Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

The Reasonableness of God as World-root Being, the IS that grounds OUGHT and Cosmos-Architect

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The core challenge being addressed (as we respond to abuse of a critical thinking curriculum)  is the notion that belief in the reality of God is a culturally induced, poorly grounded commonplace notion. An easily dismissed cultural myth or prejudice, in short.

Let us remind ourselves of the curriculum content used by teachers in a district in Texas until protest led to removal of the focal question:

God_myth_sch_test

Fox26_God_myth_20pts

Having:

  • shown that such belief is deeply rooted in key, serious thought (also note vids 1: Kreeft, 2: Zacharias, 3: Craig, also 4: Stroebel on Jesus),
  • (exposing the flying spaghetti monster parody as strawman fallacy)
  • and noting (cf here in op and here as a comment)  how it underpins the moral fabric of governance for modern liberty and democracy by way of reference to the US DoI 1776 in context
  •  and having reminded one and all that lab coat clad evolutionary materialist scientism is self-referentially incoherent and so self-falsifying [as in, the shoe is on the other foot],

. . . we should now turn to the responsible reasonableness of ethical theism.

No, we are not here claiming certain proof of the reality of God that once dismissed can lead to an assumed atheistical default. Instead, ethical theism starts as a responsible worldview with substantial evidence and reasoning so that proper education will respect it as a serious option and will address the comparative difficulties challenge (cf. tip sheet) — factual adequacy, coherence (logical and dynamical) and explanatory adequacy — faced by all worldviews:

A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}
A summary of why we end up with foundations for our worldviews, whether or not we would phrase the matter that way}

Just the opposite of the cynically dismissive one liner presented by the critical thinking curriculum, so called.

As a first point, we briefly reflect on modes of being and the significance of such for world-roots given functionally specific complex organisation, cosmological fine tuning and our patent staus as under moral governance as pointers.

First, an in-brief:

>>Our observed cosmos — the only actually, indisputably observed cosmos — is credibly contingent. That points beyond itself to adequate cause of a fine tuned cosmos set to a locally deeply isolated operating point for C-Chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based terrestrial planet life. Life which BTW is based on coded information . . . language! right from the origin of cell based life . . . used in exquisitely intricate cybernetic systems that run the smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata with integral code using von Neumann kinematic self replicators we find in cells. That in the end through even multiverse speculations, points to necessary, intelligent, awesomely powerful being as source. Design by a creator beyond the cosmos. One intent on life like ours. Mix in moral government and we are at the inherent reasonableness of a creator capable of grounding ought. Just one serious candidate, the inherently good Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being, worthy of our loyalty and the reasonable service of doing the good in accord with our evident nature. No, we are not talking about poorly supported popular notions here, but of course, when the evolutionary materialist lab coat clad magisterium controls and censors what gets into the curricula they can make it seem that way.>>

Now, we can think of possible vs impossible beings (you, me, a unicorn vs a square circle). The latter cannot be in any possible world as the cluster of core requirements (a) squarishness and (b) circularity stand in mutual contradiction and cannot all be actualised in one and the same thing at once under the same circumstances.

The former, can exist in at least one possible world, whether or not they are actual in this world (the only generally observed actualised world).

Also, try to imagine a world in which the truth asserted in: 2 + 3 = 5 is false or was not so then came into being at some point or can cease to be so. No such world is possible, this proposition is a necessary though abstract being. That is, it is so anchored to the roots and framework for a world to be actualised that it will be so in any possible world:

|| + ||| –> |||||

(Where we can start with the set that collects nothing and compose the natural numbers etc, {} –>0, {0}–> 1, {0, 1} –> 2, etc.)

This allows us to understand that of possible beings some are contingent, some are necessary. Contingent beings will exist in some actualisable worlds but not in all such possible worlds. Necessary beings, by contrast are foundational to any actualisable world existing.

Contingent beings, then, depend on what I have termed external, on/off enabling causal factors (strictly, dynamically necessary causal factors), much like a fire depends for its beginning and sustained existence on heat, fuel, oxidiser and an un-interfered- with combustion chain reaction:

Fire_tetrahedronBy contrast, necessary beings do not have that sort of dynamical, causal dependence.

This has a major consequence, especially when we see that we live in a world that per the big bang and fine tuning considerations, is credibly contingent and in fact credibly finitely old, typically 13.7 or 13.8 BY being a conventional estimate:

The Big Bang timeline -- a world with a beginning
The Big Bang timeline — a world with a beginning

Typically the talk is of a singularity and perhaps a fluctuation. But the point is, finitely remote, changeable, composite, contingent. Caused, requiring a sufficient cluster of underlying dynamical antecedents/ factors that include at minimum all necessary factors.

But there is more.

For by contrast with being we can have non-being, a genuine nothing (and no a suggested quantum foam with fluctuations, etc, is not a genuine nothing, regardless of clever talking points).

vNSR
Illustrating a von Neumann, kinematic self replicator with integral universal computer

Non-being can have no causal capabilities, and so if there ever were a genuine nothing, such would forever obtain. That is, if a world now is (and a credibly contingent one) it points to something that always was, a necessary, independent, world-root being dynamically sufficient to account for the world that now is. A world with evident beginning at a finitely remote point, with evident fine tuning that sets its physics to a locally deeply isolated operating point that sets it up for C-chemistry, aqueous medium terrestrial planet, cell based life. Life, that is based on smart gated, encapsulated metabolic automata that enfold an integral code using — language! communication and control systems! — von Neumann kinematic self replication facility. A class of machines we know how to conceptualise and initially analyse, but not at all how to design and implement. Worse, where we are conscious, intelligent, morally governed life forms in this cosmos that require a bridge between IS and OUGHT.

Already, we see that a very reasonable worldview stance would be that the cosmos comes from a necessary, highly intelligent, designing world root being who is a necessary being, and thus would be immaterial and intelligent, so minded. Even, through a multiverse speculation (which is spectacularly in violation of requisites of empirical substantiation and the multiplication of entities without clear necessity).

Moreover, as one scans the debates on worldviews foundations across the centuries, it is clear that there is just one credible place for there to be an IS that also grounds OUGHT in a reasonable way: the roots of reality.

There is just one serious candidate to be such a necessary being — flying spaghetti monsters et al (as we already saw) need not apply, they are patently contingent and are material — namely,

THE GOD OF ETHICAL THEISM: the inherently good and wise Creator God, a necessary and maximally great being; one worthy of our loyalty and of the reasonable and responsible service of doing the good in accordance with our evident nature and circumstances.

That is, ethical theism is a reasonable, and intellectually viable worldview stance. It is also a descriptive term for the underlying worldview of the Judaeo-Christian Faith and theological tradition that is core to our civilisation and the foundation of that tradition, God. Where the God of Scripture says of himself c 1460 BC, I AM THAT I AM, i.e. necessary, eternal being, something not understood as to significance until many centuries later.

And in that context, it is the Christian tradition that this same God has come among us, as Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ who fulfills the prophecies in that scriptural tradition and now sends forth his apostles and disciples into the world who are to be as wise as serpents but harmless as doves:

the_stone_of Daniels_vision

cornerstone-foundn_of_the_kingdomseven_mountains_fulness_vision

So, let us ponder Stroebel on Jesus:

[vimeo 17960119]

And, let us ponder Peter as he faced death by sentence of Kangaroo Court on a false accusation of treasonous arson against Rome, c 65 AD:

2 Peter 1:13 I think it right, as long as I am in this body,[h] to stir you up by way of reminder, 14 since I know that the putting off of my body will be soon, as our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me. 15 And I will make every effort so that after my departure you may be able at any time to recall these things.

16 For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty . . . .

19 And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, 20 knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. 21 For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

In short, contrary to the false impression created by the authors of the curriculum in Texas, ethical theism in the Judaeo-Christian tradition is a reasonable faith and worldview stance, one to be treated with respect rather than their patent disdain.

And, of course, this post is open for responsible discussion. END

Comments
PPPS: Johnson replied:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence.
[--> notice, the power of an undisclosed, question-begging, controlling assumption . . . often put up as if it were a mere reasonable methodological constraint; emphasis added. Let us note how Rational Wiki, so-called, presents it:
"Methodological naturalism is the label for the required assumption of philosophical naturalism when working with the scientific method. Methodological naturalists limit their scientific research to the study of natural causes, because any attempts to define causal relationships with the supernatural are never fruitful, and result in the creation of scientific "dead ends" and God of the gaps-type hypotheses."
Of course, this ideological imposition on science that subverts it from freely seeking the empirically, observationally anchored truth about our world pivots on the deception of side-stepping the obvious fact since Plato in The Laws Bk X, that there is a second, readily empirically testable and observable alternative to "natural vs [the suspect] supernatural." Namely, blind chance and/or mechanical necessity [= the natural] vs the ART-ificial, the latter acting by evident intelligently directed configuration. [Cf Plantinga's reply here and here.] And as for the god of the gaps canard, the issue is, inference to best explanation across competing live option candidates. If chance and necessity is a candidate, so is intelligence acting by art through design. And if the latter is twisted into a caricature god of the gaps strawman, then locked out, huge questions are being oh so conveniently begged.]
That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [Emphasis added.] [The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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PPS: Observe, Lewontin letting the cat out of the bag:
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads [==> as in, "we" have cornered the market on truth, warrant and knowledge] we must first get an incorrect view out [--> as in, if you disagree with "us" of the secularist elite you are wrong, irrational and so dangerous you must be stopped, even at the price of manipulative indoctrination of hoi polloi] . . . the problem is to get them [= hoi polloi] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations,
[ --> as in, to think in terms of ethical theism is to be delusional, justifying "our" elitist and establishment-controlling interventions of power to "fix" the widespread mental disease]
and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth
[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]
. . . . To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists [--> "we" are the dominant elites], it is self-evident
[--> actually, science and its knowledge claims are plainly not immediately and necessarily true on pain of absurdity, to one who understands them; this is another logical error, begging the question , confused for real self-evidence; whereby a claim shows itself not just true but true on pain of patent absurdity if one tries to deny it . . . and in fact it is evolutionary materialism that is readily shown to be self-refuting]
that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality [--> = all of reality to the evolutionary materialist], and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test [--> i.e. an assertion that tellingly reveals a hostile mindset, not a warranted claim] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us [= the evo-mat establishment] to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door . . . [--> irreconcilable hostility to ethical theism, already caricatured as believing delusionally in imaginary demons]. [Lewontin, Billions and billions of Demons, NYRB Jan 1997,cf. here. And, if you imagine this is "quote-mined" I invite you to read the fuller annotated citation here.]
See what is going on?kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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MN, The reason I cited wiki is to note an admission against interest. The force of the matter is so strong they admit that or face being patently ludicrous. You still are not registering that in the name of critical thinking they are forcing kids to think: fact, opinion, culturally induced poorly supported commonplace notion, falsehood etc. And so, common sense, tradition, intuition etc are being systematically and deliberately undermined by being deemed a folk notion, a myth, an ethnocentric prejudice etc. Jordan Wooley, who challenged the assignment of God's reality to the myth category, a 12 year old, was then confronted by teacher to substantiate. Of course, now being denied and the official investigation says nope. But the local news was able to find other families supporting the accuracy of her complaint. My more direct concern is that we can substantiate what was in the curriculum, and it is highly plausible that the assignment that "myth" is correct according to the curriculum is plausible. (Indeed, that is why there was a challenge.) In this series, I have been showing that the reality of God is a serious and substantial view that ought to be respected, not a mere ill supported prejudice. One small part of that is to show that evolutionary materialist scientism is self refuting, on the precise issue of responsible rational freedom, as a first necessity of being able to reason, warrant and know. In the course of which freedom to reason, weigh, value, assess moral obligation and decide then act are involved. Trying to appeal to common sense as a 12 year old or as a parent or the like, is not going to work very well in that context. Common sense is itself under attack. Oh the power of the lab coat clad magisterium! " Science sez . . ." Actually, science [--> evolutionary materialist scientism dressed up in a lab coat] sez . . . And, it is necessary to show that responsible rational freedom is a condition of reasoning, then that evolutionary materialist scientism, because of the only forces and factors it allows, cannot ground it, in fact ends up using reasoning to undermine reasoning ending in incoherence. Show from in common starting points. KF PS: You cannot assume "creation" at outset in this context.kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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wiki is a socialist / atheist, or whatever, encyclopedia. The traditional and common understanding of choosing is same as the creationist understanding. It is making a possibility which is in the future, the present or not. Or also defined as making one of alternative futures the present. That is the definition of choosing which accomodates subjectivity, as is the common and traditional understanding of choosing. I read what you said about freedom, but you also said that nobody has a working empirical model of choosing. So it is kind of empty words when you say you support freedom, agency etc. because you don't have any logic tied in place with that. For example Daniel Dennett uses the word choosing with the logic that he could not have done otherwise. So you see, you have to tie down exactly what the concept of choosing is, the mechanism of creation, otherwise the "atheists" will corrupt it.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN: It is choice itself which is being obfuscated and clouded though illegitimate injection of lab coat clad evolutionary materialism. So, the issue is to expose the agenda and its question-begging censoring illegitimacy, both moral and intellectual. That takes us to worldviews level, and so there is a need to understand being, as being comes before mind and agency. Yes, we may have a vague common sense notion walking in the door, but the mystique of the lab coat and the magisterium is being used to subvert education to say that the intuition is a culturally induced, ill grounded commonplace notion. And if you dare mention the Bible, that is theocratic right wing bigotry and imposition of Christofascist tyranny. The worldview issue has to be put on the table and dealt with in a context of exposing the illigetimate imposition. KF PS: You really need to read my previous post in this series on evo mat scientism, you clearly have missed what I have to say about responsible, rational agency and its importance to reasoning, warranting and knowing there and elsewhere. Our self-aware conscious, contemplative experience is our first fact and what we know most directly. Any scheme that would make such out to be delusional or inherently non rational is in big trouble. Which is the problem of evo mat scientism. At the same time, per science there is no generally accepted empirically grounded model of consciousness and rational, responsible freedom. Smuggled in evo mat priors are used to artificially lock out what does not comport with that view. So the view has to be broken at self referential incoherence level before its captives can be set free from its censorship. Logic cannot be banned in the classroom.kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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PS: Note Wiki on choice:
Choice involves mentally making a decision: judging the merits of multiple options and selecting one or more of them. One can make a choice between imagined options ("what would I do if ...?") or between real options followed by the corresponding action. For example, a traveller might choose a route for a journey based on the preference of arriving at a given destination as soon as possible. The preferred (and therefore chosen) route can then follow from information such as the length of each of the possible routes, traffic conditions, etc. If the arrival at a choice includes more complex motivators, cognition, instinct and feeling can become more intertwined. Simple choices might include what to eat for dinner or what to wear on a Saturday morning - choices that have relatively low-impact on the chooser's life overall. More complex choices might involve (for example) what candidate to vote for in an election, what profession to pursue, a life partner, etc. - choices based on multiple influences and having larger ramifications. Most people[quantify] regard having choices as a good thing, though a severely limited or artificially restricted choice can lead to discomfort with choosing, and possibly an unsatisfactory outcome. In contrast, a choice with excessively numerous options may lead to confusion, regret of the alternatives not taken, and indifference in an unstructured existence;[1] and the illusion that choosing an object or a course leads necessarily to control of that object or course can cause psychological problems.
kairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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Again, it's not the case that people don't understand choosing, otherwise they would not be able to talk in terms of making choices. People know, so it means we can teach students what they already know, teach the logic of how choosing works in common discourse, which is basically a scientific hypothesis of how things work. Bring their common knowledge about how choosing works to a more formal level of awareness. And part of teaching about how choosing works, would be to teach that the question what the agency of a decision is, is a matter of opinion, thus validating subjectivity. And when subjectivity is validated, then atheists will forever be stuck at this course in school. No atheist will ever pass the test of accurately describing how subjectivity works. That's important, what you say is not important.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN, Pardon, it is not just Creationism vs evolution. The core challenge contemplated here is prior, worldview foundations and particularly the reasonableness of ethical theism. (Which has to address all comers, BTW.) Notice, the agenda in the curriculum imposed on 12 year olds in the school district in Texas, was to create the idea that the "correct" answer in critical thinking is that God is a culturally induced, ill founded commonplace notion. In effect a myth. Under false colours of education. Failing to do due worldviews grounding diligence and comparative difficulties analysis on live options. A foundation has to be laid, including on our understanding of being; even before that, we need to understand worldviews. Cf here on -- part of a draft demo course on sys theol, BTW. When it comes to responsible rational freedom, the notion of mechanism is actually likely to be antithetical. Mechanisms interact by causal chains of force, including in computational machines. Chance is equally non-rational, and the combination of the two make utterly no progress in the right direction. Cf the previous discussion on evolutionary materialism as is linked in the OP as part of "Having . . ." We have to start elsewhere. One step is to point out the two-tier controller Smith model, as appears in the just linked in outline. Namely that an in the loop i/o controller can be supervised by a higher order controller. For bio-cybernetic things, the brain-body loop is such that it has been suggested -- note my term -- that quantum level influences on neurons in appropriate regions would be a possible mechanism; i.e. information flows and influences not brute mechanical forces triggering blind chains of cause-effect bonds. (Cf here on.) But the fundamental point is a logical one, something that seems to be very hard for this generation to grasp. Let me start with JBS Haldane:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” [["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
Mind cannot be reduced to electrochemistry and neuron network architecture. And, building on C S Lewis picking up from Haldane, Reppert hits hard on the notion of reducing reasoning to computation:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
Suitably organised brain as neural network computer works as an in the loop controller but that cannot account for responsibly free rational, self-aware contemplation, choice and action. We have to again open ourselves to rational, responsible mind that transcends matter. On pain of self-referential incoherence almost as spectacular as Crick in his The Astonishing Hypothesis, 1994:
. . . that "You", your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behaviour of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules. As Lewis Carroll's Alice might have phrased: "You're nothing but a pack of neurons." This hypothesis is so alien to the ideas of most people today that it can truly be called astonishing.
To which we say: including you, Sir Francis, when you wrote this and when you did your Nobel Prize winning work? Being comes first. But before this, it needs to be put on the table that evolutionary materialist scientism is a fail, right in the starting gates. Which I did and linked. (Remember, if I write a mini novella length post, there are many who would be all too eager to dismiss on just length.) Trying to redefine choice to fit a dead horse worldview is patently futile. And the point is that if we do not have responsible, rational freedom, we cannot reason so the very exercise of arguing and seeking to warrant collapses. And that is one reason why I speak in these terms not "choice." Similarly, I have taken time to show why reducing reason to computation fails. And Z et al have seen all of that before -- year after year, they are locked into flogging a dead horse. The issue is the reasonable person, and eventually when a critical mass recognises that evo mat is a dead horse, such will finally walk away. They are not acting reasonably but rhetorically and politically, looking for talking points that make an agenda go through. It is that agenda that has to be broken. And exposing how it was snuck into a curriculum and how ethical theism is in fact a serious worldview from ground up, are part of that long term response. And that includes understanding being and non being at worldview level. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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The whole point of creationism vs evolution is for people to accept subjectivity is valid. So when you say you don't have an empirically validated model of choice, it means atheists, materialists, and a whole lot of religious besides, are going to crappify the definition of choosing, so as to undermine subjectivity. The atheists, like Zachriel, are going to use and promote a definition for choosing which uses a logic of sorting, because that definition leaves no room for subjectivity. Then you have already lost the boat. There is an empirical working model of how choosing works, which is the logic we use in common discourse in regards to talking about choosing things. That model is the basis for creationism.mohammadnursyamsu
December 7, 2015
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MN: I have argued that we are familiar with being responsibly and rationally free and have shown in outline how attempts to deny this are self-undermining. In short, it is self referentially absurd to directly deny or deny by implication, that we are significantly responsibly free and rational. Not least, the very process of reasoned discussion and argument would become pointless. We do not have any serious empirically validated models of choice and of linked responsible rational freedom, much less of claimed emergence. However, we are familiar with the possibility and actuality of designers and designs, also marks of design in things. It is from such we may reason. Next, the issue of a necessary being root of reality is NOT tied to agency. It is a simple, worldview level analysis of modes of being/non-being linked to contingency and cause. That non-being has no causal powers implies that if ever there were an utter nothing, such would forever obtain. Something is, so something always was, and at root independent of other beings and tied to a world existing at all. This opens up a concept that is largely unfamiliar but important in reasoning correctly: necessary being. Being, necessarily connected to the existence of a world, thus involved in its roots and framework. The issue then is candidates. Formerly, the cosmos as a whole in some form was favoured by those who did not take God seriously, but the steady state cosmos notion collapsed in favour of the formerly suspect big bang approach. A cosmos with a beginning, begging for adequate begin-ner. It is on onward issues that Mind comes in, also person and Moral Governor. KFkairosfocus
December 7, 2015
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We kind of do already know how choosing and subjectivity work, in common discourse. That is something everybody understands, while qm is an example of what basically nobody understands. You are not really validating freedom. You says that you support it, but when push comes to shove you say that nobody really knows how choosing works, so it is weak, and the requirement for a necessary being convolutes the concept of agency.mohammadnursyamsu
December 6, 2015
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PS: I should add from Jn 3:
Jn 3:19 This is the judgment [that is, the cause for indictment, the test by which people are judged, the basis for the sentence]: the Light has come into the world, and people loved the [c]darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For every wrongdoer hates the Light, and does not come to the Light [but shrinks from it] for fear that his [sinful, worthless] activities will be exposed and condemned. 21 But whoever practices truth [and does what is right—morally, ethically, spiritually] comes to the Light, so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—accomplished in God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence on Him].” [AMP]
kairosfocus
December 6, 2015
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MN, I actually wrote in the context of the OP's concerns which -- witness prayer and condolences shaming (yes, it is that bad now) -- are all too topical as issues. In terms of subjectivity and choosing etc, my thought is, it is more important for us to understand implications of our utter dependence on being able to freely choose and reason responsibly, if we are to have knowledge and reason. Indeed, as the OP links, it is by undermining responsible, rational freedom that evolutionary materialist scientism undermines itself and self-falsifies. For design inferences to work, what is crucially necessary is that we recognise THAT design exists and that designers exist so design is a possible being and designers are possible beings. Likewise, we need to have some understanding of cause, of necessary enabling factors and the need for adequate cause. All of this is abundantly empirically substantiated. Then, we focus on design, as process and as artifact from process. Design uses purpose, and insight to intelligently direct configurations to fulfill targetted function. As a result, with sufficiently complex entities, we see functionally specific complex organisation and associated information, FSCO/I, beyond 500 - 1,000 bits. At such a threshold it becomes maximally implausible for blind chance and/or mechanical necessity to directly search the space of possible configs on available atomic and time resources. Likewise, search for a golden search is coming out of the power set of the original space of possibilities, which makes the haystack exponentially harder. 500 bits is 3.27*10^150 possibilities and as searches are subsets of a set, the power set space to find a golden search is of order 2^(3.27*10^150) So, FSCO/I -- as is inductively warranted -- is an empirically reliable sign of design as key causal process. You will note, there is no speculation as to designers, their nature, how they come to be, their subjective inner life, how choice is made and effected bodily, etc etc etc. No one really knows that. But, we can readily show that just to have a credible intellectual life in which we can reason, warrant and know, we must be responsibly and rationally free. Thus, such is integral to design. So, we let the chips of that first premise to be responsibly rational and effective as thinkers, knowers and designers lie where they fly. Evolutionary Materialist scientism, never mind the lab coat clad magisterium, fails this test. It self-falsifies. We then look at cases where FSCO/I is relevant. Language and computer programs. Communication and Control systems. Manufacturing automatons. Highly complex integrated chemical manufacturing process-flow networks, the von Neumann kinematic self replicator. Fine tuning of complex systems that sets them to locally deeply isolated operating points. So, at this point, we see that the technological world provides trillions of cases in point that underscore the power of FSCO/I. Then, we have learned that cell based life is like that, only with much more sophisticated versions of what we have discovered. Then, we begin to realise that the observed cosmos is fine tuned in its physics in many ways that set the stage for C-chemistry, aqueous medium, terrestrial planet cell based life. And we learn, increasingly, that our solar system is evidently a rare and privileged zone in the cosmos. All of these, long before one wonders about inner workings, point to design. Of life, of the cosmos behind life, of main body plans. Including our own. That is already enough for a drastic paradigm shift in science. Which is what is being fought out now. Where, we do not need to explore the causes and operations of responsible rational designing intelligent freedom. Just, we need to recognise its possibility. Going back, the purpose of this thread is to address a worldviews foundation challenge in the wider context of understanding our world and what is at stake in the widespread secular humanist evolutionary materialist scientism rooted atheistical indoctrination we find in our schools. Even, targetting 12 year olds. This is not about the design inference, as the list of categories will show. Going beyond, we must follow Newton: I feign no [speculative] hypotheses, in scientific work. Question begging controlling assumptions need to be challenged, such as evolutionary materialist scientism. So, no, to make a scientific design inference, it is NOT necessary to understand how designers choose, just we need to recognise such are possible, commonly act by intelligently directed configuration and thus frequently leave empirically reliable traces. Such as FSCO/I. And, we have every good reason to first seek facts of observation and experience on the fact of design. Models and theories explain credible facts. Science seeks to describe, explain, predict, influence. No, necessary being is not a fact placed instead of agency. It is seen that our cosmos traces to a root of reality that must be necessary, i.e. no world is possible unless such a root is there. Then, it was drawn out that the cosmos is fine tuned and has FSCO/I rich, cell based life in it set up through such fine tuning. Of such life we find ourselves as intelligent, designing, rational, morally governed and significantly responsibly free. We now see that design and intelligence, purpose and moral grounding are on the table. Where, it is easy to see that there is only one place where moral government can enter the cosmos: its root. We seek a necessary being IS grounding both the evidently designed cosmos and world of life and a class of beings governed by OUGHT. That brings to the table, before we get to religious traditions etc, that the world without and heart, mind and conscience within all join with one voice to point to ethical theism. In which we see not only an abstract necessary being, but a designing mind and moral governor. Thus person. Such frames a bill of particulars that is best filled by the inherently good creator God, a necessary and maximally great being and moral governor, worthy of loyalty and the reasonable service of responsibly doing the good and the right in accord with our evident nature. This is the God of the philosophers, yes, the God of generic ethical theism. But already, he is someone worthy of loyalty, prayer, penitence and service by persistence in the path of the good. I have already cited from Rom 1. Let me now clip from Rom 2, to bridge further to the Judaeo-Christian tradition and scripture:
Rom 2:1 Therefore you have no excuse or justification, everyone of you who [hypocritically] [a]judges and condemns others; for in passing judgment on another person, you condemn yourself, because you who judge [from a position of arrogance or self-righteousness] are habitually practicing the very same things [which you denounce]. 2 And we know that the judgment of God falls justly and in accordance with truth on those who practice such things . . . . 5 But because of your callous stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are [deliberately] storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will pay back to each person according to his deeds [justly, as his deeds deserve]: 7 to those who by persistence in doing good seek [unseen but certain heavenly] glory, honor, and immortality, [He will give the gift of] eternal life. 8 But for those who are selfishly ambitious and self-seeking and disobedient to the truth but responsive to wickedness, [there will be] wrath and indignation . . . . 14 When Gentiles, who do not have the Law [since it was given only to Jews], do [c]instinctively the things the Law requires [guided only by their conscience], they are a law to themselves, though they do not have the Law. 15 They show that the [d]essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts; and their conscience [their sense of right and wrong, their moral choices] bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or perhaps defending them 16 on that day when, [e]as my gospel proclaims, God will judge the secrets [all the hidden thoughts and concealed sins] of men through Christ Jesus. [AMP]
Similarly, Eph 4, in the context of the church breaking in as witness to the clearer, demonstrated incarnate truth of God manifest in Christ:
Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had previously descended [from the heights of heaven] into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is the very same as He who also has ascended high above all the heavens, that He [His presence] might fill all things [that is, the whole universe]). [--> echoes of Dan 2!] 11 And [His gifts to the church were varied and] He Himself appointed some as apostles [special messengers, representatives], some as prophets [who speak a new message from God to the people], some as evangelists [who spread the good news of salvation], and some as pastors and teachers [to shepherd and guide and instruct], 12 [and He did this] to fully equip and perfect the saints (God’s people) for works of service, to build up the body of Christ [the church]; 13 until we all reach oneness in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God, [growing spiritually] to become a mature believer, reaching to the measure of the fullness of Christ [manifesting His spiritual completeness and exercising our spiritual gifts in unity]. 14 So that we are no longer children [spiritually immature], tossed back and forth [like ships on a stormy sea] and carried about by every wind of [shifting] doctrine, by the cunning and trickery of [unscrupulous] men, by the deceitful scheming of people ready to do anything [for personal profit]. [--> sounds familiar?] 15 But speaking the truth in love [in all things—both our speech and our lives expressing His truth], let us grow up in all things into Him [following His example] who is the Head—Christ . . . . 17 So this I say, and solemnly affirm together with the Lord [as in His presence], that you must no longer live as the [unbelieving] Gentiles live, in the futility of their minds [and in the foolishness and emptiness of their souls], 18 for their [moral] understanding is darkened and their reasoning is clouded; [they are] alienated and self-banished from the life of God [with no share in it; this is] because of the [willful] ignorance and spiritual blindness that is [deep-seated] within them, because of the hardness and insensitivity of their heart. [--> sounds familiar?] 19 And they, [the ungodly in their spiritual apathy], having become callous and unfeeling, have given themselves over [as prey] to unbridled sensuality, eagerly craving the practice of every kind of impurity [that their desires may demand]. [--> remind you of a civilisation all around us?] 20 But you did not learn Christ in this way! 21 If in fact you have [really] heard Him and have been taught by Him, just as truth is in Jesus [revealed in His life and personified in Him], 22 that, regarding your previous way of life, you put off your old self [completely discard your former nature], which is being corrupted through deceitful desires, 23 and be continually renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh, untarnished mental and spiritual attitude], 24 and put on the new self [the regenerated and renewed nature], created in God’s image, [godlike] in the righteousness and holiness of the truth [living in a way that expresses to God your gratitude for your salvation]. 25 Therefore, rejecting all falsehood [whether lying, defrauding, telling half-truths, spreading rumors, any such as these], speak truth each one with his neighbor, for we are all parts of one another [and we are all parts of the body of Christ]. 26 Be angry [at sin—at immorality, at injustice, at ungodly behavior], yet do not sin; do not let your anger [cause you shame, nor allow it to] last until the sun goes down. 27 And do not give the devil an opportunity [to lead you into sin by holding a grudge, or nurturing anger, or harboring resentment, or cultivating bitterness]. 28 The thief [who has become a believer] must no longer steal, but instead he must work hard [making an honest living], producing that which is good with his own hands, so that he will have something to share with those in need. 29 Do not let unwholesome [foul, profane, worthless, vulgar] words ever come out of your mouth, but only such speech as is good for building up others, according to the need and the occasion, so that it will be a blessing to those who hear [you speak]. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God [but seek to please Him], by whom you were sealed and marked [branded as God’s own] for the day of redemption [the final deliverance from the consequences of sin]. 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor [perpetual animosity, resentment, strife, fault-finding] and slander be put away from you, along with every kind of malice [all spitefulness, verbal abuse, malevolence]. 32 Be kind and helpful to one another, tender-hearted [compassionate, understanding], forgiving one another [readily and freely], just as God in Christ also forgave [c]you. [AMP]
In short, the inner and outer realities of our existence point decisively, so that we are without excuse. And, those who seek, groping and stumbling but persisting, God will welcome. Where, a major test is our responsiveness or unresponsiveness to the truth we know or should acknowledge. Where also, turning from truth and right darkens both the intellectual and the moral, so the church is inherently a reforming, transforming influence in culture. (Note, seven mountains and the fulness theme.) If it is faithful to its Risen Lord. KFkairosfocus
December 6, 2015
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@kairosfocus I presented 2 concerns in regards to the necessary being idea. Validation of ordinary subjectivity, and intelligent design science. You write nothing to address those concerns. To do intelligent design science it is obviously required to have knowledge about how things are chosen, because choosing is the mechanism of creation. The concept of choosing does not function when agency is regarded as a factual issue. That means intelligent design science, and subjectivity, is out the window, if you so define agency as a factual issue. And it seems to me that you place necessary being as fact, in place of agency. It might be possible to argue for God as a necessary being. OK, but doing that you have done nothing yet to validate either subjectivity or intelligent design science, which both operate by choosing. You probably forget that in principle intelligent design science also has to explain how Mozart created his music. That is to say that intelligent design must apply generally.mohammadnursyamsu
December 5, 2015
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MN, First, the logic of reality in the face of the consequences of an utter nothing ever having obtained [=> nothing forever after] requires that something always was. Something at the root of reality not dependent on any other being, a necessary being. That is basic philosophy, but with profound worldview implications. Not least, as matter in aggregate is inherently contingent and composite and the material cosmos we observe is credibly finitely old, we are looking at the observed material cosmos not being a credible candidate for the root of reality. A multiverse is a speculation and is problematic, but it is the main half viable materialistic alternative. (And in a world with moral government and responsible rational freedom, it runs into the next brick wall head on.) Necessary beings are going to be mind or abstractions . . . which arguably reside in minds. And abstractions such as the number 2 do not have dynamical, causal capacity. It is a partial result but an important baseline, one that in fact allows us to understand a lot about God, when it comes to that. Including even I AM THAT I AM. Take the fine tuning that fits the observed cosmos for C-chemistry, aqueous medium, cell based life . . . it points to purpose and design, as does the functionally specific complex organisation and information in such life. Not to mention, codes. Language before cell based life! Designing mind as best explanation of evident design [note the distinction], absent imposed ideological question-begging lockouts, as we have exposed so often at UD. Mix in our responsible rational freedom and inescapable moral government and we need a root of reality adequate to account for that. This is the level where ethical theism, dry as it is as a bare philosophical proposal, becomes a serious worldview option. The option to beat. With evolutionary materialistic scientism stumbling fatally in the starting gates as it is self-falsifying. In short, we have 150 years worth of intellectual reforms to undertake. Beyond, we can now appreciate that the ethical theistic, Judaeo-Christian tradition is not just an arbitrary notion put up by a bunch of priests and hucksters, a culturally enforced commonplace, intellectually ill-founded notion. No, before we get to history, prophecy, the resurrection, onward prophecy in fulfillment around us and the transforming power of meeting God in the face of Jesus, we see that there is a bill of particulars to be met that this specific tradition fills powerfully thank you. Or, if you want scriptural backative, let me cite Rom 1:
Rom 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! . . . . 28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind [--> the fool says in his heart . . . ] to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
In short, we should not be surprised in the end to see the sort of evidence and implications out there that point us so strongly to what we are seeing. KF PS: In a day of rampant, ideologically embedded atheistical domineering, is it any surprise to see a wave of calls to dismiss and even publicly sneer at, shame and silence prayer, weeping with the mourning and thoughts of condolence, in the interests of a political agenda patently intent on disarming the public (creating ever so many more soft targets and locking out the 10 second responder when police etc are 10 minutes away)? At a time when the shooting and incident were still in progress and many caught up were calling for prayer? (Would it not make a lot better sense to be organising a civilian marshals corps and making it as pervasive as possible? But that is for later on, the first response in the face of an existential threat and the anguish of shock grief is prayer to the God who loves, suffered awfully for us to bring us salvation, healing and deliverance, and who heals by the power of his own awful stripes. I guess the sneering objectors have never read or taken seriously the touchstone of Bible prophecy, Isa 53.)kairosfocus
December 4, 2015
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There we go again with the "necessary" being construct. The necessary being construct makes us forsake choosing in reaching the conclusion God exists, and forces the conclusion God exists by logic of necessity. That way it puts all subjectivity in doubt. Creationism is the only philosophical construct which validates both subjectivity and objectivity into 2 separate domains, creator and creation. How ordinary subjectivity works, like saying "the painting is beautiful", is to choose about what it is that chooses, resulting in an opinion. It means any opinion is only valid when chosen, and that the opinion must reference agency of a decision, agency being that which makes a decision turn out the way it does. (in regards to the beautiful painting the agency is love, and the other option was ugly / hate) In contrast, how objectivity works is to make a model of something. For example there is the moon and a book about the moon containing the facts about it. The book about the moon models the actual moon. If there is a crater there and there on the actual moon, then so it says in the book, there and there is a crater on the moon. So we have 2 domains 1 creator - what is in this category chooses, which is the mechanism of creation - spiritual domain - subjectivity: what is in this domain can only be found out by choosing if or not it is, by expression of emotion with free will 2 creation - what is in this category is chosen, meaning that the entire universe is a contingency - material domain - objectivity: what is in this domain can only be found out by a way of evidence forcing to produce a 1 to 1 model of it. And while naturalists, atheists, materialists, etc. have done a pretty good job with facts, they have totally sucked at opinions, subjectivity. That is because there is no accommodation for subjectivity whatsoever in those philosophies. And while I say in general they have done a pretty good job with facts, they also suck in describing the facts of anything in terms of freedom, including human behaviour. This is also why they oppose intelligent design / creation theory. Because intelligent design theory is based on freedom, while they reject freedom is real, because they reject subjectivity. But that lack of knowledge about how things work in a free way is just a minor point of criticism, in comparison to the point of their anti-human rejection of subjectivity.mohammadnursyamsu
December 4, 2015
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Mapou, the necessary being root of reality needs not be a creator (e.g. 100 years ago it was commonly felt that the observed cosmos was eternal, hence the steady state concept and the resistance to the Big Bang; and many today have no background to understand necessary being or the consequences of there ever having been utter nothing . . . as certain recent assertions by Krause [sp?], Hawkins and Dawkins etc have shown). The Cosmic Architect and IS grounding ought will be personal, moral and Creator. That is, there is a cumulative case to be addressed. And, there is more need for the argumentation above (and in earlier posts, e.g. on FSM) than you seem to realise. KFkairosfocus
December 4, 2015
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kairosfocus:
God as World-root Being...Comos Architect
World-root being? Cosmos Architect? Man, I'm sorry. The English language is a very powerful and expressive language. There is no need to invent new expressions to make a simple point. A simple "creator" would have been adequate. Also, brevity is divine. Ernest Hemingway has taught us all how to write clear prose decades ago and the Bible is a powerful example on how to use simple metaphors to get one's point across without a deluge of words. We live in a world that is saturated with information. Time is precious. I bet that few readers have time to read even a fraction of what you post on UD. PS. No hostility on my part. Just my honest criticism.Mapou
December 4, 2015
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Mung, I come from Kgn Ja mon, where just to look up to the North you see peaks climbing away and not the valleys between. I always thought the stone was Messiah, and his kingdom is an already and not yet that fills more and more. KF PS: Let me add here on principles.kairosfocus
December 4, 2015
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You mean the stone striking the feet of the image and filling the whole earth is not some future event we're still waiting for (e.g., ten toes = the revived roman empire)? I'll make a preterist of you yet kf! ;)Mung
December 4, 2015
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Let us discuss the reasonableness of ethical theism, in response to the talking point that such is at best a culturally induced ill-supported commonplace notion.kairosfocus
December 4, 2015
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