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Cocktails! falsifying Darwinism via falsifying the geological “column”

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There is the forgotten book Shattering the Myths of Darwinism written by a non-creationist agnostic Richard Milton. Milton expressed his skepticism of mainstream claims of the old-age of the fossil record. His work further motivated me toward the idea that there could an empirically driven critique of the accepted ages of the fossils.

This is a short bio of Milton:

Richard Milton is a science journalist and design engineer based in London. He is a member of Mensa, the international high-IQ society, and writes a column for Mensa Magazine. He has been a member of the Geologists’ Association for twenty years, and did extensive geological research for this book. He has been featured on the BBC, NBC, and other television networks.

Like the agnostic Denton, Milton seems to draw much admiration from creationists.

The fact Milton was an agnostic suggested to me that considerations of facts and following the evidence wherever it leads might lead one to a different conclusion than the accepted mainstream view of fossil ages. One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.

But what about radiometric dating? That serious issue will be covered in another post, but suffice to say, on evidential grounds alone, it seems there are serious unresolved conflicts. If physics and chemistry are invoked to defend the old ages of fossils, physics and chemistry can also be invoked to falsify it. Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries.

My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.

We have the conceptual notion of a geological “column”. The idea is that if you dig a hole, you are essentially traversing down a conceptual column that provides a recorded history of life. Conceptually this is depicted in the following image:

geological column

In such a column, older fossils are buried beneath younger fossils. Even supposing this is a reasonable interpretation, it does not immediately affix the ages of the fossils. One fossil may be older than another, but it doesn’t immediately tell us that the oldest fossils are 500 million years old! So for the sake of argument, let us assume that on average deeper means older, what can we say about the oldest layer based on empirical considerations?

When I asked a geologist common sense questions about the process of fossilization, he threw a fit. I asked “how are fossils fossilized?” I pointed out if you leave a dead organism out in the open it decomposes or is eaten by scavengers. So really good fossilization can’t happen by ordinary processes but rather by catastrophic process such as rapid burial, and often a burial that involves water. He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial. He didn’t like where the discussion seemed to be headed. 🙂

Here are the boring considerations. Suppose we have intact geological column which can be found in one location such that you get to dig and find fossils in the order prescribed by the diagram above (and there are some who argue there is no such place on Earth, only in the conceptual imaginations of paleontologists). Suppose we give a generous height to this column of 200 miles spanning a history of 500 million years, what would be the average rate of deposition (accumulation of sediments on top of each other). I calculated that it would be .667 millimeters a year.

The geologist then fumed at my figure of a 200-mile deep geological column and argued it could be less than that. Of course, he didn’t realize he actually strengthened my argument. So I said, “fine, 14 miles, since that’s the farthest man has ever drilled into the Earth, that yields a deposition rate of .046 millimeters a year,” which is about half the thickness of a sheet of paper. That would mean a dinosaur that is lying 5 meters high will take about 100,000 years to bury, and thus it becomes very doubtful that it will fossilize because it is exposed to scavengers and decomposition and other environmental effects.

From Darwin-loving pages of Wiki we read:

Fossilization processes proceed differently according to tissue type and external conditions.

Permineralization is a process of fossilization that occurs when an organism is buried. The empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater. Minerals precipitate from the groundwater, occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decay process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

What? The organism needs to buried with sediments and water quickly. Of note, many layers of the geological “column” indicated mass extinction events, such that it could also be interpreted to be rapid simultaneous burial over large geographical regions by water and sediments, if not rapid simultaneous burial over the entire globe! But whatever the details, the fact remains that large sections of the geological column that contain fossils, could not, even in principle be assembled over millions of years. At best we have one catastrophe that creates a bed of fossils followed by a long era of stasis (no activity) and then followed another catastrophe, etc.

The geologist fumed, and said something to the effect, “You’re analysis is silly. Deposition doesn’t happen at steady rates like you imply.” Of course he was fuming so badly, he didn’t realize he was making my point, namely most of the fossil rich geological column didn’t take hundreds of millions of years to form. 🙂 Steady deposition could not have created the fossil record even in principle and even as Darwin and Lyell supposed. At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!

For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.

Recording of geological history via a process of slow, steady change is represented by a school of thought known as uniformitarianism (founded by Lyell). In contrast, recording of geological history by a process of catastrophes is known as catastrophism. The recording process for the fossil layers based on the considerations above, is then mostly the product of catastrophes. This catastrophist school of thought was highly anti-Darwinian:

Lyell encapsulated his philosophy in a doctrine later called “uniformitarianism”—a complex set of beliefs centered on the catechism that “the present is the key to the past.”….Lyell viewed this principle as a methodological reform to eliminate fanciful (and quasi-theological) “catastrophic” causes and to render the full magnitude of past change by the slow and steady accumulation of ordinary small changes (deposition and erosion grain by grain) extended over vast times.

And yet, from two different standpoints (theoretical and empirical), Lyell’s credo makes little sense, and its status as dogma can only reflect our social and psychological preferences. First, what is the probability that our tiny slice of observable time should include the full range of potential processes that might alter the earth? What about big, but perfectly natural, events that occur so infrequently that we have only a remote chance of observing even one occurrence in historical time? Second, how can Lyellian gradualism account for the fundamental fact of paleontology–extensive, and appparently rapid, faunal turnovers (“mass extinctions”) occurring several times in the history of life? (Traditional explanations over at least a few million years and attributing them to over intensification of ordinary causes–changes in temperature and sea level, for example–but the arguments have always seemed forced.)

Yet, until recently, extinction received much less attention than its obvious prominence warranted. In an overly Darwinian world of adaptation, gradual change, and improvement, extinction seemed, well, so negative–the ultimate failure, the flip side of evolution’s “real” work, something to be acknowledge but not intensely discussed in polite company.

This odd neglect has been reversed in the last decade…the primary architect of this shift is my brilliant colleague David M. Raup….Dave Raup is the best of the best.

Stephen J. Gould
Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup

Amen brother Gould!

But that is not the end of problems, only the beginning. We have the paradoxical situation where the fossil record accumulates, but then this must happen against the contrary forces of erosion. Thus, the fossil record must:
1. fortuitously form one fossil layer via a fortuitous catastrophe
2. have that layer separated from the layer above it by a long era of stasis (no activity)
3. then another fortuitous catastrophe creates the next layer
4. etc.

All this must happen while miraculously avoiding the problem of erosion. This leads to a mechanical contradiction. Is this contradiction resolved? No, just obfuscated away and swept under the rug and defended by ridicule of those who would dare to ask common sense questions.

Ariel Roth of Geoscience Research points out that reasonable estimates of erosion rates of 6 centimeters/1000 year would wipe out not only the geological “column” but even the continents above sea level in short order.

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma [million years]
….
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
….
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

On top of that, why aren’t the oceans saturated solutions of salt and minerals? If rain has been pouring on land and pumping salt and other minerals into the oceans, why aren’t they saturated? That complication may be resolvable, but one does not get the feeling the questions are even welcome, much less attempts at resolution.

When I’ve asked geologists, PandasThumbsters about these difficulties, I get just get rude rebuffs. I think to myself, “if not for my sake, won’t they want to answer these questions for the sake of curious aspiring Darwinists?”. Maybe they won’t answer these questions because they have none.

NOTES:
1. The title contains the word: “Cocktail” to emphasize the speculative, informal nature of this essay. I elaborate more about the relevance of such topics to ID in The relevance of YEC to ID

2. here is the link to Ariel Roth’s paper:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm

and a long excerpt

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma. In other words, at this rate the present continents would be eroded over 340 times in the 3500 Ma assumed for the age of the continents. The observation by the famous geologist Powell that “mountains cannot long remain mountains” certainly seems appropriate. The estimate of 10 Ma given above has been a well-accepted figure (Schumm 1963) and has subsequently been referred to in a number of publications including Dott and Batten (1971, p. 136) and Garrels and Mackenzie (1971, pp. 114-115). Earlier, Dole and Stabler (1909) gave figures indicating that it would take about twice as long. Judson (1968), while correcting for human activity, suggests 34 Ma for complete erosion of the continents. None of these figures does much to alleviate the discrepancy which is especially significant when one considers mountain ranges such as the Caledonides of western Europe and the Appalachians of North America which are assumed to be several hundred Ma old. Why are these ranges here today if they are so old?
Rates of erosion are greater in high mountains and lower in regions of less relief (Ahnert 1970, Bloom 1971, Ruxton and McDougall 1967, and Schumm 1963). Ruxton and McDougall (1967) report erosion rates of 8 cm/1000 years near sea level and 52 cm/1000 years at an altitude of 975 m in the Hydrographers Range in Papua. Rates of 92 cm/1000 years are reported for the Guatemala-Mexico Border Mountains (Corbel 1959), 100 cm/1000 years for the Himalayas (Menard 1961), and in the Mt. Rainier region of Washington Mills (1976) documents erosion rates of up to 800 cm/1000 years. Probably the highest recorded regional rate is 1900 cm/1000 years from a volcano in New Guinea (Ollier and Brown 1971).
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
Other attempts to reconcile average present erosion rates to geologic time include suggestions that man’s activities, especially agricultural practices, have increased the rate of erosion, making present rates uncharacteristically rapid. Such an explanation seems inadequate to account for a several hundred-fold discrepancy. Gilluly et al. (1968, p. 79) propose that farming may have increased average erosion rates by a factor of less than 2, while Judson (1968) suggests about 2½ times. Others have suggested that the climate of the past may have been more dry or the relief flatter, resulting in slower erosion rates. We now have some interior basins such as central Australia where there is no drainage and no removal of sediment, but these are exceptions. The lush vegetation evident in significant sections of the fossil record suggests at least some wetter conditions in the past. Characteristically, current erosion rates in hot, dry lowlands with gradients 0.001 or less, are not sufficiently slower. Corbel (1959) indicates rates of 1.2 cm/1000 years for the hot dry plains of the Mediterranean region and New Mexico. The lowest rates found in a study of 20 river basins (Ahnert 1970) was 1.6 cm/1000 years for basins in Texas and England. These slower rates do not solve a discrepancy of several hundred-fold, and one would have to postulate different past conditions for a major area of the earth during a significant proportion of earth history to provide a resolution to the problem.
A different context can serve to emphasize the question of rates of erosion. If it is assumed that 2.5 km of continents have been eroded in the past (our present continents average about one fourth that thickness above sea level) and if it is assumed that erosion proceeds at the rate of 3 cm/1000 years (half of the presently observed rate to correct for the effects of modern agricultural pursuits), then it would take about 83 Ma to erode a 2.5 km thickness of continental crust. In other words, at present rates of erosion, continents 2.5 km thick could have been eroded 42 times during the assumed 3500 Ma age for the continents, or continents 106 km thick would have been eroded once. There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

Comments
The graves in my local English churchyards disappear under vegetation in less than one hundred years thanks to the wet climate favouring grass growth which attracts birds looking for seeds and small mammals seeking food and both fertilising as they go. Thus England is elevating while USA is sinking or eroding simply because much of it lacks the rain and seed to starts growth which will attract wildlife which will fertilise and spread the growth. God created earthworms especially to turn dead vegetation and animals droppings into fertile soil and He put aquatic worms in the bottom of the seas to recycle all the detritus that drifts down. To stop America blowing away just needs some earthworms?r1xlx
November 2, 2014
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This is a great YEC video by Ian Juby on falsifying the evolutionary geologic column. Love this guy's work. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTWZJBXAZJAlifepsy
July 6, 2013
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JLAfan2001 @ 83 Sorry, missed this:
Jguy Although I’m not convinced, you do bring up an interesting point. If the DNA is so similar, why is there a huge difference between us and the chimps? Would 6 million years be enough time for the differences to occur and why only 1% in that time?
If you consider Haldane's Dilemma, which Water ReMine added to over the past years, it's not possible to fix that much genetic change into the population in 6 million years. I think Sal described this once as a 'speed limit' for evolution. That limit would be a maximum of 1667 genetic mutations could be fixed into a supposed population since chimp and human had some supposed common ancestor to the time of modern humans. Keep in mind that that figure was calculated while giving the evolution myth benefit of the doubt - i.e. it's therefore a conservative high estimate. This is why if similarity drops to 70%, it will be an absolute death knell to Darwinism (as we know it). What I predict would happen is that Darwinist will try to label it all as junk. However, that will be stymied by further data from the ENCODE project. It's a really bad time to be a Darwinist.
But if the DNA falls to 70%, wouldn’t it be feasible that we are related to them now because the lower percentage would explain the difference? The problem now arises that either way relations can’t be proven which seems to create a paradox of sorts.
Yeah, 70% would make more sense for trying to account for the observed differences in chimps and humans. However, for reasons stated above, it will ruin Darwinism. Expect to see very high resistance to such published lowering of the similarities. BTW: Side note. In the book 'Signs of Intelligence', Dr. Wells wrote an interesting chapter on DNA and development. Apparently, DNA is not enough to explain development... as illustrated in one experiment he described. Where I think a lizards DNA was substituted into a chicken egg. The morphological development followed the species of the egg, not the source of the DNA as Hollywood movies would probably lead us to think. And it developed only so far as there was available common/correct protein coding to progress in development. The creature apparently died. He provides other reasons and evidence why/how the structure of the egg itself contributed to morphological development.JGuy
May 31, 2013
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Sal, Looking at the schedule fo the ICC. This looked intriguing:
Seeing Distant Stars in Near-Real Time Mark Amunrud What is space? Leucippus and Empedocles disagreed (Lederman, 1993). Leibniz and Newton differed (Alexander, 1956). Einstein disputed with himself (Einstein, 1920). The issue is not resolved today (Smolin, 2001). This paper presents a new hypothesis about space: Gravity Warps Paired Spaces (GWPS). GWPS originates from Biblical descriptions of space. The Bible describes paired spaces that were created and stretched out. This indicates that space is a physical substance and consists of small pieces - paired spaces. If space consists of pieces that can stretch in size, the number of spaces per meter can change. How can space be measured consistently? GWPS suggests that science has overlooked the fundamental measurement of space, the intrinsic measurement - counting the spaces. In one sense this new measurement does not change anything. All existing measurements are still valid. On the other hand, this new measurement affects every area of science because existing measurements of space are not consistent. This is a paradigm shift. GWPS agrees with Relativity that the speed of light is constant. However, GWPS claims the units should be 'spaces per second' not 'meters per second'. This change makes no difference in measurements on earth. However, for distant stars it reduces the light travel time by seven orders of magnitude.
http://creationicc.org/more.php?pk=19 This idea has some parts (e.g. units of space) that remind me very much of my intuitions regarding space. It'll be interesting to read more on that.JGuy
May 31, 2013
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Sal @ 133
[...] Btw, thanks for your friendship and support all these years from days at ARN to today. If you decide to go to the ICC: http://creationicc.org/ feel free to look me up. I’m one of the few non-white guys there, and you have my photo here:
Thanks for the kind words. Likewise, and it's been nice, fun & helpful reading your comments over the past 8? or 9? years. And thanks for the invite to meet-up. I'm sure I could find ya if I were there. Unfortunately, I think I'll be working in Japan in September, and Philadelphia is a bit out of my neighborhood...but you never know. :D The conference looks like it will be a lot of fun. Send me an email if you're in the San Diego area anytime by chance. God bless you too.JGuy
May 31, 2013
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The Miller-Urey experiment has a soft place in my heart.
Urey was a Nobel Prize winner in physics for his discovery of deuterium. When his name was mentioned in class, my eyes almost popped out. Wow! I didn't know Urey was independently famous. No doubt, Urey's reputation (even though Miller did all the work) was leveraged to make the theory popular. However, Urey conceded that he found it incredible that life could form from lifeless chemical, but there seemed no other explanation than a chemical origin! The debate over experiment has a soft place in a lot of people's hearts, especially for people like me that once accepted the inflated claims. UDAT Thanks for that quote from Robert Shapiro. Great info!scordova
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan2001:
I appreciate the help guys but this stuff is just way over my head. I think the main reason why I am leaning towards Darwinian evolution is because of mainstream science accepts it otherwise it would be rejected.
But you're falling victim to faulty thinking. Truth isn't determined by how many people believe a particular concept. That's the logical fallacy of jumping on the bandwagon. It's used extensively in advertising ("everyone loves to eat at Joe's, for example). Mainstream science may accept Darwinian evolution as being true, but just remember than mainstream science also accepted phlogiston, bloodletting, and Piltdown Man.
I know that’s a pretty ignorant reason. I just can’t believe that all the independant lines of evidence pointing in one direction is false.
Good, you're thinking for yourself. And you realize that you might be wrong. Like I stated before, it's not necessarily the evidence but rather the interpretation of the evidence; that, to me, is the real issue.
It’s too much to be a coincidence. If that’s the case, why not challenge everything in science like the earth’s age or the size of the universe or the big bang or the fine-tuning.
Everything in science can and should be challenged; science isn't dogma.
Why only accept what falls in line with theology but reject what doesn’t? I am open to a higher power starting the laws that lead up to life and to us but how does what test that?
You can't. If God exists and is a spirit, then you can't perform experiments to test his power. Then again, I can't experimentally test to see how the first fish evolved legs and walked out of the ocean, either. Science, to a degree, is built on faith (or trust, if you prefer). Scientists trust that the natural laws will perform as they always have, i.e., gravity will work today like it did when Newton formulated his laws.
I can only trust that you guys have done your research the best that you can and have found evolution wanting but I have to side with the people who have been trained in this and study it everyday. I think Dennett is right. Darwinism is the universal acid that killed God and humanity.
I would encourage you to keep an open mind and examine both sides of the issue.Barb
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan2001
I appreciate the help guys but this stuff is just way over my head. I think the main reason why I am leaning towards Darwinian evolution is because of mainstream science accepts it otherwise it would be rejected. I know that’s a pretty ignorant reason. I just can’t believe that all the independant lines of evidence pointing in one direction is false.
You made two points here. One that the main reason you accept it is because mainstreamers accept it. The other is that all the independent lines of evidence point in that direction. I don't want to come off as critical, but I just want to probe this a bit, if you don't mind... If you believe all the evidence point towards it, then why would your main reason for accepting it be that mainstreamers accept it? If I believed all the evidence pointed at it, that would be my main reason. Think about that a bit. Or perhaps, you think all the evidences points towards Darwinism because you might hear mainstreamers making that claim. I'm willing to bet that if you listed bullets of the top 5 to 10 lines of evidence, you will find that they will not hold up to scrutiny using simple reasoning.JGuy
May 31, 2013
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I think Dennett is right. Darwinism is the universal acid that killed God and humanity.
Common Descent is NOT the same as Darwinism. Darwinism needs common descent, but common descent doesn't need Darwinism. There are a notable minority of evolutionists that think Darwin was wrong. ID critques Darwinism, creationism critiques both Darwinism and common descent. Darwinism can be falsified without falsifying common descent. The Felsenstein thread is one example of attempting to falsify Darwinism but not necessarily common descent. I'll have more threads where I attempt to falsify Darwinism but not common descent.
I can only trust that you guys have done your research the best that you can and have found evolution wanting but I have to side with the people who have been trained in this and study it everyday.
That's why I encourage you to talk to them. And the more you learn the more intelligent questions you can ask. What you may find in terms of their ability to answer may shock you. Consider the Felsenstein thread, Matzke is a professional biologist, did you notice his reluctance to volunteer an answer. :-) Now, you might say Matzke left because UD behaves badly toward critics, but you can find out for yourself by getting the courage to talk to them. Notice carefully if they try to confuse you, talk over your head, make you feel like your uneducated and stupid. Look at how Matzke responded to me versus the way I and JoeCoder tried to sift through the data and even old scientific papers which we struggle to understand and decipher. IMHO, trying to find evidence of Creation is a big leap. Try something smaller like the origin of life. Ask a question like this: "how can lifeless chemicals spontaneously assemble into a living form". Ask them. See how they treat you and see if they give a good answer. If the stuff is too technical, what better way to figure it out than to learn. They pulled the usual stunt of linking me to irrelevant papers and throwing as much complicated vocabulary so as to confuse me. They didn't count on the fact I was persistent and willing to learn. :-) The process of learning will be hard but you can learn if you really want to. As I said, if there are more pressing things in your life, I totally respect that. These aren't easy topics and studying them takes away from practical living. And by the way, I can almost guarantee you, many biologists are so specialized they know little about the topics we talk about at UD. I mingled with the bio faculty at one university and asked if they taught population genetics (the subject of the Felsenstein thread), and they said, "No, it's hard to find biologists who can do the math!" :-) You asked what qualifies some of those at UD to argue these topics, one thing is the collective engineering talent at UD that has a modest math background. Most engineers have a better understanding of math than most professional biologists, and that's the crux of a lot of arguments. Did you see the Cytochrome-C sequences. Careful study of that sequence with a little math will lead you to conclude we probably didn't descend from fish. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Rather than arguing against universal common descent, how about starting with the question of the origin of life. That is a far easier topic. And finally, Dennett was wrong. I'll have more to say in other threads, but several respectable evolutionists like Allen Orr thinks Dennett's book should be called "Dennett's strange idea". If you didn't know it, Dennett is a philosopher, not a scientist! I have more scientific background than he does and that's not saying much!!! See for yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dennettscordova
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan @ 107
If Neanderthals are essentially human, why would God let them go extinct if they were presumably made in his image? The same could be said for cro-magnon. Genesis just gets harder and harder to believe.
Among all the YEC that I'm aware of, so-called neanderthals were as human as any of us. Also, most that have looked into it any further probably find it likely that they were people that lived very long lives. This is consistent with the ages of the people that lived just after the flood. Ages in the several hundreds of years... lifespans decaying down over many subsequent generations closer to ages more like those we see today. http://www.amazon.com/Buried-Alive-Jack-Cuozzo/dp/0890512388 http://www.icr.org/article/neanderthal-were-human-babies/JGuy
May 31, 2013
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If I understand correctly, mtDNA Eve was older than Y-Chromosome Adam now you are saying that Adam is older than Eve?
Not quite, I'm saying the data is inconclusive and contradictory. If you take the observed rate of mtDNA mutation, mtEve lived about 6,000 years ago. If you assume radiometric dating is accurate then she lived 100-200k years ago. So either radiometric dating is wrong or molecular clocks are wrong, or both, and I don't know which. In comment 98 I offer some factors that would cause the Y-Adam date to be much older than it really is. But they're speculative and I don't have supporting evidence.JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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JoeCoder If I understand correctly, mtDNA Eve was older than Y-Chromosome Adam now you are saying that Adam is older than Eve? If Rana is correct, the average age of the two based on the clock is 150,000 years which lines up with the fossils. Do you agree with that? I appreciate the help guys but this stuff is just way over my head. I think the main reason why I am leaning towards Darwinian evolution is because of mainstream science accepts it otherwise it would be rejected. I know that's a pretty ignorant reason. I just can't believe that all the independant lines of evidence pointing in one direction is false. It's too much to be a coincidence. If that's the case, why not challenge everything in science like the earth's age or the size of the universe or the big bang or the fine-tuning. Why only accept what falls in line with theology but reject what doesn't? I am open to a higher power starting the laws that lead up to life and to us but how does what test that? I can only trust that you guys have done your research the best that you can and have found evolution wanting but I have to side with the people who have been trained in this and study it everyday. I think Dennett is right. Darwinism is the universal acid that killed God and humanity.JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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@BA77 I didn't like ENV's coverage of the beta-globin pseudogene because (as Coyne argues), even if a pseudogene's transcript is doing something, that still doesn't explain why it has a stop codon but is otherwise highly identical to protein coding genes in other animals. So even if has some remaining function, I don't think it defeats the argument for common descent. Rather, I think a better argument is to appeal to mutational hotspots causing the same mutation to arise independently in each lineage. For example here:
The 1-bp deletions [in yeast] localized to discrete hotspots, some of which were prominent both in the WT [wild-type] and in the MMR-defective [postreplicative mismatch repair defective] backgrounds
Phylogenists have no trouble invoking multiple independent but identical mutations as explanation when pseudogene patterns violate common descent. From a 2011 study:
If the inability to synthesize vitamin C is the assumed ancestral state, then the ability of synthesizing vitamin C has been reacquired four times and lost once. In contrast, if one assumes that the ability to synthesize vitamin C is ancestral in the Passeriformes, then the ability of synthesizing vitamin C has been reacquired three times and lost three times
JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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Of somewhat related note: Richard Dawkins claimed that the FOXP2 gene was among ‘the most compelling evidences’ for establishing that humans evolved from monkeys, yet, as with all the other evidences offered from Darwinists, once the FOXP2 gene was critically analyzed it fell completely apart as proof for human evolution: Dawkins Best Evidence (FOXP2 gene) Refuted - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfFZ8lCn5uU As well, the primary piece of evidence, at the Dover trial, trying to establish chimp human ancestry from SNP (Single Nuecleotide Polymorphism) evidence was overturned: Dover Revisited: With Beta-Globin Pseudogene Now Found to Be Functional, an Icon of the “Junk DNA” Argument Bites the Dust - Casey Luskin - April 23, 2013 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/an_icon_of_the_071421.htmlbornagain77
May 31, 2013
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@JLAfan2001 I agree with scordova. Don't trust us and don't trust those that disagree with us. Follow sources, take biology classes, keep lots of notes, and put it all together for yourself.JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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scordova wrote: It’s probably fair to say, the cytochrome-C comparison will hold very much true for most proteins, I’d hazard to guess in the ballpark of 98%, but you’d have to go through about 30,000 of these protein exercises to see it.
I think your numbers here are too high :)
83% of the 231 genes compared had differences that affected the amino acid sequence of the protein they encoded. And 20% showed “significant structural changes”. In addition, there were nearly 68,000 regions that were either extra or missing between the two sequences, accounting for around 5% of the chromosome. ... 'we have seen a much higher percentage of change than people speculated.' The researchers also carried out some experiments to look at when and how strongly the genes are switched on. 20% of the genes showed significant differences in their pattern of activity. Chimp chromosome creates puzzles, Nature, 2004
Note that they only compared 231 genes out of 20k+ total, and that this predates the sequencing of the chimp genome in 2005. The 83% difference means that at least one letter was different, so only those in the 20% category are significant changes. But:
"More than 6 percent of genes found in humans aren't found in any form in chimpanzees. There are over 1400 novel genes expressed in humans but not chimps." Jerry Coyne, Why Evolution is True, 2009
JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan2001 @140 Thank you, but I've actually read it before. I don't dispute anything Dr. Rana says about the Y-Adam dates--they're the most straightforward interpretation of the data and I don't know how to reconcile it with a YEC view. Warning, long rant on mtEve ahead: However on mtEve, what he doesn't tell you is that the observed mutation rate of mtDNA is 20 times faster than the values given by fossil dates, which puts mtEve at only several thousand years ago. As Ann Gibbons reported in Science:
Regardless of the cause, evolutionists are most concerned about the effect of a faster mutation rate. For example, researchers have calculated that "mitochondrial Eve"--the woman whose mtDNA was ancestral to that in all living people--lived 100,000 to 200,000 years ago in Africa. Using the new clock, she would be a mere 6000 years old. No one thinks that's the case, but at what point should models switch from one mtDNA time zone to the other?" Calibrating the Mitochondrial Clock, 1998
From there, hilarity ensues: 1. Talk Origin cites Mitochondrial genome variation and the origin of modern humans, Nature, 2000; as "more recent" evidence that mtEve lived a very long time ago, but they don't tell you that paper ignores the observed rate and simply goes back to comparing to chimp mtDNA to get a rate of 1.7 x 10^-8 substitutions per site per year. 2. Wikipedia actually cites the Ann Gibbons article above (source 28) for an ancient mtEve, even though it directly contradicts the sentence they cite it for. What on earth, right? Well, in 2010 we got the neanderthal genome, used fossil dates to estimate the sapian/neanderthal divergence at 500k years ago, counted the differences between our mitochondira, and came up with a mutation rate of 2.5 × 10^-8 mutations per site per year, reasonably close to the rate calibrated from chimps:
We assume this time [neanderthal divergence] to be about 511,000 years ago, based on Briggs et al. (2009) results, which are based on analysis including the information about the dating of the Neanderthal fossils. Combining Briggs et al. (2009) and Green et al. (2008) data and applying the infinitely many sites model, we calculate the rate of divergence for the complete mtDNA as ? = davg/Td(MN)?= 0.013/511,000 = 2.5 × 10^-8 mutations per nucleotide per year." Alternatives to the Wright–Fisher model: The robustness of mitochondrial Eve dating, Theoretical Population Biology, 2010
After this the carousel of data omission continues. ScienceDaily conclusively headlines Mother of All Humans Lived 200,000 Years Ago, not even mentioning that the rate was calibrated from neanderthal fossil dates or the contradiction with observed rates. But all during this time studies have continually put the actual observed mutation rate 20-50 times faster: A 2012 pedigree study put it 50 times faster than the 2010 fossil calibrated rate:
Estimates of mutation rates for the noncoding hypervariable Region I (HVR-I) of mitochondrial DNA vary widely, depending on whether they are inferred from phylogenies (assuming that molecular evolution is clock-like) or directly from pedigrees. All pedigree-based studies so far were conducted on populations of European origin. In this article, we analyzed 19 deep-rooting pedigrees in a population of mixed origin in Costa Rica. ... At the end of this procedure, we still observed a mutation rate equal to 1.24 × 10^-6, per site per year, i.e., at least threefold as high as estimates derived from phylogenies.
Conclusions: 1. I have no idea when mtEve lived and neither does anybody else. Either the fossil dates are grossly incorrect, molecular clocks are meaningless, or both. 2. In at least this area, there is a large disconnect between peer reviewed journal articles and how it is summarized in popular media.JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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Sal Forgive me but I’m really stupid when it comes to this. Are you saying that protein Cytochrome-C is evidence that we descended from chimpanzees? If so, this is one of the things I brought up as evidence for it and BA77 bombed me with links that go against it. Who do I trust?
At this stage I would encourage you to trust no one, not even yourself. Be skeptical, struggle to learn, struggle to understand. Now what can we actually say just looking at the data. Our Cytochrome-C proteins is 100% identical to that of a chimp and 91% similar to that of mouse. That is a fact, what it means is another thing. Do you at least agree this is a fact that our cytochrome-C proteins are 100% identical to chimps (and other apes) and 91% similar to a mouse? Now the question is did we evolve. To make things easy, let us assume we evolved. Assuming evolution is true, would you say then that the common ancestor of primates (chimps, humans, gorillas) is an ape since we share 100% similarity in cytochrome-c? It's probably fair to say, the cytochrome-C comparison will hold very much true for most proteins, I'd hazard to guess in the ballpark of 98%, but you'd have to go through about 30,000 of these protein exercises to see it. [There are some caveats which are topics for advanced discussions, but I'd like to keep things simple.] If you were a researcher assuming evolution, would you assume the ancestor of primates (humans, chimps, gorillas) is a mouse or something like a primate? Look at the data, ponder it. Ask, argue, challenge, be skeptical. Truth rarely is clear, and the lack of clarity, imho, is by design. You have to struggle hard to get close to it. I'm grateful you are taking the time to challenge and be skeptical and learn. And, frankly, I'd be delighted if you start asking evolutionists some of the question I suggest. Yes, indeed the creationists spin, and it's rather obvious I have a lot of resentment with my own family, but the other side spins as well. You won't see it until you scrutinize the facts. The facts will make things a little clearer, you won't have all the answers at the end of your quest, but you'll know more. Unfortunately, learning will come 1 inch at a time...but I'm glad you are asking.scordova
May 31, 2013
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@JLAfan2001 You have to figure out who you can trust. Both sides of the debate are equally overflowing with those that exaggerate claims. Tompkins tends to be in this camp, but unlike many of his outside-creation-journal claims, I don't yet know of a problem with his 70% paper. On genome similarities: 1. Keep in mind that scordova's numbers above are only for cytochrome C, which is about one ten-millionth of the total genome. It tends to be well conserved. 2. The new scientist mouse article is only talking about protein coding genes, which also tend to be more conserved and only constitute about 1.5% of the total genome. We now know it's incorrect to say anything outside of protein coding genes is junk. It also predates the publication of the full mouse genome by 7 months.JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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JoeCoder Thought you would like this article. What do you think? http://www.reasons.org/articles/when-did-mitochondrial-eve-and-y-chromosomal-adam-liveJLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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JoeCoder "Thompkins sure has a talent for spinning any discovery to somehow support YEC" This is what I was saying earlier. Creationists are the ones that spin the data to match their faith, not evolutionists. They can't be trusted and this is evidence of that. This is also why I think the new comparisons will not yield 70% similarities and the YEC will try to spin or misrepresent the data rather than admit they are wrong. Excerpt: Mice and men share about 97.5 per cent of their working DNA, just one per cent less than chimps and humans. The new estimate is based on the comparison of mouse chromosome 16 with human DNA. Previous estimates had suggested mouse-human differences as high as 15 per cent. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2352-just-25-of-dna-turns-mice-into-men.html Sal Forgive me but I'm really stupid when it comes to this. Are you saying that protein Cytochrome-C is evidence that we descended from chimpanzees? If so, this is one of the things I brought up as evidence for it and BA77 bombed me with links that go against it. Who do I trust?JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan2001, Now, given what I wrote above, you may wonder why I still accept creation. Before getting into that, you might be curious to see how I argued that we can't be descended from fish using data like I presented above. See: https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/taxonomic-nested-hierarchies-dont-support-darwinism/#comment-454760 Apologies for it being technical, but this is your chance to ask questions. I'm willing to answer to the best of my knowledge if you are willing to ask. I also invite you to ask evolutionists if the similarities are as I say.scordova
May 31, 2013
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JLAfan2001, Unlike many creationists, I'm not uncomfortable saying humans are close to chimps and rats in many ways. Creationists before Darwin saw that, and you can see it in your own eyes. Look how similar we are compared to chimps versus trees! Similarity depends on what you are looking at. A favorite comparison used by ID sympathizers (like Denton) and evolutionists alike is the protein Cytochrome-C. I gathered the following statistics just for you a few minutes ago from this website: http://www.uniprot.org/blast/uniprot/20130531706FSKUI3W?offset=50&sort=score Look at the percent resemblance between the protein in humans (homo sapiens) and other creatures. I highlighted humans, chimps, mice, and rats: Gorilla gorilla gorilla (Lowland gorilla) 100.0% Pan troglodytes (Chimpanzee) 100.0% Hylobates lar (Common gibbon) (White-handed gibbon) 100.0% Hylobates agilis (Agile gibbon) 100.0% Pongo sp. 100.0% Gorilla gorilla (western gorilla) 100.0% Pan paniscus (Pygmy chimpanzee) (Bonobo) 100.0% Homo sapiens (Human) 100.0% Pongo abelii (Sumatran orangutan) (Pongo pygmaeus abelii) 100.0% Pan troglodytes (Chimpanzee) 100.0% Homo sapiens (Human) 100.0% Gorilla gorilla gorilla (Lowland gorilla) 100.0% Macaca fascicularis (Crab-eating macaque) (Cynomolgus monkey) 99.0% Macaca mulatta (Rhesus macaque) 99.0% Lophocebus aterrimus (Black crested mangabey) (Cercocebus aterrimus) 99.0% Cercocebus galeritus (Tana river mangabey) 99.0% Cercopithecus cephus (Moustached monkey) 99.0% Papio anubis (Olive baboon) 99.0% Theropithecus gelada (Gelada baboon) 99.0% Mandrillus leucophaeus (Drill) (Papio leucophaeus) 99.0% Macaca sylvanus (Barbary macaque) 99.0% Macaca arctoides (Stump-tailed macaque) 99.0% Macaca cyclopis (Taiwan macaque) 99.0% Macaca nemestrina (Pig-tailed macaque) 99.0% Chlorocebus aethiops (Green monkey) (Cercopithecus aethiops) 99.0% Chlorocebus aethiops (Green monkey) (Cercopithecus aethiops) 99.0% ... Nasalis larvatus (Proboscis monkey) 99.0% ... Macaca fascicularis (Crab-eating macaque) (Cynomolgus monkey) 98.0% Papio hamadryas (Hamadryas baboon) 97.0% Macaca mulatta (Rhesus macaque) 96.0% Trachypithecus cristatus (Silvered leaf-monkey) (Presbytis cristata) 97.0% Ateles sp. (Spider monkey) 95.0% Macaca mulatta (Rhesus macaque) 95.0% Macaca fascicularis (Crab-eating macaque) (Cynomolgus monkey) 94.0% Heterocephalus glaber (Naked mole rat) 92.0% Tupaia chinensis (Chinese tree shrew) 91.0% Pongo abelii (Sumatran orangutan) (Pongo pygmaeus abelii) 94.0% Pongo abelii (Sumatran orangutan) (Pongo pygmaeus abelii) 94.0% Saimiri sciureus (Common squirrel monkey) 92.0% Brachyteles arachnoides (Southern muriqui) (Woolly spider monkey) 92.0% Ateles paniscus (Black spider monkey) (Red-faced black spider monkey) 92.0% Saimiri sciureus (Common squirrel monkey) 92.0% Oryctolagus cuniculus (Rabbit) 91.0% Oryctolagus cuniculus (Rabbit) 91.0% Callithrix jacchus (White-tufted-ear marmoset) 91.0% Macropus giganteus (Eastern gray kangaroo) 90.0% 523 3.0×10-66 CYCS CYC Mus musculus (Mouse) 91.0% Otolemur garnettii (Small-eared galago) (Garnett's greater bushbaby) 91.0% Mirza coquereli (Coquerel's mouse lemur) (Microcebus coquereli) 91.0% Propithecus verreauxi (White sifaka) (Verreaux's sifaka) 91.0% Hapalemur griseus (Gray gentle lemur) (Eastern lesser bamboo lemur) 91.0% Rattus norvegicus (Rat) 91.0% Mus musculus (Mouse) 91.0% Perodicticus potto (potto) 90.0% Daubentonia madagascariensis (Aye-aye) (Sciurus madagascariensis) 91.0% Lagothrix lagotricha (Brown woolly monkey) (Humboldt's woolly monkey) 92.0% Ovis aries (Sheep) 90.0% Sus scrofa (Pig) 90.0% Bos taurus (Bovine) 90.0%scordova
May 31, 2013
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@tjguy Thompkins sure has a talent for spinning any discovery to somehow support YEC. First, molecular clocks put that new divergent Y chromosme at about 330k years ago, and second I don't think anybody has compared it with neanderthals or denisovans yet. The neanderthal Y data just appeared about a month ago and I don't think anyone has published a study on it yet. However he's right about the lack of similarity between human and chimp Y's. So if you base the mutation rate on phylogeny (assuming common descent is true), then that would put Y Adam at only thousands of years ago. The problem is the observed mutation rate puts him at 150-330k. @JLAfan2001 Here is the mouse genome paper published in 2002. According to there:
The mouse genome is about 14% smaller than the human genome (2.5 Gb compared with 2.9 Gb).
So I don't think it would be possible to have 97% similarity. Also:
At the nucleotide level, approximately 40% of the human genome can be aligned to the mouse genome.
Do you have a link to the new scientist article?JoeCoder
May 31, 2013
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I just read in a 2002 article of new scientist that we share 97% DNA with mice. Is that right or am I misunderstanding? I thought I heard Dawkins in a debate with a Rabbi saying something along the lines how this discovery is humbling to humans so I decided to look into it. Has this been overturned or is it a comparison in the same way as the chimp?JLAfan2001
May 31, 2013
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JoeCoder, you brought up the human Y-Chromosome problem that says males are up to 300,000 years old. This article doesn't deal with that aspect of it specifically, but the article you referred to is quoted in this article I found on the ICR website: http://www.icr.org/article/7413/ Any thoughts?
The human Y-chromosome has been a sore point among secular scientists in recent years because of its many anti-evolutionary surprises. Adding to the Darwinian grief, is yet one more shocking Y-chromosome study that more clearly illustrates the boundaries of human genetic diversity. Much controversy has brewed during the past few years over the genomic sequences of what have been termed "archaic" humans. This so-called "ancient DNA" was extracted from bone fragments of "Neandertal" and "Denisovan" specimens and then sequenced, providing draft blue prints of these respective genomes.1, 2 While much hypothetical speculation has raged over how much interbreeding went on between modern humans and archaic humans, the fact remains that both types were shown to be fully human. Now, a modern living human has been discovered who has Y-chromosome variation that increases the range of human DNA diversity beyond that of so-called archaic humans.3 This new data unequivocally proves that Neandertals and Denisovans were well within the DNA variability range of modern humans—not extinct primitive evolutionary offshoots of the human lineage. Earlier DNA studies attempted to prove that archaic humans were different than modern humans, based on slight variations in their mitochondrial DNA—a small circular piece of DNA outside the nucleus in the cell’s mitochondria that is inherited maternally. In fact, because the Y-chromosome undergoes very little DNA change, and is considerably larger in size than the mitochondrial genome, it is a much more reliable measure of human DNA diversity. Not surprisingly, this new discovery confirms the conclusions and predictions first proposed by researchers when the entire Neandertal genome draft sequence was published in 2010.1 In this report, the authors state, "Neandertals are expected to be more closely related to some present-day humans than they are to each other." The new Y-chromosome study now fully confirms this hypothesis made by evolutionists themselves. Another Y-chromosome study of great importance in the human-origins debate is the recent report of extreme differences between the human and chimpanzee MSY (male determining) regions. The MSY region contains most of the genes in the Y-chromosome. In this report, approximately 50% of the DNA sequence did not even match between chimps and humans. Humans also had twice as many genes as chimps in the MSY region. In fact, the evolutionary authors of the study shockingly note that given "6 million years of separation, the difference in MSY gene content in chimpanzee and human is more comparable to the difference in autosomal gene content in chicken and human, at 310 million years of separation."4 Confirming this stunning human-chimp Y-chromosome data is another recent research report in which the analysis of all chimpanzee chromosomes showed only a 70% DNA similarity on average to human.5 These scientific discoveries related to human origins, as revealed by modern DNA sequencing technologies, can be summarized by the following key points. Modern humans, Neandertals, and Denisovans are all part of the same human "created kind." Chimpanzees are simply a type of ape, created distinctly and uniquely as their own "kind." These findings fully confirm the Bible which states in the book of Genesis that all living things were created with distinct genetic boundaries "after their kind." The Bible also clearly tells us that, concerning mankind’s genetics, God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth" (Acts 17:26).
So his claim or take home from that article is that "this new data unequivocally proves that Neandertals and Denisovans were well within the DNA variability range of modern humans—not extinct primitive evolutionary offshoots of the human lineage." Probably you would agree with that as well. He doesn't address the age part of it. I would be interested in hearing how they handle that part of it.tjguy
May 31, 2013
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JGuy, THANKS for that article! Man I am out of the loop. I stopped reading UD for about several months before returning. Unfortunately, I could start getting real busy soon, so it's been nice hanging out this past month. Btw, thanks for your friendship and support all these years from days at ARN to today. If you decide to go to the ICC: http://creationicc.org/ feel free to look me up. I'm one of the few non-white guys there, and you have my photo here: https://uncommondescent.com/education/reflections-from-whiting-school-class-of-2013/ I should be easy to find. God bless you, Salscordova
May 31, 2013
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Sal, Another relevant goodie that you might have missed - even though the topic was posted on UD. In fact, it may have flew under a many YEC radars. The peak of intellect, 'conveniently' friendly with YEC [bold emphasis mine]:
Taken together,the large number of genes required for intellectual and emotional function, and the unique susceptibility of these genes to loss of heterozygosity, lead me to conclude that we, as a species, are surprisingly intellectually fragileandperhaps reached a peak 2000–6000 years ago. But if we are losing our intellectual abilities, how did we acquire them in the ?rst place? This will be the topic of the next section [15].
Source: http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/334/4/c/for_stardusk_by_the_wandering_kid-d5mlyaq.pdf UD thread: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/is-human-intellect-degenerating/JGuy
May 30, 2013
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JoeCoder, quantum entanglement, regardless of distance between molecules, is reliant upon a beyond space and time cause to explain its effect. ,,, As to the separate question of "is there evidence of design/functional information being carried there?" Yes, there is evidence. as to "is it of a nature more difficult than any other tasks attributed to Darwinian evolution?" Now Now JoeCoder, you no that no task is too difficult for Darwinian evolution! :) But seriously, when you get into the details of what is going on, it is at least several orders of magnitude more complex than what we normally toy around on UD with, trying to get Darwinists to explain the origin of,, i.e. proteins and molecular machines.bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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In DNA is entanglement merely a consequence of having the molecules close to each other, or is there evidence of design/functional information being carried there and is it of a nature more difficult than any other tasks attributed to Darwinian evolution?JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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