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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
To Born Again: So what exactly do all these near-death experiences demonstrate other than that people generally see what they expect to see based on their cultural predispositions? To nullasalus: Certainly it's possible that one tradition has a lock on the truth. However, I would ask you one question: How do you know which one? Obviously you believe that Christianity (which version?) is the one. but again, how do you know? What is the source of your certainty? For myself, I find it logically contradictory that an infinitely and unconditionally loving God would set it up so that only one tradition led back to Him, and based on the writings of the saints and sages of many traditions, that proposition is clearly false anyway. The idea that a child born and raised in the Arab world, for example, taught from infancy that the Koran is THE valid source of truth and who sincerely believes that teaching, would be denied communion with God because he or she didn't accept Jesus as his or her savior is, frankly, preposterous. This just is not the action of a loving God. It just isn't.Bruce David
February 13, 2011
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This is an interesting piece especially because I think that one of the more rational reasons for AGW and ToE denial ism is to avoid to talk about the consequences. And this fear of talking about the consequences is largely fueled by the impression that these are seen, even by a lot of the proponents, as inevitable while they actually are not.second opinion
February 13, 2011
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Since this thread has already spun wildly off-topic, I'll throw my two cents in. I'd agree with Bruce David that other religious traditions can have some truth. I'd be willing to go so far as to say that there are some core ideas in common between all of the well-known western monotheisms, as well as some eastern theistic religions as well. I have no problem with the idea that other faiths may have some truth to them, even if not the whole truth. Maybe they're out and out wrong on many things, but that doesn't mean they can't have some ideas correct. In fact, saying as much seems downright biblical, even pauline. That said, I reject the idea that Christianity has no clear teachings on the basis that 'Look, there's all these different claims about the teachings, so obviously none of them are clearly right'. Mere disagreement isn't sufficient to establish a lack of certainty on a topic. If I say 2+2=4, call me "provincial" or "narrowminded" all you like for the crime of ruling out the idea that 2+2=27. 2+2 does not = 27, and if it breaks someone's heart because to them it's very important that 2+2=27, that's really too bad.nullasalus
February 12, 2011
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Bruce David, I would be very careful if I were you to just how far you wandered away from Christ, for as appealing as other spiritual paths may seem, and the gloss of truth they may possess, the fact is that non-Judeo-Christian cultures have an extreme rarity of the extremely pleasant Near Death Experiences commonly reported in Judeo-Christian cultures. In fact Bruce David many of the Near Death Experiences reported in foreign cultures are downright terrifying: Near-Death Experiences in Thailand - Todd Murphy: Excerpt:The Light seems to be absent in Thai NDEs. So is the profound positive affect found in so many Western NDEs. The most common affect in our collection is negative. Unlike the negative affect in so many Western NDEs (cf. Greyson & Bush, 1992), that found in Thai NDEs (in all but case #11) has two recognizable causes. The first is fear of 'going'. The second is horror and fear of hell. It is worth noting that although half of our collection include seeing hell (cases 2,6,7,9,10) and being forced to witness horrific tortures, not one includes the NDEer having been subjected to these torments themselves. http://www.shaktitechnology.com/thaindes.htm A Comparative view of Tibetan and Western Near-Death Experiences by Lawrence Epstein University of Washington: Excerpt: Episode 5: The OBE systematically stresses the 'das-log's discomfiture, pain, disappointment, anger and disillusionment with others and with the moral worth of the world at large. The acquisition of a yid-lus and the ability to travel instantaneously are also found here. Episode 6: The 'das-log, usually accompanied by a supernatural guide, tours bar-do, where he witnesses painful scenes and meets others known to him. They give him messages to take back. Episode 7: The 'das-log witnesses trials in and tours hell. The crimes and punishments of others are explained to him. Tortured souls also ask him to take back messages to the living. (of note; the last part of this paper contains the full paper) http://www.case.edu/affil/tibet/booksAndPapers/neardeath.html?nw_view=1281960224&amp Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences in a Melanesian Society by Dorothy E. Counts: Excerpt: "When you were in your village you claimed to be an important man. But in this little place you have been eaten up by a knife, a dog, and a pig. And now fire will utterly destroy you." When the loudspeaker had finished, a fire blazed up and destroyed the remains. http://anthropology.uwaterloo.ca/WNB/NearDeath.html The Japanese find death a depressing experience - From an item by Peter Hadfield in the New Scientist (Nov. 30th 1991) Excerpt: A study in Japan shows that even in death the Japanese have an original way of looking at things. Instead of seeing 'tunnels of light' or having 'out of body' experiences, near-dead patients in Japanese hospitals tend to see rather less romantic images, according to researchers at Kyorin University. According to a report in the Mainichi newspaper, a group of doctors from Kyorin has spent the past year documenting the near-death experiences of 17 patients. They had all been resuscitated from comas caused by heart attacks, strokes, asthma or drug poisoning. All had shown minimal signs of life during the coma. Yoshia Hata, who led the team, said that eight of the 17 recalled 'dreams', many featuring rivers or ponds. Five of those patients had dreams which involved fear, pain and suffering. One 50-year-old asthmatic man said he had seen himself wade into a reservoir and do a handstand in the shallows. 'Then I walked out of the water and took some deep breaths. In the dream, I was repeating this over and over.' Another patient, a 73-year-old woman with cardiac arrest, saw a cloud filled with dead people. 'It was a dark, gloomy day. I was chanting sutras. I believed they could be saved if they chanted sutras, so that is what I was telling them to do.' Most of the group said they had never heard of Near-Death Experiences before. http://www.pureinsight.org/node/4 India Cross-cultural study by Dr. Ian Stevenson of the University of Virginia Medical School and Dr. Satwant Pasricha of the Institute of Mental Health and Neurosciences in Bangalore, India Excerpt: "Suddenly I saw two big pots of boiling water, although there was no fire, no firewood, and no fireplace. Then, the man pushed me with his hand and said, "You'd better hurry up and go back." When he touched me, I suddenly became aware of how hot his hand was. Then I realised why the pots were boiling. The heat was coming from his hands! When I regained consciousness, I had a severe burning sensation in my left arm." Mangal still had a mark on his left arm that he claims was a result of the burning. About a quarter of Dr Pasricha's interviewees reported such marks. http://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/06pas.htm Hindu Woman asks Jesus to Make Himself Real – HE DID!!! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKp8w1qR5XM Monk and Jesus Miracle Story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOLEW3heQwA here is the transcript: The Buddhist Monk and Jesus Excerpt: Monk “And then the man turned and he walked away, going toward the door. And when he got to the door, he turned back around, and he said, Jesus: ‘My name is Jesus. Monk: “Now, I had never heard that name before, so I didn’t know who Jesus was. He didn’t tell me anything else about himself, only his name. And then I think I must have fallen asleep again. But later on in the night, I felt warmth in my leg. By morning, I had feeling. And when the doctors came to prep me for surgery, my leg was healed.” http://www.asiastories.com/?p=7 Whereas here are the commonly reported Characteristics of Judeo-Christian NDE's Near Death Experience - The Tunnel - The Light - The Life Review - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4200200bornagain77
February 12, 2011
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To Matteo: No problem, I'll acknowledge it: Mine is not the only way to peace, it is just another way. What's your way? To Born Again: We've had discussions like this before. I do not deny that there is truth in the Bible, nor that Jesus rose from the dead. There are two points regarding this, however, that I would like to make: 1. Christians are often fond of declaring the scripture, by which they mean the Bible, is the only source of truth. However, it takes only a cursory reflection to realize that the "truth" in the Bible is extremely subject to one's interpretation of the words written therein. One has only to look at the many conflicting versions of Christian dogma, from Catholicism to liberal Christianity to the Missouri Synod to see the truth of this. Furthermore, much of Christian dogma was developed after (sometimes long after) Jesus' death by people no more qualified to discern truth than you or I. 2. The fact that Jesus died and resurrected in his physical body does not imply that there is no truth in the other traditions. One has only to read the poetry of Rumi or Hafiz, or Yogananda's marvelous Autobiography of a Yogi to see that it is possible to find God in non-Christian traditions.Bruce David
February 12, 2011
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The shroud of Turin is only 400 years old. "The Bible being unique in its correct prediction for the universe’s transcendent creation, as well as Historical/archeological verification, and precisely fulfilled prophecies, are compelling hard facts in and of themselves..." Wishful thinking, but there are no "hard facts" and no verification except by opinion. Any religion can claim hard facts and verification, but none have any. Everyone is welcome to their opinion, but opinions aren't proof. Faith is the basis for religious beliefs. Why not just admit it? Why play games and claim hard facts and verification? Why rely on bogus claims about a shroud? Be honest.Pachyaena
February 12, 2011
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Bruce David, this tidbit may help you see what sets Christianity so dramatically apart from other 'religious/spiritual' paths; The Bible being unique in its correct prediction for the universe's transcendent creation, as well as Historical/archeological verification, and precisely fulfilled prophecies, are compelling hard facts in and of themselves, to set the Bible apart from other religions; yet there is one more piece of solid physical evidence which bears powerful witness to the Bible’s validity and also sheds an undeniable light on God's deep personal commitment to man; The Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin clearly points out a fact that sets Christianity completely apart from all other religions of the world. The fact is that, as I've heard said by many preachers before, you can go to the graves of all the other founders of all the other major religions of the world and find the remains of a body, yet, as the Shroud of Turin stubbornly testifies despite many attempts to refute the Shroud’s authenticity, if you go to the tomb of Jesus you will not find the remains of a body because Jesus has risen from the dead. Burial places of all the other founders of the world religions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions Shroud of Turin in 3-D - The Holographic Experience - Face & Body - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/ The Center Of The Universe Is Life! - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Front and Back 3-D images - articles and videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Bruce David perhaps you can rationalize some false excuse for how the image formed on the Shroud, but, after thorough examination, I hold that something very extraordinary happened in the tomb of Jesus to form that image, and to make so many of Christ's followers willing to die horrid deaths for witnessing the fact that Jesus had in fact resurrected from the dead!bornagain77
February 11, 2011
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You Christians are SO provincial. A Buddhist could say the same thing, as could a Hindu or a Muslim. Christianity is NOT the only religion that claims to know the truth.
No, really? Who'd have thought it? Imagine the awfulness of having to carefully weigh and evaluate the alternatives. So one might as well not do it at all. It's all just too hard to figure out!
One of the major sources of the discord that is tearing the world apart today is the certainty on the part of so many people that theirs is the only path to truth. If each religious perspective could simply affirm the statement, “Ours is not the only way; ours is merely another way,” the world would instantly be healed of most of its troubles.
It sounds like you are certain that yours is the only path to peace. That's pretty damned dogmatic of you. But maybe you are actually willing to take your own medicine. If so, then you're really saying that yours is "just another way", and, well, thanks for sharing.Matteo
February 11, 2011
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Neil Rickert, I was quite clear that I would accept properly done opinion research surveying. No, you were quite clear about 'psychic powers', and having a wonderfully murky, magical view of 'evidence'. People like Coyne and PZ Myers are mainly teaching evolution to students who have enrolled in their class. Yeah Neil, that's what PZ Myers is primarily known for. Being a biology teacher at the University of Minnesota at Morris. His syllabus-formatting techniques rocketed him to the modest internet stardom he has today.nullasalus
February 11, 2011
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Your ace in the hole has been to insist that one would need psychic powers in order to make valid inferences about people’s motivations.
I was quite clear that I would accept properly done opinion research surveying. People like Coyne and PZ Myers are mainly teaching evolution to students who have enrolled in their class. They are not out in street marquees proselytizing for Darwinism. And sure, PZ also talks to groups of skeptics, but that's mostly preaching to the choir. You could perhaps claim that Dawkins and a few others are proselytizing for atheism, but your claim was about "many" rather than "few."Neil Rickert
February 11, 2011
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Neil Rickert, There’s no such implication. It is just a jumping to conclusions not supported by the evidence. There's plenty of evidence, Neil. I've laid some out, others have supplied some. You're under the typical internet-debater assumption that so long as you yourself say there is no evidence, or that the evidence provided 'isn't really evidence', that that's all you need. Sorry, it ain't the case. Your ace in the hole has been to insist that one would need psychic powers in order to make valid inferences about people's motivations. By all means, embrace that - but as I said previously, do it in another thread. I'm not interested in a debate about the obvious with someone hellbent on resisting reason and what amounts to common knowledge.nullasalus
February 11, 2011
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Neil R, your reading assignment
I have not read any of those books, mostly because I expect that I would find them tedious and boring. However, I did read Dawkins: "The Extended Phenotype." I did not find anything in that book suggesting that it was written with an ulterior motive of wanting people to become atheist.
These fellas attempt to use *science* in their anti-theistic arguments and wrote whole books on the subject.
That doesn't seem particularly relevant. You surely would not expect them to ignore what they consider a major objection to religion.
By implication, ...
There's no such implication. It is just a jumping to conclusions not supported by the evidence.Neil Rickert
February 11, 2011
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GCS: You said, "Only Christianity provides the ultimate answer to why that happens." You Christians are SO provincial. A Buddhist could say the same thing, as could a Hindu or a Muslim. Christianity is NOT the only religion that claims to know the truth. One of the major sources of the discord that is tearing the world apart today is the certainty on the part of so many people that theirs is the only path to truth. If each religious perspective could simply affirm the statement, "Ours is not the only way; ours is merely another way," the world would instantly be healed of most of its troubles.Bruce David
February 11, 2011
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Neil, you must be joking. You simply can't be serious in thinking that there's no evidence that many people use evolution as a means to bash religion. Besides the other names mentioned, have you ever read Pharyngula, Panda's Thumb, The Bathroom Wall, and After The Bar Closes? There are lots of blogs, and commenters on blogs, who constantly proselytize atheism and use evolution (and other aspects of science) as the basis for their arguments. Many of those people say that "science is silent on religious beliefs" but that's a crock. Science is far from silent on religious beliefs and many scientists and science supporters are clearly more interested in promoting atheism and bashing religion than they are in the positive advancement or promotion of good science. I actually consider myself an atheist when it comes to the Gods people have invented, but I'm agnostic when it comes to the existence of a creator and/or designer of some sort. One of the things that really bugs me about some atheists/scientists is that they try to hide the fact that they are much more AGAINST religion than they are FOR science. To them, science (or just the ToE) is simply a convenient weapon to use against religion, but of course they won't admit it. Atheists on blogs often accuse religious people of being dishonest, and of course some are, but those same atheists are often dishonest too, and won't admit their real motives. As far as reading minds is concerned, you might want to read the materials suggested by others, and the blogs I mentioned. No mind reading is required to see what the real motives of those people are. It would be real refreshing to see atheists/scientists being honest about their motives and stop playing games.Pachyaena
February 11, 2011
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Neil R, your reading assignment: The God Delusion -- R. Dawkins God is Not Great: The Case Against Religion -- C. Hitchens The Fallacy of Fine-Tuning: How the Universe is Not Designed for Humanity -- V. Stenger The End of Faith -- S. Harris Breaking the Spell -- D. Dennett These fellas attempt to use *science* in their anti-theistic arguments and wrote whole books on the subject. By implication, they are interested in people knowing about science in order to convince that atheism is correct. Please read those and report back.kornbelt888
February 11, 2011
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Neil, Thank you so much for demonstrating once again that the Christian world view is the one which explains the universe around us and how we react to it. You asked a question and information was given in response. In return you rejected that information and asked for more or different information. All through the exchange you have been able to find reasons to stick to your view while the persons answering have stuck to theirs. An outside observer really has to wonder if you are both in the same universe! Without worrying about who is right, consider the implication of what is happening. You are both looking at the exact same words/phenomena and finding totally different meaning in them. Why is that possible?? Only Christianity provides the ultimate answer to why that happens. Your answers are molded by your fundamental beliefs, the things you have faith in. God has given you free will and will NEVER overpower your fundamental beliefs with evidence. (If you are wrong about something then you may have to pay the consequences, but even negative consequences rarely force a person to change their beliefs.) If you are willing to have faith He will give you a fuller and deeper understanding. If you reject that offer of faith He will allow you to use the gift of your intellect to fashion anything you wish to believe. When I was baptized Catholic in 2001, the world did not changed. How I looked at the world had changed. With the gift of faith everything was so much clearer and understandable. Maybe some day you can experience the freedom and joy that gives. God Bless.GCS
February 11, 2011
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Null: The gun on this one had been smoking since 1880. As we may read in an October 13th, 1880 letter to Edward Bibbins Aveling (a physician, and Karl Marx's son- in- law), Charles Darwin went on record as follows: ______________________ >> . . . though I am a strong advocate for free thought [NB: free-thought is an old synonym for skepticism, agnosticism or atheism] on all subjects, yet it appears to me (whether rightly or wrongly) that direct arguments against christianity & theism produce hardly any effect on the public; & freedom of thought is best promoted by the gradual illumination of men’s minds, which follows from the advance of science. It has, therefore, been always my object to avoid writing on religion, & I have confined myself to science. I may, however, have been unduly biassed by the pain which it would give some members of my family [NB: especially his wife, Emma], if I aided in any way direct attacks on religion. >> _____________________ Next problem. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 11, 2011
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nullasalus (#15):
You asked me for evidence, Neil. Not certain proof.
Right. But you did not provide anything that I can recognize as evidence. I teach computer science. So I am wondering what diabolically evil ulterior motives you ascribe to me for that teaching.Neil Rickert
February 11, 2011
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HT to Pez. As if it had to be said-
In other words, religion is compatible with modern evolutionary biology (and indeed all of modern science) if the religion is effectively indistinguishable from atheism.1
The frequently made assertion that modern biology and the assumptions of the Judaeo-Christian tradition are fully compatible is false.2
Evolution is the greatest engine of atheism ever invented. Naturalistic evolution has clear consequences that Charles Darwin understood perfectly. 1) No gods worth having exist; 2) no life after death exists; 3) no ultimate foundation for ethics exists; 4) no ultimate meaning in life exists; and 5) human free will is nonexistent.3
As the creationists claim, belief in modern evolution makes atheists of people. One can have a religious view that is compatible with evolution only if the religious view is indistinguishable from atheism.4
click here for a hint:
‘Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.’ 5
Thank you for your honesty Will Provine. 1- Academe January 1987 pp.51-52 † 2-Evolutionary Progress (1988) p. 65 † 3- “Evolution: Free will and punishment and meaning in life” 1998 Darwin Day Keynote Address 1 2 † 4- No Free Will (1999) p.123 5- Provine, W.B., Origins Research 16(1), p.9, 1994.Joseph
February 11, 2011
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Neil Rickert, You made an assertion about what motivates people. You would need mind reading abilities to be able to observe that. We can estimate that with opinion research surveying, if done properly. But we cannot just observe it. You asked me for evidence, Neil. Not certain proof. If you want to walk down this road, why not go whole hog and demand evidence that beliefs exist, and point out how there are some philosophers who reject their existence? It's about as relevant. You asked me for evidence, I provided it easily. The evidence exists, is abundant, and is public. Speculate that maybe in their heart of hearts atheists don't believe this (maybe they aren't even atheists, right?), but a lack of certainty doesn't remove evidence from the table. I likewise claim no mind reading ability with Coyne, but I have read enough of what he writes to be extremely doubtful that your claim is correct with respect to what motivates his acceptance of evolution. But I said nothing about what 'motivates his acceptance of evolution'. I made the claim that evolution was seen as and used as a proselytizing tool by many atheists. I've provided evidence of that, in the form of Dennett's promotion of evolution (with himself specifically singling out religious belief as something the 'acid' eats through), what Provine claims is an immediate consequence of evolution, and Coyne's identification of evolution that has rejection of religious beliefs built into its very definition. Again, it's not a very groundbreaking claim on my part. Dive to hyperskepticism if you wish, but do it elsewhere. It's just not very interesting.nullasalus
February 10, 2011
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Oops, I misstated that. The point wasn't about their acceptance of evolution, but about their presumed desire for others to accept evolution. But my point still holds - you cannot infer that from their expressed opinions on religion.Neil Rickert
February 10, 2011
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You made an assertion about what motivates people. You would need mind reading abilities to be able to observe that. We can estimate that with opinion research surveying, if done properly. But we cannot just observe it. Your quote from Provine seems to not be relevant. Your claim was about what motivates people to accept evolutionary theory. Provine's statement was about what motivates his religious views. There is no obvious relation between the two. I don't know what motivates Dennett - I don't claim mind reading abilities, and I have not read much of what he writes on religion. I likewise claim no mind reading ability with Coyne, but I have read enough of what he writes to be extremely doubtful that your claim is correct with respect to what motivates his acceptance of evolution.Neil Rickert
February 10, 2011
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Neil Rickert, I asked you for clarification on what you were asking, because I was pretty surprised you'd need it. I'm not unwilling to provide it, if you're actually serious. But if you really need the obvious pointed out to you, hey, I'll do it. Will Provine: ‘Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear … There are no gods, no purposes, no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That’s the end for me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning to life, and no free will for humans, either.’ So for Provine, evolutionary biology constitutes a demonstration that there is no God, no design, etc. Daniel Dennett, of course, refers to Darwinism as the "universal acid" which dissolves various beliefs we have - and he singles out religious belief and belief in God (Darwin's Dangerous Idea; Darwin's assault on the cosmic pyramid). He's been pretty up front about this. And then there's Jerry Coyne making it clear what means when he talks about evolution, and thus getting people to accept it: While the Catholic church officially accepts evolution, it accepts theistic evolution, in which God guided the process and casually slipped an immortal soul into the hominin lineage. And theistic evolution, in which God has a role in the process, is not acceptance of evolution as we biologists understand it. So yes, the true biological view of evolution as a materialistic, unguided process is indeed at odds with most religions. So for Coyne, getting people to accept evolution is pretty much one and the same thing as getting them to ditch their religious beliefs. For him it's practically defined as such. I could go on, but this should be enough to show that yeah, there's evidence in abundance that evolution is seen as a tool for atheist apologetics, and hence that's why for some people there's interest in promoting acceptance of evolution in particular. It's not only a reasonable conclusion to draw, it's the most reasonable conclusion available (certainly versus 'atheists don't see evolution as having anything to do with getting people to reject theism or religious belief'). If you can't see this, that's okay. There's guys around here who deny causality and so on too. Nothing wrong with one more naive belief.nullasalus
February 10, 2011
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Okay, thanks. In that case, I shall take it to be something that you strongly believe, but for which you do not have one iota of supporting evidence.Neil Rickert
February 10, 2011
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Do you have any evidence at all to support this? Evidence for what? That evolution is seen by atheists as a proselytizing tool for atheism? Plenty of evidence for that. I can provide some evidence that there is, in fact, a sun in the sky as well if this is needed.nullasalus
February 10, 2011
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Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs.
Do you have any evidence at all to support this?Neil Rickert
February 10, 2011
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tragic mishap, I recall the east germany issue, which I thought was interesting. That does go some way towards adding to my central point here: You can assume AGW is true, and it can still be the case that given AGW-defusing proposal X is a bad idea, counterproductive, or hell - just plain dumb. Likewise, you can assume evolution is true, and still regard some of the "if evolution is true then..." conclusions as inane. That's the issue I want to draw attention to, and that I wonder if people sometimes miss.nullasalus
February 10, 2011
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Copenhagen failed largely because of a divide between rich and poor nations. The poorer nations were asking for money from the richer nations to "green" their economy, arguing that they had not been able to industrialize and emit their fair share of carbon before AGW and it wasn't fair that other nations had.tragic mishap
February 10, 2011
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#Base_yeartragic mishap
February 10, 2011
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Germany for one had its own reasons for pushing the Kyoto Protocol. If you'll recall Kyoto dictated that countries restrict their carbon emissions to 1990 levels. The catch is that the Soviet Union fell in 1991 and ushered in a major economic downturn in the former Soviet satellite republics of Eastern Europe as well as Russia itself. The emissions fell right along with the economy. So most of these Eastern European countries had naturally fallen below these levels and were only barely recovering by Kyoto. Germany of course had reunited East and West, and thus the 1990 carbon emissions levels of both East and West Germany combined were artificially high compared to unified Germany at the time of Kyoto in 1997. In other words, Germany, Russia and virtually all of the Eastern European countries were already in compliance with Kyoto or close to it, whereas most Western European nations and the United States had been growing and their emissions were growing with it. The carbon trading market was thus going to benefit these nations because they could sell their unused carbon credits to the richer Western nations who were way over and had no hope of genuinely cutting back. And of course international socialism was all for it because it provided a rationale for redistribution of wealth from rich countries to poor.tragic mishap
February 10, 2011
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