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The Reasonableness of God as World-root Being, the IS that grounds OUGHT and Cosmos-Architect

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The core challenge being addressed (as we respond to abuse of a critical thinking curriculum)  is the notion that belief in the reality of God is a culturally induced, poorly grounded commonplace notion. An easily dismissed cultural myth or prejudice, in short.

Let us remind ourselves of the curriculum content used by teachers in a district in Texas until protest led to removal of the focal question:

God_myth_sch_test

Fox26_God_myth_20pts

Having:

  • shown that such belief is deeply rooted in key, serious thought (also note vids 1: Kreeft, 2: Zacharias, 3: Craig, also 4: Stroebel on Jesus),
  • (exposing the flying spaghetti monster parody as strawman fallacy)
  • and noting (cf here in op and here as a comment)  how it underpins the moral fabric of governance for modern liberty and democracy by way of reference to the US DoI 1776 in context
  •  and having reminded one and all that lab coat clad evolutionary materialist scientism is self-referentially incoherent and so self-falsifying [as in, the shoe is on the other foot],

. . . we should now turn to the responsible reasonableness of ethical theism.

No, we are not here claiming certain proof of the reality of God that once dismissed can lead to an assumed atheistical default. Instead, ethical theism starts as a responsible worldview with substantial evidence and reasoning so that proper education will respect it as a serious option and will address the comparative difficulties challenge (cf. tip sheet) — factual adequacy, coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory adequacy — faced by all worldviews:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Just the opposite of the cynically dismissive one liner presented by the critical thinking curriculum, so called.

As a first point, we briefly reflect on modes of being and the significance of such for world-roots given functionally specific complex organisation, cosmological fine tuning and our patent staus as under moral governance as pointers.

First, an in-brief:

>>Our observed cosmos — the only actually, indisputably observed cosmos — is credibly contingent. That points beyond itself to adequate cause of a fine tuned cosmos set to a locally deeply isolated operating point for C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based terrestrial planet life. Life which BTW is based on coded information . . . language! right from the origin of cell based life . . . used in exquisitely intricate cybernetic systems that run the smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata with integral code using von Neumann kinematic self replicators we find in cells. That in the end through even multiverse speculations, points to necessary, intelligent, awesomely powerful being as source. Design by a creator beyond the cosmos. One intent on life like ours. Mix in moral government and we are at the inherent reasonableness of a creator capable of grounding ought. Just one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of our loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. No, we are not talking about poorly supported popular notions here, but of course, when the evolutionary materialist lab coat clad magisterium controls and censors what gets into the curricula they can make it seem that way.>>

Now, we can think of possible vs impossible beings (you, me, a unicorn vs a square circle). The latter cannot be in any possible world as the cluster of core requirements (a) squarishness and (b) circularity stand in mutual contradiction and cannot all be actualised in one and the same thing at once under the same circumstances.

The former, can exist in at least one possible world, whether or not they are actual in this world (the only generally observed actualised world).

Also, try to imagine a world in which the truth asserted in: 2 + 3 = 5 is false or was not so then came into being at some point or can cease to be so. No such world is possible, this proposition is a necessary though abstract being. That is, it is so anchored to the roots and framework for a world to be actualised that it will be so in any possible world:

|| + ||| –> |||||

(Where we can start with the set that collects nothing and compose the natural numbers etc, {} –>0, {0}–> 1, {0, 1} –> 2, etc.)

This allows us to understand that of possible beings some are contingent, some are necessary. Contingent beings will exist in some actualisable worlds but not in all such possible worlds. Necessary beings, by contrast are foundational to any actualisable world existing.

Contingent beings, then, depend on what I have termed external, on/off enabling causal factors (strictly, dynamically necessary causal factors), much like a fire depends for its beginning and sustained existence on heat, fuel, oxidiser and an un-interfered- with combustion chain reaction:

Fire_tetrahedronBy contrast, necessary beings do not have that sort of dynamical, causal dependence.

This has a major consequence, especially when we see that we live in a world that per the big bang and fine tuning considerations, is credibly contingent and in fact credibly finitely old, typically 13.7 or 13.8 BY being a conventional estimate:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

Typically the talk is of a singularity and perhaps a fluctuation. But the point is, finitely remote, changeable, composite, contingent. Caused, requiring a sufficient cluster of underlying dynamical antecedents/ factors that include at minimum all necessary factors.

But there is more.

For by contrast with being we can have non-being, a genuine nothing (and no a suggested quantum foam with fluctuations, etc, is not a genuine nothing, regardless of clever talking points).

vNSR
Illustrating a von Neumann, kinematic self replicator with integral universal computer

Non-being can have no causal capabilities, and so if there ever were a genuine nothing, such would forever obtain. That is, if a world now is (and a credibly contingent one) it points to something that always was, a necessary, independent, world-root being dynamically sufficient to account for the world that now is. A world with evident beginning at a finitely remote point, with evident fine tuning that sets its physics to a locally deeply isolated operating point that sets it up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium terrestrial planet, cell based life. Life, that is based on smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata that enfold an integral code using — language! communication and control systems! — von Neumann kinematic self replication facility. A class of machines we know how to conceptualise and initially analyse, but not at all how to design and implement. Worse, where we are conscious, intelligent, morally governed life forms in this cosmos that require a bridge between IS and OUGHT.

Already, we see that a very reasonable worldview stance would be that the cosmos comes from a necessary, highly intelligent, designing world root being who is a necessary being, and thus would be immaterial and intelligent, so minded. Even, through a multiverse speculation (which is spectacularly in violation of requisites of empirical substantiation and the multiplication of entities without clear necessity).

Moreover, as one scans the debates on worldviews foundations across the centuries, it is clear that there is just one credible place for there to be an IS that also grounds OUGHT in a reasonable way: the roots of reality.

There is just one serious candidate to be such a necessary being — flying spaghetti monsters et al (as we already saw) need not apply, they are patently contingent and are material — namely,

THE GOD OF ETHICAL THEISM: the inherently good and wise Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; one worthy of our loyalty and of the reasonable and responsible service of doing the good in accordance with our evident nature and circumstances.

That is, ethical theism is a reasonable, and intellectually viable worldview stance. It is also a descriptive term for the underlying worldview of the Judaeo-Christian Faith and theological tradition that is core to our civilisation and the foundation of that tradition, God. Where the God of Scripture says of himself c 1460 BC, I AM THAT I AM, i.e. necessary, eternal being, something not understood as to significance until many centuries later.

And in that context, it is the Christian tradition that this same God has come among us, as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who fulfills the prophecies in that scriptural tradition and now sends forth his apostles and disciples into the world who are to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves:

the_stone_of Daniels_vision

cornerstone-foundn_of_the_kingdomseven_mountains_fulness_vision

So, let us ponder Stroebel on Jesus:

[vimeo 17960119]

And, let us ponder Peter as he faced death by sentence of Kangaroo Court on a false accusation of treasonous arson against Rome, c 65 AD:

2 Peter 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . .

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In short, contrary to the false impression created by the authors of the curriculum in Texas, ethical theism in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is a reasonable faith and worldview stance, one to be treated with respect rather than their patent disdain.

And, of course, this post is open for responsible discussion. END

Comments
The atheist Sam Harris a few years ago advanced objective morality.
What that Atheopath did is promote the sub-Atheistic belief of scientism and delude himself into thinkin...er, randomizing that it has any basis in reality.Vy
December 12, 2015
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@108 We are not disrespecting you Mohammad, You are talking in a way which is hard to make sense of. Maybe you have an argument in your mind but you are struggling to articulate it.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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@Vy To call it gibberish is just another way that you reject subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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@jack jones, vy etc. It is a very simple conceptual scheme. In creationism there are 2 fundamental categories, creator and creation. 1 creator – what is in this category chooses, which is the mechanism of creation – spiritual domain – subjectivity: what is in this domain can only be found out by choosing if or not it is, by expression of emotion with free will, resulting in an opinion 2 creation – what is in this category is chosen, meaning that the entire universe is a contingency – material domain – objectivity: what is in this domain can only be found out by a way of evidence forcing to produce a 1 to 1 model of it, resulting in a fact. So you see that is how creationism can be taught by teaching about fact and opinion, as was the original issue of this topic.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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Are you sure you're not confusing freewill with subjectivity?
And your meaningless joking and lol and whatever is typical rubbish trying to deflect actual argument.
I don't remember joking, what I did do is LOL at your meaningless posturing. As for deflecting, it's pretty hard to discuss when you're trying to understand gibberish.Vy
December 12, 2015
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"The word faith is almost interchangeable with religion" Not sure what that has to do with anything we are discussing, It is false of course, You couldn't live your life without faith. You have faith when you drive that people coming from the opposite side are responsible and are not going to veer on to your side of the road. "How come I never see all these supposed religionists carrying their measuring devices into the mosque, measuring the objective morality?" I wouldn't look to Muslims for your guidance Mohammad. Now... You are saying because something cannot be measured physically then it does not exist objectively? But the claim something doesn't exist objectively because it hasn't been measured empirically has not been empirically measured. Your own claim fails your own criteria.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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@98 I don't understand what Mohammad is going on about either.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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@jack jones Is completely bogus. The word faith is almost interchangeable with religion, and faith is generally understood to be subjective. Remember Dawkins tirade against faith in general. How come I never see all these supposed religionists carrying their measuring devices into the mosque, measuring the objective morality? The atheist Sam Harris a few years ago advanced objective morality. When science is all you've got, then of course you are going to make morality objective.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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I already explained that. Atheists relate the word subjectivity to uniqueness. And atheists conceive of choosing in terms of sorting. As for example Daniel Dennet with his blunt essay "I could not have done otherwise, so what?" The spirit chooses, and the conclusion what the spirit is, is reached by choosing it. That is subjectivity, it is choosing about what the agency of a decision is. This procedure results in an opinion. That is how subjectivity is an inherently creationist concept. This is how it is equally logically valid to say the painting is beautiful, as it is to say the painting is ugly. In case of beauty then love is identified as agency, and in the case of ugly then hate is identified as agency. The existence of the love and hate is therefore a matter of opinion. Which means to say one can choose whehter or not it is real, and any conclusion chosen would be logically valid. Of course using choosing in the creationist sense of the term. Having alternative futures available, any of which can be made the present. Not using the word choosing in the atheists sense of sorting out variables, where the result is forced by the sorting criteria. And your meaningless joking and lol and whatever is typical rubbish trying to deflect actual argument.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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I have never seen anyone other than atheists push the contradictory idea of subjective morality.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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When you’ve had about 200+ examples of atheists rejecting subjectivity in conversing with them, then naturally I find my findings reliable.
Well...that's odd, considering the fact that it's accepted right here:
George: KF, the discussion about whether morality is objective or subjective has been had many times here and elsewhere, and I have not read anything to convince me that morality is anything but subjective.
So it's either you're wrong or your definition of subjective is something else entirely OR your explanation of your position is inadequate. The "200+ ... Atheists" part just makes LOL!Vy
December 12, 2015
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George Edwards: It is not self evident that when I mix red and yellow I get orange. Inferred was what I had in mind.mike1962
December 12, 2015
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When you've had about 200+ examples of atheists rejecting subjectivity in conversing with them, then naturally I find my findings reliable. If you had also focused on the issue of subjectivity, and talked to large numbers of atheists about that issue, then of course I would consider your findings more reliable. I do one issue, that issue is subjectivity. And this is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact issue. One can denote as fact the way atheists deal with subjectivity intellectually. It is bad form that you call that opinion, in a discussion about subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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I don't really understand the rest of your post.Vy
December 12, 2015
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Respectfully, you don’t know what you are talking about. I know because I’ve talked to a lot of atheists about this.
That's as valid as me saying you don't know what you're talking about. Why you elevate your opinion about what the Atheists you've spoken to believe as greater than mine is quite interesting.Vy
December 12, 2015
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Respectfully, you don't know what you are talking about. I know because I've talked to a lot of atheists about this. Atheists conceive of subjectivity as related to uniqueness, not related to choosing. For example a statement related to a unique position from which is viewed. So it means the statement is forced by the parameter of position, not chosen. This they will call subjectivity. And even if atheists use the word choosing, then they will conceive of choosing in terms of sorting, using the facts about what is good and evil as sorting criteria. So that is why atheists talk about good and evil being relative to the environment. The sortingcriteria change with the environment, but in every scenario good and evil are still held to be facts. No atheist acknowledges the existence of the human spirit on a subjective basis. Meaning to choose it exists, and choosing meaning to have several options available, any of which options would be valid when chosen. I have NEVER seen that. They regard love and hate as objectively measurable electrochemical processes in the brain. Atheists / materialists / naturalists etc. don't do subjectivity. Subjectivity is an inherently creationist concept. Atheists don't accept creationism.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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People who accept subjectivity is valid usually accept the existence of God.
You're the first theistic promoter of subjectivity I've met.Vy
December 12, 2015
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"does not make morality objective" Morality implies objectivity, If it is not objective then it is not morality. Morality contains objectivity within itself as it deals with objective should and should nots, So the term "objective morality" is tautologous. Just like when people say " safe haven" If a place is a haven then it is already safe, the term safe before haven is not necessary. Now.... saying somebody is acting morally or immorally and then arguing that people decide for themselves what is right and wrong is contradictory. You believe in subjective right and wrong vs Morality which already implies objectivity, objective morality is a tautology.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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People who accept subjectivity is valid usually accept the existence of God. So the choosing in general is conditioned by the choice to believe in God. So normally people would believe they have a soul, which soul chooses, and believe in God, and believe that God will judge their soul in the final judgement. And the judgement is a form of opinion. Of course there are still laws which laws can be objectively known. Both laws of society, and laws of God can be objectively known. But this does not make morality objective, because agency is not an objective issue. Any goodness or evil is in the agency of a decision.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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Nazism would not be nazism if it taught students to reach the conclusion about what is good and evil by choosing it with their heart.
And who or what exactly would determine whose conclusion about what is good and evil is right or wrong? How would that person or thing know that it/s/he's "hearted" conclusion is right or wrong? Did you forget Jer 17:9 - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?"?Vy
December 12, 2015
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@kairosfocus Your argument makes no sense. You profess objective morality, the nazi's profess objective morality. It is very obvious how objective morality sabotages conscience, as I have explained. The schoolbook for the Hitler Youth refers directly to Charles Darwin and natural selection. So it is all quite obvious that there is a straight line from evolution theory to nazism, and that line is rejection of subjectivity. Nazism would not be nazism if it taught students to reach the conclusion about what is good and evil by choosing it with their heart. By expression of emotion with free will, thus choosing. Thus mandating to take care to have a well ordered emotional life, to cultivate a tender judgement. That form of nazism would be more like, let's all get together nationally and take care of each other, and not the murderbent ideology that it was.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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"It was a very strange question" No, it was a perfectly reasonable question. You are in a muddle when it comes to morality so you cannot see it. "Is slavery objectively immoral, or subjectively immoral" Subjective morality is a contradiction in terms, when we say somebody has acted immorally then we are talking as if there is an objective standard, if there is no correct standard then why would you moralize about how others act? Telling somebody that they have acted incorrectly while advocating that there is no correct standard makes no logical sense whatsoever. That is indeed what you are arguing for. "subjective morals of the society" A contradiction in terms. Subjective denies a correct standard, Morality is about a correct standard, if there is no correct standard then it makes no sense to use the term Morality. You need to contrast Morality against subjective right and wrong for your position. "if it was a majority of people then the subjective morality of society would change." You are repeating the contradictory phrase again. "but if it was a majority of people then the subjective morality of society would change." You are using that contradictory phrase again. Morality does not change, people can change from immoral to moral behavior, there is no such thing as moral or immoral behavior on your position, just amoral behavior. "Which is what has happened throughout history." No, What has happened historically is that people can act morally and they can act immorally but on your evolutionary position where people would just be unintended meat robots who just act out according to physical laws then there is no morality and morality would just be an illusion. Yet on the other thread you were moralizing about people forcing their views on others as if you believe in objective right and wrong. Why are you so inconsistent.? Now...If morality does not exist which it does not on your position and right and wrong are just personal choices then you have no basis to say anyone needs to care about the good of others. If we are going to die and become nothing more than worm food which would be the case on your position and the universe is going to suffer a heat death then why would you expect others to care about what happens to society? If survival of the fittest is the case and there is no objective right and wrong then you really are not being consistent when you tell people what they should do on their short time on earth, ultimately it wouldn't really matter on your faith, Nihilism is perfectly consistent with your faith. PS: You need to stop talking about subjective morality and objective morality as Morality already implies an objective standard, You need to contrast morality with subjective right and wrong in your arguments.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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@George Edwards The declaration of independence of the USA roots morality in the pursuit of happiness. Happiness is not a measurable thing, that is how morality is made subjective. The creator made people in such a way that they cannot but choose. That is why the rights are inalienable. To make people slaves goes against the nature of people to choose. The human spirit chooses, and happiness is the goal of the choices. Happiness is a spiritual quality, so the choosing is by and for the spirit.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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MN, see how readily subjectivity shades off into subjectivism? And the HY handbook was focussing on the superficial with a boost from Haekel's faked up manipulative drawings that tried to rank races and apes. Which were commonly used in Germany. KF PS: Notice the moral fact I pointed to, a key example of self evident moral truth. Try to engage cogently on substance. Try to deny the knowability of the claim beyond subjective opinion and see where that ends real fast.kairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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OT Exodus 21:16
Whoever steals a man and sells him, and anyone found sin possession of him, shall be put to death.
NT Mark 12:31
The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these.
1 Timothy 1:8-11
Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the slaw is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
Vy
December 12, 2015
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GE, get a clue that when you try to flip off Plato with a one liner you are going up against one of the ten all time top minds in our civilisation, and BTW Aristotle his pupil is there with him, Ari's pupil? Alexander the Great. I suggest you would have been wiser to have actually read and responded to what he said, which was cited above. A glance at the life of Alcibiades and his damaging impact on Athens would then have given context. You are showing, with all due respect, sophomoric superficiality and repeated refusal to cogently address substance. KFkairosfocus
December 12, 2015
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JJ: "Very strange reasoning you have George." It was a very strange question. Let me ask you a question. Is slavery objectively immoral, or subjectively immoral? If objective morality comes from god, one would think that it would be mentioned somewhere in the bible. Even if it is only alongside those crimes punishable by death such as being homosexual, adultery, not being a virgin on your wedding night and dishonouring your parents. But not a peep. Yes, there are people who do not follow the subjective morals of the society, but if it was a majority of people then the subjective morality of society would change. Which is what has happened throughout history.George Edwards
December 12, 2015
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The schoolbook for the Hitleryouth starts out with a chapter titled "factual outlook on life". It then proceeds to denote the unlikeness of men to each other, denothing spiritual qualities of people as fact, denoting their worth as fact. Communism, or socalled scientific socialism, has the same focus on fact as nazism has. And that is ofcourse how conscience is sabotaged, by rejecting subjectivity, so emotions play no role, and what to do all becomes a matter of coldhearted calculation. The facts about good and evil act as sortingcriteria, sorting out what to do. Rejection of subjectivity is always accompanied with rejection of freedom. So that is why nazi's conceived of people as predestined by race, and communists conceived of people as predestined by evolutionary class struggle. Creationism sets forth other ideas, it validates subjectivity and objectivity into seperate domains of creator and creation. Kairosfocus has said good and evil is fact. He has made the existence of God a fact of logic. He has said beauty has an objective element, not explaining the subjective element. He has rejected science about how things are chosen. It is what it looks like, it is plainly rejection of subjectivity altogether, like all the millions of others who reject subjectivity. To attach the label creationist and faith to that position is to make the labels creationist and faith meaningless.mohammadnursyamsu
December 12, 2015
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Which only highlights your lack of understanding of evolution.
Or yours. Under evodelusion, morality is an illusion:
Morality then is not something handed down to Moses on Mount Sinai. It is something forged in the struggle for existence and reproduction, something fashioned by natural selection. It is as much a natural human adaptation as our ears or noses or teeth or penises or vaginas. It works and it has no meaning over and above this. . . . Morality is just a matter of emotions, like liking ice cream and sex and hating toothache and marking student papers. But it is, and has to be, a funny kind of emotion. It has to pretend that it is not that at all! If we thought that morality was no more than liking or not liking spinach, then pretty quickly it would break down. Before long, we would find ourselves saying something like: "Well, morality is a jolly good thing from a personal point of view. When I am hungry or sick, I can rely on my fellow humans to help me. But really it is all bullshit, so when they need help I can and should avoid putting myself out. There is nothing there for me." The trouble is that everyone would start saying this, and so very quickly there would be no morality and society would collapse and each and every one of us would suffer. . . . Now you know that morality is an illusion put in place by your genes to make you a social cooperator, what's to stop you behaving like an ancient Roman? Well, nothing in an objective sense. . . . Morality has no foundation. Long live morality. Thank goodness!
Vy
December 12, 2015
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"Sounds a lot like how humans have acted for all of recorded history. Where’s that much vaunted objective morality?" That is a strange objection, People can act immorally therefore you are saying that there is no "objective morality" If people act immorally then it just means they have strayed from the moral path. People can give the wrong answer to equations, that does not mean there are no correct answers. Very strange reasoning you have George.Jack Jones
December 12, 2015
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