Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Reasonableness of God as World-root Being, the IS that grounds OUGHT and Cosmos-Architect

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The core challenge being addressed (as we respond to abuse of a critical thinking curriculum)  is the notion that belief in the reality of God is a culturally induced, poorly grounded commonplace notion. An easily dismissed cultural myth or prejudice, in short.

Let us remind ourselves of the curriculum content used by teachers in a district in Texas until protest led to removal of the focal question:

God_myth_sch_test

Fox26_God_myth_20pts

Having:

  • shown that such belief is deeply rooted in key, serious thought (also note vids 1: Kreeft, 2: Zacharias, 3: Craig, also 4: Stroebel on Jesus),
  • (exposing the flying spaghetti monster parody as strawman fallacy)
  • and noting (cf here in op and here as a comment)  how it underpins the moral fabric of governance for modern liberty and democracy by way of reference to the US DoI 1776 in context
  •  and having reminded one and all that lab coat clad evolutionary materialist scientism is self-referentially incoherent and so self-falsifying [as in, the shoe is on the other foot],

. . . we should now turn to the responsible reasonableness of ethical theism.

No, we are not here claiming certain proof of the reality of God that once dismissed can lead to an assumed atheistical default. Instead, ethical theism starts as a responsible worldview with substantial evidence and reasoning so that proper education will respect it as a serious option and will address the comparative difficulties challenge (cf. tip sheet) — factual adequacy, coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory adequacy — faced by all worldviews:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Just the opposite of the cynically dismissive one liner presented by the critical thinking curriculum, so called.

As a first point, we briefly reflect on modes of being and the significance of such for world-roots given functionally specific complex organisation, cosmological fine tuning and our patent staus as under moral governance as pointers.

First, an in-brief:

>>Our observed cosmos — the only actually, indisputably observed cosmos — is credibly contingent. That points beyond itself to adequate cause of a fine tuned cosmos set to a locally deeply isolated operating point for C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based terrestrial planet life. Life which BTW is based on coded information . . . language! right from the origin of cell based life . . . used in exquisitely intricate cybernetic systems that run the smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata with integral code using von Neumann kinematic self replicators we find in cells. That in the end through even multiverse speculations, points to necessary, intelligent, awesomely powerful being as source. Design by a creator beyond the cosmos. One intent on life like ours. Mix in moral government and we are at the inherent reasonableness of a creator capable of grounding ought. Just one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of our loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. No, we are not talking about poorly supported popular notions here, but of course, when the evolutionary materialist lab coat clad magisterium controls and censors what gets into the curricula they can make it seem that way.>>

Now, we can think of possible vs impossible beings (you, me, a unicorn vs a square circle). The latter cannot be in any possible world as the cluster of core requirements (a) squarishness and (b) circularity stand in mutual contradiction and cannot all be actualised in one and the same thing at once under the same circumstances.

The former, can exist in at least one possible world, whether or not they are actual in this world (the only generally observed actualised world).

Also, try to imagine a world in which the truth asserted in: 2 + 3 = 5 is false or was not so then came into being at some point or can cease to be so. No such world is possible, this proposition is a necessary though abstract being. That is, it is so anchored to the roots and framework for a world to be actualised that it will be so in any possible world:

|| + ||| –> |||||

(Where we can start with the set that collects nothing and compose the natural numbers etc, {} –>0, {0}–> 1, {0, 1} –> 2, etc.)

This allows us to understand that of possible beings some are contingent, some are necessary. Contingent beings will exist in some actualisable worlds but not in all such possible worlds. Necessary beings, by contrast are foundational to any actualisable world existing.

Contingent beings, then, depend on what I have termed external, on/off enabling causal factors (strictly, dynamically necessary causal factors), much like a fire depends for its beginning and sustained existence on heat, fuel, oxidiser and an un-interfered- with combustion chain reaction:

Fire_tetrahedronBy contrast, necessary beings do not have that sort of dynamical, causal dependence.

This has a major consequence, especially when we see that we live in a world that per the big bang and fine tuning considerations, is credibly contingent and in fact credibly finitely old, typically 13.7 or 13.8 BY being a conventional estimate:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

Typically the talk is of a singularity and perhaps a fluctuation. But the point is, finitely remote, changeable, composite, contingent. Caused, requiring a sufficient cluster of underlying dynamical antecedents/ factors that include at minimum all necessary factors.

But there is more.

For by contrast with being we can have non-being, a genuine nothing (and no a suggested quantum foam with fluctuations, etc, is not a genuine nothing, regardless of clever talking points).

vNSR
Illustrating a von Neumann, kinematic self replicator with integral universal computer

Non-being can have no causal capabilities, and so if there ever were a genuine nothing, such would forever obtain. That is, if a world now is (and a credibly contingent one) it points to something that always was, a necessary, independent, world-root being dynamically sufficient to account for the world that now is. A world with evident beginning at a finitely remote point, with evident fine tuning that sets its physics to a locally deeply isolated operating point that sets it up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium terrestrial planet, cell based life. Life, that is based on smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata that enfold an integral code using — language! communication and control systems! — von Neumann kinematic self replication facility. A class of machines we know how to conceptualise and initially analyse, but not at all how to design and implement. Worse, where we are conscious, intelligent, morally governed life forms in this cosmos that require a bridge between IS and OUGHT.

Already, we see that a very reasonable worldview stance would be that the cosmos comes from a necessary, highly intelligent, designing world root being who is a necessary being, and thus would be immaterial and intelligent, so minded. Even, through a multiverse speculation (which is spectacularly in violation of requisites of empirical substantiation and the multiplication of entities without clear necessity).

Moreover, as one scans the debates on worldviews foundations across the centuries, it is clear that there is just one credible place for there to be an IS that also grounds OUGHT in a reasonable way: the roots of reality.

There is just one serious candidate to be such a necessary being — flying spaghetti monsters et al (as we already saw) need not apply, they are patently contingent and are material — namely,

THE GOD OF ETHICAL THEISM: the inherently good and wise Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; one worthy of our loyalty and of the reasonable and responsible service of doing the good in accordance with our evident nature and circumstances.

That is, ethical theism is a reasonable, and intellectually viable worldview stance. It is also a descriptive term for the underlying worldview of the Judaeo-Christian Faith and theological tradition that is core to our civilisation and the foundation of that tradition, God. Where the God of Scripture says of himself c 1460 BC, I AM THAT I AM, i.e. necessary, eternal being, something not understood as to significance until many centuries later.

And in that context, it is the Christian tradition that this same God has come among us, as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who fulfills the prophecies in that scriptural tradition and now sends forth his apostles and disciples into the world who are to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves:

the_stone_of Daniels_vision

cornerstone-foundn_of_the_kingdomseven_mountains_fulness_vision

So, let us ponder Stroebel on Jesus:

[vimeo 17960119]

And, let us ponder Peter as he faced death by sentence of Kangaroo Court on a false accusation of treasonous arson against Rome, c 65 AD:

2 Peter 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . .

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In short, contrary to the false impression created by the authors of the curriculum in Texas, ethical theism in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is a reasonable faith and worldview stance, one to be treated with respect rather than their patent disdain.

And, of course, this post is open for responsible discussion. END

Comments
GE, I call a name, Piaget. Abstract thinking ability typically develops under stimulation across the teens, but it is only fully developed in 1/3 of adults. Under good circumstances with abundant stimulation. This does not include typical idiot box fare and typical entertainment music. A culture of serious reading helps a lot. Learning real literature helps. Apparently, playing serious music and learning to understand it helps. So does the pattern concrete, pictorial, abstract. Visual analysis languages such as block diagram algebra and flow charts help. Thus, study of computer science and core electronics or the like. This is tied to struggles with learning Mathematics, etc. I repeat, the typical 12 year old is not ready to handle a worldviews analysis with sophisticated elements. When it comes to the idea of God and Systematic Theology, a short survey is 1,000 pp and full bore works are 3,000 - 6,000 pp, with Barth at was it 12,000. Yes a 12 yo can memorise the Nicene creed and learn rudiments including decisive evidence that is historically anchored, but that is worlds different from independently handling a full bore worldviews case. It is not for nothing that Peter noted of co-apostle Paul that in his theologically sophisticated writings are things hard to be understood that the unstable and unlearned wrench to their ruin, as they wrench the other scriptures. Where, too a similar thing can be said about mathematical or scientific foundations, but there is of course no hesitation to teach rudiments. And such issues are particularly relevant in a context where due to manipulation of law, a serious presentation of the case for ethical theism in the US is censored out. What was done in Katy TX was inexcusible, and the manipulation, back pedalling, damage control and snide dismissing of a brave little girl who blew the whistle was equally inexcusible. KFkairosfocus
December 15, 2015
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As before, anybody who can understand tic tac toe can understand the conceptual scheme as I have explained it. The conceptual scheme has a few simple rules. You are a liar. You say that you "don't understand" is because you define choosing in terms of sorting out the best option, using the facts about good and evil as sorting-criteria. KJB "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."mohammadnursyamsu
December 15, 2015
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You can keep on churning those diatribes, ranting all over and posturing left and right or you can face the truth: You cannot explain your position, deal with it! It's your credibility at stake. Next time you post something that deserves a response, I'll comment but if you wanna keep burping, talk to the combox. It'll keep you comfy and safely tucked into your imagination. Ciao :DVy
December 15, 2015
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@vy I've dealt with dozens the likes of you. You've got no argumentation, so then you scoff. And then you just go on and on and on, although you've got nothing. You're a liar.mohammadnursyamsu
December 15, 2015
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You do nothing but scoffing. You perfectly understand when I call you evil. It is the way common discourse works, expression of emotion with free will, in regards to agency, resulting in an opinion. You are a liar.
I see you haven't bought the mirror. You cannot explain your position, deal with it!Vy
December 15, 2015
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I guess I read your post wrong then. What is your concept about fact and opinion?mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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"It is of course empty words to say the answer is opinion when you never thought about how forming an opinion works, what an opinion is, as distinct from how a fact is obtained, and what a fact is." Why do you assume I haven't? "And your disagreement with the creationist concept of opinion is likewise based on the say so of the oracle that is George Edwards, and not on any argumentation, any conceptual scheme." But, again, I find it strange that people would conclude this about me without once asking me what my "conceptual scheme" was. As KF says (ad nauseum), "Very telling", or "Speaks volumes".George Edwards
December 14, 2015
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@george It is of course empty words to say the answer is opinion when you never thought about how forming an opinion works, what an opinion is, as distinct from how a fact is obtained, and what a fact is. And your disagreement with the creationist concept of opinion is likewise based on the say so of the oracle that is George Edwards, and not on any argumentation, any conceptual scheme.mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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MN (you really need a user name that is easier to type out on a small smart phone): "To say the answer is “opinion” is just empty words without a conceptual scheme to back it up. I did say that I had reasons for my answer. If you want to hear them, I will certainly tell you. All you have to do is ask. With respect to free will, I am of the opinion that it can't be proved one way or the othe so it is not worth wasting time over it. "Are you a supporter of the concept of “opinion”, subjectivity, or are you trying to corrupt the meaning of “opinion” / subjectivity?" Never bothered thinking about it. I was just answering the question. "“Opinion” as it is in common discourse, like with the statement “the painting is beautiful” is an inherently creationist concept, depending upon having faith in the existence of agency of a decision." I disagree. I think the concept of beauty is completely subjective. For example, I think I am a beautiful person. I suspect KF and Jack Jones disagree. But I will still sleep well at night.George Edwards
December 14, 2015
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@george edwards To say the answer is "opinion" is just empty words without a conceptual scheme to back it up. As before, the atheist Daniel Dennett accepts free will is real. But he defines free will as that he could not have done otherwise. Is Dennett a supporter of the concept of free will, or is he an enemy of the concept trying to corrupt it? Are you a supporter of the concept of "opinion", subjectivity, or are you trying to corrupt the meaning of "opinion" / subjectivity? "Opinion" as it is in common discourse, like with the statement "the painting is beautiful" is an inherently creationist concept, depending upon having faith in the existence of agency of a decision.mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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KF: "MN, A test to discriminate fact, opinion and common notions of questionable basis that involve major worldview debates is not suited for 12 year olds. KF" You greatly under underestimate the reasoning capabilities of children. In many cases they are better at reasoning than many adults because they have not yet institutionalized the biases that we all have. But let's take you opinion to its logical conclusion. If 12 year olds are too young to be involved in worldview debates, then they are too young to be taught that any one worldview (e.g., a religious worldview) is correct. As such, children should not be taught any religion until they are old enough and mature enough to decide for themselves what worldview they think is the right one. I think that the question that the teacher asked was ill advised. Not because it is not a valid question, but because it has no place in a public school. But on a blog like this, or even in a blog designed for 12 year olds, it is a valid question. My answer to the question would be "opinion", and can support it with reasons that I think rational and justified. KF's answer would be "fact". And he would support it with reasons that he thinks are rational and justified. That's life. Accept it.George Edwards
December 14, 2015
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@vy Actually it was jack jones who tried to look up dirt on me on the internet, and put that up for argument. So I stand corrected. The issue is a test a 12 year old took on the difference between fact and opinion. I explained how fact and opinion work. You do nothing but scoffing. You perfectly understand when I call you evil. It is the way common discourse works, expression of emotion with free will, in regards to agency, resulting in an opinion. You are a liar.mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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Vy, language. Also, perhaps it is time to simply note a for record and move back to the thread's proper focus. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2015
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More of your scoffing, without doing any work whatsoever.
Oh pumpkin, sorry I don't speak gibberish. It's nice to see you're very fluent in it.
You are just like the 10’s of millions of communists and nazi’s who conceive of good and evil as fact. Or so to say, the rejection of subjectivity follows from the commonly human head vs heart struggle.
[Snip. Ed]
So you have no point that “nobody” understands it, it is very common to reject subjectivity.
Looks like you can't read straight, I said nobody understands what you are babbling about, not nobody rejects subjectivity.
One can see that you are just being fascistic in that you provide no argumentation whatsoever
The only "One" here is YOU and so all your babble is just hot air.
and then you try to dig up some personal dirt on me on the internet.
Er, what???
You are evil.
Pick up a mirror and read that to your reflection. :D
I express my emotions with my free will, about who you are making the decisions that you do. And that choice results in the opinion that you are evil.
A simple mirror will suffice.
Supposedly you do not understand this procedure of forming an opinion
I do not understand the gibberish you're spitting out, FULL STOP. Stop displaying your lack of reading comprehension, it's making your already minuscule credibility vanish.
but I take it that you are just a fascist and a liar, you do understand perfectly.
Get that mirror!Vy
December 14, 2015
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MN, you seem to be oblivious to the state of the law in the USA (the relevant context) as regards Crestionism and public education. Never mind the issue that worldviews is what has to be dealt with. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2015
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As before, I am pretty sure 12 year olds already benefit directly on a practical basis, from being taught to distinguish fact from opinion. There is a plethora of teaching material readily available on google. https://www.google.nl/search?q=fact+opinion&rlz=1C1CAFB_enNL644NL645&espv=2&biw=1280&bih=855&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjBpdyrs9vJAhVB_g4KHQuLDYgQ_AUIBigB And creationism has 2 simple categories. I don't see why children wouldn't be capable to put statements in the creator, choosing, spiritual, opinion category, and the creation, chosen, material, fact category. It is much intuitive to put love, hate, fear etc into the cateory of opinion, and put stones, tables, plants into the fact categorymohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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MN, A test to discriminate fact, opinion and common notions of questionable basis that involve major worldview debates is not suited for 12 year olds. KFkairosfocus
December 14, 2015
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@kairosfocus The topic is also the test that 12 year old took distinghuishing between fact, opinon and common assertion. So the issue of distinguishing between fact and opinion applies. Again, I am simply right. You could teach creationism by teaching the difference between fact and opinion more precisely, as I have explained. Atheism / materialism etc. is simply one more manifestation of the commonly human head vs heart struggle, rejecting subjectivity. The hollywood stereotype of an atheist is also that they reject subjectivity, that they regard what is good, loving and beautiful as fact. As for example the Sheldon character in the big bang theory tv sitcom. Atheism, materialism etc. is more this mental condition of rejection of subjectivity, rather than a well thought out set of ideas. Still you provide no evaluation of the importance of subjectivity in people's lives. It very obviously has immediate practical importance, unlike theories about something happening thousands of years ago, which only have incidental importance. So to say, you are ignoring the big issue in creationism vs evolution.mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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More of your scoffing, without doing any work whatsoever. You are just like the 10's of millions of communists and nazi's who conceive of good and evil as fact. Or so to say, the rejection of subjectivity follows from the commonly human head vs heart struggle. So you have no point that "nobody" understands it, it is very common to reject subjectivity. One can see that you are just being fascistic in that you provide no argumentation whatsoever, and then you try to dig up some personal dirt on me on the internet. You are evil. I express my emotions with my free will, about who you are making the decisions that you do. And that choice results in the opinion that you are evil. Supposedly you do not understand this procedure of forming an opinion, but I take it that you are just a fascist and a liar, you do understand perfectly.mohammadnursyamsu
December 14, 2015
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The rules in the conceptual scheme are more simple than the rules of tic tac toe. That it is so simple leaves no room for not understanding it.
That's certainly true for you, after all, you're the one with the ideas but for everyone else, it makes no sense whatsoever. As for a "conceptual scheme of subjectivity", the only one I know of (assuming I understand what "scheme" means to you) is the one which is so obvious even from the definition of the word: Your opinion takes precedence. All this talk about xyz is inherently creationism or whatever no makes sense, at all! You can accept that or get angry but the fact is that you've been unsuccessful in presenting a coherent explanation of your position. Good luck.Vy
December 13, 2015
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Fair enough. Can I then ask that Vy’s comment be “snipped” and she be given a final warning.
I bet you'd love that. Here's the reality: You claimed there's not a "peep" about slavery (in the modern context) in the Bible. A simple google search confirmed 2 things everybody who isn't as confused as you already knew: - it was a baseless and demonstrably false claim. - whenever an Atheist says anything about the Bible, never deceive yourself into believing telling the truth is a priority.
After all, my comment was simply a response to hers.
Whatever your typical Atheistic regurgitated response was, it amounts to nothing more than a poorly set up bait-and-switch. Your claim was false. Full Stop. And it's "he", not "she". That's all I have to say. [Okay, Vy, you felt a need to reply, on balance I will let this pass, but the side track is gavelled. KF]Vy
December 13, 2015
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Folks, pardon the docs dump, but there is a pervasive revisionist narrative that needs to be corrected and on long observation only original documents will have sufficient force; where on recent observation a mere link will be ignored. Meanwhile we need to reckon with the curriculum manipulation pointed out and addressed in the OP. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2015
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GE, A FYI. In fact the US DoI's collective responsible drafters -- the Continental Congress, overwhelmingly, were Christian (as has been documented) . . . as would be expected at that time and place. And the calls to prayer of May 1776 and Dec 1777 give a clear context. Besides, the force of the principles depends on what they state in documentary and historical context, rather than what particular beliefs or unbeliefs given individuals involved may have held. Another factor is the Hebraic sense of reverence for the name of God led to a tendency to indirectly refer to God. As we look at the actual key 2nd paragraph of the DoI as was cited above, it is clearly founded on ethical theism and the double covenant view of nationhood under God and legitimate government under God with the consent of the governed. Indeed, I will also point to an exemplar that seems to have influenced the DoI, the Dutch declaration of 1581 that is shaped by themes in Vindiciae Contra Tyrannos of 1579, and is of course part of the political legacy of Calvinism:
. . . a prince is constituted by God to be ruler of a people, to defend them from oppression and violence as the shepherd his sheep; and whereas God did not create the people slaves to their prince, to obey his commands, whether right or wrong, but rather the prince for the sake of the subjects (without which he could be no prince), to govern them according to equity, to love and support them as a father his children or a shepherd his flock, and even at the hazard of life to defend and preserve them. And when he does not behave thus, but, on the contrary, oppresses them, seeking opportunities to infringe their ancient customs and privileges . . . then he is no longer a prince, but a tyrant, and the subjects are to consider him in no other view . . . This is the only method left for subjects whose humble petitions and remonstrances could never soften their prince or dissuade him from his tyrannical proceedings; and this is what the law of nature dictates for the defense of liberty, which we ought to transmit to posterity, even at the hazard of our lives. . . . . So, having no hope of reconciliation, and finding no other remedy, we have, agreeable to the law of nature in our own defense, and for maintaining the rights, privileges, and liberties of our countrymen, wives, and children, and latest posterity from being enslaved by the Spaniards, been constrained to renounce allegiance to the King of Spain, and pursue such methods as appear to us most likely to secure our ancient liberties and privileges.
I note a comment made by the Library of Congress on a recent exhibition of founding documents which I believe is still online:
The Continental-Confederation Congress, a legislative body that governed the United States from 1774 to 1789, contained an extraordinary number of deeply religious men . . . both the legislators and the public considered it appropriate for the national government to promote a nondenominational, nonpolemical Christianity . . . . Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people . . . The first national government of the United States, was convinced that the "public prosperity" of a society depended on the vitality of its religion. Nothing less than a "spirit of universal reformation among all ranks and degrees of our citizens," Congress declared to the American people, would "make us a holy, that so we may be a happy people."
This context extends to the framework of the constitution. Indeed, in spiritual terms the overlooked key founding documents are precisely the calls to prayer of 1776 and 1777, which jointly express a definite understanding of a covenant of nationhood under God. God understood in a distinctly Judaeo-Christian frame. And unsurprisingly so as the sense of American-ness was strongly shaped by the first American, national event: the Great Awakening under George Whitefield et al. (Another commonly overlooked factor.) Having already pointed to the DoI and calls to solemn assembly and prayer under God, let me show the grand statement documentary structure of the 1787 Constitution, by way of further illustration:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America . . . . [Main Body, Arts I - VII] . . . . Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth. In Witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names. . . . . [AMENDMENTS].
This document seeks to deliver (second time around) on the good government clause of the DoI, in accord with the right of reformation. In so doing it speaks to the blessings of Liberty that are in the key calls to prayer and it sets itself as a part of the world of Christendom, referring to the year of our risen Lord. In the first amendment, the freedom and non establishment of religion clauses apply the principles of the 1648 Westphalia settlement to federal republican circumstances. Instead of the locality following the religion of the prince that is left to the will of the state, while protecting dissenters; in a context where freedom of expression is guaranteed as well as association, press, assembly and petition for redress. Yes, these are specifically responsive to the concerns of the dissenters who pushed for specific guarantees on rights; wisely as can be seen. At that time, nine states did in fact have their own established churches. And, by granting it no jurisdiction to rule on establishment of a church of the united States, the amdt locked out of the federal government the power to set up a national church. (Long since usurped by the de facto establishment of the anti church of radically secularist evolutionary materialist scientism and its fellow travellers. Which has produced precisely the sort of intractable conflicts that the framers tried to head off.) While I am at it, let me show the similar structure of attempt no 1, the articles of confederation of 1778:
To all to whom these Presents shall come, we the undersigned Delegates of the States affixed to our Names send greeting. Whereas the Delegates of the United States of America in Congress assembled did on the fifteenth day of November in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy seven, and in the Second Year of the Independence of America, agree to certain articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . in the words following, viz: Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the States of New Hampshire, Massachusetts-bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia . . . . [ARTICLES I - XIII] And Whereas it hath pleased the Great Governor of the World to incline the hearts of the legislatures we respectively represent in Congress, to approve of, and to authorize us to ratify the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union. Know Ye that we the undersigned delegates, by virtue of the power and authority to us given for that purpose, do by these presents, in the name and in behalf of our respective constituents, fully and entirely ratify and confirm each and every of the said Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union . . . . In Witness whereof we have hereunto set our hands in Congress. Done at Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania the ninth day of July in the Year of our Lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Seventy-Eight, and in the Third Year of the independence of America.
So, the ethical theistic and particularly Judaeo-Christian context is plain. The secularist revisionists are demonstrably wrong. The Trinity US Supreme Court decision of 1893,summarising the history and heritage, is correct -- not a nation with a dominant national church but a Christian nation nonetheless:
The Act of February 26, 1880, "to prohibit the importation and migration of foreigners and aliens under contract or agreement to perform labor in the United States, its Territories, and the District of Columbia," 23 Stat. 332, c. 164, does not apply to a contract between an alien, residing out of the United States, and a religious society incorporated under the laws of a state, whereby he engages to remove to the United States and to enter into the service of the society as its rector or minister . . . . We find, therefore, that the title of the act, the evil which was intended to be remedied, the circumstances surrounding the appeal to Congress, the reports of the committee of each house, all concur in affirming that the intent of Congress was simply to stay the influx of this cheap unskilled labor. But, beyond all these matters, no purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation. The commission to Christopher Columbus, prior to his sail westward, is from "Ferdinand and Isabella, by the grace of God, King and Queen of Castile," etc., and recites that "it is hoped that by God's assistance some of the continents and islands in the Page 143 U. S. 466 ocean will be discovered," etc. The first colonial grant, that made to Sir Walter Raleigh in 1584, was from "Elizabeth, by the grace of God, of England, Fraunce and Ireland, Queene, defender of the faith," etc., and the grant authorizing him to enact statutes of the government of the proposed colony provided that "they be not against the true Christian faith nowe professed in the Church of England." The first charter of Virginia, granted by King James I in 1606, after reciting the application of certain parties for a charter, commenced the grant in these words: "We, greatly commending, and graciously accepting of, their Desires for the Furtherance of so noble a Work, which may, by the Providence of Almighty God, hereafter tend to the Glory of his Divine Majesty, in propagating of Christian Religion to such People, as yet live in Darkness and miserable Ignorance of the true Knowledge and Worship of God, and may in time bring the Infidels and Savages, living in those parts, to human Civility, and to a settled and quiet government; DO, by these our Letters-Patents, graciously accept of, and agree to, their humble and well intended Desires." Language of similar import may be found in the subsequent charters of that colony, from the same king, in 1609 and 1611, and the same is true of the various charters granted to the other colonies. In language more or less emphatic is the establishment of the Christian religion declared to be one of the purposes of the grant. The celebrated compact made by the pilgrims in the Mayflower, 1620, recites: "Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a Voyage to plant the first Colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these Presents, solemnly and mutually, in the Presence of God and one another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid." The fundamental orders of Connecticut, under which a provisional government was instituted in 1638-39, commence with this declaration: "Forasmuch as it hath pleased the Allmighty God by the wise disposition of his diuyne pruidence Page 143 U. S. 467 so to Order and dispose of things that we the Inhabitants and Residents of Windsor, Hartford, and Wethersfield are now cohabiting and dwelling in and vppon the River of Conectecotte and the Lands thereunto adioyneing; And well knowing where a people are gathered togather the word of God requires that to mayntayne the peace and vnion of such a people there should be an orderly and decent Gouerment established according to God, to order and dispose of the affayres of the people at all seasons as occation shall require; doe therefore assotiate and conioyne our selues to be as one Publike state or Comonwelth, and doe, for our selues and our Successors and such as shall be adioyned to vs att any tyme hereafter, enter into Combination and Confederation togather, to mayntayne and presearue the liberty and purity of the gospell of our Lord Jesus weh we now prfesse, as also the disciplyne of the Churches, weh according to the truth of the said gospell is now practiced amongst vs." In the charter of privileges granted by William Penn to the province of Pennsylvania, in 1701, it is recited: "Because no People can be truly happy, though under the greatest Enjoyment of Civil Liberties, if abridged of the Freedom of their Consciences, as to their Religious Profession and Worship; And Almighty God being the only Lord of Conscience, Father of Lights and Spirits, and the Author as well as Object of all divine Knowledge, Faith, and Worship, who only doth enlighten the Minds, and persuade and convince the Understandings of People, I do hereby grant and declare," etc. Coming nearer to the present time, the declaration of independence recognizes the presence of the Divine in human affairs in these words: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that thet are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. . . . We therefore the Representatives of the united states of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name and by Authority of the good these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare," etc.; "And for the Page 143 U. S. 468 support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor." If we examine the constitutions of the various states, we find in them a constant recognition of religious obligations. Every Constitution of every one of the forty-four states contains language which, either directly or by clear implication, recognizes a profound reverence for religion, and an assumption that its influence in all human affairs is essential to the wellbeing of the community. This recognition may be in the preamble, such as is found in the Constitution of Illinois, 1870: "We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political, and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing upon our endeavors to secure and transmit the same unimpaired to succeeding generations," etc. It may be only in the familiar requisition that all officers shall take an oath closing with the declaration, "so help me God." It may be in clauses like that of the Constitution of Indiana, 1816, Art. XI, section 4: "The manner of administering an oath or affirmation shall be such as is most consistent with the conscience of the deponent, and shall be esteemed the most solemn appeal to God." Or in provisions such as are found in Articles 36 and 37 of the declaration of rights of the Constitution of Maryland, 1867: "That, as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty, wherefore no person ought, by any law, to be molested in his person or estate on account of his religious persuasion or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace, or safety of the state, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil, or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent or maintain or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain any place of worship or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness or juror on account of his religious belief, provided he Page 143 U. S. 469 believes in the existence of God, and that, under his dispensation, such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefor, either in this world or the world to come. That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this state, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this constitution." Or like that in Articles 2 and 3 of part 1st of the Constitution of Massachusetts, 1780: "It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. . . . As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of public instructions in piety, religion, and morality, therefore, to promote their happiness, and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies politic or religious societies to make suitable provision at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality, in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily." Or, as in sections 5 and 14 of Article 7 of the Constitution of Mississippi, 1832: "No person who denies the being of a God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state. . . . Religion morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government, the preservation of liberty, and the happiness of mankind, schools, and the means of education, shall forever be encouraged in this state." Or by Article 22 of the Constitution of Delaware, (1776), which required all officers, besides an oath of allegiance, to make and subscribe the following declaration: "I, A. B., do profess Page 143 U. S. 470 faith in God the Father, and in Jesus Christ His only Son, and in the Holy Ghost, one God, blessed for evermore, and I do acknowledge the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by divine inspiration." Even the Constitution of the United States, which is supposed to have little touch upon the private life of the individual, contains in the First Amendment a declaration common to the constitutions of all the states, as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," etc., and also provides in Article I, Section 7, a provision common to many constitutions, that the executive shall have ten days (Sundays excepted) within which to determine whether he will approve or veto a bill. There is no dissonance in these declarations. There is a universal language pervading them all, having one meaning. They affirm and reaffirm that this is a religious nation. These are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons. They are organic utterances. They speak the voice of the entire people. While, because of a general recognition of this truth, the question has seldom been presented to the courts, yet we find that in Updegraph v. Commonwealth, 11 S. & R. 394, 400, it was decided that "Christianity, general Christianity, is, and always has been, a part of the common law of Pennsylvania; . . . not Christianity with an established church and tithes and spiritual courts, but Christianity with liberty of conscience to all men." And in People v. Ruggles, 8 Johns. 290, 294-295, Chancellor Kent, the great commentator on American law, speaking as Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of New York, said: "The people of this state, in common with the people of this country, profess the general doctrines of Christianity as the rule of their faith and practice, and to scandalize the author of these doctrines is not only, in a religious point of view, extremely impious, but, even in respect to the obligations due to society, is a gross violation of decency and good order. . . . The free, equal, and undisturbed enjoyment of religious opinion, whatever it may be, and free and decent discussions on any religious Page 143 U. S. 471 subject, is granted and secured; but to revile, with malicious and blasphemous contempt, the religion professed by almost the whole community is an abuse of that right. Nor are we bound by any expressions in the Constitution, as some have strangely supposed, either not to punish at all, or to punish indiscriminately the like attacks upon the religion of Mahomet or of the Grand Lama, and for this plain reason, that the case assumes that we are a Christian people, and the morality of the country is deeply engrafted upon Christianity, and not upon the doctrines or worship of those impostors." And in the famous case of Vidal v. Girard's Executors, 2 How. 127, 43 U. S. 198, this Court, while sustaining the will of Mr. Girard, with its provision for the creation of a college into which no minister should be permitted to enter, observed: "It is also said, and truly, that the Christian religion is a part of the common law of Pennsylvania." If we pass beyond these matters to a view of American life, as expressed by its laws, its business, its customs, and its society, we find every where a clear recognition of the same truth. Among other matters, note the following: the form of oath universally prevailing, concluding with an appeal to the Almighty; the custom of opening sessions of all deliberative bodies and most conventions with prayer; the prefatory words of all wills, "In the name of God, amen;" the laws respecting the observance of the Sabbath, with the general cessation of all secular business, and the closing of courts, legislatures, and other similar public assemblies on that day; the churches and church organizations which abound in every city, town, and hamlet; the multitude of charitable organizations existing every where under Christian auspices; the gigantic missionary associations, with general support, and aiming to establish Christian missions in every quarter of the globe. These, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation. In the face of all these, shall it be believed that a Congress of the United States intended to make it a misdemeanor for a church of this country to contract for the services of a Christian minister residing in another nation?
For more, cf here on in context. More broadly, the issue is not that things seem not too bad now, but the implications of the undermining of foundations of moral government. An excellent example of across time implications is from Heinrich Heine's literary, prophetic warning to Germany at the turn of the 1830's, which speaks to both Prussianism and Nazism:
Christianity — and that is its greatest merit — has somewhat mitigated that brutal German love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered [--> the Swastika, visually, is a twisted, broken cross . . do not overlook the obvious], the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame [--> an irrational battle- and blood- lust]. … The old stone gods will then rise from long ruins and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and Thor will leap to life with his giant hammer and smash the Gothic cathedrals. … … Do not smile at my advice — the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder … comes rolling somewhat slowly, but … its crash … will be unlike anything before in the history of the world. … At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead [--> cf. air warfare, symbol of the USA], and lions in farthest Africa [--> the lion is a key symbol of Britain, cf. also the North African campaigns] will draw in their tails and slink away. … A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll. [Religion and Philosophy in Germany, 1831]
We do not realise the potential force of the matches we are playing with. KFkairosfocus
December 13, 2015
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Sorry KF, but what is written In a political document, which the DOI is, is not proof of what the drafters actually believed. It was written to convince the masses, and the masses were largely Christian. Even today, no politician is going to admit that they are atheist, even though the law of averages suggest that some are. Canada, by most measures, is far more secular than the US. But society seems to be as strong as ever. Admittedly, Christianity does not have the power over society that it once did, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Just ask our native citizens. I understand that you, as a devout Christian, might see any weakening of Christian influence on society as a bad thing, but that is an opinion that cannot be supported by evidence. Unless you have some that you would like to share.George Edwards
December 12, 2015
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GE, At last, something substantial. However, mutual understanding and stable agreement depend on enduring foundational moral governance principles which are exactly what evolutionary materialism kicks over. Hence Plato's comment about ruthless factionalism and its lawlessness; which is just what is going on as the long march of folly through the institutions continues apace. Further to this the sort of principled consensus you allude to, as the US DoI of 1776 understood in context shows, is rooted in the moral government of God. The ongoing radical secularisation and relativisation that we have been seeing are pointing to the breakdown of the delicate balances that undergird democratic self government by a free people. The likely outcome is a move towards breakdown and anarchic chaos, triggering a snap-back to autocracy or most likely a domineering manipulative elite, an oligarchy. Likely, concealed behind republican and/or democratic forms, a stunt that goes back all the way to Octavian's subtle coup that transformed the Roman Republic into Empire after a long period of factional instability culminating in a huge civil war. The sad fate of constitutional law under the US Supreme court over the past 100+ years is a clear example. In short, moral government through godly principles or breakdown as might and manipulation make 'right' or 'consensus' and even 'truth' take over. [And if you dare differ with the magisterium of the 97% or whatever, you will be locked out, belittled, denigrated and even punished.] A process that is already in progress. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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OK. Plato's quote, or at least the one you used in your argument, simply states might and manipulation makes right. There is absolutely no allowance for mutual understanding and agreement. That is neither might nor manipulation. Most modern societies function on the mutual understanding and agreement idea. With a modicum of might thrown in to keep everybody honest. There are, of course, governments who rule by the might makes right axiom (North Korea as an example). But they seldom last with the same structure more than a couple generations. So, in that context, your quote (might and manipulation makes right) is a complete misrepresentation (maybe unintentionally) of what we see as subjective morality.George Edwards
December 12, 2015
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MN, I remind you from the OP that the topic is a reply to the attempt to manipulate 12 yo school kids through a critical thinking assignment that tried to induce the view that belief in the reality of God is a culturally stamped, ill supported, commonplace notion; and its material context. Perhaps you need to refresh your memory by reading it. Riding a favourite rhetorical hobby horse on and on regardless is not going anywhere positive. KF PS: On the Smith Model for bio-cybernetic systems and relevance to the two tier controller (thus having context for agency interfacing with a cybernetic computational-cybernetic loop, perhaps through quantum level influences as Hameroff and Penrose suggested) kindly cf here: http://wayback.archive.org/web/20031224092559/http://www.smithsrisca.demon.co.uk/cybernetics.htmlkairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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GE, we await your cogent response on the merits, where I have provided a first level expansion on the point brought out by Plato already just above. Meanwhile your resort to arguing to the man rather than to fact-logic on substance is again duly noted. KF PS: I remind:
Nor do we tell truth by the clock (which is made to tell . . . time) — sound reformation generally works by calling us back to core, often self-evident principles and lessons of history that have been on record for a long time; likely first identified by the key circle of thinkers who pioneered the field of study and in phil matters refined across centuries. In such fields, if it is good it is likely to be old and successively refined, and if it is utterly novel it is highly likely to be error. Thus the importance of classic voices and works. Of course, again, it is fact-logic that grounds, No expert, witness or authority is better than his facts and logic and our emotions are no better than the underlying perceptions, expectations, treasures of the heart and evaluations that drive them.
kairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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Vy replied to a prompt, and appropriately. No further posts on that side track will be entertained.kairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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KF: "GE, consider yourself as under sole, final warning as at 135. KF" Fair enough. Can I then ask that Vy's comment be "snipped" and she be given a final warning. After all, my comment was simply a response to hers. KF: "GE, your standard argue to the man while studiously avoiding substance tactic continues." I have attempted to argue substance. You have quoted Plato about might and manipulation makes right. When I claimed that he was wrong and offered to explain, you continue to take it as a personal insult. You either want an actual discussion or you want to preach. Which is it?George Edwards
December 12, 2015
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