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Endogenous Retroviruses in the Case for Common Ancestry

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We often hear the argument that evidence for common ancestry can also be interpreted as evidence of common design. Some years ago I made the argument that there was no way to discriminate between the two. The argument was countered (successfully IMO) by endogenous retroviruses (ERVs).

A bit of background about ERVs. Retroviruses replicate themselves by invading a host cell and inserting a package of viral genes into the host DNA along with promoters that cause the cell to express (translate and manufacture into proteins) those genes. The expression of those genes makes new virus particles and can compromise or kill the host cell in the process. The active viral gene package, after insertion, is called a provirus. Proviruses can be deactivated by a number of means becoming inert and leaving just the mostly intact but non-functional genes still in the host cell genome. Occasionally a germ cell can become infected and if it survives to become a new organism the deactivated provirus becomes what’s called an endogenous retrovirus (ERV for short) and gets passed along from parent to offspring down the lineage. Because the ERV serves no function it is not conserved by natural selection and is slowly mutilated by random mutations over millions of years until it is no longer recognizable as the strain of provirus it once was. There may be preferred insertion points in the genome for the RV genes but if there are there are a great many potential insertion points.

The case for common ancestry is made by finding the same strain of ERV inserted at the same place (loci) in the genomes of closely related species such as different primate species. The argument is that the RV infected a germ cell in a common ancestor and the ERV was then inherited by all the descendents. When the species splits or spawns a new species that is reproductively isolated each species has the ERV but, and here’s the key, random mutation changes each ERV differently. By comparing the differences in ERV sequences at the same loci in different species one can establish a rough date for the original infection in a common ancestor given a more or less average background rate of random mutation.

ERVs in various levels of decomposition make up some 8% of the human genome. Occasionally however an ERV is conscripted for some useful purpose and is conserved. It should be noted that human designers use domesticated RVs as delivery vehicles to insert foreign genes into genomes to create so-called GM (genetically modified) organisms like tomatoes with longer shelf lives and whatnot. Theoretically this can be used to distribute vaccines for various diseases. A GM banana for instance could carry genes that cause it to manufacture a vaccine for malaria. Eat a GM banana and you’re immunized against malaria. More significant to the case for intelligent design is that this is a mechanism a designer could use to modify genomes – introduce a virus into the population which inserts genes that cause the spawning of a new species. So if anyone asks about possible mechanisms a hypothetical designer could use to intervene and direct evolution that’s a good answer. Human designers are already doing it so it’s a proven mechanism. Morever a highly infectious retrovirus inserting genes that cause modification and speciation could convert entire populations into a new species in just one or several generations and at the same time cause the original species to become extinct virtually overnight. That fits wonderfully with the indisputable testimony of the fossil record which paints a picture of abrupt speciation, millions of years of little if any change in the new species, followed by an abrupt extinction. A mechanism for causing saltation of new species is thus shown.

Anyhow, back to the case for common ancestry. Recently in a private forum where others are concerned with intelligent design I brought up the case of ERVs as evidence supporting common ancestry vs. common design. If common design instead of common ancestry the designer is evidently using existing species in situ as the template for new species. If that’s the case there’s effectively no difference whatsoever between common design and common ancestry.

An objection was raised about how it was possible for a germ cell to become infected by an RV in the first place and secondly how could it survive the infection and go on to grow into a reproducing adult. As it turns out it probably isn’t very likely at all for sperm cells to be either infected with a provirus or survive the infection. Sperm are created and grow quickly into mature cells with a lifetime measured in days. Once mature they are stored behind a blood barrier which inhibits viral infection. They are also very active cells and even if infected would likely be hobbled enough to not be successful at fertilizing an egg. Egg cells however are a whole different story. In mammals a female is born with a lifetime supply of primary oocytes (immature egg cells) already created. There is also no blood barrier where they are stored in ovarian follicles. They are stored in a state of suspended animation or dormancy. Upon their creation in the developing embryo meiosis is halted in the first of two meiotic divisions at anaphase (IIRC) while still diploid (full compliment of 46 chromosomes). DNA replication and segregation into haploid germ cells is not completed until, beginning with puberty, one or a few resume meiosis and become mature egg cells ready to be fertilized. Thus a primary oocyte can hang around in a dormant state for 50 or more years and ostensibly be infected by an RV at any time. Because they are dormant gene expression is suppressed and even after a provirus is inserted into their DNA it isn’t likely to be expressed. The provirus remains dormant as well in other words. Because meoisis hasn’t progressed very far there is still a lot of DNA replication and shuffling (segregation and crossover) that goes on before the egg is mature. My conjecture is that the provirus is deactivated or very likely to be deactivated during the completion of meiosis (possibly from either segregation or crossover) so it is converted at once from provirus to endogenous retrovirus without ever having an opportunity to be expressed into new virus particles. This would handily explain how so many ERVs have found their way into primate genomes.

Comments
I wrote:
I think the arguments against it are equally formidable. I see something of a stalemate.
Patrick asked:
And what may those arguments be? If you're busy links are fine.
1. Common Descent is questioned for cellular evolution (See Woese: "The time has come for biology to go beyond the Doctrine of Common Descent." Front loaded ID could explain some of this, but why would a designer be constrained to front load a single invention? How far then can we go up the tree of life and saw away at common descent if common descent is not true for cells? If common descent of cellular evolution is doubted by a Darwinist like Woese, what else may fall? Now it is possible, dare I say probable there is a lot of common descent. I believe there is. Even modern YECs believe there is. The question is a matter of degree, not whether there is some common descent. It may well be Darwin argued against a straw man when he argued against "fixity of species" since there seemed to be the notion of change amonst creationists in Darwin's day...... A link I think is a good starting point is: Should We Stop Criticizing the Doctrine of Universal Common Ancestry? by Jonathan Wells and Is Common Descent an Axiom of Biology? by Paul Nelson I thought creationist Todd Wood did a good job pointing out evidence in favor of common ancestry of humans and chimps. I respect his honesty and I think creationists will do well to acknowledge the issues Wood raises. I think it appropriate to give the scientific method a chance to resolve the issue eventually. I don't think either side of the issue has a slam dunk case. I hope both sides will exercise mutual respect, especially under the big tent. And on another note, I'm skeptical of mainstream paleontology, cosmology, and paleo geology. These fields are infested with speculation and pseudoscience. The fields of science I have regard for are opreational scientific disciplines from which we have modern medicine and modern technologies. I consider these trustworthy scieces. After all, we have entrusted our lives to these sciences.scordova
May 15, 2007
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great_ape, Thank you for all the effort and I for one appreciate the effort to make this understandable for those us that are not knowledgeable in micro-biology. I agree that the data points very strongly to common descent. But does any of this data point to speciation by any particular mechanism? Does any of this for example, show how the chimp and the human lines could have formed or does it just show that they seemed to have a common ancestor at one point in time and how they diverged and formed different characteristics is still at best a guess.jerry
May 15, 2007
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...is another paper correlating DNA structure to insertion sites --pk4paul What must be asked here is how common is that targeted DNA structure? If it is ubiquitous in the genome, as is often the case, then insertions are still "random" among those distributed locations. It's just a matter of total target space available for insertion. If the target space is large enough, then the sort of nonrandomness you're addressing is unimportant. It simply slightly raises the probability of homoplasy (i.e. sameness that is not due to ancestry)due to two insertions hitting the same spot, but the extent it does so can be empirically evaluated and is typically found to be minimal. In sum, several of you have discovered valid biological issues related to using ERVS/SINES/LINES as markers, but, when understood in their appropriate context, there is nothing here that even remotely detracts from the weight of the argument for common descent, as Davescot lays it out in the top post. If I find time, I will try to write up the best argument possible against the inference of common descent based on ERVs and the like. I'd draw upon all the nasty details and loose threads I'm privy to. I'll invoke nonrandom insertions, etc. But--here's the kicker--I'd be obliged to *also* have a coherent explanation of the existing data concerning insertion states and their distribution among related species. I predict that any such argument I could make, however sophisticated, would come across as patently absurd to anyone reasonably intelligent reader, given the number of awkward contortions that would have to be made to explain the data we have accumulated. Compared to the absurdities that would need be invoked to make a non-common descent scenario workable, the minor caveats discussed above about using ERVs as markers are utterly insignificant.great_ape
May 15, 2007
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Population genetics is based on random mutations.--PaV Not so. Population genetics is based on the behavior of allele/character states in populations. These alleles can be neutral, nearly neutral, deleterious, or beneficial. These alleles can be introduced into the population by random mutation, migration, or even transgenics. Doesn't matter.great_ape
May 15, 2007
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Why treat them the same? --PaV Because the essential feature of the virus/SINE/LINE that is in question and relevant for inferring common ancestry and phylogeny is the presence/absence of the insertion. That is the allelic state. As I mentioned before, some of these elements indeed have a nonrandom insertion process, but the type of randomness involved is almost always benign for the purposes we're discussing here (common ancestry, phylogenetics). It technical terms, homoplasy levels are minimal, and thus they make even better markers than nucleotide changes in many cases. The most frequent non-randomness associated with viruses/mobile DNA is the targeting a short stretch of DNA (e.g. TTAAA) or gc-richness or AT-richness, or the targeting of generally open/active chromatin states. Once it inserts, it becomes an allelic character, and whether neutral or deleterious, it behaves very much like a SNP, microdeletion, etc, in population genetics. There are some minor differences in their propensity for recombination with other such sequences, and for gene conversion, and they are more likely to be deleterious because they're a bulky introduction to the local chromatin. In short, for all practical purposes, you can treat them the same in population genetics. The ways in which they are not the same do not undercut their utility. This is coming from someone whose used these as alleles in peer-reviewed population genetics papers.great_ape
May 15, 2007
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Identification of insertion hot spots for non-LTR retrotransposons: computational and biochemical application to Entamoeba histolytica is another paper correlating DNA structure to insertion sites. Different parameters that probed structural, thermodynamic or nucleosome positioning features were employed in our computational analysis of target site sequences in order to detect unique features, which may be recognized by the invading retrotransposon (Table 2). This analysis showed that DNA structure is likely to be important for target site selection in many retrotransposons, although, of the features tested, none were common to insertion sites of elements in all genomes. The presence of unique DNA structure at insertion sites appears to hold both for site-specific and dispersed non-LTR elements. Similar observations with DNA transposons show that the requirement for specific DNA structure at the target site may be a common feature. The bacterial transposon Tn7 (35) and the D.melanogaster P element (25) are known to recognize optimal DNA structures, rather than specific sequences, for preferential insertion.pk4_paul
May 15, 2007
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"Don't let the fact that it's a virus (or LINE/SINE/etc) confuse you; it still boils down to basic population genetics. Just replace A/a alleles with INserted/uninserted alleles and you can largely treat them the same in how they respond to drift, selection, etc." The insertion of the ERV is non-random. Population genetics is based on random mutations. How can the same phenomena explain both situations? These viruses are considered selectively neutral, so how does selection have anything to do with it? And I don't think what happens to an allele is the same as what happens to ERV's since SNP's, simple mutations, can be enough to turn a gene on or off, hence phylogenetic expression; whereas SNP's only cause deterioration of the original sequences, which are themselves extrachromosomal and thus have no way to effect phylogenetic expression. These are separate worlds. Why treat them the same?PaV
May 14, 2007
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short on time, but a few points: The high frequency of these events casts doubt on the accuracy of integration time estimates based only on divergence between retroelement LTRs. --abstract cited by PaV LTR divergence (i.e. the amount of mutations accumulated in the regions that were identical upon insertion) serves only as one means to date the insert. The presence/absence of the virus across species is the most important bit of information in forming a phylogeny and inferring common ancestry. Dating the insert via LTR divergence is just added corroborating information. So undermining the reliability of dating via LTR divergence--not that I think this article does that totally--does not undermine the inference of phylogenies and common ancestry itself. Although independent insertions at the same locus may be rare, SINE insertions are not homoplasy-free phylogenetic markers. I remember when this paper initially came out. Its point was well-taken; there are some rare regions of mammalian genomes that appear particularly receptive to mobile element inserts. Subsequent work has shown that the level of homoplasy (i.e. non-ancestral identify) arising from these or other such processes is actually quite low. Otherwise phylogenies based on SINE inserts would be incongruous with those obtained by means of nucleotide divergence. This has not proven to be the case; they are quite consistent. See, for example, Alu elements and hominid phylogenetics Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2003 Oct 28;100(22):12787-91 Overall, there are some caveats in analyzing viral/SINE inserts that would make one refrain from being overly confident in an inference made from any single SINE/virus insert. But the point I think some of you are missing is these studies are generally done with several inserts. And common ancestry is the only (non-contorted/non-adhoc) way to make sense out of what the collective data are saying. I wish I had more time to clear up some of the confusion concerning population fixation, etc, regarding viral insertions. Don't let the fact that it's a virus (or LINE/SINE/etc) confuse you; it still boils down to basic population genetics. Just replace A/a alleles with INserted/uninserted alleles and you can largely treat them the same in how they respond to drift, selection, etc. Remember, though, that only viral insertions occurring in the germline are players in this process. Jerry, I'm not sure if males or female germ cells are more subject to viral inserts. Males are more prone to mutations in general, and there's evidence from the LINE/SINE world that suggests more more insertion activity. Not sure about the ERVs and "wild viruses" though.great_ape
May 14, 2007
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An Ancient Retrovirus-like Element Contains Hot Spots for SINE Insertion might be worth a look. Vertebrate retrotransposons have been used extensively for phylogenetic analyses and studies of molecular evolution. Information can be obtained from specific inserts either by comparing sequence differences that have accumulated over time in orthologous copies of that insert or by determining the presence or absence of that specific element at a particular site. The presence of specific copies has been deemed to be an essentially homoplasy-free phylogenetic character because the probability of multiple independent insertions into any one site has been believed to be nil. Mys elements are a type of LTR-containing retrotransposon present in Sigmodontine rodents. In this study we have shown that one particular insert, mys-9, is an extremely old insert present in multiple species of the genus Peromyscus. We have found that different copies of this insert show a surprising range of sizes, due primarily to a continuing series of SINE (short interspersed element) insertions into this locus. We have identified two hot spots for SINE insertion within mys-9 and at each hot spot have found that two independent SINE insertions have occurred at identical sites. These results have major repercussions for phylogenetic analyses based on SINE insertions, indicating the need for caution when one concludes that the existence of a SINE at a specific locus in multiple individuals is indicative of common ancestry. Although independent insertions at the same locus may be rare, SINE insertions are not homoplasy-free phylogenetic markers.pk4_paul
May 14, 2007
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Here's another interesting abstract, which makes me think there's nothing to really demonstrate here (read the last sentence): ABSTRACT HERV elements make up a significant fraction of the human genome and, as interspersed repetitiveelements, have the capacity to provide substrates for ectopic recombination and gene conversion events. To understand the extent to which these events occur and gain further insight into the complex evolutionary history of these elements in our genome, we undertook a phylogenetic study of the long terminal repeat sequences of 15 HERV-K(HML-2) elements in various primate species. This family of human endogenous retroviruses first entered the primate genome between 35 and 45 million years ago. Throughout primate evolution, these elements have undergone bursts of amplification. From this analysis, which is the largestscale study of HERV sequence dynamics during primate evolution to date, we were able to detect intraelement gene conversion and recombination at five HERV-K loci. We also found evidence for replacement of an ancient element by another HERV-K provirus, apparently reflecting an occurrence of retroviral integration by homologous recombination. The high frequency of these events casts doubt on the accuracy of integration time estimates based only on divergence between retroelement LTRs. The paper is : http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/171/3/1183 (P.S., what's the code for inserting html addresses?) < a href="url.com" > hotlink text < /a > remove spaces between <>PaV
May 14, 2007
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I was looking around and found this from a 1999 paper. It is of interest based on the discussions we've been having: "RESULTS AND DISCUSSION Building Phylogenetic Trees from ERV LTR Sequences Endogenous retrovirus loci provide no less than three sources of phylogenetic signal, which can be used in complementary fashion to obtain much more information than simple distance estimates of homologous sequences. First, the distribution of provirus-containing loci among taxa dates the nsertion. Given the size of vertebrate genomes (.1 3 109 bp) and the random nature of retroviral integration (22, 23), multiple integrations (and subsequent fixation) of ERV loci at precisely the same location are highly unlikely (24). Therefore, an ERV locus shared by two or more species is descended from a single integration event and is proof that the species share a common ancestor into whose germ line the original integration took place (14). Furthermore, integrated proviruses are extremely stable: there is no mechanism for removing proviruses precisely from the genome, without leaving behind a solo LTR or deleting chromosomal DNA. The distribution of an ERV among related species also reflects the age of the provirus: older loci are found among widely divergent species, whereas younger proviruses are limited to more closely related species. In theory, the species distribution of a set of known integration sites can be used to construct phylogenetic trees in a manner similar to restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP)analysis. Second, as with other sequence-based phylogenetic analyses, mutations in a provirus that have accumulated since the divergence of the species provide an estimate of the genetic distance between the species. Because, for any given provirus, it is highly unlikely that there will be selection for or against any specific sequence, it is safe to assume that the rate of accumulation of mutations approximates the rate of their occurrence, with appropriate corrections for reversion. Analysis of closely related proviruses integrated at different sites should also reveal regional differences in mutation rates. Third, sequence divergence between the LTRs at the ends of a given provirus provides an important and unique source of phylogenetic information. The LTRs are created during reverse transcription to regenerate cis-acting elements required for integration and transcription. Because of the mechanism of reverse transcription, the two LTRs must be identical at the time of integration, even if they differed in the precursor provirus (Fig. 1A).Over time, they will diverge in sequence because of substitutions, insertions, and deletions acquired during cellular DNA replication. Although it has been noted that the divergence between the two LTRs of an ERV can serve as a molecular clock (8, 15, 18, 25), there are no reported prior attempts to utilize the LTRs of individual ERV loci as a source of phylogenetic signal. Assuming that the LTRs of an ERV are evolving independently, at approximately the same rate, and in the absence of rearrangement events, a phylogenetic tree containing 5' and 3' LTRs derived from the same ERV locus is predicted to have a topology similar to that depicted in Fig. 1B. The most useful feature of the predicted tree is the separate clustering of the 5' and the 3' LTRs. The node joining the 5' and 3' LTR clusters must be the deepest within the ingroup, since it represents thetime of integration, when the two LTRs were identical. Furthermore, both clusters are predicted to have similar branching patterns as determined by the phylogenetic history of the host species, with similar branch lengths. Thus, each tree displays two estimates of host phylogeny, both of which are derived from the evolution of an initially identical sequence (compare the 5' LTR and 3' LTR clusters in Fig. 1B). As we shall see, deviation of actual trees from this prediction provides a powerful means of testing the assumptions and detecting events other than neutral accumulation of mutations in the evolutionary history of a species." The paper's address is : http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/96/18/10254.pdfPaV
May 14, 2007
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In light of the developing discussion on this page, I'll repeat my advice from an earlier comment:
...At the moment, I'd say it is better to be cautious when using ERVs as evidence [for] anything, since we are just beginning to understand their function and guess at their history.
Atom
May 14, 2007
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jerry: "It seems like we may be discussing some small sample sizes and generalizing or then again maybe we are not." I'm just stumbling through all of this as well. I have the very same question in my mind about how much is actually known species wide. That's what's so hard in trying to figure out the mechanism, since we really don't know if it's "fixed" throughout species or not. Is this spreading through "neutral drift", as Bob is suggesting, or is the insertion mechanism effectively the same as "fixation." DaveScot: "It seems like the whole genome comparison would be superior as there should be a whole lot more correspondence in the region than just flanks of ERV LTRs." I agree with you. It feels like we're flying blind without whole genome comparisons.PaV
May 14, 2007
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I was looking for the basis of the same ERVs found at the same loci in different primates and found the following to be the basis for most of it: Differences in HERV-K LTR insertions in orthologous loci of humans and great apes. Unfortunately I don't have access to the entire article but do have some questions. The common loci were established using primers that contained flanking sequences to ERV LTRs. First question: how was it determined that the flanking sequences weren't part of that particular strain of provirus and second how was it determined that the flanking sequences weren't preferred insertion sites that caused the same virus to infect both species at the same site instead of infecting a common ancestor? ERVs are known to cross the species barrier so the integrity of common loci inference is critical and can't be due to preferred insertion sites. The answer might be in the body of the paper. I don't have a problem with fixation of the provirus as I think natural selection is greatly overrated in its ability to reward the more fit allele over the neutral one - there's more luck to what gets fixed than anything else. Natural selection is far better at killing individuals harboring harmful mutations than it is rewarding those with slightly beneficial mutations. What it does more than anything else is conserve the species within fixed bounds (largely cosmetic and scale changes) typical of the species' range but not radically alter it outside those bounds. I'm still a saltationist and the modern synthesis just can't plausibly explain saltation. Also, is there anything more recent establishing common loci for ERVs based upon actual whole genome sequence comparison of human and chimp (since both were completed after the publication date of this paper) rather than establishing it by primer sequences? It seems like the whole genome comparison would be superior as there should be a whole lot more correspondence in the region than just flanks of ERV LTRs. DaveScot
May 14, 2007
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matthew I read the referenced paper and don't see where it says the retrovirus restriction factors are generated from the expression of endogenous retrovirus genes. http://www.pnas.org/cgi/reprint/101/29/10774DaveScot
May 14, 2007
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Bob, PaV, I have some questions because it seems like there is a lot of assumptions going on with ERVs and other DNA sequences that are supposedly non-functional and common across the species. I believe there is only one human genome, from a mixture of 5-6 people and only one chimp genome. So I assume that there are several hundred (maybe thousands?) of ERV sequences resting insides introns that are common between this one genome of each. And that is what the basis for all these discussions. I also assume there are thousands of other ERV's that exist in each species and do not match up. Also since we have only one genome, it is hard to know if any of these ERV's are consistent across all humans and chimps unless someone is doing research on particular parts of the genome of each species for this phenomena. It would seem a likely research effort would be to try to take certain parts of the genome that contain these ERV's and see if they are present in people who have been isolated for several thousand years such as people from New Guinea or the Amazon rain forrest. Is anything like this being done? It seems like we may be discussing some small sample sizes and generalizing or then again maybe we are not. Also a related topic is how does an ERV make it into the genome. Is it through the female or the male or through both? Does the virus insert itself into the egg or sperm and then somehow get neutered by ending up in an intron. If so then this would have had to have happened a very large number of times for so many ERV's to make it through the genetics filter into the entire population. If there is a thousand ERV's common to the chimp and human then because of the large population sizes it would mean tens of millions/billions insertion events to get to a thousand making it into the entire genome. Is there any understandable discussion of all this? Thanks.jerry
May 14, 2007
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DaveScot I just happened to read this: http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/junkdna.php "It was assumed that retroviral sequences in human DNA represented leftover genes from infection of retroviruses. However, a new study demonstrates that these sequences actually block the infection of human cells with certain retroviruses (70). So, now these sequences seem to posses a vital function." 70. Hatziioannou, T., D. Perez-Caballero, A. Yang, S. Cowan and P. D. Bieniasz. 2004. Retrovirus resistance factors Ref1 and Lv1 are species-specific variants of TRIM5. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 101:10774-10779.MatthewTan
May 14, 2007
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PaV - I would expect fixation because I know that 0.00001 is not the same as zero. So that, although most mutations do go extinct, a small proportion go to fixation. Indeed, the rate of substitution is independent of (effective) population size, because the rate of fixation is 1/2N, but the rate of mutation in a population is proportional to 2N (because the rate per individual is constant across individuals: actually, we only need a slightly weaker assumption). Therefore, we expect to see some neutrally fixed alleles in populations. It may take a long time, because the rates are low, but evolution has that time (well, unless you're a YEC :-)). BobBob O'H
May 14, 2007
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Bob, I'm already fairly familiar with population genetics. What you're arguing here is that this ERV ("allele") will become fixed simply through neutral drift. But if the probability of becoming extinct is .99999, and its probability of becoming fixed is 0.00001, and if single mutational events only produce a deterioration of the allele---IOW, simple mutational events can't "produce" the form of any ERV, only a corruption of it---then why would you expect fixation? Simple stochastic variations---which is the only thing we can presume since the ERV is at most selectively neutral---should bring about extinction, not fixation. How do you see a way around this?PaV
May 14, 2007
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PaV - I agree that we don't need new mutations. We can just assume that, once the ERV has inserted, it just sits there in the genome. Then, to ask whether it fixes, we have to ask how its frequency will change. This is precisely the sort of question population genetics asks. The reason we need population genetics for this is because it gives us the framework for thinking about the problem. I would honestly have to suggest that you learn some (John Maynard Smith's textbook "Evolutionary Genetics" is a good start). Even if you're going to disagree with the some of the conclusions, it helps all round if you know and understand the basics of the subject. BobBob O'H
May 13, 2007
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Bob: "No, it assumes it (by assuming no mutation)." But we don't need "mutations" here. The ERV is already in place. Since we're dealing with a virus that has reverse transcriptase, thus directly inserting itself into the genome, and since viruses can replicate and so can be present in substantial numbers in a particular oocyte, I just don't see how population genetics applies here. I think my analysis in #62 is more applicable here. Frankly, it's very hard to visualize what's actually happening here.PaV
May 13, 2007
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Doesn't the Hardy-Weinberg Law say that in an interbreeding population the total number of alleles stays the same from one generation to another?
No, it assumes it (by assuming no mutation). It also assumes an infinite population size, so that 1/2N=0. BobBob O'H
May 13, 2007
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Bob O'H: "Suppose there is a new mutation/insertion of ERV, and that this creates a new allele which is neutral. Then there is one copy. The individual carrying the copy will (try to) reproduce, so in the next generation there will be some copies. It may be that there are none, or one, or two, etc. The main point is that the number will be random, and not related to presence of the new allele (because it is neutral)." Doesn't the Hardy-Weinberg Law say that in an interbreeding population the total number of alleles stays the same from one generation to another? So how does the frequency of the EVR increase from generation to generation unless the EVR itself reproduces and reinserts itself, or if another exogenouse retrovirus infects an oocyte of another member of the interbreeding population?PaV
May 13, 2007
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Well, there would have to be 2N “hits” for fixation, rather than extinction, to take place.
No, you have forgotten that living organisms reproduce. Suppose there is a new mutation/insertion of ERV, and that this creates a new allele which is neutral. Then there is one copy. The individual carrying the copy will (try to) reproduce, so in the next generation there will be some copies. It may be that there are none, or one, or two, etc. The main point is that the number will be random, and not related to presence of the new allele (because it is neutral). If there are no copies, then the allele goes extinct. If there are more than one, then the frequency has increased. If there is only one, then the frequency remains the same. In the next generation, the same process occurs, with every individual trying to reproduce, and passing on their alleles. Hence, there is a chance that the frequency will increase again. This process will repeat, and so there is a chance that the allele will eventually increase to a frequency of 1 (i.e. becomes fixed). Note that no mutation is needed for fixation, after the first mutation event: fixation occurs simply by random changes in the allele frequency. That the probability of fixation is 1/2N is simply because there are 2N individuals, and the allele is neutral. For me the most elegant proof of this is to notice that neutrality means that the expected frequency in the next generation is equal to the present frequency (if you like, if you could repeat the process a lot of times, then the average over the replicates would equal the current frequency). This expected frequency carries forward, so the expected frequency 10, 20, 3000 generations hence is equal to the current frequency. Now, we know that fixation is inevitable in a finite population (ignoring recurrent mutations: we're just dealing with drift here), so at fixation the expected frequency must still be the current frequency. This can only happen if the probability of a frequency of 1 is the current frequency, and the probability of a frequency of 0 is one minus the current frequency. So, when a mutation event occurs, the current frequency of the allele is 1/2N (where N is the number of individuals, and the assumption is that they are diploid). Hence this must be the probability of fixation. The short, technical, form of this argument is "it's a Martingale with absorbing boundaries". BobBob O'H
May 13, 2007
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As I've thought these numbers over, it seems we need to throw out population genetics here. "Fixation" means something entirely different here. Since the insertion takes place in the oocyte, and, if I'm not mistaken, the exogenous becomes endogenous immediately, then fixation is the same as insertion. IOW, the probability of fixation is one. There seems to be two options when it comes to these insertions: (1) the insertions happen at random locations within the genome, or (2) there are only specific sites within the genome where these insertions can take place. And there are three options when it comes to the frequency of insertions: (a) insertions can only take place slowly over time (many generations), or (b) many insertions can simultaneously take place within one generation, or, [c] insertions take place at all available sites all at once---in one generation. For the case, 1a, assuming that over time *different* viruses will attack the oocyte, we would end up with a variety of different viruses found in random locations. Starting with a common ancestor, no correlation would exist between separate lineages after a considerable amount of time has passed. For the case 1b, again assuming different viruses insert themselves over time, we would again find a variety of viruses (thought not as great) that are randomly located throughout the genome. However, starting with a common ancestor, even after a considerable lapse of time, some kind of correlation might be seen between the two divergent lineages. For the case 1c, using the same assumptions as before, even after considerable time, there would be a correlation between two divergent lineages, with the virus(es) being almost identical, and with the locations---though randomly dispersed throughout the genome---the same. The amount of "deterioration" of the virus (in the absence of conservative forces) would be larger the farther back the two lineages diverged, AND, the deterioration would be EQUAL for all homologous locations. For the case 2a, with the aforementioned assumptions, then for two divergent lineages we would see, first, in terms of the location of these viruses throughout the genomes of these separated lineages, we would see a pattern of the locations that would appear, when a small amount of time separates the lineages, to be somewhat at random as regards the two lineages, but which would appear to have a greater and greater locational similarity as the amount of lapse time increased since the common ancestor. So, after a fair amount of time, we would likely see locations that are similar between the two, but with viruses that are somewhat different, and which have different degrees of "deterioration". For case 2b(same assumptions), after a very short period of time, virus locations would match up well between the two lineages, and the viruses and virus locations would match up well. The amount of divergence in terms of the types of viruses would be small. Over longer periods of time, these correlations would still hold up, but we would likely see a, more or less, uniform rate of "deterioration". For case 2c (same assumptions), we would see the same as 2b, but with more uniformity in the types of viruses found at particular locations, and with more uniformity in the amount of "deterioration." From what little I've read about ERV's, which is mostly from the posts here, my hunch is that we're dealing with case 2a, simply because it sounds like we're dealing with locations that seem to match up, and even viruses that are the same and are also found at the same locations; and....the amount of deterioration is variable, almost highly variable. The implications of this being 2a is that we're dealing with a genome that has "specified" locations within it---which begs the question "What is specifying the structure, and how?"---and, as to the question of common ancestry, that species which have diverged recently will show very little "deterioration" and considerable correlation of locations and types of viruses at those locations; while species that have diverged over a considerable amount of time would show variable amounts of deterioration (all the way from "lots" to "very little"), a greater amount of variation of the types of virus that make up the ERV's, and a fair amount of variation in the locations of the viruses. My sense is that to nail down common ancestry between humans and chimps we would have to see a small amount of deterioration of the viruses, and a high correlation of both the types and locations of the viruses (based on there being little time lapsed between the common ancestor of both lineages). [Also, if "different" types of viruses, for whatever reasons, are limited in their ability to become incorporated in the oocytes, then the correlation between the "types" of viruses should be quite high.] I'm curious as to how that stands up to what is known of chimp/human ERV correlations.PaV
May 12, 2007
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great_ape: "gpuccio, the statistics roughly state that 1/2N such insertions (even if they are neutral), where N is the population size, will fix by chance alone. If a certain locus happens to receive an insertion, it has this small probability of fixation. With enough insertional hits, some insertions are bound to fix. Thus if species A is an ancestor to species B, B will share that same insertion at this locus." And the probability of extinction is 1-1/2N, which is quite high. Let's look a little closer. You say that "If a certain locus happens to receive an insertion, it has this small probability of fixation. With enough insertional hits, some insertions are bound to fix." Well, there would have to be 2N "hits" for fixation, rather than extinction, to take place. Now, there are about 3 x 10^9 loci, i.e., nucleotides, in the mammalian genome. For a population size of 100,000 (10^5), that means there needs to be 2 x 10^5 x 3 x 10^9 "hits" for ONE location to be "fixed" randomly. This number is 6 x 10^14, or almost 10^15 "hits". That's one million, billion "hits"---on the oocyte---for just ONE loci to become fixed. I'm not familiar with viruses, but this seems like an exceedingly large number of viruses---all of which have to find their way to an oocyte/germ line. Now, you say "hits"; but don't you really mean "insertions"? (I can't see how a potential insertion---if that's what you mean by a "hit"---can substitute for an actual insertion when dealing with the probability of fixation of a particular insertion) And, if we're talking about an oocyte, and talking about an exogenous retrovirus becoming "endogenous", then doesn't that have to happen all at once, i.e., in one generation? If that's so, then that means if we have 2N "insertions" at one loci, then ONE of those "insertions" will stick (become fixed). Conservatively, a virus is 2,000 nucleotides long. Again, for a population of 100,000, 2N insertions represents 2 x 10^5 x 2 x 10^3 nucleotides all together, or, 4 x 10^8 nucleotides, which is 10% of the mammalian genome. So that means in one generation, the most ERV that could be "fixed" is likely no more than 5, representing 50% of the genome. So, if we're talking about a "common ancestor", how could there be more than 5 ERV's in common between any two species? I think I'm being "objective" in all of this. I look forward to your response. And, finally, as was brought up in another post concerning ERV, if this insertion of, conservatively, 2,000 nucleotides occurs only in the oocyte, then how in the world does the DNA where this insertion occurs match up with the homologous DNA from the sperm DNA? If a one nucleotide difference can cause a frame-shift error, what will a 2,000 nucleotide shift cause? I don't think anyone has given an answer to this yet. Maybe you would want to comment though.PaV
May 12, 2007
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Dave, BFast, Thanks. I'm not fully understanding some issues. HIV is a recent virus to humans and chimps after the branching according to modern evolutionary thinking. How do comparative genomes stand up to scrutiny on this RV? Am I missing something? Why doesn't HIV render moot such arguments that RVs are solid proof of common ancestory if HIV became present only in 1900s? Doesn't it throw a wrench into the gears? That in fact RVs develop after branching and are shared? The nesting is in the virus and the variation depends upon species, but not sure how this can be counted up to common ancestory.Michaels7
May 12, 2007
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Mung, If you go to http://pirate.shu.edu/~jakistan/ there will be link to a pdf file with Stanley Jaki's books and pamphlets at the bottom. Then call 1-888-808-2882 which is the current telephone number for Real View Books. You can get a lot of his stuff there though some of his works are no longer in print. It took them a day to get back to me and about a 5 days to get the pamphlets and books.jerry
May 12, 2007
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I can be a bit thick at times, I'll admit. But can someone explain how using the presence of some marker to argue for a recent common origin of two species, and then turning around and using a recent common origin of two species to explain the presence of that marker is not an exercise in circular reasoning? Just trying to grasp the logic of "common descent" reasoning. Carry on.Mung
May 12, 2007
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By the way I just read Stanley Jaki's pamphlet on Intelligent Design and Darwin ...
Stanley L. Jaki is by far one of my favorite authors. His works are highly recommended to all. Where did you find this booklet? Is it available online?Mung
May 12, 2007
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