Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Emergence as an Explanation for Living Systems

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Evolution
Irreducible Complexity
Origin Of Life
rhetoric
Self-Org. Theory
specified complexity
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Yesterday I watched a re-run of a Star Trek: The Next Generation episode.

There. I said it.

I love Star Trek. Notwithstanding the many absurd evolution-based plotlines.

In this specific episode, Data referred to a particular characteristic of a newly-developing lifeform as an “emergent property.”

I’ve looked into the “emergence” ideas in the past, and the related self-organization hypotheses, and have never been too impressed. But it has been a while, so I thought I’d quickly navigate over to the Wikipedia page on the subject to see what it says. Now I’m a big fan of the general concept behind Wikipedia and it is a very useful tool, if used properly. Yet everyone knows that Wikipedia is a questionable source on controversial subjects. Want to know Abraham Lincoln’s birthday or the text of the Gettysburg Address? Wikipedia is great. Want to get an objective description of a controversial subject like — oh just to pick at random, say, evolution or intelligent design — and you will be sorely misled.

Emergence itself is not necessarily controversial, at least not in its simple, observationally-based definition. Wikipedia describes it as “a process whereby larger entities, patterns, and regularities arise through interactions among smaller or simpler entities that themselves do not exhibit such properties.” Fine. Nothing particularly controversial there. I’m willing to accept that as a reasonable working definition for purposes of discussion.

The problem arises when researchers or theorists imagine that emergence is an explanation for a particular phenomenon. For example, the very next paragraph on Wikipedia states, “the phenomenon life as studied in biology is commonly perceived as an emergent property of interacting molecules . . .” By labeling “life” as an “emergent property of interacting molecules” a researcher can fool herself into thinking that she has understood something foundational about life, that she has provided some kind of explanation for life. Yet she has done nothing of the sort. She has simply applied a label to her ignorance, has simply given a name to something she doesn’t understand.

The word “emerge” is typically defined as “to come forth into view or notice, as from concealment” or “to come up or arise” or “to come into existence” or “to develop”.

This is straightforward enough, and allows us to say that, in its most basic sense, the concept of “emergence” simply means that A + B leads to or develops into C. This can be deterministic or stochastic, but either way, it is quite simple. The following two sentences are substantively equivalent:

A plus B develops into C.
C is an emergent property of A plus B.

Notice that with the first sentence we would immediately ask the follow-up question: “How?” Yet with the second sentence we don’t naturally follow up with that question. Indeed, the wording gives the impression that the “how?” has been answered by the very term “is an emergent property.” But in reality, no explanation at all is offered. No “how” has been given. We don’t know one iota more about the real, underlying processes at work after reading the second sentence than the first. So we should still follow up the second sentence with an emphatic “How?”, yet the very rhetorical stance taken in the second sentence tends to discourage that critical follow-up question.

Calling a living organism an “emergent property” of various molecules, is about as helpful and intellectually vacuous as saying that the Space Shuttle is an “emergent property” of glass, metal and plastic. It isn’t helpful. It hasn’t added anything to our knowledge of what actually brought the system into being. Worse, it all too often gives the false impression that an explanation has been offered.*

Let me be clear. I am not arguing that the word “emergence” be stricken from our language. I am not suggesting that the concept, as commonly defined, might not be a helpful shorthand label that we can use in certain situations.

What I am saying is that we must be scrupulously careful to not allow the label of “emergence” to be treated as more than it is: a label that does not carry with it an actual explanation, a label that does not provide a detailed analysis, a label that (unless we are extremely vigilant) tends to mask ignorance, rather than shed light.

So, for our dear readers, two questions:

1. What, if anything, does the concept of “emergence” add to our understanding of natural phenomena? And how is calling X an “emergent property” any different from simply observing that X occurred?

2. Even if there are some phenomena that can be helpfully thought of as emergent phenomena (Wikipedia cites snowflakes, hurricanes, ripple patterns in a sand dune, etc.), what relevance does that have to the origin and development of living systems?

—–

* Laughably, Wikipedia even tries to suggest that irreducible complexity is nothing more than a case of emergence, as though that label explains the existence of irreducibly complex biological systems. Worse, not capable of seeing the irony, the intellectual pygmies who tyrannically maintain the irreducible complexity page call irreducible complexity “a pseudoscientific theory.”

Comments
Carpathian It is impossible for a mind but absolutely nothing could do it? Ok chump off the cough medicine...Andre
July 9, 2015
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Mapou, Carpathian is someone who doesn't understand science and loves to misrepresent ID.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
There is not a single IDist I’ve seen here who has in any way indicated that they have actually investigated whether or not ID is plausible.
The evidence says that the design is real. And if your position had something we wouldn't even be talking about ID, yet here we are.
You may not like it but proponents of “Darwinism” have done that very thing ID won’t which is to try and verify whether “Darwinism” is something that can work.
We know darwinism doesn't work. It can't be modeled and offers nothing to test.
ID has zero evidence in favour of it...
There is plenty of evidence for ID and nothing for your position. Living organisms are evidence for ID. The earth and solar system are evidence for ID. The laws of nature are evidence for ID.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Who is this Carpathian fool? I suspect that a lot of the more dense, cowardly and vocal Darwinists who comment here in disguise are actually more famous members of the Darwinist gang. Do Dawkins, Myers and Coyne and the the other loud internet jackasses comment here without us knowing?Mapou
July 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
By figuring out what was required and then designing it.
Well of course you should do that but no one has! There is not a single IDist I've seen here who has in any way indicated that they have actually investigated whether or not ID is plausible. You may not like it but proponents of "Darwinism" have done that very thing ID won't which is to try and verify whether "Darwinism" is something that can work. ID has zero evidence in favour of it but has instead generated a lot of reasons why a theory outside ID is implausible which is not helping ID as a theory at all.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
ID is supposed to be the alternative to “Darwinism” !
Darwinism and all of its variants are nonsense that is why there is ID. If Darwinism had something there wouldn't be ID.
Yet when asked to show how it would work, every IDist has ducked the question I’ve asked.
You haven't asked anything relevant to ID. If you ever do I a sure someone will respond.
Simply, how would you do it?
By figuring out what was required and then designing it.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Look Carpathian, your ignorance doesn’t phase ID. If you want to get rid of ID then go out and find support for an alternative.
LOL! ID is supposed to be the alternative to "Darwinism" ! Yet when asked to show how it would work, every IDist has ducked the question I've asked. Simply, how would you do it? If any IDist had actually thought about it, he would have the answer at his finger tips. Since no one has answered the question, I have to assume no IDist has considered it. When you do, you'll find its impossible.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian- those organisms and their ability to reproduce is what requires an explanation in the first place. When evos claim that evolution works some way or another they always ignore the fact that they cannot account for anything to begin with.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Andre:
seal reproductive organs are not your friend… where did they come from? Did they just emerge? Evolved?
When I speak of sexual reproduction I am talking about the blending of the information contained in two different strings, not reproductive organs. This is life at a very basic level and is something that IDists should be addressing, i.e. the combining of two libraries of information. When IDists claim that bit by bit evolution doen't work, they completely ignore the combining of information. "CSI" changes rapidly when two organisms pool their DNA when creating the next generation.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
Can anyone show how ID would work?
Yes, ID works by first determining intelligent design exists and then studying it. If we listen to Carpathian we would wonder how we managed to design anything. We couldn't have designed cars as we didn't know all the environments they would be subject to. Look Carpathian, your ignorance doesn't phase ID. If you want to get rid of ID then go out and find support for an alternative.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
Sure there’s a mechanism and it’s called sexual reproduction.
Unfortunately for you your position cannot account for sexual reproduction. If you could then that would be enough to deal a fatal blow to ID.
Are these the two best arguments you could come up with for defending ID?
They are all that is required to respond to your childish strawmen. The designer of the universe does not have to be the designer of life on earth.
Of course he does.
Of course you are wrong. The designer of the engine doesn't have to also design the car.
Designing an Earth that doesn’t support life like ours would be an insurmountable barrier to alien designers.
How do you know? Show your work.
To say that Earth did not require fine-tuning destroys the fine-tuning argument.
Just because Earth requires fine-tuning doesn't mean the designer of the universe designed earth.
If on the other hand, there are many worlds that would support life like ours, then the “Privileged Planet” theory doesn’t fly.
That doesn't follow. If all those worlds have the same factors as us then the "Privileged Planet" is confirmed.Virgil Cain
July 9, 2015
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Can anyone show how ID would work? It is incredibly frustrating listening to ID proponents knock "Darwinism" and yet not have even superficially evaluated whether ID is possible. How do you know what to build? How do you make your "specification"? Do you have to release all of an eco-systems designs at once or are organisms introduced singly or in groups? These are all questions scientists who promote ID should ask since the first test a theory has to pass is that of its own proponents. If ID is not plausible, then it should be abandoned.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian seal reproductive organs are not your friend... where did they come from? Did they just emerge? Evolved?Andre
July 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
Cuz you say so. Cuz you say so.
Are these the two best arguments you could come up with for defending ID?
Carpathian: Many IDists have touched on the concept of fine-tuning which doesn’t work unless you’re the designer of the universe also. Virgil Cain: OK, so what? The designer of the universe does not have to be the designer of life on earth.
Of course he does. Designing an Earth that doesn't support life like ours would be an insurmountable barrier to alien designers. To say that Earth did not require fine-tuning destroys the fine-tuning argument. To say that the aliens searched and rejected billions of planets in the universe before coming to ours would not be feasible due to the fact the universe is only billions of years old and there would not be time enough to visit and study them all. If on the other hand, there are many worlds that would support life like ours, then the "Privileged Planet" theory doesn't fly.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
You don’t have a mechanism capable of producing CSI, bit-by-bit. So your tantrum is irrelevant.
Sure there's a mechanism and it's called sexual reproduction. A child of two parents might look more like one than the other, but they inherit "bit changes" from both parents. Here's two bit patterns: 1001011011011001 0011010110110110 The child will inherit a pattern that is a combination of bit fields from the parents which might look like this: 0011011010111101 Note that the difference in generations is not limited to 1 or 2 bits. Since physics is not random, some combinations will not prove survivable which means some combinations, those that can survive, will prove to be more likely in each generation.Carpathian
July 9, 2015
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Carpathian:
There is no mechanism for design.
Design is a mechanism.
There is no way of gathering information from a future environment that doesn’t exist yet.
Strawman
A specification can therefore not be written.
That doesn't follow.
ID cannot work without something as powerful as God.
Cuz you say so.
Many IDists have touched on the concept of fine-tuning which doesn’t work unless you’re the designer of the universe also.
OK, so what? The designer of the universe does not have to be the designer of life on earth.
Unless you can come up with a mechanism non-gods can use, ID is creationism.
Cuz you say so.
Show me how design can work.
Show us that you have an intelligence capable of grasping science. Unfortunately you have already dug a hole too deep for that. But nice hissy-fit tantrum.Virgil Cain
July 8, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
You don’t have a mechanism capable of producing CSI, bit-by-bit.
There is no mechanism for design. There is no way of gathering information from a future environment that doesn't exist yet. A specification can therefore not be written. There is no way of predicting what is going to happen unless you can see the future. ID cannot work without something as powerful as God. Many IDists have touched on the concept of fine-tuning which doesn't work unless you're the designer of the universe also. Unless you can come up with a mechanism non-gods can use, ID is creationism. Show me how design can work.Carpathian
July 8, 2015
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Carpathian:
1) Do any of you believe that aliens designed Adam and Eve?
It is possible.
2) Do any of you believe that aliens designed the “immaterial mind”?
They may have designed an immaterial mind.
Evolution and many other processes are “dynamic”.
ID is NOT anti-evolution. Unguided evolution cannot be modeled. Intelligent Design evolution can and has been.
Your CSI argument is irrelevant to a bit by bit build of “information”.
You don't have a mechanism capable of producing CSI, bit-by-bit. So your tantrum is irrelevant.Virgil Cain
July 8, 2015
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kairosfocus:
Carpathian, you just caught my eye. Kindly show a significant case of functionally specific complex organisation and/or information beyond 500 – 1,000 bits, that has been observed to come about spontaneously by blind chance and mechanical necessity.
Evolution and many other processes are "dynamic". Evolution is not the analogical role of a 2 billion sided set of dice. The Manhattan skyline did not appear intact overnight. Your CSI argument is irrelevant to a bit by bit build of "information".Carpathian
July 8, 2015
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Virgil Cain and anyone who believes that aliens designed life on Earth, Here's some questions for everyone: 1) Do any of you believe that aliens designed Adam and Eve? 2) Do any of you believe that aliens designed the "immaterial mind"?Carpathian
July 8, 2015
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Carpathian, you just caught my eye. Kindly show a significant case of functionally specific complex organisation and/or information beyond 500 - 1,000 bits, that has been observed to come about spontaneously by blind chance and mechanical necessity. You cannot, for the simple reason that the blind, needle in haystack serch implied by config spaces of 3.27*10^150 - 1.07*10^301 or more are so big that the atomic and temporal resources of our sol system or the observed cosmos would be fruitlessly exhausted in a search that stands to a haystack comparably thick as our galaxy, at the low end. FSCO/I -- on trillions of cases in point -- is a reliable sign of design as cause, but obviously a very unwelcome one. KFkairosfocus
July 7, 2015
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Carpathian:
If 500 bits of “whatever” is the dividing line between an ID object and a non-ID object, does it or does it not apply to alien life?
It applies to everything. It is universal.
You yourself have suggested that life on Earth could have been designed by aliens but you don’t seem to understand the implications for ID.
What implications?
If aliens, whose own existence did not depend on ID,...
That is your strawman. We cannot say anything about them. We study what we have and what we have screams of intelligent design. If aliens intelligently designed life on earth then life on earth was intelligently designed and has to be studied as such in order to understand it. That said, the safe bet is that ET was also intelligently designed.Virgil Cain
July 7, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
If the CSI of aliens who designed life on Earth is below 500 bits, ID says intelligent design may not have been involved. LoL! If the level is below 500 bits then it isn’t CSI. CSI is 500 bits or more of SI.
I get the feeling you either want to duck this question or can't understand it. It's very simple. If 500 bits of "whatever" is the dividing line between an ID object and a non-ID object, does it or does it not apply to alien life? Before answering think about this: Alien life does not have to be investigated to answer questions about CSI. The question applies to CSI. Alien life is a possibility ID has put forward, it's not a strawman. You yourself have suggested that life on Earth could have been designed by aliens but you don't seem to understand the implications for ID. If aliens, whose own existence did not depend on ID, created life on Earth, then an intelligent designer and fine-tuning are not required for the existence of life on Earth since the "first cause", i.e. the aliens, did not require ID. Also, the existence of non-ID aliens is evidence that humanity could have also originated without ID since the aliens did. Again, this is about CSI, ID's main argument. Dembski and kairosfocus both refer to CSI for their arguments against "Darwinism". The alien designer argument is terribly flawed.Carpathian
July 7, 2015
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If aliens designed us then life on earth was the result of ID. Period, end of story.Virgil Cain
July 7, 2015
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Carpathian:
Then the aliens required an intelligent designer.
OK. So what? Our focus is life HERE. Only a fool would want to focus on the entity that designed us.Virgil Cain
July 7, 2015
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Carpathian:
ID’s biggest argument is CSI.
No, it isn't.
If the CSI of aliens who designed life on Earth is below 500 bits, ID says intelligent design may not have been involved.
LoL! If the level is below 500 bits then it isn't CSI. CSI is 500 bits or more of SI.
Q: Why would something with at least as much CSI as we contain, NOT need ID to explain their existence but ID is necessary to explain ours?
You are confused. We can't say anything about them until we can study them. We are focused on life on earth. Grow up and get an education already.
Why are the two values of CSI for humans and aliens treated differently?
We don't know anything about the aliens. As we have said you have other issues.
The fine-tuning argument of ID most definitely requires God.
No, it doesn't.
What other entity could determine the relationships that the the laws of physics would have to have?
QVirgil Cain
July 7, 2015
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Virgil Cain:
What does that mean? If aliens designed us then life on earth was the result of ID.
ID's biggest argument is CSI. If the CSI of aliens who designed life on Earth is below 500 bits, ID says intelligent design may not have been involved. Our DNA is in the millions of bits of information. If the aliens who designed us were more complex than we are, their DNA would probably be larger than ours, but at the least, it would not be much less. Q: Why would something with at least as much CSI as we contain, NOT need ID to explain their existence but ID is necessary to explain ours? Let threshold of design in informational bits, tdCSI = 500 Let human information, hCSI = 2,000,000 Let alien information, aCSI = 2,000,000 Why are the two values of CSI for humans and aliens treated differently?
ID doesn’t require God nor does it say anything about God. However if God designed and instructed first life to go forth and further populate the universe then obviously life on Earth was an intention of God.
The fine-tuning argument of ID most definitely requires God. What other entity could determine the relationships that the the laws of physics would have to have?Carpathian
July 7, 2015
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Carpathian:
Why attack me instead of addressing the argument?
The strawman argument? ;)
If the aliens that designed us didn’t need the help of ID...
What does that mean? If aliens designed us then life on earth was the result of ID.
In other words, if God is not needed for life on Earth, you can’t claim that life on Earth was an intention of God.
ID doesn't require God nor does it say anything about God. However if God designed and instructed first life to go forth and further populate the universe then obviously life on Earth was an intention of God.
An alien designer would be evidence against Genesis.
"Come flail away. Come flail away, come flail away with me, yeah"Virgil Cain
July 6, 2015
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Carpahtian: If the aliens that designed us didn’t need the help of ID... This makes no sense. If they designed us they needed the help of ID.Mung
July 6, 2015
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Virgil Cain: "They don’t have any evidence. They don’t have any testable hypotheses. They don’t have any models. They don’t have any science." What you talk about Virgil?! ....They think, therefore... it is! And FYI, it's called: Mind over Reality--a VERY precise science.... BTW. ....Pffff!!55rebel
July 6, 2015
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