again.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Selvarajan
You can’t apply Quantum mechanics to Jupiter
Well you certainly can't apply it to the fact of Jupiter's existence. Maybe you can yet be be saved from irrationality
In general what exists for one doesn’t necessary exist for all.
You are starting to regress again.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Thank you for confessing that you are not a rational person.
you are welcome :-) Frankly, I find a lot of comments on this thread irrational and shocking, chief among them (implied) - 'Killing babies is okay'selvaRajan
December 3, 2013
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Central Scrutizer
Quantum uncertainly leads to ambiguities, that’s why. Apparently you know nothing of the subject.
I am aware of quantum mechanics and it varied interpretations. You presume too much.
SO, when you ask about “Jupiter” you have to be specific about WHICH Jupiter. It’s not a simple answer, as much as you’d it to be.
There is only one Jupiter and quantum mechanics has nothing to say that would invalidate that fact. Thank you for confessing that you are not a rational person. At least you and selvaRajan have the courage of your irrational convictions, which is more than I can say about some people on this thread.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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SB: Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality? SelvaRajan:
Yes. Everyday, for half of the world,
Thank you for confessing that you are not a rational person.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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CentralScrutinizer, You can't apply Quantum mechanics to Jupiter. I think my comments @237 would appropriately answer StephenBselvaRajan
December 3, 2013
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StephenB: I don’t know why it would be perplexing to consider the prospect that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time.
Quantum uncertainly leads to ambiguities, that's why. Apparently you know nothing of the subject. There are several interpretations of the quantum equations that attempt to make the realities of the empirical quantum world make more "sense" to us. For example, the Many Worlds interpretation is the view that a reality bifurcates every time a wave-function collapses and a superposition becomes "reduces" to a classical level object or event. Other interpretation try to approach the quantum evidence in other ways. My point is, all of the interpretation imply that "reality isn't what we think it is in a common sense way." If you are not aware of that, then you have no right to give Sal any static. If the Many Worlds interpretation is the "right" one, then two Jupiters would exist where only one existed before, when a superposition is reduced. SO, when you ask about "Jupiter" you have to be specific about WHICH Jupiter. It's not a simple answer, as much as you'd it to be. The more you talk to Sal the more you sound like someone raised in the 19th century. Quite frankly, your arguments are patently ignorant of the state of the art. No offense.CentralScrutinizer
December 3, 2013
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SB: Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?
Yes. Everyday, for half of the world, Sun exists while for the other half Sun ceases to exist. For atheist God doesn't exist, for a child monsters under bed doesn't exist until nightfall. For blind the world doesn't exist, for color blind Red doesn't exist. For a fly a single world doesn't exist - it has compound eyes. In general what exists for one doesn't necessary exist for all.selvaRajan
December 3, 2013
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Scordova
Well then I, I defer to you philosophical judgement, QM doesn’t count as ontological reality, many quantum worlds do not count as the same sense, hence QM will never over ride LNC. Never ever.
I didn't say that QM doesn't count as ontological reality. On the contrary, QM does count as ontological reality. So, my question persists: Given that quantum mechanics is part of ontological reality (the reality that exists independent of mind) can you still say that QM will never override LNC. I realize that you will never grant it for what it is, namely a self-evident truth, since you think it must be taken on faith, but I would appreciate a direct answer.
I never said it violates LNC, but it was truthful of me to say, for some, it cast doubt on the matter. I certainly found the question perplexing.
I don't know why it would be perplexing to consider the prospect that Jupiter cannot exist and not exist at the same time. It's no more perplexing than the question of whether a thing can be true and false at the same time. The first question is the ontological version of contradiction and the second is its psychological/logical counterpart. If Barry's question pertains to the latter, and you answered it without hesitation, why would you hesitate to answer the former question with equal conviction?StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Well then I, I defer to you philosophical judgement, QM doesn't count as ontological reality, many quantum worlds do not count as the same sense, hence QM will never over ride LNC. Never ever. I never said it violates LNC, but it was truthful of me to say, for some, it cast doubt on the matter. I certainly found the question perplexing. There are you happy?scordova
December 3, 2013
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SB: Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality? Scordova
If I suppose on faith that Jupiter exists from my reference frame, in my corner of the quantum world, in my sense, in my state, then I assume it cannot simultaneously not-exist.
That is a far different story than the one you told Barry. He asked you if a thing can be true and false at the same time and in the same sense---period, and you answered with an unequivocal no. Do you not understand that you were saying, in effect, that the Law of Non-Contradiction admits of no qualifications or exceptions and that it takes logical precedence over the principles of Quantum mechanics. Now you seem to be saying what you have always said: that the principles of quantum mechanics take logical precedence over the Law of Non-Contradiction, which, you seem to be saying, does allows for exceptions in some circumstances.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Following this rule to this every possible thing exists even if it never happened. If you want to use “exist” this way that is up to you
No, I don’t want to use “exist” the way you want to use it, because it is irrelevant to the argument. So please stop asking me to address questions that are framed that way. I want to use the word exist to mean what it means, actual existence. And I do not want to use the word potential since it is totally irrelevant. Are we clear on that? I hope so. Now that we agree on that point, do you have anything to say about the argument.” Errors exist, therefore, objective truth exists.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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Can Jupiter exist and not exist at the same time as an ontological reality?
If I suppose on faith that Jupiter exists from my reference frame, in my corner of the quantum world, in my sense, in my state, then I assume it cannot simultaneously not-exist. But do quantum realities count as ontological? I don't know the answer to that. If not, then no, if yes, then yes. I leave it to philosophers to answer such questions. But first some preliminaries. For large macroscopic objects like Jupiter, classical perceptions and physics rule, but when one starts describing objects at the atomic level that are close in proportion to Plank's constant, then these sort of questions become quite serious. Thus, if Jupiter looks like it is there, there is virtually no chance it is not there in from our perspective. But for atomic and sub atomic size particles it's not quite so cut and dry... Quantum computing is a serious technological advance and it does raise ontological questions because a quantum bit (Q-bit) can be both true and not true:
(Q-bit = true AND Q-bit = false) = TRUE
Hence we have the Schrodinger Cat paradox, but now, not a mere curiosity, but the Schrodinger Cat paradox is a means to make faster computers! So how does this not violate LNC? Perhaps the predicate is not well formed, or perhaps the notion of ontological reality is an ill posed question like asking "what is the structure of a square circle". One solution is that there isn't an objective reality. I reject that, but my point was, QM and GR begin to pose doubt on such questions in the minds of some... Btw, experiments have been run that re-write history such as the famous Quantum Erasure experiments. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_eraser_experiment I also pointed out the train paradox. As in the case of the train paradox it doesn't make sense to say: "did the events happen simultaneously or not", it is an ontologically senseless question to ask. You have multiple correct, accurate, honest, but conflicting answers to the question. There may be ontological questions that shouldn't even be posed like "does a square circle have diameter?", but in the case of certain quantum uncertainties, even plain old existence may not be a well-posed question -- like asking if Schrodinger's cat is alive or dead. That said, if one accepts that there is God (physicists would call him the Ultimate Observer), then we can have objective reality. I accept this postulate, and hence I believe in objective reality. Others do not accept the God postulate, and hence the question of Jupiter's existence is meaningless in the ultimate sense, only meaningful from our perspective. In the many-worlds interpretation of QM, Jupiter exists in one world and not another, and since there is no privileged observer, there is objective answer to the question, hence it can exist and not exist at the same time – whether that is ontological existence, I leave for the philosophers. But the Schrodinger cat paradox is not a mere intellectual curiousity, it's what could fuel the next generation of computers that leverage "many worlds" (whether the worlds are real or virtual, is a philosophical question, I opt for believing the many-worlds of q-bits are only virtual in the ultimate sense). I do not hold the many-worlds, multiverse view. I believe in objective reality. You made the accusation:
you deny the Law of Non-Contradiction but the fact of it.
I did not deny the Law, that's your mis-characterization of what I believe, I deny that it is universally applicable to every proposition. Philosophical ideas are usually couched in language that is not amenable to LNC, so why the emphasis? In my debates with Darwinists I rely heavily on LNC arguments. However, I'm not at all enthusiastic about the use of LNC in matters philosophical and theological because the propositions are not amenable to the rigors of an LNC system. The result is philosophers extrapolate their limited understanding of the world to universal scale thinking they have air tight arguments when really they were based on propositions that wouldn't fit within LNC logic. You took offense that I criticized your notion of natural law in morality. Natural law is an approximate guide, but it's not the most accurate. Adultery, theft, murder -- these can be forgiven in God's sight, but according to Christian doctrine, not trusting in Christ will result in greater punishment. Natural law theology doesn't guide someone to the most important decision they'll make, namely accepting Jesus as savior. I just found it distasteful to hear talk of objective morality from Christians, and hear no appeal to Jesus, the one with the most objective perspective. In the Christian view, the Bible was written from the ultimate objective reference, God himself. Now, there are competing religious texts. Hence, I'm interested whether there is physical evidence the Bible is indeed the objective perspective handed down from the Intelligent Designer himself. My personal interests to that effect: 1. Genetic Entropy to confirm the genealogy of Christ, 2. Archaeology to verify other claims of the Bible, 3. Geology to detect evidence of Noah's flood 4. Cosmology and Physics to detect possible youthfulness of the universe. Hence, when those here demand objective evidence of right and wrong, if such evidence is found, if we have evidence the Bible is God's word vs. any other sacred text, we have our objective law book. Natural law morality might be helpful to formulating government policy among parties with disparate beliefs, but in the scheme of things, if Christ is who he says he is, the law of grace is far more important. Relying on natural law ideas may lead to behaviors that violate what God wants. I gave some examples to consider, such as parents in Nero's time, etc. Natural law is like a pilot relying on his sense of motion to guide him. It's not too bad, he can get by for a while, but in instrument conditions, it could be his demise.scordova
December 3, 2013
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Mark Frank
So here is an error that never actually happened but still exists!
You are the one that introduced the word, "potential,"
It is fairly clear now that what you and KF mean is there are potential errors that people could make.
And you intruded that word in your example question:
Consider the potential error 6293+4124=3829. I don’t suppose anyone has ever made that error. What is the significance of saying it exists?
and you asked me to address it on that basis. If your don't think it is potential, and I agree that it isn't, then don't ask me to address it on that basis. In fact, it is an actual error and it points to objective truth.
This is philosophy gone mad.
I agree. So, quit injecting it into the discussion. We are talking about actual errors. Let is speak of errors.
Following this rule to this every possible thing exists even if it never happened. If you want to use “exist” this way that is up to you
No, I don't want to use "exist" the way you want to use it, because it is irrelevant to the argument. So please stop asking me to address questions that are framed that way. I want to use the word exist to mean what it means, actual existence. And I do not want to use the word potential since it is totally irrelevant. Are we clear on that. I hope so. Now that we agree on that point, do you have anything to say about the argument." Errors exist, therefore, objective truth exists.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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The yardstick is not different for those who know it So who 'knows it' ? You just dont get it.Graham2
December 3, 2013
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Gragam2 1:" What is ‘good’ ?" Anything is good for a thing if it fits its nature and purpose. A car has a nature and purpose. It's nature, among other things, is to burn gas and turn wheels. It's purpose is transportation. Gas is good for the engine, water is bad; oil is good for the crankcase, molasses is bad. "Who decides ?" Whoever creates the thing and establishes its purpose also decides what is good for it. "Who is right ?" Whoever recommends a policy or action in keeping with the thing's nature and purpose. With respect to an automobile, anyone who recommends putting gasoline in the tank and oil in the crankcase is right. "Who is wrong ?" Whoever recommends a policy or action that violates a thing's nature and purpose. Anyone who recommends putting water in the gas tank and molasses in the crankcase is wrong. "The remaining points all suffer the same problem." What problem? "They refer to ‘natural duties’, ‘public good’ etc, but according to whose judgement ?" According to the judgment of those who know the nature and purpose of the public good. "Playboy magazines are publicly displayed in western countrys, but not in, say, Egypt. "So who is right ?" Those who don't display it. " Who is wrong ?" Those who do display it. "How can you tell ?" It violates the dignity of the human person, both the person being observed and the observer. Humans were made to love each other, not to ogle at other human beings as sexual objects, which is a very selfish and unloving thing to do. "In general, any judgement from any person will be different." So what? "So how can you tell who is right ?" You are repeating yourself. "You can apply a yardstick, but the yardstick is, itself, different for different people." The yardstick is not different for those who know it and the reason for it. It is different for those who do not know the purpose of a yardstick. "My concept of ‘public good’ is different to yours, and yours to the next person, etc." What is your yardstick for the public good? Define the public good. "Please note Im not disputing the existence of objective morality here (though I dont believe it exists) but for the moment Im simply arguing that we cannot identify it." The Ten Commandments, The Sermon on the Mount, and the Law of love, constitute objective morality and higher law. A large section of first part is easy to identify since everyone already knows it instinctively. It is not the same thing as the civil law, though the former ought to influence the latter. "Lastly, if there was truly some method of determining if a decision lined up with the ‘higher law’ then why do we bother with juries ?" Juries are not supposed to determine morality. They are supposed to decide whether defendants are innocent are guilty of violating morality. "Why doesnt the judge simply apply your rules (see #213!) and come up with the ‘correct’ answer as per the ‘higher law’ ?" Not all judges believe in that higher law. Besides, not every act is easy to identify as being moral or immoral. Also, many acts, perhaps most acts, are morally neutral. There are such things as hard cases. Without objective morality as a guiding principle, the hard cases become impossible cases.StephenB
December 3, 2013
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G2: Pardon, but again, diversity of opinion is a matter of fact on any number of topics. That by no means implies that no-one is right on such, or that the "only" way to come to a conclusion is tastes and preferences perhaps backed up by controlling the mikes and the guns that stand behind the courts. That is precisely why key cases that reveal underlying bedrock principles and standards can help us move forward to understanding how we are governed by ought, and thus to learn how to value, respect and cherish neighbour as self. (And, BTW, pornography is a destructive, abusive plague that exploits especially young women in a species of human trafficking. The notion that it is harmless expression is far off the mark.) So, let us go back to the yardstick cases in the OP. Can you tell us what is so "frightening" -- your repeated words, recall -- about seeing it as duty to protect children from so horrific a fate as was outlined? Or, to respect life, liberty and the need to fulfill potential and purpose [what pursuit of happiness means], or the notion that governments derive legitimacy from the people and are subject to petition, remonstrance and replacement; this last especially (as bought at the price of blood) through the ballot box? KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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MF: Let us review AmHD again:
er·ror (rr) n. 1. An act, assertion, or belief that unintentionally deviates from what is correct, right, or true. 2. The condition of having incorrect or false knowledge. 3. The act or an instance of deviating from an accepted code of behavior. 4. A mistake. 5. Mathematics The difference between a computed or measured value and a true or theoretically correct value. 6. Abbr. E Baseball A defensive fielding or throwing misplay by a player when a play normally should have resulted in an out or prevented an advance by a base runner. [Middle English errour, from Old French, from Latin error, from errre, to err; see ers- in Indo-European roots.]
In short, neither SB nor the undersigned has indulged in idiosyncratic usage. Rather, it seems that -- with all due respect -- not wishing to accept the conclusion, you have sought to find objections that would otherwise be of very little value. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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F/N: onlookers, the suggestion at 222 probably sounds over the top -- precisely because it is absurd. However, there is a little shocker. Start, with dean of New Atheism, Dr Richard Dawkins' statement in Sci Am, August 1995, as is cited in the OP:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose [--> It escapes Dr Dawkins that we may have good reason for refusing this implication of his favoured ideological evolutionary materialism] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference [--> As in open admission of utter amorality that opens the door to nihilism] . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [“God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
Notice, carefully, what Dawkins says. Then, notice also, that the absurdity in 222, is a direct consequence of the amorality of evolutionary materialism as espoused by Dawkins. Then, please, think again. KFkairosfocus
December 3, 2013
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