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Must CSI Include the Probabilities of All Natural Processes — Known and Unknown?

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Over on another thread, there has been some discussion (among other things) about whether the concept of CSI must include a calculation of probabilities under all natural processes.  There are a number of interesting issues relating to CSI that might be worth exploring in more detail (including Learned Hand’s comments @47 of that thread, and the issues I mentioned @139).

For now, however, I want to simply flag an issue that has been harped on for years by various individuals (Liddle, ribczynski, and in the recent thread, keith s and wd400).  In summary, the argument is that without knowing all the probabilities of all possible natural processes we cannot ever be certain that some natural process didn’t produce the biological system in question, say, the bacterial flagellum.  And since we cannot be certain that some natural process didn’t do it, then we cannot ever be certain that it was designed.

The primary problem with such an argument is that it pretends to deal in certainties — exhausting all possible natural processes, known and unknown, that might have produced such a system.  In practice, it is essentially a claim that unless we are omniscient, we can never conclude design.  Apart from the wildly one-sided approach to such a position, it ignores the fact that intelligent design is about drawing reasonable inferences.  No-one has ever claimed to be able to do an exhaustive analysis of all possible natural causes, including those that haven’t been well defined or even thought up yet.  Nor does any branch of science proceed on such a basis.  Rather, we draw upon what we do know, the processes that we are aware of, and then make reasonable inferences.  That is why it is called a “design inference,” not a “design deduction” or an “exhaust-all-other-possibilities-before-we-can-say-anything” approach.  The inference to design operates, as does all reasonable scientific effort, on the basis of known processes.

Part of the discussion on the prior thread has focused on whether a natural process, like Darwinian evolution, has any reasonable probability of producing a complex, functional biological structure such as the bacterial flagellum within the resources of the known universe.  For those who don’t have the time or the stomach to wade through all the comments in the prior thread, I offer the following more succinct summary of this particular issue, in the form of a hypothetical (but, unfortunately, very true to life) conversation between an ID Proponent and a Darwinist:

ID Proponent:  Everyone from Darwin to Dawkins acknowledges that many biological systems appear designed.  Nevertheless, rather than just assuming design, in order to be scrupulously careful in our analysis we are also going to examine known natural processes to see if they have a realistic chance of forming such biological systems given the resources of the known universe.  [ID Proponent adds additional details about specification, etc., and then says:]  We’ll call this concept CSI.  Now when we look at such biological systems, say, the bacterial flagellum, and do some basic calculations on even the most fundamental informational structures required to construct the system, it appears the system contains CSI.

Darwinist:  Wait, wait!  Your calculation of CSI must include all known natural processes.  You forgot to include in your calculation my theory, which is that random mutations can be selected and preserved over time to form more complex and more functional structures.  We don’t need to form things all at once.  The bacterial flagellum came about through slight, successive changes.

ID Proponent:  Sure.  I’m happy to include known natural processes.  Have we ever seen something like a bacterial flagellum arise through Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist: No.  But that is only because it takes too long.  Indeed, my theory includes the idea that it takes so long that we shouldn’t expect to see such systems arising.  Or, alternatively, under a version called “punctuated equilibrium” that it happens quickly and in rare, largely unobserved situations.  In either case, we should not expect to see it happen.

ID Proponent:  Um, that seems pretty convenient, doesn’t it?  But OK.  Let’s include the probabilities of such a system coming about through Darwinian evolution.  What are the odds of the bacterial flagellum arising through your theory of Darwinian evolution?

Darwinist:  No-one knows.  We can’t do the calculation.

ID Proponent:  Well if there is no well-recognized way of calculating the probabilities of Darwinian evolution producing the bacterial flagellum, then I suppose I can’t calculate it either.  However, that . . .

Darwinist:  Aha!  I knew it.  You can’t do the calculation!  Therefore, your CSI concept is bunk and I win.

ID proponent:  Hold on just a minute, let me finish.  Let’s think through this.  You are telling me that I need to take into account the probabilities of your theory producing the bacterial flagellum, and then you say that under your theory you don’t know what the probabilities are?  So what do you want me to include?  After all, it is your theory, not mine.  I am only interested in known natural processes, so if we don’t know whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing the system in question then there is nothing to include.  At most, I guess we could add a caveat to our calculations that our number doesn’t include the probabilities of Darwinian evolution because no-one knows what those probabilities are.  Would that make you happy?

Darwinist:  No, you must include a calculation of probabilities under Darwinian evolution in order for your concept of CSI to be valid.  Otherwise, CSI is bunk.  You said you were going to include all natural processes in your calculation.

ID Proponent:  As I said, I am willing to include in CSI the probabilities of all known natural processes.  But I am not going to make up probabilities for some unknown, unconfirmed, process.  Again, if you have some details to offer about your theory that would allow us to include it in the calculation, I’m happy to do so.

Darwinist:  Nope.  Can’t be done.  I’m not going to tell you what the probabilities are under my theory.  But if you want to critique my theory and show that my theory isn’t plausible, you’ll have to come up with the probabilities of my theory on your own.

ID Proponent:  Hang on.  If I want to critique your theory I have to add some details to your theory that it currently doesn’t have?  Shouldn’t you be interested in knowing whether your theory has any reasonable probability of producing something like the bacterial flagellum?  Shouldn’t Darwinist theorists be anxiously and studiously analyzing what reasonable probabilities Darwinian evolution can overcome, what it can be expected to produce given the resources of the known universe, the “edge of evolution” so to speak?

Darwinist:  We don’t need to provide any such calculations because we believe Darwinian evolution did it.  And if you can’t provide the calculations for our theory then you can’t critique our theory.  Therefore your idea of CSI is bunk and we win!

 

Comments
Barry: “Of course, when you ask many Darwinists about the probability of their theory being correct you draw a blank stare.” Which is pretty much what happens when you ask an IDist about the probability of their theory being correct.
Or whether Intelligent Design has actually been confirmed detecting design in the real world. Or whether there are any plans to start testing its tools.Learned Hand
November 25, 2014
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Barry:
Of course, when you ask many Darwinists about the probability of their theory being correct you draw a blank stare.
Mark Frank:
Which is pretty much what happens when you ask an IDist about the probability of their theory being correct.
Particularly in Barry's case, since he's still trying to learn what ID is, exactly.keith s
November 25, 2014
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Dembski talks about this problem in Specification: The Pattern that Signifies Intelligence. As I read him, he rejects the idea that he has to know all possible chance hypotheses, because "the mere possibility that we might have missed some chance hypothesis is hardly reason to think that such a hypothesis was operating." But he acknowledges that he does have to "have a good grasp of what chance hypotheses would have been operating" in order to eliminate H. That sinks CSI as he wants to use it, as applied to life. Dembski needs to know the odds of a flagellum (or whatever else) evolving in order to eliminate the "chance" (actually more than just chance, so let's say "evolutionary") hypothesis. H in this case isn't something he can sweep under the "mere possibility that we might have missed some chance hypothesis" rug. Evolution is a pretty well-understood phenomenon, and there is a lot of background to support it as a hypothesis. Dembski acknowledges this; as I recall (I can't find the quote) he deals with it by pointing to irreducible complexity: if the thing couldn't have evolved, then the evolutionary hypothesis is excluded, and CSI exists. (Which is a neat trick, but again rules out CSI as a design-detection tool; it's circular if you're assuming a priori that the subject is unevolvable.) I don't think Dembski needs to know the odds of every junkyard-tornado hypothesis to run his CSI numbers. (Although they'll only be as good as his guesses about H.) But as he tries to use the calculations, he and I agree that he needs to know the odds on evolution. And there, he does need to consider whether all the possible evolutionary pathways are known. We're still way outside the "mere possibility that we might have missed some chance hypothesis" window, because even creationists admit that evolutionary pathways exist. If he can't calculate the odds of every possible evolutionary pathway--and I don't think anyone believes he can--then CSI isn't jut circular, it's an argument from ignorance: I don't know specifically how this might have evolved, so I'm going to exclude all the possibilities. (As opposed to discarding all completely unknown and unknowable possibilities; evolutionary hypotheses are distinguished, again, because even (most) creationists admit they happen.) In other words, given the limited availability of information about specific evolutionary steps over the past umpteen million years, when it comes to things like flagella Dembski will never "have a good grasp of what chance hypotheses would have been operating" sufficient to calculate CSI. It's a bit like trying to calculate all the forces acting on a satellite; if you don't know its exact altitude, you can't calculate gravity precisely. But if you ignore it, you're going to have an inaccurate calculation. If Dembski had been willing to accept inaccurate calculations, ironically, he'd be on much firmer footing. But he wanted to be immune to false positives, and made some rather bold claims. In Mere Creation, for example, he asserted that "whenever the Explanatory Filter attributes design, it does so correctly." Not if you don't know the odds of the competing hypotheses on the table, and not if you ignore the possibility that you might not know of other avenues. Dembski's pride wrote a check his math can't cash.Learned Hand
November 25, 2014
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Eric:
Dembski seeks to avoid false positives.
Much more than that. If he can't guarantee that they won't happen, he regards his criterion as "worthless". He writes:
Only things that are designed had better end up in the net. If this is the case, we can have confidence that whatever the complexity-specification criterion attributes to design is indeed designed. On the other hand, if things end up in the net that are not designed, the criterion will be worthless. [Emphasis added]
Look at those bolded words, Eric, and read them out loud. If Dembski wants to avoid false positives, then P(T|H) must account for every hypothesis that might push it above the UPB. Dembski foolishly created an impossible task for himself, which is why neither he nor anyone else has successfully calculated P(T|H) for a naturally occurring biological system.keith s
November 25, 2014
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Barry: "Of course, when you ask many Darwinists about the probability of their theory being correct you draw a blank stare." Which is pretty much what happens when you ask an IDist about the probability of their theory being correct.Mark Frank
November 25, 2014
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It hardly matters. Intelligent designers can produce trillions of objective nested hierarchies and unguided evolution can produce only a single objective nested hierarchy. It is therefore reasonable to infer that intelligent design is a better explanation than unguided evolution for any give ONH.Mung
November 25, 2014
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keith @3: You still seem fixated on the idea that we have to account for every possible naturalistic scenario, known and unknown. And you argue that this was Dembski's position. That is a misrepresentation. The quote you provide @3 from Dembski certainly does not state that. Nor does any reasonable or charitable interpretation of the quote. Dembski seeks to avoid false positives. That is a worthwhile goal.* And it has been a successful goal. No-one has ever shown that the design inference produces a false positive. What you are demanding is omniscience before we can draw any reasonable inference about the most likely cause of a biological system. That is just silly. Dembski never claimed that such omniscience was necessary, notwithstanding your strained interpretations to the contrary. ----- * We might note here for the record that, in stark contrast, materialistic evolutionary theory has no such humble or rigorous intent. It claims a grand, sweeping, all-encompassing, take-no-prisoners approach that cannot admit to even a single aspect of biology being purposefully designed. On the evidence, it is clear that evolutionary theory has produced innumerable false positives due to its lack of rigor. ----- By the way, I wasn't able to track down the Dembski quote you kept referring to on the other thread in which he refused to calculate the probabilities of the bacterial flagellum arising through purely natural processes. Were you able to find the quote? Less germane, but I'm curious to see his statement.Eric Anderson
November 25, 2014
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If intelligent designers can produce trillions of objective nested hierarchies, and unguided evolution can produce only a single objective nested hierarchy, then it is reasonable to infer that intelligent design is a better explanation than unguided evolution for any give ONH.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Eric:
Apart from the wildly one-sided approach to such a position, it ignores the fact that intelligent design is about drawing reasonable inferences.
No reasonable inference could lead to an inference of design. Ever. Never. It follows that unguided evolution is the best explanation. This can be shown by asserting that there are trillions of ways that guided evolution could produce what we observe, but only one way that unguided evolution could produce what we observe. Therefore the "one chance in hell" hypothesis must be correct. Occam sez so.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Eric, Walter ReMine provided calculations and submitted them to relevant journals, so they just refused to publish them. Nothing new here, they claimed.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Me_Think:
I have followed Gpuccio’s recent thread. It deals with calculating dFSCI of English Language (specifically Sonnets). He ran into trouble when trying to calculated dFSCI for ATP synthase.
So? Did Gpuccio provide a definition? Was it different from CSI as defined by Dembski? If your answer is yes and yes, do you mean that the issue you have with Gpuccio is that his particular derivation of CSI failed to show that proposed explanations for biological diversity are unlikely to create it.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Mung, I have followed Gpuccio's recent thread. It deals with calculating dFSCI of English Language (specifically Sonnets). He ran into trouble when trying to calculated dFSCI for ATP synthase.Me_Think
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
I’ve absolutely no idea what KF talks about when he posts here, apart from a strange belief in the power of log transforms.
That's a shame, really. You are one of the very few ID critics here at UD who might say something worth reading and responding to. If that's all you have managed to take away from the posts by kf here at UD it speaks volumes. wd400:
Last time I tried to engage with GP on these topics he claimed to be calculating Dembski’s CSI. Whatever his numbers mean, he doesn’t do anything to assess whether selection could generate them.
Nevertheless, I have provided two examples of people who post regularly here at UD, and who regularly defend their arguments. Both their arguments incorporate the essential concepts. You don't deny this. wd400:
If you want CSI to mean something other than that then by all means provide another definition. Then show that biology has it, and then show that proposed explanations for biological diversity are unlikely to create it.
Done and done. KF and Gpuccio are two examples.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Eric:
ID Proponent: As I said, I am willing to include in CSI the probabilities of all known natural processes. But I am not going to make up probabilities for some unknown, unconfirmed, process.
It isn't just unknown processes that you're omitting. Evolution is a known process, yet you cannot quantify the probability under the hypothesis of evolution. Why? It's simple: you can't know and quantify all of the possible evolutionary pathways. I wrote:
keiths on June 14, 2013 at 8:56 am said: Dembski is notorious for scoffing that
ID is not a mechanistic theory, and it’s not ID’s task to match your pathetic level of detail in telling mechanistic stories.
His statement was mocked for obvious reasons, but it was also unintentionally prophetic. He’s right that ID’s job isn’t to match evolution’s “pathetic level of detail” — ID has to exceed that level of detail in order to establish the value of P(T|H). Without a value for P(T|H), or at least a defensible upper bound on its value, the presence of CSI can never be demonstrated — by Dembski’s own rules. Think of what that would involve in the case of biology. You’d not only have to identify all possible mutational sequences leading to the feature in question — you’d also have to know the applicable fitness landscapes at each stage, which would mean knowing things like the local climatic patterns and the precise evolutionary histories of the other organisms in the shared ecosystem. If he didn’t realize it then, Dembski must certainly see by now that it’s a quixotic and hopeless task. That may be why he’s moved on to “the search for a search”.
keith s
November 25, 2014
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keiths, what's your opinion? Are there derivatives of CSI or not? How would you answer people who complain that derivatives of CSI are not CSI?Mung
November 25, 2014
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Me_Think:
Have you considered the fact that CSI or its derivatives don’t work because they are not meant to measure design in real world?
There are no derivatives of CSI. Didn't you read my post? You just don't get to have it both ways.Mung
November 25, 2014
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keiths:
He [Dembski] should never have claimed that his method could not produce false positives. That was a huge mistake.
Daniel King:
Did he have a choice? I suspect that he thought it necessary to argue for absolute certainty or be subject to all sorts of embarrassing statistical questions.
True, but at least there would have some wiggle room in trying to evade those embarrassing statistical questions. I think Dembski just didn't realize the implications of his "no false positives" claim. It's one of many examples of his shortsightedness and illogic.keith s
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
Mung — what’s the point of CSI?
You've been here a long time. Too long to be asking such stupid questions. Dembski explained the point of CSI, and the pint of CSI has been traced back at least as far as Orgel 1973. Orgel addressed complexity and specification and yes, even information. CSI. What's the point of CSI? Read Orgel.Mung
November 25, 2014
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Mung
It’s not about the point of CSI. It’s about the two-faced hypocrisy of the critics of CSI.
Have you considered the fact that CSI or its derivatives don't work because they are not meant to measure design in real world ? Just like white noise landscape based NFL or dreamland Law of conservation of Information ?Me_Think
November 25, 2014
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I’d like to hear your take on the criticisms of kf and gpuccio for not limiting themselves to CSI as defined by Dembski
I've absolutely no idea what KF talks about when he posts here, apart from a strange belief in teh power of log transforms. Last time I tried to engage with GP on these topics he claimed to be calculating Dembski's CSI. Whatever his numbers mean, he doesn't do anything to assess whether selection could generate them. I thought the point of CSI was to show evolutionary processes couldn't create some features of biology. If that's the case then CSI-users will need to do what I laid out.wd400
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
Mung — what’s the point of CSI?
What's the point of attempting to quantify anything at all? I'd like to hear your take on the criticisms of kf and gpuccio for not limiting themselves to CSI as defined by Dembski. Did you miss those? That's where the irony enters. ID'er 1: consider this ... Critic: But that's not CSI as defined by Dembski. ID'er 2: consider this ... Critic: But that's not CSI as defined by Dembski. ID'er: But it's in the spirit of Dembski. Critic: If you want CSI to mean something other than that [as defined by Dembski] then by all means provide another definition. Then show that biology has it, and then show that proposed explanations for biological diversity are unlikely to create it. Done and done. And the response is not to take the definition seriously, but to assert that it isn't CSI as defined by Dembski. LOL! Heads I win tails you lose. It's not about the point of CSI. It's about the two-faced hypocrisy of the critics of CSI.Mung
November 25, 2014
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That is part of the EQUATION that determines if the specification is the result of a intelligent design or not.. Yes.. and that means you need to include this quantity if you are going to calculate CSI.wd400
November 25, 2014
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Mung -- what's the point of CSI?wd400
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
If you want CSI to mean something other than that then by all means provide another definition. Then show that biology has it, and then show that proposed explanations for biological diversity are unlikely to create it.
You make me laugh. Really. Well no, not really. I am not laughing. Am I the only one to see the irony here?Mung
November 25, 2014
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There must be an ONH of threads inspired by keith s...Joe
November 25, 2014
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If someone ever shows it [Dembski's methodology] produces false positives you will have something to talk about. Your whining and promissory notes just don't cut it. Are keith and Daniel that ignorant that they don't realize that science is a tentative enterprise and all scientific inferences of today are open to falsification from scientific discoveries of tomorrow? Really?Joe
November 25, 2014
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Is there any thread at UD that was not inspired by Keith S?Mung
November 25, 2014
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He [Dembski] should never have claimed that his method could not produced false positives. That was a huge mistake.
Did he have a choice? I suspect that he thought it necessary to argue for absolute certainty or be subject to all sorts of embarrassing statistical questions.Daniel King
November 25, 2014
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wd400:
Dembski defined CSI as including the term P(T|H).
That is part of the EQUATION that determines if the specification is the result of a intelligent design or not. With respect to biology CSI is defined as Crick defined biological information.Joe
November 25, 2014
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Barry:
If Dembski isn’t omniscient he can’t make an inference to the best explanation? Talk about stacking the rules of the game.
Yes, and he did it to himself, as I showed above. He should never have claimed that his method could not produced false positives. That was a huge mistake.keith s
November 25, 2014
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