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Cocktails! falsifying Darwinism via falsifying the geological “column”

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There is the forgotten book Shattering the Myths of Darwinism written by a non-creationist agnostic Richard Milton. Milton expressed his skepticism of mainstream claims of the old-age of the fossil record. His work further motivated me toward the idea that there could an empirically driven critique of the accepted ages of the fossils.

This is a short bio of Milton:

Richard Milton is a science journalist and design engineer based in London. He is a member of Mensa, the international high-IQ society, and writes a column for Mensa Magazine. He has been a member of the Geologists’ Association for twenty years, and did extensive geological research for this book. He has been featured on the BBC, NBC, and other television networks.

Like the agnostic Denton, Milton seems to draw much admiration from creationists.

The fact Milton was an agnostic suggested to me that considerations of facts and following the evidence wherever it leads might lead one to a different conclusion than the accepted mainstream view of fossil ages. One does not have to begin with the premise of YEC to conclude that the claims of the old ages of fossils have serious empirical difficulties.

But what about radiometric dating? That serious issue will be covered in another post, but suffice to say, on evidential grounds alone, it seems there are serious unresolved conflicts. If physics and chemistry are invoked to defend the old ages of fossils, physics and chemistry can also be invoked to falsify it. Neither side, creationist or evolutionist, has a conflict-free model of history. But that is not to say that one side might not prevail on empirical grounds eventually in the light of future scientific discoveries.

My aim then is not to argue that the accepted mainstream model of the history of life is definitely wrong, but rather it can’t be definitely right given what we already know. Skepticism is in order, and thankfully it doesn’t stop there, skepticism might lead to novel, innovative research to settle the conflicts.

We have the conceptual notion of a geological “column”. The idea is that if you dig a hole, you are essentially traversing down a conceptual column that provides a recorded history of life. Conceptually this is depicted in the following image:

geological column

In such a column, older fossils are buried beneath younger fossils. Even supposing this is a reasonable interpretation, it does not immediately affix the ages of the fossils. One fossil may be older than another, but it doesn’t immediately tell us that the oldest fossils are 500 million years old! So for the sake of argument, let us assume that on average deeper means older, what can we say about the oldest layer based on empirical considerations?

When I asked a geologist common sense questions about the process of fossilization, he threw a fit. I asked “how are fossils fossilized?” I pointed out if you leave a dead organism out in the open it decomposes or is eaten by scavengers. So really good fossilization can’t happen by ordinary processes but rather by catastrophic process such as rapid burial, and often a burial that involves water. He threw a fit at the suggestion but reluctantly conceded that to get really good fossils, one needs water and rapid burial. He didn’t like where the discussion seemed to be headed. 🙂

Here are the boring considerations. Suppose we have intact geological column which can be found in one location such that you get to dig and find fossils in the order prescribed by the diagram above (and there are some who argue there is no such place on Earth, only in the conceptual imaginations of paleontologists). Suppose we give a generous height to this column of 200 miles spanning a history of 500 million years, what would be the average rate of deposition (accumulation of sediments on top of each other). I calculated that it would be .667 millimeters a year.

The geologist then fumed at my figure of a 200-mile deep geological column and argued it could be less than that. Of course, he didn’t realize he actually strengthened my argument. So I said, “fine, 14 miles, since that’s the farthest man has ever drilled into the Earth, that yields a deposition rate of .046 millimeters a year,” which is about half the thickness of a sheet of paper. That would mean a dinosaur that is lying 5 meters high will take about 100,000 years to bury, and thus it becomes very doubtful that it will fossilize because it is exposed to scavengers and decomposition and other environmental effects.

From Darwin-loving pages of Wiki we read:

Fossilization processes proceed differently according to tissue type and external conditions.

Permineralization is a process of fossilization that occurs when an organism is buried. The empty spaces within an organism (spaces filled with liquid or gas during life) become filled with mineral-rich groundwater. Minerals precipitate from the groundwater, occupying the empty spaces. This process can occur in very small spaces, such as within the cell wall of a plant cell. Small scale permineralization can produce very detailed fossils. For permineralization to occur, the organism must become covered by sediment soon after death or soon after the initial decay process. The degree to which the remains are decayed when covered determines the later details of the fossil. Some fossils consist only of skeletal remains or teeth; other fossils contain traces of skin, feathers or even soft tissues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fossil

What? The organism needs to buried with sediments and water quickly. Of note, many layers of the geological “column” indicated mass extinction events, such that it could also be interpreted to be rapid simultaneous burial over large geographical regions by water and sediments, if not rapid simultaneous burial over the entire globe! But whatever the details, the fact remains that large sections of the geological column that contain fossils, could not, even in principle be assembled over millions of years. At best we have one catastrophe that creates a bed of fossils followed by a long era of stasis (no activity) and then followed another catastrophe, etc.

The geologist fumed, and said something to the effect, “You’re analysis is silly. Deposition doesn’t happen at steady rates like you imply.” Of course he was fuming so badly, he didn’t realize he was making my point, namely most of the fossil rich geological column didn’t take hundreds of millions of years to form. 🙂 Steady deposition could not have created the fossil record even in principle and even as Darwin and Lyell supposed. At best we have layers created by catastrophes, and then long periods of stasis in between. The bottom line is, the formation of most of the fossil layers of “column” could not have taken place over millions of years even in principle. We have to imagine the long periods of stasis are actually represented, because the fossil layers themselves must have formed in a few years if not a few minutes!

For the Darwinian story to hold, one has to fortuitously interleave highly fotuitous catastrophes followed by long eras of stasis and do this for each of the layers.

Recording of geological history via a process of slow, steady change is represented by a school of thought known as uniformitarianism (founded by Lyell). In contrast, recording of geological history by a process of catastrophes is known as catastrophism. The recording process for the fossil layers based on the considerations above, is then mostly the product of catastrophes. This catastrophist school of thought was highly anti-Darwinian:

Lyell encapsulated his philosophy in a doctrine later called “uniformitarianism”—a complex set of beliefs centered on the catechism that “the present is the key to the past.”….Lyell viewed this principle as a methodological reform to eliminate fanciful (and quasi-theological) “catastrophic” causes and to render the full magnitude of past change by the slow and steady accumulation of ordinary small changes (deposition and erosion grain by grain) extended over vast times.

And yet, from two different standpoints (theoretical and empirical), Lyell’s credo makes little sense, and its status as dogma can only reflect our social and psychological preferences. First, what is the probability that our tiny slice of observable time should include the full range of potential processes that might alter the earth? What about big, but perfectly natural, events that occur so infrequently that we have only a remote chance of observing even one occurrence in historical time? Second, how can Lyellian gradualism account for the fundamental fact of paleontology–extensive, and appparently rapid, faunal turnovers (“mass extinctions”) occurring several times in the history of life? (Traditional explanations over at least a few million years and attributing them to over intensification of ordinary causes–changes in temperature and sea level, for example–but the arguments have always seemed forced.)

Yet, until recently, extinction received much less attention than its obvious prominence warranted. In an overly Darwinian world of adaptation, gradual change, and improvement, extinction seemed, well, so negative–the ultimate failure, the flip side of evolution’s “real” work, something to be acknowledge but not intensely discussed in polite company.

This odd neglect has been reversed in the last decade…the primary architect of this shift is my brilliant colleague David M. Raup….Dave Raup is the best of the best.

Stephen J. Gould
Bad Genes or Bad Luck by David Raup

Amen brother Gould!

But that is not the end of problems, only the beginning. We have the paradoxical situation where the fossil record accumulates, but then this must happen against the contrary forces of erosion. Thus, the fossil record must:
1. fortuitously form one fossil layer via a fortuitous catastrophe
2. have that layer separated from the layer above it by a long era of stasis (no activity)
3. then another fortuitous catastrophe creates the next layer
4. etc.

All this must happen while miraculously avoiding the problem of erosion. This leads to a mechanical contradiction. Is this contradiction resolved? No, just obfuscated away and swept under the rug and defended by ridicule of those who would dare to ask common sense questions.

Ariel Roth of Geoscience Research points out that reasonable estimates of erosion rates of 6 centimeters/1000 year would wipe out not only the geological “column” but even the continents above sea level in short order.

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma [million years]
….
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
….
There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

On top of that, why aren’t the oceans saturated solutions of salt and minerals? If rain has been pouring on land and pumping salt and other minerals into the oceans, why aren’t they saturated? That complication may be resolvable, but one does not get the feeling the questions are even welcome, much less attempts at resolution.

When I’ve asked geologists, PandasThumbsters about these difficulties, I get just get rude rebuffs. I think to myself, “if not for my sake, won’t they want to answer these questions for the sake of curious aspiring Darwinists?”. Maybe they won’t answer these questions because they have none.

NOTES:
1. The title contains the word: “Cocktail” to emphasize the speculative, informal nature of this essay. I elaborate more about the relevance of such topics to ID in The relevance of YEC to ID

2. here is the link to Ariel Roth’s paper:
http://www.grisda.org/origins/13064.htm

and a long excerpt

By noting the rates at which the surfaces of the continents are eroded and carried away by rivers to the oceans (see section 2 for specific values), one can calculate the length of time required to remove a given thickness of the continents. Judson and Ritter (1964) have estimated that for the United States the rate of erosion averages 6.1 cm/1000 years. At this rate of denudation the continents, which average 623 m above sea level, would be eroded to sea level in a mere 10.2 Ma. In other words, at this rate the present continents would be eroded over 340 times in the 3500 Ma assumed for the age of the continents. The observation by the famous geologist Powell that “mountains cannot long remain mountains” certainly seems appropriate. The estimate of 10 Ma given above has been a well-accepted figure (Schumm 1963) and has subsequently been referred to in a number of publications including Dott and Batten (1971, p. 136) and Garrels and Mackenzie (1971, pp. 114-115). Earlier, Dole and Stabler (1909) gave figures indicating that it would take about twice as long. Judson (1968), while correcting for human activity, suggests 34 Ma for complete erosion of the continents. None of these figures does much to alleviate the discrepancy which is especially significant when one considers mountain ranges such as the Caledonides of western Europe and the Appalachians of North America which are assumed to be several hundred Ma old. Why are these ranges here today if they are so old?
Rates of erosion are greater in high mountains and lower in regions of less relief (Ahnert 1970, Bloom 1971, Ruxton and McDougall 1967, and Schumm 1963). Ruxton and McDougall (1967) report erosion rates of 8 cm/1000 years near sea level and 52 cm/1000 years at an altitude of 975 m in the Hydrographers Range in Papua. Rates of 92 cm/1000 years are reported for the Guatemala-Mexico Border Mountains (Corbel 1959), 100 cm/1000 years for the Himalayas (Menard 1961), and in the Mt. Rainier region of Washington Mills (1976) documents erosion rates of up to 800 cm/1000 years. Probably the highest recorded regional rate is 1900 cm/1000 years from a volcano in New Guinea (Ollier and Brown 1971).
It has been suggested that mountains still exist because they are constantly being renewed by uplift from below. However, this process of uplift could not go through even one complete cycle of erosion and uplift without eradicating the layers of the geologic column found in them. Present erosion rates would tend to rapidly eradicate evidence of older sediments; yet these sediments are still very well-represented, both in mountains and elsewhere.
Other attempts to reconcile average present erosion rates to geologic time include suggestions that man’s activities, especially agricultural practices, have increased the rate of erosion, making present rates uncharacteristically rapid. Such an explanation seems inadequate to account for a several hundred-fold discrepancy. Gilluly et al. (1968, p. 79) propose that farming may have increased average erosion rates by a factor of less than 2, while Judson (1968) suggests about 2½ times. Others have suggested that the climate of the past may have been more dry or the relief flatter, resulting in slower erosion rates. We now have some interior basins such as central Australia where there is no drainage and no removal of sediment, but these are exceptions. The lush vegetation evident in significant sections of the fossil record suggests at least some wetter conditions in the past. Characteristically, current erosion rates in hot, dry lowlands with gradients 0.001 or less, are not sufficiently slower. Corbel (1959) indicates rates of 1.2 cm/1000 years for the hot dry plains of the Mediterranean region and New Mexico. The lowest rates found in a study of 20 river basins (Ahnert 1970) was 1.6 cm/1000 years for basins in Texas and England. These slower rates do not solve a discrepancy of several hundred-fold, and one would have to postulate different past conditions for a major area of the earth during a significant proportion of earth history to provide a resolution to the problem.
A different context can serve to emphasize the question of rates of erosion. If it is assumed that 2.5 km of continents have been eroded in the past (our present continents average about one fourth that thickness above sea level) and if it is assumed that erosion proceeds at the rate of 3 cm/1000 years (half of the presently observed rate to correct for the effects of modern agricultural pursuits), then it would take about 83 Ma to erode a 2.5 km thickness of continental crust. In other words, at present rates of erosion, continents 2.5 km thick could have been eroded 42 times during the assumed 3500 Ma age for the continents, or continents 106 km thick would have been eroded once. There is little question that there is some difficulty in reconciling present erosion rates with standard geochronology.

Comments
If I were to pick either side there would be lines of evidence I couldn’t explain. I used to be exclusively old-earth.
I'm in the same boat. I have my sympathies, but on evidential and theoretical grounds, for me it looks like a tough stalemate. Thanks for responding.scordova
May 30, 2013
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There are some possible explanations to the Y chromosome Adam problem: 1. Suppose every now and then humans mutate errors in DNA repair--they persist for several generations but then are selected away. But they would still accumulate more mutations in the Y chromosomes, which do not recombine. 2. Humans living in areas of high radiation mutate faster. 3. Perhaps not all Y chromosomes share a common ancestor. Gen 6:2, "the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose." The Nephilim are mentioned before and after the flood. But unfortunately none of these are the most direct interpretation of the evidence, so I'm hesitant to invoke them.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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"The list that you provided,, is why I’m not a full blown atheist." Well, that list (evidence) ought to make you lean heavily towards Theism no matter how you view Genesis. I simply find atheistic materialism to be completely incoherent as to rationally explaining the evidence we now have in hand. Their worldview is not only wrong but preposterous, laughable, even insane.,,, If you want to learn more about Ross's views I suggest his books 'Why The Universe Is The Way It Is', 'A Matter Of Days' and 'Creation As Science - A Testable Approach to End The Creation-Evolution Wars',,bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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@scordova, 93 I'm agnostic on the age of the earth. If I were to pick either side there would be lines of evidence I couldn't explain. I used to be exclusively old-earth. It's funny. I find the reddit comment format much easier to follow than @ UD. I often think we should get our own subreddit there, which would also allow anyone to create a new top-level post.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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Here's another article from a news site about the oldest ancestor to the bird. Or is it? http://www.newser.com/story/168722/heres-the-oldest-bird-ever-found-maybe.htmlPeterJ
May 30, 2013
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@JLAfan2001 I don't believe in common descent. I believe shared disabling mutations in pseudogenes can be explained by mutational hotspots, and that rapidly mutating retroviruses that have high sequence identity to ERV's from tens of millions of years ago can only be explained if ERV's offer a selectable benefit to their host--otherwise the sequence couldn't be maintained that long. Some unmodified retroviruses have been shown to specifically target and destroy cancer cells. Based on this I think that ERV's are designed, retroviruses have their origin from them and not the other way around, and pathogenic RNA viruses evolved have evolved from simbiotic ones to have more selfish roles.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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JoeCoder, Apologies for glossing over your reddit thread. Part of the problem is the format of the discussion is hard to read and I got confused. You raise some points that I can't contest and are problematic for the YEC model. For myself, for what it's worth, YEC would be nice, but even a partial break in the chronology, as attempted in this discussion, though not proving YEC, would be substantive at casting even more doubt on evolution. If you feel comfortable talking about it, where do you stand on the issues? I hope its moderately clear where I stand, I'm YEC-sympathetic, but I don't think the case is very defensible at this time compared to the ID case. Thanks.scordova
May 30, 2013
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My own rejection of naturalistic evolution isn't based on the number of differences between humans and chimps, but rather what those differences entail. Consider observed evolution among the microbes. HIV (radically different from cellular life, but the best evolver I know of) took a population of 10^20 all mutating random combinations to evolve a few new binding cites, malaria (p falciparum) 10^20 before finding the right two nucleotides to flip to gain chloroquine resistance under strong selective pressure, and all other examples among hundreds of well-studied microbial species are as slow or slower. Yet among about 10^12 ancestors since a chimp divergence, millions of times fewer mutations and selections than the microbes, we would've had to evolve something like 280-1400 new genes/proteins through duplications, fusions, de novo from non coding DNA, and some without homologs at all. These are members of over 20 new gene families and are found active in our neocortal development among other areas, and have little homology to existing genes. Attempting a crude quantification, that gives homo a million times less mutational search but a thousand times the result--meaning we would have had to evolve a billion times faster than any observed rate. Observation tells us functional variants are too rare and it requires vast mutational search to find even very small gains. This is on top of the problem that large genome animals with low reproductive rates should not be able to undergo long-term adaptive evolution at all, since our high mutation rate causes deleterious mutations to arrive much faster than even artificial selection can remove them.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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JoeCoder Do you believe in common descent? Just curious Sal Unlike a lot of people who post here, I will admit that I have no training in biology. I have believed the evidence based on some things that I have read and observed on the internet.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD "Sorry ladies, I didnt mean to rock the boat too much," Your not rocking the boat Carlie, your just not contributing anything worthwhile to the discussion.PeterJ
May 30, 2013
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I wish there was a way to edit posts. My 3 results above should be double what they are, since I forgot to multiply by 2.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD FUCK OFF!!!! I know that this is unwelcome on this site and I do accept evolution but I haven't read one scientific argument from you yet. You claim that you are smart but only an idiot would contradict himself and not realize it. You claimed you were an expert in biology and then said that you have little knowledge of it but you came here to refute people who have PHDs in their field. What do you have? You are one of those people that a chimp can clearly outsmart. You claim to have a high GPA but I haven't read anything scientifically credible from you. We all know that you just came here to stir up trouble rather than talk intelligently.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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@JLAfan2001, 83, on human/chimp similarity You can calculate how much difference there should be. Per Larry Moran's excellent overview, humans have 112-160mutations per generation based on phylogeny, or 56-103 based on direct measurements of the mutation rate. Assume an average generation time of 25 years, and 6m years divergence time. Them multiply by 2 to get 12 million since both chimps and humans would have been evolving for 6m each.
6,000,000 years / 25 years / generation * 56 mutations / generation = 13.4 million mutations. 6,000,000 years / 25 years / generation * 160 mutations / generation = 38.4 million mutations. 10,000,000 years / 25 years / generation * 100 mutations / generation = 40 million mutations.
So you can see how you can play with the numbers to get different amounts. Traditionally I believe it's assumed there have been 35 million substitutions + 5 million insertions and deletions that separate us from chimps. 3 billion base pairs * 1.23% (traditionally cited difference) is 36.9 million differences. So that is how the classic numbers are achieved. However, "It is now clear that the genetic differences between humans and chimpanzees are far more extensive than previously thought; their genomes are not 98% or 99% identical", per a paper published in PNAS, 2012. With the estimates now being placed all over the map from 70% to 96%, I'm not sure who is correct.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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Can creationits and IDist do the same?
Some can. I've stopped being a Darwinist, so does that count as admitting a mistake? If you feel comfortable answer the following question, it would help me understand where you are coming from. "What amount of formal science education have you had?" If you feel uncomfortable answering I respect that. The reason I ask is that even though you've expressed your belief in evolution, even though we've had technical discussions at UD, you've never volunteered contrary technical points that would overturn some of the assertions at UD, particularly on discussions I've been hosting. Felsenstein's thread is an excellent example to contrast your beliefs with the technical claims of the ID community. You may rely on peer-reviewed literature, or you may rely on your own knowledge base and critical thinking skills. I'm not saying you should accept ID. I respect it if you don't, but it would be nice to hear you offer more technical and specific criticisms than generalities. For example, in this thread I've laid out a lot of technical issues regarding the geological column. None of those points have gone challenged. Are you just trusting the mainstream because they are mainstream? Thank you for your comments.scordova
May 30, 2013
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I thought this might be of some interest. It's not realkly the kind of thing you would expect to find in a creature supposedly dead for so long. Or is it? http://www.newser.com/story/168730/frozen-mammoth-yields-astounding-find.htmlPeterJ
May 30, 2013
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Huge difference between us and chimps? Get your head out of your ass. Ive met plenty of people I think a chimp could outsmart, some are running this site actually!CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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Barb Thanks for the email and for the trust in providing it. I look forward to our exchanges soon. Jguy Although I'm not convinced, you do bring up an interesting point. If the DNA is so similar, why is there a huge difference between us and the chimps? Would 6 million years be enough time for the differences to occur and why only 1% in that time? But if the DNA falls to 70%, wouldn't it be feasible that we are related to them now because the lower percentage would explain the difference? The problem now arises that either way relations can't be proven which seems to create a paradox of sorts. BA77 Thanks for the Hugh Ross link. I have listened to it before but I don;t think he quite goes into detail what the 4 for 4 and the 10 for 10 is. I would be interested to know. The list that you provided for materialism and that Chance provided against naturalism is why I'm not a full blown atheist. It doesn't make sense to me either. Believe me, I'm not trying to be biased against theism as some are but I am biased against Genesis because it doesn't line up with science. That's why I want to know what Hugh Ross means. I find it interesting that Todd Wood seems to side with Denis Venema more so than Fuz Rana. I think that he sees the evidence for evolution but is afraid to embrace it because of his faith.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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Remember JLAfan2001, I'm NOT a YEC and find the position untenable both Biblically and empirically. But for the sake of argument, let's see how the alternative worldview, materialism, stacks up against the evidence for Theism: 1. Materialism predicted an eternal universe, Theism predicted a created universe. - Big Bang points to a creation event. - 2. Materialism predicted time had an infinite past, Theism predicted time had a creation. - Time was created in the Big Bang. - 3. Materialism predicted space has always existed, Theism predicted space had a creation (Psalm 89:12) - Space was created in the Big Bang. - 4. Materialism predicted that material has always existed, Theism predicted 'material' was created. - 'Material' was created in the Big Bang. 5. Materialism predicted that the basis of physical reality would be a solid indestructible material particle which rigidly obeyed the rules of time and space, Theism predicted the basis of this reality was created by a infinitely powerful and transcendent Being who is not limited by time and space - Quantum mechanics reveals a wave/particle duality for the basis of our reality which blatantly defies our concepts of time and space. - 6. Materialism predicted that consciousness is a 'emergent property' of material reality and thus has no particularly special position within material reality. Theism predicted consciousness preceded material reality and therefore consciousness should have a 'special' position within material reality. Quantum Mechanics reveals that consciousness has a special, even a central, position within material reality. - 7. Materialism predicted the rate at which time passed was constant everywhere in the universe, Theism predicted God is eternal and is outside of time - Special Relativity has shown that time, as we understand it, is relative and comes to a complete stop at the speed of light. (Psalm 90:4 - 2 Timothy 1:9) - 8. Materialism predicted the universe did not have life in mind and life was ultimately an accident of time and chance. Theism predicted this universe was purposely created by God with man in mind - Every transcendent universal constant scientists can measure is exquisitely fine-tuned for carbon-based life to exist in this universe. - 9. Materialism predicted complex life in this universe should be fairly common. Theism predicted the earth is extremely unique in this universe - Statistical analysis of the hundreds of required parameters which enable complex life to be possible on earth gives strong indication the earth is extremely unique in this universe. - 10. Materialism predicted much of the DNA code was junk. Theism predicted we are fearfully and wonderfully made - ENCODE research into the DNA has revealed a "biological jungle deeper, denser, and more difficult to penetrate than anyone imagined.". - 11. Materialism predicted a extremely beneficial and flexible mutation rate for DNA which was ultimately responsible for all the diversity and complexity of life we see on earth. Theism predicted only God created life on earth - The mutation rate to DNA is overwhelmingly detrimental. Detrimental to such a point that it is seriously questioned whether there are any truly beneficial mutations whatsoever. (M. Behe; JC Sanford) - 12. Materialism predicted a very simple first life form which accidentally came from "a warm little pond". Theism predicted God created life - The simplest life ever found on Earth is far more complex than any machine man has made through concerted effort. (Michael Denton PhD) - 13. Materialism predicted it took a very long time for life to develop on earth. Theism predicted life to appear abruptly on earth after water appeared on earth (Genesis 1:10-11) - We find evidence for complex photo-synthetic life in the oldest sedimentary rocks ever found on earth - 14. Materialism predicted the gradual unfolding of life to be self-evident in the fossil record. Theism predicted complex and diverse life to appear abruptly in the seas in God's fifth day of creation. - The Cambrian Explosion shows a sudden appearance of many different and completely unique fossils within a very short "geologic resolution time" in the Cambrian seas. - 15. Materialism predicted there should be numerous transitional fossils found in the fossil record, Theism predicted sudden appearance and rapid diversity within different kinds found in the fossil record - Fossils are consistently characterized by sudden appearance of a group/kind in the fossil record, then rapid diversity within the group/kind, and then long term stability and even deterioration of variety within the overall group/kind, and within the specific species of the kind, over long periods of time. Of the few dozen or so fossils claimed as transitional, not one is uncontested as a true example of transition between major animal forms out of millions of collected fossils. - 16. Materialism predicted animal speciation should happen on a somewhat constant basis on earth. Theism predicted man was the last species created on earth - Man himself is the last generally accepted major fossil form to have suddenly appeared in the fossil record. -bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001 states: "Fossils, genetics, geology and cosmology all prove Genesis false." yet these guys certainly found correlation in cosmology: The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE "Now we see how the astronomical evidence supports the biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy." Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ ,,, 'And if you're curious about how Genesis 1, in particular, fairs. Hey, we look at the Days in Genesis as being long time periods, which is what they must be if you read the Bible consistently, and the Bible scores 4 for 4 in Initial Conditions and 10 for 10 on the Creation Events' Hugh Ross - Evidence For Intelligent Design Is Everywhere; video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4347236 "I now believe that the universe was brought into existence by an infinite intelligence. I believe that the universe's intricate laws manifest what scientists have called the Mind of God. I believe that life and reproduction originate in a divine Source. Why do I believe this, given that I expounded and defended atheism for more than a half century? The short answer is this: this is the world picture, as I see it, that has emerged from modern science." Anthony Flew - world's leading intellectual atheist for most of his adult life until a few years shortly before his death The Case for a Creator - Lee Strobel (Nov. 25, 2012) - video http://www.saddleback.com/mc/m/ee32d/ Methinks someone is being unfairly biased against Theism, Genesis in particular!bornagain77
May 30, 2013
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Sorry ladies, I didnt mean to rock the boat too much, sometimes I just need a good laugh. Your army of pseudoscience psycho-babblers usually provides me with plenty.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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JLAfan2001: You can send me an email here: bl3206@gmail.com And CharlieD continues to prove that he is little more than a troll. Back under your bridge!Barb
May 30, 2013
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CharlieD, regardless of whether you find it silly or not, there were and are certain theistic presuppositions that were and are necessary for the founding and practice of modern science to be successful. For instance, the presupposition that you have a transcendent 'mind' that can reason independently of the material events of the universe or your brain: “One absolutely central inconsistency ruins [the popular scientific philosophy]. The whole picture professes to depend on inferences from observed facts. Unless inference is valid, the whole picture disappears… unless Reason is an absolute, all is in ruins. Yet those who ask me to believe this world picture also ask me to believe that Reason is simply the unforeseen and unintended by-product of mindless matter at one stage of its endless and aimless becoming. Here is flat contradiction. They ask me at the same moment to accept a conclusion and to discredit the only testimony on which that conclusion can be based.” —C.S. Lewis, Is Theology Poetry (aka the Argument from Reason) Comprehensibility of the world - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: I have to deduce that Einstein hadn’t an understanding of traditional metaphysics. Otherwise he would neither have spoken about the comprehensibility of the universe as “the most incomprehensible thing” or a “miracle”, nor he would have been surprised that math is so “appropriate to the objects of reality”. In fact metaphysics postulates “universal intelligibility”,,, ,,,So, for materialism, the Einstein’s question remains unanswered. Logic and math (that is fully based on logic), to be so effective, must be universal truths. If they are only states of the brain of one or more individuals – as materialists maintain – they cannot be universal at all. Universal truths must be objective and absolute, not just subjective and relative. Only in this way can they be shared among all intelligent beings.,,, ,,,Bottom line: without an absolute Truth, (there would be) no logic, no mathematics, no beings, no knowledge by beings, no science, no comprehensibility of the world whatsoever. https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/comprehensibility-of-the-world/ “It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter”. J. B. S. Haldane ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209. “If you do not assume the law of non-contradiction, you have nothing to argue about. If you do not assume the principles of sound reason, you have nothing to argue with. If you do not assume libertarian free will, you have no one to argue against. If you do not assume morality to be an objective commodity, you have no reason to argue in the first place.” - William J Murray https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-naturalists-conundrum/#comment-442117 further notes: In a recent debate in which Dr. Craig totally decimated the atheist Dr. Rosenberg, Dr Craig stated that Dr. Rosenberg blurs together: Epistemological Naturalism: which holds that science is the only source of knowledge and, Metaphysical Naturalism: which holds that only physical things exist As to, Epistemological Naturalism, which holds that science is the only source of knowledge, Dr. Craig states it is a false theory of knowledge since,,, a). it is overly restrictive and b) it is self refuting Moreover Dr Craig stated, epistemological naturalism does not imply metaphysical naturalism.,, In fact a Empistemological Naturalist can and should be a Theist, according to Dr. Craig, because Metaphysical Naturalism is reducto ad absurdum on (at least) these eight following points in this video: I strongly suggest watching Dr. Craig’s short presentation, that I have linked, to get a full feel for just how insane the metaphysical naturalist’s position actually is. Is Metaphysical Naturalism Viable? - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzS_CQnmoLQ ============ The Heretic - Who is Thomas Nagel and why are so many of his fellow academics condemning him? - March 25, 2013 Excerpt: Neo-Darwinism insists that every phenomenon, every species, every trait of every species, is the consequence of random chance, as natural selection requires. And yet, Nagel says, “certain things are so remarkable that they have to be explained as non-accidental if we are to pretend to a real understanding of the world.” Among these remarkable, nonaccidental things are many of the features of the manifest image. Consciousness itself, for example: You can’t explain consciousness in evolutionary terms, Nagel says, without undermining the explanation itself. Evolution easily accounts for rudimentary kinds of awareness. Hundreds of thousands of years ago on the African savannah, where the earliest humans evolved the unique characteristics of our species, the ability to sense danger or to read signals from a potential mate would clearly help an organism survive. So far, so good. But the human brain can do much more than this. It can perform calculus, hypothesize metaphysics, compose music—even develop a theory of evolution. None of these higher capacities has any evident survival value, certainly not hundreds of thousands of years ago when the chief aim of mental life was to avoid getting eaten. Could our brain have developed and sustained such nonadaptive abilities by the trial and error of natural selection, as neo-Darwinism insists? It’s possible, but the odds, Nagel says, are “vanishingly small.” If Nagel is right, the materialist is in a pickle. The conscious brain that is able to come up with neo-Darwinism as a universal explanation simultaneously makes neo-Darwinism, as a universal explanation, exceedingly unlikely.,,, ,,,Fortunately, materialism is never translated into life as it’s lived. As colleagues and friends, husbands and mothers, wives and fathers, sons and daughters, materialists never put their money where their mouth is. Nobody thinks his daughter is just molecules in motion and nothing but; nobody thinks the Holocaust was evil, but only in a relative, provisional sense. A materialist who lived his life according to his professed convictions—understanding himself to have no moral agency at all, seeing his friends and enemies and family as genetically determined robots—wouldn’t just be a materialist: He’d be a psychopath. http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/heretic_707692.html?page=3 The Great Debate: Does God Exist? - Justin Holcomb - audio of the 1985 debate available on the site Excerpt: The transcendental proof for God’s existence is that without Him it is impossible to prove anything. The atheist worldview is irrational and cannot consistently provide the preconditions of intelligible experience, science, logic, or morality. The atheist worldview cannot allow for laws of logic, the uniformity of nature, the ability for the mind to understand the world, and moral absolutes. In that sense the atheist worldview cannot account for our debate tonight.,,, http://theresurgence.com/2012/01/17/the-great-debate-does-god-exist Presuppositional Apologetics - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.phpbornagain77
May 30, 2013
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scordova @68 Are you talking about Human Y Chromosome Base-Substitution Mutation Rate Measured by Direct Sequencing in a Deep-Rooting Pedigree where “The Y chromosomes of two individuals separated by 13 generations were flow sorted and sequenced” ? The mutation rate given there and rates close to it are what are used to get a Y-chromosome Adam age of 100-300k years. I go into more detail in the reddit thread I linked.
Yes. Apologies.scordova
May 30, 2013
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scordova @68 Are you talking about Human Y Chromosome Base-Substitution Mutation Rate Measured by Direct Sequencing in a Deep-Rooting Pedigree where "The Y chromosomes of two individuals separated by 13 generations were flow sorted and sequenced" ? The mutation rate given there and rates close to it are what are used to get a Y-chromosome Adam age of 100-300k years. I go into more detail in the reddit thread I linked.JoeCoder
May 30, 2013
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I know very little about evolution. I took one class on it. Im still willing to bet I know more than any of you about it. You guys should stop getting your information on evolution from books written by Kent Hovind and his pals. Getting a C in your high school bio class is not a "decent science education." Sorry.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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Barb I would like to continue a conversation with you via email if you are willing. You seem well read and would like to ask you some questions away from the debates.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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This is how I see it. There is a lot of evidence to support evolution and an old earth. Those two theories refute the book of Genesis in a literal way. I am ope to the fact that it may have been written as a metaphor for the people of the time and should not be taken literally but where does one draw the line? Where does metaphor end and history start? Also, why would Jesus die for metaphor? It seems to me that the metaphor approach may be a last ditch effort to giving up one's faith. I said it before---no first couple, no fall or sin, no need for a saviour. Fossils, genetics, geology and cosmology all prove Genesis false.JLAfan2001
May 30, 2013
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If you read all these books on evolution supposedly, then you shouldnt have to ask me for testable hypotheses.
Why is that? I ask because those books don't have any testable hypotheses wrt unguided evolution. I have read many bald assertions that natural selection is the only process known to produce adaptations, and then they show you adaptations and see, see, natural selection! And yes, you do know very little- obvioulsy.Joe
May 30, 2013
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"And youd be completely wrong to say that number 2 and 3 describe me. You guys have no clue what you are talking about. You should look into getting a decent science education before you try to talk about it." You've said that repeatedly. Yet you've done nothing but call other people here names, which proves nothing. Most of us have a decent science eduction. It's easy to tell which ones because they aren't the ones going around using faulty logic to try and prove their points. "If you read all these books on evolution supposedly, then you shouldnt have to ask me for testable hypotheses. I know very little about evolution and yet I can already tell that you know nothing of what you speak of. Youre not fooling anybody except the scientifically illiterate. What you guys do here will continue so long as there are idiots to listen to you on this planet, and unfortunately there seem to be a lot." Excuse me? You set yourself up as an expert not too long ago, and now you claim that you know very little? Not surprising, but you should now that you've shredded what little credibility you had.Barb
May 30, 2013
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If you read all these books on evolution supposedly, then you shouldnt have to ask me for testable hypotheses. I know very little about evolution and yet I can already tell that you know nothing of what you speak of. Youre not fooling anybody except the scientifically illiterate. What you guys do here will continue so long as there are idiots to listen to you on this planet, and unfortunately there seem to be a lot.CharlieD
May 30, 2013
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