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Do zoologists own evolution? Should they?

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2016-04-17-1460907495-5806724-GeoffreyWestSantaFeInstitutePortrait.jpgPhysicist Geoffrey West in an Suzan Mazur at Huffington Post:

Suzan Mazur: Do zoologists own the evolution discussion?

Geoffrey West: To a large extent the answer is yes they do own it, and they have to some extent cornered the market. They believe, perhaps rightly so, that they have all of the expertise. But clearly, other areas of biology, and also other sciences such as physics, chemistry and computer science should be an integral part of the conversation. The upcoming Royal Society meeting on evolution that you’ve been writing about, which has eminent biologists and philosophers represented, basically has almost no scientists from the hard sciences, which is where some of the important answers and insights are potentially going to come from.

A major conceptual challenge is the question of the origins of complexity in the universe that we need to understand before we can truly understand the origins and laws of life:

How does something so simple as the laws of physics produce something so complex? How does that happen? What are the mechanisms that give rise to that?

Most importantly, what are the underlying principles that augment, whether you believe in it or not, the principle of natural selection? Those are questions where having a dialogue with physicists — especially physicists who have thought about complex adaptive systems — could be quite productive.

Suzan Mazur: Do you have any plans to attend the Royal Society evolution meeting?

Geoffrey West: I don’t. And I haven’t seen the official list of speakers, but I’m disappointed that physicists, or chemists and computer scientists, aren’t represented. I like the idea that there are philosophers speaking though because hopefully they would have thought deeply about some of the questions of evolution. More.

The Paradigm Shifters: Overthrowing 'the Hegemony of the Culture of Darwin' Of course, one difficulty is that in order to understand the origin and development of life over time we need to understand the origin of information.

Information, which principally differentiates life from non-life, is not matter or energy. What is it? How does it relate to matter and energy?

The reigning theory among zoologists is that such a discussion is unnecessary. Darwinism (natural selection acting on random mutation generates huge levels of information, not noise). That clearly isn’t tenable and is fuelled mainly by zeal. So, if zoologists dominate, the Royal Society meet will just be an expensive waste of time.

It all reminds one of sociologist Steve Fuller’s comment that Darwinism is now in the same mess that floored astrology.

Not only isn’t current theory correct, but apparently no useful work can take place under its dominance. Pity. Someone someday will need to do that work.

Here’s Part 1 of the series.

Suzan Mazur is author of The Paradigm Shifters: Overthrowing “the Hegemony of the Culture of Darwin”

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Comments
I.E. And can you point me to the exact mathematical equation that will produce the complete works of Shakespeare when I plug the equation into a computer? And seeing as it is completely ludicrous for someone believe that a mathematical equation could ever produce the complete works of Shakespeare why do you insist on believing against all reason that there can ever be a mathematical formulation as to how the far more sophisticated language of the 3 billion letters in our DNA came to be? As my Mom might of said, "you are a few fries short of a happy meal" to believe as such!
Infinite monkey theorem Excerpt: "One computer program run by Dan Oliver of Scottsdale, Arizona, according to an article in The New Yorker, came up with a result on August 4, 2004: After the group had worked for 42,162,500,000 billion billion monkey-years, one of the "monkeys" typed, "VALENTINE. Cease toIdor:eFLP0FRjWK78aXzVOwm)-‘;8.t" The first 19 letters of this sequence can be found in "The Two Gentlemen of Verona". Other teams have reproduced 18 characters from "Timon of Athens", 17 from "Troilus and Cressida", and 16 from "Richard II".[24] A website entitled The Monkey Shakespeare Simulator, launched on July 1, 2003, contained a Java applet that simulates a large population of monkeys typing randomly, with the stated intention of seeing how long it takes the virtual monkeys to produce a complete Shakespearean play from beginning to end. For example, it produced this partial line from Henry IV, Part 2, reporting that it took "2,737,850 million billion billion billion monkey-years" to reach 24 matching characters: RUMOUR. Open your ears; 9r"5j5&?OWTY Z0d..." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite_monkey_theorem John Lennox – Is There Evidence of Something Beyond Nature? (Semiotic Information) – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6rd4HEdffw “Computers are no more able to create information than iPods are capable of creating music.” Robert Marks Multiple Overlapping Genetic Codes Profoundly Reduce the Probability of Beneficial Mutation George Montañez 1, Robert J. Marks II 2, Jorge Fernandez 3 and John C. Sanford 4 - May 2013 Conclusions: Our analysis confirms mathematically what would seem intuitively obvious - multiple overlapping codes within the genome must radically change our expectations regarding the rate of beneficial mutations. As the number of overlapping codes increases, the rate of potential beneficial mutation decreases exponentially, quickly approaching zero. Therefore the new evidence for ubiquitous overlapping codes in higher genomes strongly indicates that beneficial mutations should be extremely rare. This evidence combined with increasing evidence that biological systems are highly optimized, and evidence that only relatively high-impact beneficial mutations can be effectively amplified by natural selection, lead us to conclude that mutations which are both selectable and unambiguously beneficial must be vanishingly rare. This conclusion raises serious questions. How might such vanishingly rare beneficial mutations ever be sufficient for genome building? How might genetic degeneration ever be averted, given the continuous accumulation of low impact deleterious mutations? http://www.worldscientific.com/doi/pdf/10.1142/9789814508728_0006 “One of the things I do in my classes, to get this idea across to students, is I hold up two computer disks. One is loaded with software, and the other one is blank. And I ask them, ‘what is the difference in mass between these two computer disks, as a result of the difference in the information content that they posses’? And of course the answer is, ‘Zero! None! There is no difference as a result of the information. And that’s because information is a mass-less quantity. Now, if information is not a material entity, then how can any materialistic explanation account for its origin? How can any material cause explain it’s origin? And this is the real and fundamental problem that the presence of information in biology has posed. It creates a fundamental challenge to the materialistic, evolutionary scenarios because information is a different kind of entity that matter and energy cannot produce. In the nineteenth century we thought that there were two fundamental entities in science; matter, and energy. At the beginning of the twenty first century, we now recognize that there’s a third fundamental entity; and its ‘information’. It’s not reducible to matter. It’s not reducible to energy. But it’s still a very important thing that is real; we buy it, we sell it, we send it down wires. Now, what do we make of the fact, that information is present at the very root of all biological function? In biology, we have matter, we have energy, but we also have this third, very important entity; information. I think the biology of the information age, poses a fundamental challenge to any materialistic approach to the origin of life.” -Dr. Stephen C. Meyer earned his Ph.D. in the History and Philosophy of science from Cambridge University for a dissertation on the history of origin-of-life biology and the methodology of the historical sciences. Intelligent design: Why can't biological information originate through a materialistic process? - Stephen Meyer - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqiXNxyoof8
bornagain77
April 19, 2016
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Sorry Mung. That was uncalled for but "the devil made me do it"Indiana Effigy
April 19, 2016
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Mung is not an idiot, but he plays one at UD:)Indiana Effigy
April 19, 2016
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BA77: "I think there is a good reason why Darwinists don’t want mathematicians..." R. A. Fisher. Co- founder of the modern synthesis (neo-Darwinism) was a mathematician. Do you ever get tired of being wrong?Indiana Effigy
April 19, 2016
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Biology is not physics or chemistry to any REAL degree! Why do they think it is? Yes gravity controls biological entities in moving about but so what! ZOOlogists?? Figuring things out about biology or anything can be done by anyone who has studied the matter. A smarter then average mechanic could apply free time to these subjects and trump a degree-ed evo biologist. Its just people(tailless primates for some) putting their minds to things. I insist its very small circles that now or ever made conclusions about bio origins and they were not the sharpest chips off the block. Interested normal people can do better. Case in point is evolutionism. In short mankind owns intelligence and accuracy in investigating nature. Its easy to understand these subjects and not hard to improve on them.Robert Byers
April 19, 2016
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Moran is not a zoologist. But he does run a zoo.Mung
April 19, 2016
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I think there is a good reason why Darwinists don't want mathematicians in particular to be 'part of the conversation' on evolution:
Darwinian Evolution is a Pseudo-Science - Mathematics – video https://www.facebook.com/philip.cunningham.73/videos/vb.100000088262100/1132659110080354/?type=2&theater Conservation of information, evolution, etc - Sept. 30, 2014 Excerpt: Kurt Gödel’s logical objection to Darwinian evolution: "The formation in geological time of the human body by the laws of physics (or any other laws of similar nature), starting from a random distribution of elementary particles and the field is as unlikely as the separation of the atmosphere into its components. The complexity of the living things has to be present within the material [from which they are derived] or in the laws [governing their formation]." Gödel - As quoted in H. Wang. “On `computabilism’ and physicalism: Some Problems.” in Nature’s Imagination, J. Cornwall, Ed, pp.161-189, Oxford University Press (1995). Gödel’s argument is that if evolution is unfolding from an initial state by mathematical laws of physics, it cannot generate any information not inherent from the start – and in his view, neither the primaeval environment nor the laws are information-rich enough.,,, More recently this led him (Dembski) to postulate a Law of Conservation of Information, or actually to consolidate the idea, first put forward by Nobel-prizewinner Peter Medawar in the 1980s. Medawar had shown, as others before him, that in mathematical and computational operations, no new information can be created, but new findings are always implicit in the original starting points – laws and axioms.,,, http://potiphar.jongarvey.co.uk/2014/09/30/conservation-of-information-evolution-etc/ Evolutionary Computing: The Invisible Hand of Intelligence - June 17, 2015 Excerpt: William Dembski and Robert Marks have shown that no evolutionary algorithm is superior to blind search -- unless information is added from an intelligent cause, which means it is not, in the Darwinian sense, an evolutionary algorithm after all. This mathematically proven law, based on the accepted No Free Lunch Theorems, seems to be lost on the champions of evolutionary computing. Researchers keep confusing an evolutionary algorithm (a form of artificial selection) with "natural evolution." ,,, Marks and Dembski account for the invisible hand required in evolutionary computing. The Lab's website states, "The principal theme of the lab's research is teasing apart the respective roles of internally generated and externally applied information in the performance of evolutionary systems." So yes, systems can evolve, but when they appear to solve a problem (such as generating complex specified information or reaching a sufficiently narrow predefined target), intelligence can be shown to be active. Any internally generated information is conserved or degraded by the law of Conservation of Information.,,, What Marks and Dembski (mathematically) prove is as scientifically valid and relevant as Gödel's Incompleteness Theorem in mathematics. You can't prove a system of mathematics from within the system, and you can't derive an information-rich pattern from within the pattern.,,, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/06/evolutionary_co_1096931.html What Does "Life's Conservation Law" Actually Say? - Winston Ewert - December 3, 2015 Excerpt: All information must eventually derive from a source external to the universe, http://www.evolutionnews.org/2015/12/what_does_lifes101331.html
bornagain77
April 19, 2016
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"But clearly, other areas of biology, and also other sciences such as physics, chemistry and computer science should be an integral part of the conversation." And they do. Gould was not a zoologist. Moran is not a zoologist. Do I really have to provide a list?Indiana Effigy
April 19, 2016
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