Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Darwinism and popular culture: Socrates, the employment line forms out back, eight blocks from here, in front of a boarded-up door …

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A philosopher recently wrote to some friends, including me, with the following problem: He was tired of the stupidity that passes for discussion over at certain Darwinist blogs that we will leave unnamed at present. He proposed to engage the bloggers and commenters in discussion.

Well, he certainly isn’t the only person who has proposed this idea to me recently, and I offer no advice, only an observation: Nearly eighty percent of evolutionary biologists are pure naturalists = no God and no free will. My valiant friend intended confronting the Internet entities that are attracted to these key Darwinists, who help them out by pouring abuse on anyone who disputes the Law given on Mount Improbable.

He tells me, “… this is the strategy of the skunks. We need to let them stink alone and turn our attention elsewhere.” Sensing I should say something in reply, I responded,

I hope you do not expect too much.

Science today is in a state of corruption, as Climategate shows.

The key problem is overreaching. Pretending to know things we don’t in a very complex world, and using our pretense as an opportunity to promote an agenda to society.

Physicist Larry Krauss who spoke at our national science writers’ meet in May, is an atheist who knows exactly how the universe will end, for sure, due to “science.”

Look, every apocalyptic nut in a “The End Is Near” sandwich board knows that too.

Similarly, the Climategate scientists, their spinoff industries, and their media enablers “know” that human-caused global warming is true – and they know it in an essentially occult way.

The reason they behave as they do around data is the same reason as Madam Rosa (a local supposed psychic) does. Once people have decided to jettison facts in favour of what they need to believe – or need others to believe – they must protect a large and growing deficit.

One way of protecting the deficit from an honest evaluation is to attempt to discredit those who know about it and speak out. This works better if a mystique surrounds them (= “we are science”) and if they are well thought of by elite social groups (= “we support science”).

Darwinism is no different. In the absence of a large body of clearly established facts, speculation reigns triumphant. As the press release on Kombuisia (an Antarctic fossil) shows, publicity is often pursued for undisguised political ends. We really do not know very much about this very long extinct animal at all. But it can be co-opted for the global warming uproar.

Hence the chorus of ridicule you will face from the Darwinists and their hangers-on. They need Darwinism to be true, both for philosophical and pragmatic reasons. They treat as enemies of the truth anyone who questions it – and, just imagine, on so poor a ground as lack of firm evidence! What is the world coming to?

If evidence cannot be found, it will be grandfathered, manipulated, or speculated into existence. Anyone who doubts this process is labelled an “enemy of science,” which saves a lot of bother with evidence.

Are people today truly afraid of science? Let’s think this one out. Assume I have cancer, and the prognosis is poor. However, cancer researchers come up with a treatment protocol that scores a high success rate (without obvious ethical failings). Would I refuse to taxi down to the clinic to get it pronto, because of some theory about science?

In my experience, very few people are anti-science when a science fact base is demonstrated. If most patients (including myself) in this hypothetical case go into long-term remission, the fact base is demonstrated.

It is the same with crop science. Few farmers in the Third World turned down the Green Revolution, which is why the UN is now obsessing about a worldwide obesity problem, instead of the formerly more common “walking skeletons” problem.

Note that, in neither case does anyone much care what naysayers think. So there is no need for “Climategate” tactics in these matters.

But today, too much of what is called “science” is protected from honest evaluation by obfuscation, appeals to authority, attempts to control science media, concealment, labelling those who cannot replicate the results as cranks, persecuting dissenters, and pretending that speculation is evidence, among other unconstructive responses.

Say what you want about that stuff, it is not a matrix for new discoveries.

I have every confidence that my friend will find a way to make the best use of his time.

Incidentally, skunks don’t stink alone. Why be a skunk, apart from the chance to stink in someone’s face? That’s the whole point.

Comments
From your own admission, such things as humans and animals provide a real world referent for the abstraction which you deny you made and the referent which you doubt even exists.
The abstraction was present, the referent was present. The denial that there was an abstraction and that it had a referent, when both the abstraction and the referent were pretty darned obvious, did not justify the charge of irrationality. I apologise.Mung
December 15, 2009
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The point that you appear to be missing is that we can recognize, measure, and quantify the effects of known types of intelligence because we have observed the features of those intelligences (humans and certain other animals) and the constraints under which they operate.
The point that you appear to be missing is that a type of intelligence is an abstraction. So when you denied that you had ever engaged in such an abstraction:
I said nothing about intelligence in the abstract (if that even has a real world referent). From your own admission, such things as humans and animals provide a real world referent for the abstraction which you deny you made and the referent which you doubt even exists.
Mung
December 15, 2009
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Mung at 18, "Let’s tone down the emotive language." Sorry, I don’t even know what emotive language is. I was referring to your use of the term "admitted", which has significantly different connotations than the more accurate "agreed" or "recognized". "I said nothing about intelligence in the abstract (if that even has a real world referent)." You can’t be serious. "I agreed with William J. Murray that the effects of known types of intelligence (human and animal) can be recognized, measured, and quantified." Let me know when you’re ready to rejoin the world of rational ideas and arguments and we can continue. The point that you appear to be missing is that we can recognize, measure, and quantify the effects of known types of intelligence because we have observed the features of those intelligences (humans and certain other animals) and the constraints under which they operate. Because we have no evidence of or experience with other types of intelligence, we have no scientific means of determining if any intelligent beings existed four billion years ago on Earth or if such beings interfered with the course of evolution. If, on the other hand, you are positing a particular type of intelligent being with particular attributes, you may be able to make a testable prediction and bring the tools of science to bear.Mustela Nivalis
December 14, 2009
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Let me know when you’re ready to rejoin the world of civility and we can continue.
I'm ready :) Thanks for at least letting me know where I crossed the line. I was wondering. Cheers.Mung
December 12, 2009
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Mung,
Let me know when you’re ready to rejoin the world of rational ideas and arguments and we can continue.
Let me know when you're ready to rejoin the world of civility and we can continue.Clive Hayden
December 12, 2009
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Nakashima,
Thank you, I will have to remember that for the next time someone trots out the Kalam Cosmological Argument.
I think you missed my whole point, which was that we may discover the connection between events, but this is not the same as understanding them as we do mental relations. Nevertheless, the connection is the basis for the KCA, so your comparison doesn't apply.Clive Hayden
December 12, 2009
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Mr Hayden, This has to be firmly grasped, so to avoid the comparison between these events in nature which are wholly inexplicable, and mental relations which are explicable. Thank you, I will have to remember that for the next time someone trots out the Kalam Cosmological Argument.Nakashima
December 11, 2009
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Let’s tone down the emotive language.
Sorry, I don't even know what emotive language is. I'm assuming it's natural, so I fail to understand your objection.
I said nothing about intelligence in the abstract (if that even has a real world referent).
You can't be serious.
I agreed with William J. Murray that the effects of known types of intelligence (human and animal) can be recognized, measured, and quantified.
Let me know when you're ready to rejoin the world of rational ideas and arguments and we can continue.Mung
December 11, 2009
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Mung at 16, You’ve admitted that the effects of intelligence can be recognized, measured, and quantified. Let's tone down the emotive language. I agreed with William J. Murray that the effects of known types of intelligence (human and animal) can be recognized, measured, and quantified. I said nothing about intelligence in the abstract (if that even has a real world referent). What is a "non-living brain" That would be a dead one. how are you observing the lack of consciousness? Usually at the wake. One less drunk Irishman than at a wedding. "I observe that blows to the head can interrupt consciousness." What on earth do you mean? I mean that I used to play rugby. Now, how about answering the meat of my post: If the hypothesis is "human consciousness does not require a physical body", what predictions could a scientist who does not subscribe to methodological naturalism make that would serve to falsify the hypothesis and how could those predictions be tested?Mustela Nivalis
December 11, 2009
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If there were objective, empirical evidence for the existence of another type of intelligence, it could certainly be posited and evaluated scientifically.
Exactly. You've admitted that the effects of intelligence can be recognized, measured, and quantified. So when we see the effects of intelligence, it's not too great a leap, or even a non-scientific conjecture, that behind those effects is an intelligence. So what's your problem?
These known types of intelligence are by no means unnatural.
What does "natural" or "unnatural" have to do with anything? Why not work from the assumption that the intelligence is "natural"?
What cannot be evaluated scientifically is a purported cause without constraints.
This is just nonsense. What does it mean to "evaluate a cause"? What is a "cause without a constraint"? It makes no sense.
I observe that non-living brains do not demonstrate consciousness.
What is a "non-living brain", and how are you observing the lack of consciousness?
I observe that blows to the head can interrupt consciousness.
What on earth do you mean? What is your hypothesis for determining whether an "interruption of consciousness" has taken place?Mung
December 11, 2009
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William J. Murray at 13, Thank you for your very lucid response. ID is promotes a broader range of scientific endeavor because, unlike materialists, IDists don’t dismiss a potential cause simply because it supposedly conflicts with materialism. For example, even though there is no scientific reason to deny that evolution might be largely guided by intelligence, mainstream science insists that intelligence cannot be offered as a suitable explanatory hypothesis or theory. Why? Do humans not have intelligence? Are we the only entities with intelligence? Is intelligence unnatural? Can it not be measured, quantified, recognized? Certainly the effects of human and animal intelligence can be recognized, measured, and quantified. These known types of intelligence are by no means unnatural. However, humans weren't around for the vast majority of time that life has existed on Earth. If there were objective, empirical evidence for the existence of another type of intelligence, it could certainly be posited and evaluated scientifically. What cannot be evaluated scientifically is a purported cause without constraints. There is no way to scientifically determine that a particular observation reflects the actions of a potentially omniscient, omnipotent, non-material being. Because such a being could explain literally anything, it generates no testable predictions and hence explains nothing scientifically. For another example, materialist scientists look for any explanation for NDE’s other than the obvious, that human consciousness doesn’t require a physical body. That's an excellent example, because the "obvious" conclusion I draw from personal experience is that human consciousness definitely requires a physical brain. I observe that non-living brains do not demonstrate consciousness. I observe that blows to the head can interrupt consciousness. I have read peer-reviewed papers documenting personality changes as the result of brain injuries. Given all that, this is a great example to demonstrate how scientists operating without the constraint of methodological naturalism could still apply the scientific method. If the hypothesis is "human consciousness does not require a physical body", what predictions could such a scientist make that would serve to falsify the hypothesis and how could those predictions be tested?Mustela Nivalis
December 11, 2009
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O'Leary, I just have to say that you are among my short list of blogger type heroes, who I look up to, so you clearly know your science and your writing style is inspirational, keep up the good work, for always. When I saw that scientists started blaming global warming (decades ago) for the Permian extinction I had to laugh too. The lengths they will go to is incredible.Fross
December 10, 2009
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Mustella, ID is promotes a broader range of scientific endeavor because, unlike materialists, IDists don't dismiss a potential cause simply because it supposedly conflicts with materialism. For example, even though there is no scientific reason to deny that evolution might be largely guided by intelligence, mainstream science insists that intelligence cannot be offered as a suitable explanatory hypothesis or theory. Why? Do humans not have intelligence? Are we the only entities with intelligence? Is intelligence unnatural? Can it not be measured, quantified, recognized? For another example, materialist scientists look for any explanation for NDE's other than the obvious, that human consciousness doesn't require a physical body. Now, there's nothing in science that prevents this; it's just a materialist prejudice that consciouness requires a physical body. That doesn't mean that a consciousness outside of a body cannot be measured, interacted with, tested, or observed. It doesn't mean such a consciousness is unnatural. It isn't that mainstream science are prohibited by "methodological naturalism" against pursuing certain investigations; they refuse to do so out of ideological prejudice and habit, because such things as non-localized intelligence or consciousness outside of a body have a history of being associated with the term "supernatural" and with spiritual or religious world-views. It is the prejudice of how certain concepts have been viewed historically that constrains the investigatory parameters of materialist scientists, limitations that IDists don't share. They don't consider something "outside of the realm of science" to investigate before they even try; you can either successfully investigate it or you cannot, but simply saying you cannot because of what a thing is said to be historically or by some doctrine doesn't make it so.William J. Murray
December 10, 2009
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Mustela Nivalis,
We can study material causes that way, using the scientific method, because we can use repeated observation, hypothesizing, predicting, and testing to arrive at ever more useful descriptions of the phenomena being investigated. We can actually arrive at an understanding of the cause.
You can arrive at an understanding of what the cause was, but you cannot understand the cause. Because you see two things always connected physically doesn't mean that you understand them philosophically. Because you see one incomprehensible thing always follow another incomprehensible thing doesn't mean that the two things together make up a comprehensible thing. Two black riddles don't make a white answer. If you cut the stalk and the apple falls, you have noticed two incomprehensible things, and the mere relation of them being together is not an understanding of why they are connected philosophically. You can understand real laws, like laws of reason and logic, you can understand the law of non-contradiction, but you have no equivalent insight into why an apple should fall by merely cutting the stalk other than the two events have always been seen together. But we do not understand natural events as we understand mental relations. We have no "premise=conclusion" inner synthesis to why the one event follows from the other in nature. All we can say is that they do follow one another, but this is not an "understanding" because we have no knowledge of its inner synthesis. We cannot, as it were, get behind these events in nature and see their "reasonableness", in the respect that we can see the reasonableness behind laws of logic. This has to be firmly grasped, so to avoid the comparison between these events in nature which are wholly inexplicable, and mental relations which are explicable. The mere fact of seeing natural things together is not an "explanation" on the level of why we understand with our reason and can therefore explain the law of non-contradiction. Clive Hayden
December 10, 2009
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Mung at 9, We can study causes scientifically by their effects. We can study material causes that way, using the scientific method, because we can use repeated observation, hypothesizing, predicting, and testing to arrive at ever more useful descriptions of the phenomena being investigated. We can actually arrive at an understanding of the cause. What kind of predictions can be made about non-material causes and how can those be tested? Do you have an example of a hypothesis that is not allowed by methodological naturalism but that makes testable predictions that could, in principle, falsify the hypothesis? If so, how would those predictions be tested? How can we learn about the cause?Mustela Nivalis
December 10, 2009
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Just curious, what’s the ID matrix for new discoveries?
http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/bookUri.html http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/Papers/Biological%20Networks-%20The%20Tinkerer%20as%20an%20Engineer.pdf See the section on design principles at: http://www.weizmann.ac.il/mcb/UriAlon/groupPapers.htmlMung
December 10, 2009
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I presume you are referring to the constraint of methodological naturalism, correct?
YEs, a straightjacket can be considered a constraint, but most people woulkd think restraint.
I must confess, I don’t see how non-material causes can be tested scientifically. That’s not to say that such causes don’t (or do) exist, only that they are not amenable to scientific study.
Why not? I don't see how, therefore... We can study causes scientifically by their effects. Do know of some other way to study causes?Mung
December 10, 2009
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I understand. The trash, i.e. science as we know it has to be disposed of, only then will we see ID scientists going to work.
Haha. How ironic. How utterly Lockean. If we could just clear away the rubbish of the past, science would be free to proceed on a better foundation.Mung
December 10, 2009
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jerry at 4, ID is an expansion of the current domain of science. All is up for exploration with an ID scientist, not so for an anti ID scientist. This is an interesting comment. I presume you are referring to the constraint of methodological naturalism, correct? Given the scientific method of observe, hypothesize, predict, test, and repeat, how would an ID scientist's work be materially different from a scientist who accepts methodological naturalism? In particular, what different predictions might the ID scientist make and, most importantly, how might those predictions be tested? I must confess, I don't see how non-material causes can be tested scientifically. That's not to say that such causes don't (or do) exist, only that they are not amenable to scientific study.Mustela Nivalis
December 10, 2009
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"I understand. The trash, i.e. science as we know it has to be disposed of, only then will we see ID scientists going to work." A pathetic comment. ID is not trashing current scientific methodology, only expanding the conclusions that one makes from the findings. That is a big distinction and one you should keep in mind as you go on your endless criticism of something you do not understand.jerry
December 10, 2009
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O'Leary:
By analogy: I wouldn’t try renovating an old building before takin’ out the trash.
jerry:
So an ID scientist could do any experiment that any other scientist could do but could do more because current science wears a methodological straight jacket which ID does not have.
I understand. The trash, i.e. science as we know it has to be disposed of, only then will we see ID scientists going to work. A pity though that so much time's being wasted before we arrive in that brave new world.Cabal
December 10, 2009
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“Just curious, what’s the ID matrix for new discoveries?” One more comment which I should have emphasized. The typical anti ID person here assumes that ID is a restriction on science or a focus on an unproductive sub region of science. It is just the opposite. ID is an expansion of the current domain of science. All is up for exploration with an ID scientist, not so for an anti ID scientist.jerry
December 10, 2009
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"Just curious, what’s the ID matrix for new discoveries?" The same as any other good science. ID is about truth and any approach to science that is honest in it evaluation is part of the ID matrix for new discoveries. What distinguishes ID from the current group of science is one thing and one thing only. The range of conclusions one can reach based on the empirical evidence. Modern science is limited by design and as such is limited in what it can conclude and find. ID has no such limitations. So an ID scientist could do any experiment that any other scientist could do but could do more because current science wears a methodological straight jacket which ID does not have.jerry
December 10, 2009
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Historically, once we get rid of this: "... protected from honest evaluation by obfuscation, appeals to authority, attempts to control science media, concealment, labelling those who cannot replicate the results as cranks, persecuting dissenters, and pretending that speculation is evidence, among other unconstructive responses", genuinely new discoveries are more likely. That is, we don't even need an "ID matrix" yet; we need to rid ourselves of non-transparent behaviour first. That way, we know what we really don't know - an important form of knowledge, and fundamental to discovery. From that, an ID matrix may well grow. By analogy: I wouldn't try renovating an old building before takin' out the trash.O'Leary
December 10, 2009
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Say what you want about that stuff, it is not a matrix for new discoveries.
Just curious, what's the ID matrix for new discoveries?Cabal
December 10, 2009
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