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Bateson on common descent: No evidence but no alternative

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A friend writes to offer this excerpt from British biologist William Bateson (1861–1926):

In what follows it will be assumed that the Doctrine of Descent is true. It should be admitted from the first that the truth of the doctrine has never been proved. There is nevertheless a great balance of evidence in his favor, but it finds its support not so much in direct observation as in the difficulty of forming any alternative hypothesis. The Theory of Descent involves and
asserts that all living things are genetically connected, and this principle is at least not contrary to observation; while any alternative hypothesis involves the idea of Separate Creation which by common consent is now recognized as absurd. In favor of the Doctrine of Common Descent there is a balance of evidence; it is besides accepted by most naturalists; lastly if it is not true we can get no further with the problem; but inasmuch as it is unproven it is right that we should explicitly recognize that it is in part an assumption and that we have adopted it as a postulate. – From Bateson, W. 1894. Materials for the Study of Variation, Treated with
Especial Regard to Discontinuity in the Origin of Species. [online] Macmillan,
London.

That was the late 19th century view, for sure. But it assumes certain things, including that evolution is almost all Darwinian. But what if …

Craig Venter

Take that away, and we look at a very different picture. For example, genome mapper Craig Venter (no slouch he) made Richard Dawkins incredulous a couple years back by denying common descent. As William Dembski puts it there:

What’s significant is not so much whether Venter is right (I think he is), but what his dissent from Darwinian orthodoxy suggests about the disarray in the study of biological origins. If common descent is up for grabs, what isn’t? Imagine physics in the century after Newton questioning whether there even is such a force as gravity or suggesting that really it decomposes into several different types of gravitational forces.

Venter’s flight from orthodoxy is even more drastic. Common descent is the sanctum sanctorum of evolutionary biology. If scientists of Venter’s stature are now desecrating it, what’s next?

Well, come to think of it, Carl Woese (1928-2012), who discovered the domain of life called Archaea, and regretted that he had never fetched the vacuum cleaner for the spook of Darwin, was no fan either. Again, no slouch.

That’s a risk for a historical thesis that depends on the assumption that no alternative explanation makes any sense. Later, smart people can come up with alternative explanations in some cases. Then it’s all up for grabs.

And Bateson has only the likes of Panda’s Thumb or BioLogos to defend him.

Rotten luck, but his achievements remain.

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Comments
Zach
Are you saying common ancestry, but modified intelligently, or are you saying Special Creation in the pattern of Common Descent?
"Intelligent modification" is a form of special creation since there has to be input from an intelligent agent at some point in the process. It could be front-loaded, so that all the descent-patterns that follow were anticipated within a range of possible outcomes (if there was a super-intellect and understanding of how mutations would play-out over eons) - thus error correction and stasis alongside rapid adaptation. Or, the modification could be continual with intelligent guidance/monitoring built into the process. So again, a modification is a creation-act. This would enhance and make possible, otherwise improbable developments or major jumps (e.g. from single cell to multicellular life). Or there are other forms of special creation -- for example, the creation of first life, first body plans evident in the Cambrian, first human life and then adaptations from there. This would be "common descent within species" - which is not controversial but special creation would be the explanation for macro-evolution. This would appear in the pattern of common descent, but not as a blind, unintelligent process. So, wherever there is the input of intelligence in the process, there is a creation-act of some kind. In other words, it's not a blind, unguided event but a purposeful act by an intelligent agent. We do observe directly that species do change through micro-evolutionary adaptations so the idea of a special creation of all living beings we see today in the form that they are in today would be more difficult to justify (as I see it).Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2015
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Silver Asiatic: Common Descent includes in its definition “through blind, unguided, material processes with no input from intelligent agents”. Common Descent just refers to common ancestry. So dogs share a common ancestry, even though they have been subject to artificial selection and cross-breeding. The term often entails universal common ancestry, though the most recent common ancestor may not have been a single species, but a community of organisms. Silver Asiatic: Common Design, on the contrary, could show the same patterns of ancestry, but the changes would be explained by the input (either front-loaded, continual or in-process) are possible only through intelligent agency. Are you saying common ancestry, but modified intelligently, or are you saying Special Creation in the pattern of Common Descent?Zachriel
March 27, 2015
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Common Descent includes in its definition "through blind, unguided, material processes with no input from intelligent agents". Common Design, on the contrary, could show the same patterns of ancestry, but the changes would be explained by the input (either front-loaded, continual or in-process) are possible only through intelligent agency. Support for Common Design is that blind, unintelligent, unguided material processes cannot explain what we observe, whereas what we observe closely resembles what we know and observe from intelligent processes.Silver Asiatic
March 27, 2015
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DebianFanatic,
The truth of ETs has never been proved. There is nevertheless a great balance of evidence for ETs, but it finds its support not so much in direct observation as in the difficulty of forming any alternative hypothesis for crop circles and reports of alien abductions.
Actually, I would say that it definitely sounds like he's saying that there is evidence for ETs. But I would add that he's open to the possibility that ETs don't exist and that a better alternative explanation for the evidence may appear one day. It's not evidence that convinces me that ETs have visited earth, but I would certainly say that it counts as evidence.
He’s saying there is not actual evidence for ET, but only that he has no other alternative explanation for certain data.
If the data wasn't evidence for ET, than why would he care whether alternative explanations existed? If the data wasn't evidence of anything than it'd be neutral on the matter. Do you think you can re-word what he's saying as "There's no evidence for ETs but I believe they exist based on the data"?goodusername
March 26, 2015
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I'm not smart enough to know anything about Bateson's conclusions, but I do understand what he's saying. Let's move it to the topic of extraterrestrials: The truth of ETs has never been proved. There is nevertheless a great balance of evidence for ETs, but it finds its support not so much in direct observation as in the difficulty of forming any alternative hypothesis for crop circles and reports of alien abductions. Does that sound like he's saying there is or there is not actual evidence for ETs? He's saying there is not actual evidence for ET, but only that he has no other alternative explanation for certain data. The title of this article is accurate; Bateson is saying "no evidence but no alternative".DebianFanatic
March 26, 2015
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Mark Frank:
1) Multicellular life is always descended from some other form of life
Baraminology
2) The transition from unicellular life to multicellular life is extraordinarily rare (we have never observed it)
It never happened. That is how rare it is.
5) Multicellular life can be arranged in a morphological hierarchy which is reflected both in genetics and the fossil record which suggests there was in fact only one such tree
False. Convergent evolution and common design can explain the same evidence. You still don't have a mechanism capable of producing the changes required.Joe
March 26, 2015
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vel:
Ok, you determine it is ID, then what next? Which question first?
How does it work?
For all you know your intelligence could be using those “inadequate “processes ,how could you tell one way or the other?
Why would a designer try to use inadequate mechanisms?Joe
March 26, 2015
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Box #34 – correction to my #58 I realise that my argument is faulty.  Let’s try again. The importance of noting that every multicellular living thing is descended from another living thing is simply that if it were not true then common descent would be disproved. It is necessary but not sufficient for common descent. A more important observation is: (X ) Every living thing is descended from one or more parents that are extremely similar (as once upon a time there was no life then some living things must have been descended from things that were borderline alive). The argument for common descent is different. As always it depends what you mean by common descent. Possible interpretations include:  A) life began only once B) there was a LUCA (last universal common ancestor) C) life has evolved in tree like fashion with a fairly similar set of simple life forms being the ancestors of a far greater diversity of more complicated life forms My concern is with (C). This follows from X above plus the knowledge that once upon a time there were no living things and then for many billions of years there were only very simple life forms. Of course you can then add all the evidence from morphological and genetic hierarchies (i.e. cladistics) backed up by the fossil record.Mark Frank
March 26, 2015
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Box #34
So evidence for “descent” is equal to evidence for “common descent”? The fact that flies have parents just like us is somehow evidence that we share a common ancestor? Can you elaborate on why this is exactly evidence for common descent?
It is part of the evidence. You need to take into account all the evidence I listed together. Here is the argument laid out. 1) Multicellular life is always descended from some other form of life 2) The transition from unicellular life to multicellular life is extraordinarily rare (we have never observed it) 3) Therefore if there were multiple ancestors of multicellular life each one was the result of a very unusual event i.e. there weren’t many of them. 4) However, there are tens of millions of different species (observation). Therefore multicellular life comprises one or more trees – branching out from one or a few ancestors 5) Multicellular life can be arranged in a morphological hierarchy which is reflected both in genetics and the fossil record which suggests there was in fact only one such treeMark Frank
March 26, 2015
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REC Nobody said Craig Venter is a creationist, what people said is that his research is something creationists are ok with.... As for no Common Ancestry and no universal code..... He said it to a live audience and straight to your high priests face! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8jMCiXKxJo But please do me a favour defend your dogma don't follow the evidence where it may lead!Andre
March 25, 2015
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velikovskys:
Or it may be more complicated as it become more specific, many designs are, Could the new data be a problem for ID? Not to worry, data can only confirm ,never disconfirm a theory with lack of entailments.
Intelligent design would be falsified if species could not be classified in a hierarchy. It would also be falsified if horizontal gene transfers did not exist. A hierarchical classification structure is always the result of design over time. This is what is observed in both natural designs and human designs. Live with it.Mapou
March 25, 2015
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rhampton:
Parts of it, especially the part with the talking snake and the trees of life and knowledge are obviously metaphorical Mapou, I wish that were so. But there are plenty of Christians who agree with Answers in Genesis:
I am not one of them. I believe Ken Ham is mistaken at best and a con artist at worst. There are plenty of those in Christendom.Mapou
March 25, 2015
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Mung: Yes, if we just ignore the data that fails to confirm the hypothesis of common descent we can aver that the hypothesis of common descent ought to be accepted as true. Or it may be more complicated as it become more specific, many designs are, Could the new data be a problem for ID? Not to worry, data can only confirm ,never disconfirm a theory with lack of entailments.velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Joe: Of course we do. We just don’t need to know it before we can determine intelligent design is present and then Ok, you determine it is ID, then what next? Which question first? However yours is the mechanistic concept yet it doesn’t have a mechanism that is up to the task. For all you know your intelligence could be using those "inadequate "processes ,how could you tell one way or the other?velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Yes, if we just ignore the data that fails to confirm the hypothesis of common descent we can aver that the hypothesis of common descent ought to be accepted as true. Who thought otherwise?Mung
March 25, 2015
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Seeing as we are talking about common descent...(and HGT has always been a perplexing concept to me with regards to certain organisms), this may be of interest: http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/a_big_problem_f094701.htmlDr JDD
March 25, 2015
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vel:
You don’t need a mechanism,
Of course we do. We just don't need to know it before we can determine intelligent design is present and then study it. However yours is the mechanistic concept yet it doesn't have a mechanism that is up to the task.Joe
March 25, 2015
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Parts of it, especially the part with the talking snake and the trees of life and knowledge are obviously metaphorical Mapou, I wish that were so. But there are plenty of Christians who agree with Answers in Genesis:
the talking serpent was a vessel enabled for another being to use or speak through—Satan, in the case of the serpent
and Ken Ham:
...you see in our Bible verse that God opened the mouth of a donkey and it talked. Whenever it will serve God’s perfect plan, He can use anything to convey His message, even a donkey. In the same way, God allowed Satan (the devil) to use the serpent to disguise himself and tempt Eve.
rhampton7
March 25, 2015
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Joe: Come up with a mechanism capable of producing the changes and test it. Then get back to us. The circumstantial evidence can easily fit common design. We have plenty of experience with that in our world. You don't need a mechanism,velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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REC:
Mapou: So you have a post-hoc rationalization about how your religion really really fits the data (allowing for things to appear out of sequence, forgetting microbial life, fishes=whales, ya know). One of many.
This is another blatant case of the pot calling the kettle black. Everything is rationalization of the evidence. All I'm saying is that the tree of life is not evidence against design as you falsely claim. It is evidence FOR design and against Darwinian evolution. The book of Genesis is many books in one and is open to interpretation. Parts of it, especially the part with the talking snake and the trees of life and knowledge are obviously metaphorical. Genesis also suggests that there were several attempts (followed by massive planned extinctions) at engineering life on earth. This explains the seemingly out of sequence narration. So any accusation of rationalization coming from you, a dirt worshipper, is no more favorable to your side than milking a barren heifer. After all, we all know about the endless supply of just-so stories that fill Darwinist literature.Mapou
March 25, 2015
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OK so Venter is near-sighted also. What mechanism produced all of the changes? Natural selection and drift are impotent. Descent with modification gets us different types of finches but cannot explain the finch. All of the evidence for universal common descent is nothing more than "this looks like what I think it should". Come up with a mechanism capable of producing the changes and test it. Then get back to us. The circumstantial evidence can easily fit common design. We have plenty of experience with that in our world.Joe
March 25, 2015
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More: Venter: One question is, can we extrapolate back from this data set to describe the most recent common ancestor. I don't necessarily buy that there is a single ancestor. It’s counterintuitive to me. I think we may have thousands of recent common ancestors and they are not necessarily so common. Other things you can throw into the mix: we have organisms that could absolutely survive long-term space flight, they can take millions of Rads of ionizing radiation, they can be totally desiccated; when they reach an aqueous source they can repair their genome and start replicating again. Thus, you could potentially view evolution as a six- to seven-to eight billion year event, not a three- to four-billion year event, if life can travel around the universe. That adds a lot of dimensionality to things when we think of life in other planets and galexcies We exchange roughly a hundred kilograms of material annually with Mars. So we're exchanging biological material and biological information. To me it's just a matter of time until life is found on Mars. It's inevitable. It won't tell us whether it originated on Mars, or originated on Earth, but there'll be common overlap. We won't know if we don't know our own planet's genetic repertoire, which we're in the earliest stages of discovering. There are the evolutionary aspects, the origin of life aspects to this, which make it very intriguing.velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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Joe: I already provided a link @23 to a paper he is an author on. It mentions the tree of life, times of branch points, conserved genes. Oddly, it doesn't mention baramins. Huh. Mapou: So you have a post-hoc rationalization about how your religion really really fits the data (allowing for things to appear out of sequence, forgetting microbial life, fishes=whales, ya know). One of many.REC
March 25, 2015
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Joe: REC Do you have any evidence that he accepts and is looking for evidence to support universal common descent? J. CRAIG VENTER: Biological evolution has taken 3.5 or 4 billion years to get us where we are. The adaption of our species to the social environment -- social evolution -- has been much faster.velikovskys
March 25, 2015
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REC:
Putting aside the 121 year old quote for now, I’m puzzled by creationists embracing Venter. In describing his pioneering work on uncultured environmental DNA, he describes frequently invokes common descent and the tree of life, including propositions that he’s looking deeper than anyone else can and exposing other branches on the tree of life. If he denies shared ancestry, why is he working on phylogenetic trees?
I am a Christian (an unorthodox one, I admit) and I believe that life on earth was designed and engineered from dirt by advanced intelligent beings with a purpose. Not only do I believe in the tree of life, my religion was the first to propose such a tree (see Genesis. And yes, there is also a tree of knowledge). The tree is not just a consequence of intelligent design over time, it is also how the information in every genome is organized. So my question to you is, why is the tree of life evidence against design?Mapou
March 25, 2015
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LoL! @ REC- All I did was to state a fact- that baraminology is OK with phylogenetic trees (plural) and REC has a meltdown. I didn't ask you to prove me wrong. I asked you to provide what Venter does accept. Grow up.Joe
March 25, 2015
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@39 Oh right, I forgot this was UD. You can call Stephen Hawkings a theist (based on a tabloid), just make up that Craig Venter is a creationist bariminologist out of thin freaking air, and then challenge everyone to prove you wrong. What a joke.REC
March 25, 2015
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REC Do you have any evidence that he accepts and is looking for evidence to support universal common descent? Can you point to any finding that run contrary to baraminology? And yes all Creationists take the concept seriously. Why wouldn't they?Joe
March 25, 2015
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Joe @35 Do you have any evidence that Craig Venter is a creationist working in support of "baraminology?" Can you name a single specific finding of his that supports it? I didn't even think creation "scientists" took baramins seriously these days. Nor do I think the few baraminologists that do persist seriously believe phylogenetic groupings reflect baramins.REC
March 25, 2015
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wd400, I thought of you when I read this article from Luskin:
Another Successful Prediction of Intelligent Design: Cell Paper Reports Functions for Synonymous Codons - Casey Luskin - March 18, 2015 Excerpt: evolutionists have long assumed that synonymous codons are functionally equivalent and represent a "junk element" of sorts in the genome. They assumed that one synonymous codon is no better than any other, so which synonymous codon you use doesn't really matter. Not only does this idea stem directly from the assumption of unguided, blind evolution, but it has become the basis for methodologies that attempt to detect natural selection (or the lack thereof) in the genome. When synonymous codons (which don't change amino acid sequence) prevail in frequency over non-synonymous codons (which do change amino acid sequence), that is said to suggest neutral evolution. But when genetic differences that change amino acid sequence (non-synonymous codons) prevail, this has been cited by numerous studies as purportedly showing natural selection acting upon a gene. These are the sorts of studies touted by Darwin advocacy groups like the National Center for Science Education as evidence that we understand how new genes evolve (see here and here).,,, But if synonymous codons can have different functions, then that means that these methods are wrong to begin with. Studies that purport to detect natural selection in the genome find no such thing. Instead, these studies reflect how evolutionary assumptions can mistake important functional elements of the genome for the remnant noise of unguided evolutionary processes. It's another example of how Darwinian thinking leads molecular biology down the wrong path. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/03/another_success094531.html
bornagain77
March 25, 2015
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