Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

William Lane Craig’s video on the objectivity of morality and the linked reality of God

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Here:

[youtube OxiAikEk2vU]

In this video, Dr Craig argues that we have good reason to accept the objectivity of ought, and from that we see that there is a credible ground of such, God.

In slightly more details, if one rejects the objectivity of the general sense of OUGHT as governing our behaviour, we are implying a general delusion.

Where, as there are no firewalls in the mind . . . a general delusion undermines the general credibility of knowledge and rationality.

And in practice even those who most passionately argue for moral subjectivity live by the premise that moral principles such as fairness, justice, doing good by neighbour etc are binding. That is, there is no good reason to doubt that reality.

OUGHT, credibly, is real and binding.

But if OUGHT is real, it has to be grounded in a foundational IS in the cosmos.

After centuries of debate, there is still only one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator-God, a necessary and maximally great being.

Essentially, the being we find referred to in the US Declaration of Independence of 1776 (which also shows the positive, liberating historic impact of such a view):

When . . . it becomes necessary for one people . . . to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, [cf Rom 1:18 – 21, 2:14 – 15], that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security . . . .

(Readers may wish to see this discussion in context as well.)

By way of contrast, on the evolutionary materialist perspective, we may for instance see Dawkins, in  as reproduced in “God’s Utility Function” in Sci Am in 1995:

Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 – 85.]

. . . or (adding overnight), Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson in the 1991 form of the essay, “The Evolution of Ethics”

The time has come to take seriously the fact [[–> This is a gross error at the outset, as macro-evolution is a theory (an explanation) about the unobserved past of origins and so cannot be a fact on the level of the observed roundness of the earth or the orbiting of planets around the sun etc.] that we humans are modified monkeys, not the favored Creation of a Benevolent God on the Sixth Day . . . We must think again especially about our so-called ‘ethical principles.’ The question is not whether biology—specifically, our evolution—is connected with ethics, but how. As evolutionists, we see that no justification of the traditional kind is possible. Morality, or more strictly our belief in morality, is merely an adaptation put in place to further our reproductive ends. Hence the basis of ethics does not lie in God’s will  … In an important sense, ethics as we understand it is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate. It is without external groundingEthics is illusory inasmuch as it persuades us that it has an objective reference. This is the crux of the biological position. [= evolutionary materialist philosophical premise, duly dressed up in a lab coat . . . ] Once it is grasped, everything falls into place. [Michael Ruse & E. O. Wilson, “The Evolution of Ethics,” Religion and the Natural Sciences: The Range of Engagement, , ed. J. E. Hutchingson, Orlando, Fl.:Harcourt and Brace, 1991.

. . . and Provine in his Darwin Day address at U. Tenn 1998:

Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent . . . . The first 4 implications are so obvious to modern naturalistic evolutionists that I will spend little time defending them. Human free will, however, is another matter. Even evolutionists have trouble swallowing that implication. I will argue that humans are locally determined systems that make choices. They have, however, no free will . . .

With Sir Francis Crick backing up in an inadvertent self-refutation:

. . . that “You”, your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll’s Alice might have phrased: “You’re nothing but a pack of neurons.” [–> But Sir Francis, what does this imply about your own responsible freedom and ability to choose to think reasonably?] This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing. [Cf. dramatisation of unintended potential consequences, here.]

So, it seems that if we are inclined to accept evolutionary materialist scientism and to reject God, we do end up in a want of foundation for morality. Which carries the onward implication of a general delusion and breakdown of the credibility of rational mindedness and responsible freedom.

Thus, reductio ad absurdum.

At least, that is how it looks from where I sit and type. Thoughts? (And if the thoughts are evolutionary materialistic, how do you ground credibility of mind and morals on such? For surely, blindly mechanical computation is not contemplation.) END

PS: I think it worth adding (Jan 29) a Koukl lecture:

[vimeo 9026899]

 

Comments
If moral principles are applied according to world view, and I hold that they are, then the correct world view - the truth - leads to the correct application of moral principles; IOW objective morality. Suppose a person who gradually discovers the truth and gets there at the age of 60. Did moral principles change during the course of his adult life? I think not. By learning the truth he was presented the capability to apply those unchanging moral principles correctly. I think of those moral principles as unchanging pieces of a puzzle waiting for a coherent and correct context - world view. An ill-informed judge doesn't rule unfairly because of his moral principles, but because he simply doesn't know the truth.Box
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
10:35 AM
10
10
35
AM
PDT
Zac
Objective means independent of the individual observer, but it’s clear that people differ substantially over moral questions.
The same is true with regard to scientific observations. But we consider them objective because they are external or independent of the individual observer. Objective morality differs from subjective morality because an objective code can be referenced external to the individual. It does not mean that because a moral code is objective that it is necessarily the single, universally true, complete code of human morality. To determine the truth of the moral values within any particular objective moral code is a different process. Aristotle's code of virtues is an objective moral code. It is a philosophical system defended by reason, referencing universal human values and adopted by a community of followers who recognized Aristotle's teaching as authoritative. That's an objective moral code. It can be accessed and evaluated. Epicurus' teaching on morality is also an objective moral code which differs considerably from Aristotle's. In many ways, it's based on the same universal human values but interpreted differently. Both of those codes can be compared and evaluated for their truthfulness, consistency, completeness and meaning. The same cannot be done for subjective morality. A subjective code is known only to the individual. It cannot be accessed, evaluated or understood - and it does not need to be fixed or consistent. Its not intended or directed to anyone but the individual.Silver Asiatic
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
10:34 AM
10
10
34
AM
PDT
Z, First, objective as opposed to subjective addresses that something is capable of reasonable (though perhaps provisional) warrant, not that it is a physical entity in itself. That obtains, for instance, for the expression 0 = 1 + e^i*pi, which involves an imaginary number serving as an exponent and two transcendentals (thus also the infinite and products involving such series) And likewise for F = m*a, a mathematical relationship that describes interactions that constrain physical phenomena under certain circumstances. (think about acceleration as the second rate of change of displacement . . . ) That people may differ over moral claims only means that error is possible and perhaps prevalent in certain cases. It has nothing to do with whether or no such principles can be reasonably warranted. Especially in a context where it has been brought to attention in this thread and elsewhere, that the testimony of our consciences, which is quite firm on things like murder, and especially cases like the one you keep skirting: it is wrong to kidnap, torture, sexually assault and murder a young child. Wrong tot he point of being self evidently so. Wrong to the point that those whose views are not consistent with that declaration, skirt it. Wrong, to the point that anyone who would actually directly disagree, would thereby identify him or herself as seriously morally deficient. Wrong, to the point that worldviews that imply the contrary, such as the sort of evolutionary materialism of a Ruse or a Dawkins that would imply that conscience is illusory insofar as it says there is a standard that this violates, imply onwards the presence of general delusion in our minds, thence collapse of the credibility of the self-aware, reasoning mind. Which is a reductio. Wrong, to the point that the worldviews that entail such reductios can be on the strength of just this one case and others like it, set apart as themselves gross errors. But of course, that challenge is the real problem. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
10:29 AM
10
10
29
AM
PDT
logically_speaking: “Do to others what you want them to do to you”. Is an objective morality. objective, of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers Independent observers disagree. For instance, someone who supports the aristocracy won't think that you should treat their vassals the same as their liege lord. logically_speaking: There yet remains the question of whether they ACTUALLY acted morally. Thought the question was whether morality was objective. logically_speaking: But you are sitting here saying “Yes! They did”, and likewise your assertion is not proof. Proof of what? That we find their actions moral? No, we don't. That we think morality is objective? There is wide variation in moral attitudes, and independent observers differ substantially. It's clear that morality is subjective. Even though people share many of the same viewpoints, morality is still particular to the social situation, even to the specific organism. Timmy: Obviously group status is very meaningful. Just not in the context of genuine morality, or explanations for genuine morality. All true Scotsmen agree. Timmy: You think that people have a strong sense of self-interest which results in behavior based on group status. That is not our position. People often exhibit selflessness. They are more likely to exhibit this characteristic for those to whom they feel attachment, but will sometimes exhibit selflessness towards strangers. Timmy: if evolution where true, morality wouldn’t exist–only self-interest and group status. You keep using "group status" is different ways. Do you mean gaining status within a group, or the feeling of belonging to the group? kairosfocus: The issue at stake, is not what people may consider or power groups may declare is right, but what is right. Objective means independent of the individual observer, but it's clear that people differ substantially over moral questions.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
10:02 AM
10
10
02
AM
PDT
Brent, you are putting your finger on the problem of cultural relativism that the moral reformer calling for change is the immoral one precisely because s/he rejects the consensus. And, that appeal to almighty consensus dominated by "our" elites should trip a lot of warning flags, as well as sounding oh so familiar. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
09:35 AM
9
09
35
AM
PDT
Z, there you go chasing the tail in a subjectivist circle again, and in so doing making a strawmanish substitution and distorting the issue. The issue at stake, is not what people may consider or power groups may declare is right, but what is right. And, the warrant for such, in the context of the strong testimony of conscience. There is credibly such a warrant, just it is not palatable to those who find such a Shadow on their doorstep utterly repugnant. And, it seems are perfectly willing to burn down the credibility of the mind to do so. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
09:31 AM
9
09
31
AM
PDT
Zachriel, "Not meaningless to those who belong to groups." Nice dodge. Obviously group status is very meaningful. Just not in the context of genuine morality, or explanations for genuine morality. "Christianity is about salvation, so you forgive your enemy for your own sake." Spare the theological spin, nobody cares: Christians do not do good "for their own sake", sorry. We are supposed to do it for the sake of being good. Lol. "However, it extends in-group status based on a set of beliefs. This led to numerous wars between Christian sects, not to mention persecution of the Jews." Can you read? What part of "love your enemy" or "turn the other cheek" makes the slightest bit of sense in the context of your group-status evolutionary explanation? None of it. This silly observation about "Christian" wars only reflects back to the only reasonable explanation of human behavior in this context: we have objective morality programmed into us, but our sense of it is corrupted and obscured. Christianity reveals and/or taps into that objective morality, which is what people found appealing. "We agree that people have a strong moral sense." No, you don't. You think that people have a strong sense of self-interest which results in behavior based on group status. That's not morality. If we are going to bother using the term "morality", then we will be using it to refer to something that can't be reduced to self-interest. And I agree with you: if evolution where true, morality wouldn't exist--only self-interest and group status. But morality does exist. Jesus proved that better than anyone, by throwing out self-interest and group status as a basis for behavior and reminding us of the objective morality that we already knew. Therefore, evolution is not true.Timmy
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
09:18 AM
9
09
18
AM
PDT
And it is just dawning on me that you are emphatically, though not knowingly, stating that you don't believe in morality on any level; everything goes. How so? In trying to prove your point, you are actually saying that everything every society ever did (or is doing or will do) was moral, because obviously, they did it, and they wouldn't have done it if they didn't believe it was moral, which alone makes it moral. I.E., everything goes. Now, the gulf between us is that, while the objectivist says objective morality actually exists, we do not claim that every society, even if they know that objective moral law perfectly, lives up to it.Brent
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
08:50 AM
8
08
50
AM
PDT
Zachriel, You're late to the punch. I've already said flatly that, yes, to them (pick any of the examples above), they believed (meaning by rationalization) they were acting morally. There yet remains the question of whether they ACTUALLY acted morally. Now I can sit here and say "NO! They didn't", and you are going to tell me an assertion is not proof. But you are sitting here saying "Yes! They did", and likewise your assertion is not proof. You are just asserting your point without showing anything. I said above that, the 'white man' and the Nazi believed they were within moral bounds (but through rationalization), and yet they are without excuse. We are only talking about equality in application of the moral law, not about the essence of it. For, even the societies who practiced such atrocities as child sacrifice still had a moral intuition that said they should not be selfish and "sacrifice more than their share, leaving their neighbors with no one to sacrifice." That is sickening to put it that way (I hope you agree), but the point remains; even those societies will show they know the moral law. I'm sure they knew they were acting wickedly even as they sacrificed their children. You do to, right? Here is a case to prove it. Think of a murderous drug cartel. Do you really think that they believe they are acting morally? Their lives are totally enmeshed in murder, lying, stealing, etc. In their society, literally, they are within their "societal code", if you will, in each of the evil things they do. Do YOU really believe that THEY actually believe they are doing no wrong? And next: Do they ACT as if they know they are doing wrong? They don't. They have rationalized their actions. Likewise, societies in the past (and even presently) rationalize their wicked behavior.Brent
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
08:42 AM
8
08
42
AM
PDT
"Do to others what you want them to do to you". Is an objective morality.logically_speaking
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
kairosfocus: On the way home from school or on orders of kings and priests of Molech or whoever makes utterly no difference. If child sacrifice was considered a moral duty, then it answers your question above, “No, it’s not wrong. In fact, it’s the right thing to do!”Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:50 AM
7
07
50
AM
PDT
Z, kindly cf just above. On the way home from school or on orders of kings and priests of Molech or whoever makes utterly no difference. And, self sacrifice of soldiers fighting in what they credibly believe is a just cause is a lesser of evils in the face of say a Schicklegruber talking about German cats and Polish Mice. They failed, but in initially cracking Enigma, opened the way to victory. And such is utterly different from soldiers trying to plead that orders are orders in the face of evidence that they murdered millions of Poles [half the Jewish side of the holocaust and two million other Poles out of was it 20 millions, and add in 25 million Russians (using terms loosely) by far and away most not on the battlefield]. Failure to discern such is telling. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:46 AM
7
07
46
AM
PDT
Timmy: Attempting to explain genuine morality by way of group status only demonstrates that group status is indefinite and meaningless. Not meaningless to those who belong to groups. People often have a strong affinity for their memberships, whether national, political, religious, military, even athletic. Timmy: The explanatory power of “morality equals in-group/out-group because evolution” falls apart when it comes to the ascendancy of Christianity civilization, because 1) Christianity completely ignores group status “love your enemy”, 2) completely ignores self-interest “turn the other cheek”, and 3) demonstrates through its meteoric rise that humans have indeed been programmed with objective morality. Christianity is about salvation, so you forgive your enemy for your own sake. However, it extends in-group status based on a set of beliefs. This led to numerous wars between Christian sects, not to mention persecution of the Jews. Timmy: It won because it appealed to that objective moral programming, which is apparently very strong when compared with self-interest. We agree that people have a strong moral sense. This doesn't always lead to the results you prefer, however. Furthermore, even if humans shared the same moral beliefs, that doesn't make it objective, but simply a shared trait.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:44 AM
7
07
44
AM
PDT
MT, did you see the slip-slide switcheroo again? What is CONSIDERED moral is not what is moral. Just as what is CONSIDERED true is not what is true. The underlying issue is you have likely decided a priori that there are no moral truths so all that is left is opinion. So, if you don't mind: do moral truths exist? In particular, is it true that it is evil to kidnap, sexually assault and asphyxiate a young child for pleasure? I suggest to you that if you hold there are no moral truths, that implies the frank answer is no, it is not true that this deed is wrong. The implications of such a view are precisely the opening the door for nihilism and the reductio of introducing general delusion into thought-life that I have already highlighted. The case -- a real one -- also exposes the moral blindness that passes for enlightenment in our day. Let me clip from an excerpt above [in a course unit I taught some years back] due to Clarke and Rakestraw, which I doubt you and other objectors took time to read:
Principles are broad general guidelines that all persons ought to follow. Morality is the dimension of life related to right conduct. It includes virtuous character and honorable intentions as well as the decisions and actions that grow out of them. Ethics on the other hand, is the [philosophical and theological] study of morality . . . [that is,] a higher order discipline that examines moral living in all its facets . . . . on three levels. The first level, descriptive ethics, simply portrays moral actions or virtues. A second level, normative ethics (also called prescriptive ethics), examines the first level, evaluating actions or virtues as morally right or wrong. A third level, metaethics, analyses the second . . . It clarifies the meaning of ethical terms and assesses the principles of ethical argument . . . . Some think, without reflecting on it, that . . . what people actually do is the standard of what is morally right . . . [But, what] actually happens and what ought to happen are quite different . . . . A half century ago, defenders of positivism routinely argued that descriptive statements are meaningful, but prescriptive statements (including all moral claims) are meaningless . . . In other words, ethical claims give no information about the world; they only reveal something about the emotions of the speaker . . . . Yet ethical statements do seem to say something about the realities to which they point. “That’s unfair!” encourages us to attend to circumstances, events, actions, or relationships in the world. We look for a certain quality in the world (not just the speaker’s mind) that we could properly call unfair. [Readings in Christian Ethics, Vol. 1: Theory and Method. (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker, 2002), pp. 18 – 19.]
I again remind, the idea of an ugly unbridgeable gulch between our inner mental life and the world of objective reality of things in themselves is self-refuting, though subtly so. To claim we have no knowledge of the external world actually claims high confidence in several knowledge claims about that world. We are back to the problem that if conscience is delusional in telling us we are under moral government, then that injects general delusion into mind. And there are no firewalls, the responsible, rational mind would be fatally undermined. Reductio. Let us go elsewhere and build afresh on sounder footing. Starting with, we have no better reason to doubt conscience in general than reasoning or perception and consciousness. And, we will not burn down the life of the mind to please those who refuse to acknowledge that the Is grounding OUGHT may be One utterly unpalatable to them. KFkairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:39 AM
7
07
39
AM
PDT
Box: “kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school” Heh. So you're problem is with the "on the way home from school" part? Would on the way to the temple to watch the human sacrifices be more acceptable? Seriously, the whole point is that there are differences in moral behavior. Today, people send their kids to school. Yesterday, the family packed a picnic lunch to watch them hang a horse thief.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Box: “kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school” Heh. So you're problem is with the "on the way home from school" part? Would on the way to the temple to watch the human sacrifices be more acceptable? Seriously, the whole point is that there are differences in moral behavior. Today, people send their kids to school. Yesterday, the family packed a picnic lunch to watch them hang a horse thief.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Zachriel: Attempting to explain genuine morality by way of group status only demonstrates that group status is indefinite and meaningless. The explanatory power of "morality equals in-group/out-group because evolution" falls apart when it comes to the ascendancy of Christianity civilization, because 1) Christianity completely ignores group status "love your enemy", 2) completely ignores self-interest "turn the other cheek", and 3) demonstrates through its meteoric rise that humans have indeed been programmed with objective morality. Contrast with the various fake "moral systems" humans have experienced, which can be reduced to group status/self-interest: the one moral system which throws group status out the window is the one that won. It won because it appealed to that objective moral programming, which is apparently very strong when compared with self-interest.Timmy
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:31 AM
7
07
31
AM
PDT
Zac,
Box: I dare you to present a world view that answers Kairosfocus’s question with “No, it’s not wrong”.
Zac: We already did. It’s called child sacrifice, which was once considered not only morally acceptable, but a moral duty. Those people answered “No, it’s not wrong. In fact, it’s the right thing to do!”
Religious child sacrifice - however depraved - does not equate to "kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school". So no, you did not present a world view that answers Kairosfocus’s question with “No, it’s not wrong”. Of course you are fully aware of the fact that you did not. When will you start to debate honestly?Box
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:23 AM
7
07
23
AM
PDT
F/N: Backdrop https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/on-the-reasonableness-and-importance-of-the-inherently-good-creator-god-a-necessary-and-maximally-great-being/kairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Zac @ 148,
They would would disagree, saying they were being sincerely devout. You certainly reject their view, confirming that what is considered moral depends on social context.
KF, note that what zac says is true, and that is exactly what Mackie's Argument from Relativity is.Me_Think
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:18 AM
7
07
18
AM
PDT
kairosfocus: Z, child sacrifice was advocated and practised by depraved communities They would would disagree, saying they were being sincerely devout. You certainly reject their view, confirming that what is considered moral depends on social context.Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:11 AM
7
07
11
AM
PDT
MT: Let's read, for starters:
Mackie’s argument aims at establishing moral relativism by stripping Realism of the objective basis of moral grounding. A general immediate response to his argument from the Realist side would be that diversity shows widespread confusion but does not as much as touch the objectivity of values. The argument from queerness would be dropped as not too impressive for all it eventually does is show why Philosophy is a complicated and sophisticated field. Out of more specific philosophical frameworks Davidson might insist that all communicators share by and large agreement, deeming the argument from diversity powerless. He might also acknowledge that objective values can sound like a queer proposition that is hard to trace “out there” but that this is only due to the Holistic structure of contingent abstract concepts. Putnam, adhering to the law of the excluded middle and to an internally realist perspective, would also counter the argument from relativity on the grounds that many false theories that seem to fit the world are acceptable as false without harming the claim for one true theory. The fact that our assessments are clouded by our point of view only grants diversity of assessments as much as diversity of points of view but does not carry any claim for truth; the fact that everyone is still running around in circles, unable to find true objective values, does not prove that there aren’t any, it just proves people have a hard time trying to be objective.
KF PS: For afters try here.kairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:07 AM
7
07
07
AM
PDT
Z, child sacrifice was advocated and practised by depraved communities, indeed it is argued that by doing the utterly repugnant they proved their loyalties to their gods. And yes, conscience can be benumbed, as is quite evident in our day with hundreds of millions of victims of abortion effectively on demand. That's one reason why objective foundational moral principles are so vital . . . they are the basis for reformation. KF PS: I hardly need to remind you of judge Jackson's retort to the attempt of Nazi officers to plead that relative to community standards and orders of duly appointed powers, they acted legitimately in what they did. Namely, that there is a known higher, even transcendent law of our nature that stands above and judges man-made laws.kairosfocus
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
07:01 AM
7
07
01
AM
PDT
KF @ 131, The objections to argument from relativity are pretty weak.The author just says 'It'(objective way) is misunderstood. Where is the proof that 'it' is objective?:
But if you acknowledge that beliefs heavily influence our evaluative concepts, it is plausible to say that moral disagreements can stem from seemingly contradicting or inadequate evidence, leaving the attacked objectivity in tact under the Realist view that variations only prove that many are not getting it right. “It” being the objective way true morality is.
As for Argument from Queerness, he says he hasn't figured what objective might be:
I would here claim that since values are internally human, the “objective” moral truth would be the one that best fits human needs, even if we are still far from figuring out what might that be
Me_Think
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:56 AM
6
06
56
AM
PDT
Box: I dare you to present a world view that answers Kairosfocus’s question with “No, it’s not wrong”. We already did. It's called child sacrifice, which was once considered not only morally acceptable, but a moral duty. Those people answered "No, it's not wrong. In fact, it's the right thing to do!" We've provided other examples. Mongols slaughtered the men, and took the women. This wasn't for self-defense, but because they wanted to conquer the weak and take what they wanted. "That is good! That is good."Zachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:51 AM
6
06
51
AM
PDT
Zac: So to answer kairosfocus’s question, “Would it be wrong to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school?”, the answer is, according to your evaluation, “It depends.”
Sigh. You have also failed to understand the point of KF's example: it is context (world view) independent. So no, that would not be my evaluation at all. KF's example attempts to explain to the blind that there is a limit to what world view can do. If you still don't get it, I dare you to present a world view that answers Kairosfocus's question with "No, it's not wrong".Box
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:46 AM
6
06
46
AM
PDT
Box: Suppose that world view informs the Mayas that human sacrifice – though in itself reprehensible – is necessary for survival of the community. That was their belief. So to answer kairosfocus's question, "Would it be wrong to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school?", the answer is, according to your evaluation, "It depends." Box: Completely missing the point presented by Brent. Why is it that everything has to be spelled out to you? We understood the point fine, and it leads to saying that the morality of child sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, and enslaving women are context dependent.
Mongol General: Hao! Dai ye! We won again! This is good, but what is best in life? Mongol: The open steppe, fleet horse, falcons at your wrist, and the wind in your hair. Mongol General: Wrong! Conan! What is best in life? Conan: Crush your enemies. See them driven before you. Hear the lamentations of their women. Mongol General: That is good! That is good.
There are commonalities in human experience. The moral sense is innate in humans, and is thought to have evolved to enhance social cohesion. That's why it is often expressed in terms of the in-group and out-group dynamic. It's okay to kill the enemy, but not one of your own. It's okay to sacrifice a child for the greater good of the community. Human morality is dependent on the human perspective, and sentient mantises would reach different moral conclusions. http://tinyurl.com/sentientmantisesZachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:33 AM
6
06
33
AM
PDT
Zac,
Brent: Morality has not changed.
Zac: Human sacrifice used to be acceptable. Now it’s not.
Completely missing the point presented by Brent. Why is it that everything has to be spelled out to you? Ok here goes again ... Suppose that world view informs the Mayans that human sacrifice - though in itself reprehensible - is necessary for survival of the community. IOW morality has not changed (Brent's point), but world view did. Secondly, is it not acceptable today to "sacrifice" young men (soldiers) for the benefit of the society as a whole?Box
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:23 AM
6
06
23
AM
PDT
Brent: Morality has not changed. Human sacrifice used to be acceptable. Now it's not. Brent: Treating the ‘negro’ as inferior, for instance, was a simple result of “believing” “facts” that were not facts, i.e., that they were actually inferior. And the Holocaust was justified as self-defense of the German state, so per your evaluation they were moral, just misguided. Every society has morality. That's because humans are social organisms, and the moral sense evolved so as to create social cohesion. That doesn't make it objective. It's still dependent on the human perspective, and sentient mantises would reach different moral conclusions. http://tinyurl.com/sentientmantises It's also dependent on the social context, as history shows. kairosfocus: Would it be wrong to kidnap, bind, torture, sexually assault and asphyxiate a child on the way home from school? At one time, child sacrifice was morally acceptable, even a moral duty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sacrificeZachriel
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
06:09 AM
6
06
09
AM
PDT
Thanks, Box. That's a great way to put it.Brent
January 30, 2015
January
01
Jan
30
30
2015
04:58 AM
4
04
58
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 8

Leave a Reply