Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
Bruce David, I think humans are fallible and will miss the truth for a variety of reasons. That is why I was so interested in your slurry of truth statements. For instance, when someone states that it is absolutely correct that there are no standards by which to judge right and wrong, then I haplessly wonder what standard they used to make that jusgement - just crazy little things like that. In any case, if reason itself has a correlation to reality, which it must, then "no" it will never fail.Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed, As I re-read these comments, it seems that you have some idea that reason can be used correctly to arrive at truth, and when truth is not arrived at, the person has failed to use it correctly. If this is accurate, I would be interested to know if you have in mind some kind of criterion or methodology by which one can be sure that reason is used correctly.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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Participation is, of course, voluntary.Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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Stephenb@50: "Pantheism makes no sense at all. The Creator cannot also be his creation, just as an author cannot also be his book, just as an artist cannot also be his painting. That should be obvious." Christianity makes no sense at all. A supernatural being cannot create a universe out of nothing. A man cannot be his own father and a God all at the same time. Bodies do not get up and walk after they are dead. That should be obvious. Upright. As for Bruce David speaking with "delightful certainty", that is ironic coming from a member of a group that claim to know everything about what their God wants for us, including who we should have sexual relations with.zeroseven
February 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: I have always been talking about men and women using reason, not reason in some abstract Platonic realm. My point was originally to StephenB, who claimed that he arrived at his conclusions using reason. If you want to talk about reason in the abstract being infallible, I really have no comment on that. Reason always manifests through its use by human beings.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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And the historical example where reason failed yet man did not, is......what?Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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To GCS: The reference to a "dream state" was by way of analogy to try to explain how I see the nature of reality. It is God's dream, after all, and is the totality of the created world. That makes it pretty important in my eyes. I would also like to say that it is not true that I see nothing of value in Christianity. At the risk of vastly oversimplifying, I see two sides to Christianity: the "love" side and the "sin" side. I view the aspects of Christianity that emphasize love--God's love for us, ours for Him, and ours for each other as something I agree with and applaud. It is the whole Christian notion of sin with which I take issue. I believe that it is incorrect and damaging. It prevents people from seeing their own magnificence and veils us from understanding the true purpose of God's Creation.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: I tried to be careful regarding what I know of God by the use of phrases such as "in my view" and "I believe" where appropriate. I have done a lot of spiritual seeking in my life. I have studied Sufism in great depth, and Buddhism and Christianity to a lesser extent. I have had several spiritual teachers and have read many, many spiritually oriented books. I found things that made sense to me and things that didn't in all of that. However, when I finally was introduced to the Conversations with God books, my whole being said "Yes!" to nearly everything I read in them (when God was speaking). I found certainty there, and occasionally that certainty spills over inappropriately into my conversations with others on spiritual subjects. If I have done so here, I apologize. When I speak of God's attributes such as His unconditional love, I do so out of the assumption that we all agree on that. From there I try only to speak with certainty regarding logical consequences. For example, it contradicts the nature of unconditional love to lay down arbitrary rules and then punish one for breaking them, especially when that punishment lasts for all eternity. Such "love" is not unconditional, at least not as I understand the meaning. I didn't exactly say that reason has failed. What I said was that it has demonstrated itself to be fallible. As justification for that statement, I point to the history of Western philosophy, in which the vast majority of thinkers, all very smart guys, used reason to arrive at their conclusions. However, those conclusions were all different, and in the main contradicted each other. If reason were not fallible, they would all have reached the same conclusions, now wouldn't they.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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Good Afternoon, Good to see things continuing. It seems to me that this ongoing discussion continues to demonstrate that the Christian world view explains why we act the way we do. BA 77 is a Christian and acts like a Christian. Things we do have significance, they have eternal consequences. Therefore it is absolutely right for him to argue and try to persuade. However, why does Bruce David argue like a Christian? Why does he act as if this is all important. He himself said that our existance is only a dream state. I think the answer is obvious. All of us act like Christians because that is the way creation really is. God Bless All of You.GCS
February 15, 2011
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Bruce David, Stephen, forgive me for butting in here. Mr David you speak with delighful certainty, You know God this and you know God that. You seem to know how all works, even the roster of activies upon our death. In all of it, you did say one thing that is interesting however. You said that reason had failed. Crazily, I always thought that man failed reason and not the other way around. Rather like making a mistake, or choosing to do so - our fallible inheritance, as it were. Now I ask you this question not because I don't trust your word on the matter - particuilarly given the certainty on display. It's just that this is fascinating, and I would like to explore it further. Can you give me an example where reason has failed?Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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StephenB: In the first place, reason is notoriously fallible. One has only to look at the history of Western philosophy to see the truth of that. A whole lot of very smart men all used reason to arrive at contradictory conclusions. I don't trust reason BY ITSELF to give us any knowledge at all. The Sufis have a saying, "Knowledge is given and not acquired." To me this means that one finds the truth through one's inner knowing. It is actually revealed to our own inner eye, but one has to be patient, and one has to learn to distinguish the "still small voice" within from the rest of the chatter of our minds. I have found that real knowledge is a kind of seeing. Second, with regard to pantheism, my view is that creation is a dream in the mind of God. Of course, it is a conscious, lucid dream. The reality that we inhabit is like a virtual reality in which God acts analogously to the computer that controls the virtual environment. God imagines everything into existence out of his own creative intelligence. There is absolutely nothing self-contradictory about such a metaphysics. With respect to those who "don't want anything to do with God", all I can say is that one's attitudes on that score change dramatically after death. When we die, we remember Who We Really Are. This changes everything. Also, the place we go when we die is a place where among many other activities, we review our most recent life and prepare for the next one. Our spiritual advancement does not stop when we die, and this physical existence is not the only one we experience. Regarding the life of Jesus. I don't deny any of the historical facts that you mention. My quarrel is with the conclusions that subsequent church leaders and scholars have drawn with respect to what it all means. In my view they have created a theology based on fear designed to keep the laity in line and prevent them from thinking for themselves, which is contradictory to the very nature of God. As I have said before, God is not an entity who works through fear. God loves us unconditionally. He is our lover and our friend, and will never punish or condemn us. It would be like me punishing my hand for dropping a glass on the kitchen floor. Jesus said that he and the Father are One. I believe that Jesus came to show us by example what we all are, that we are ALL One with the Father. (Did he not refer to us as his "brethren", and didn't he say that the miracles he performed we would all do and more?) For God to punish us would be to punish a part of Himself for exercising the freedom that He granted that part. It would be insane, and God is not insane.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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Bruce David, though this poem is no where near the eloquence and clarity with which StephenB states the absurdity of your position, I find it somewhat relevant none-the-less: Ten Foot Tall and Bulletproof https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1ivh4Chvi0dL3UjBbqTknjFkn6hUvpTYaN0BZaVX0RUg Ten foot tall and bulletproof He lived by the bloody sword's edge Ten foot tall and bulletproof With the manners of a sledge To take by force, to have it all Were his only creed and call, Ten foot tall and bulletproof My oh my how hard they fall No love for life, no love to be Save the love he had for he Ten foot tall and bulletproof My oh my he could not see A need for God, A need for Jesus Despite his mother's plea Survival of the fittest and dog eat dog Or so he thought, thought he Thus, Ten foot tall and bulletproof Came to meet his appointed day With no clue of the fate For all of the hate That he had called his play Yes, Ten foot tall and bulletproof Without any slight delay Soon found out that the cost For all he had lost Was not in his own strength to pay Yes, Ten foot tall and bulletproof Despite his own mighty strength to prevail Soon found out without any doubt That he was in the mouth of hell!bornagain77
February 15, 2011
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---Bruce David: "I also am a pantheist, by the way. It’s the only belief that makes sense. God is All That Is. From what could He create other than Himself?" Pantheism makes no sense at all. The Creator cannot also be his creation, just as an author cannot also be his book, just as an artist cannot also be his painting. That should be obvious. ---You are so certain you know the truth, but in reality you are simply parroting back what you have been told." No, I have actually thought the matter through very carefully and weighed the theological claims in light of the first principles of right reason. On the other hand, you have not submitted your belief system to the same test. A changing Pantheistic God, for example, cannot be a perfect God and does not, therefore, deserve to be worshipped. It is you, therefore, who are parroting back what you have been told. ---"Personally, I find the Christian idea of God to be an oxymoron, self-contradictory. An unconditionally loving God who would condemn and punish anyone for anything (particularly for all eternity) is a contradiction (put in a correction, yes; set up consequences designed to allow someone the opportunity of making a more loving choice next time, yes; but condemn or punish, absolutely not.) You have yet to address the problem of where we put those who don't want anything to do with God? Why would God force people to be in heaven who don't want to be there? You are not facing the issue. People put themselves in hell by rejecting God, loving only themselves, and remaining steadfast in that decision. They have to be someplace, or in some state of existence, don't they? Where would you put them? You must reject reason at every turn to sustain your indefensible belief system. Anyone who denies the existence of evil is clearly out of touch with the real world. --"I’m sorry to be so heated about this, but the arrogance of people who are so certain that they know truth when all they are doing is regurgitating ancient folly tends to annoy me." You have it backwards. Christianity is a historical religion based on events that occurred in time/space/history. Jesus Christ really lived, really performed miracles, and really rose from the dead. Even his enemies admitted that the miracles occurred and even they could not account for the empty tomb. Those are all historical facts. Thus, I have a good logical reasons for believing what I believe. What logical reasons do you have for believing in Pantheism? You really don't have any. You can only marshal negative arguments--you don't believe in a God who punishes--you don't believe in evil--you don't believe in this or that. Those are not arguments in favor of pantheism. Those are misguided and erroneous arguments against Christianity.StephenB
February 15, 2011
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Dear StephenB, I don't burn books, even Why Evolution Is True. You regard [your interpretation of] Christian scripture as revelation. I regard Conversations with God as revelation. The parts of the books where God is speaking are directly from God, in my view. There is no authority other than our own inner knowing with which to make the distinction between what is true and what is not. Do you really expect that you can tell me what is true and I will accept your beliefs over my own inner conviction, my own certainty that I have encountered Truth? I also am a pantheist, by the way. It's the only belief that makes sense. God is All That Is. From what could He create other than Himself? You are so certain you know the truth, but in reality you are simply parroting back what you have been told. Personally, I find the Christian idea of God to be an oxymoron, self-contradictory. An unconditionally loving God who would condemn and punish anyone for anything (particularly for all eternity) is a contradiction (put in a correction, yes; set up consequences designed to allow someone the opportunity of making a more loving choice next time, yes; but condemn or punish, absolutely not.) I'm sorry to be so heated about this, but the arrogance of people who are so certain that they know truth when all they are doing is regurgitating ancient folly tends to annoy me.Bruce David
February 14, 2011
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---Bruce David: “At the very beginning he defines evil according to Augustine (as I remember) as a corruption of something good. This is a man-made definition. All concepts of evil are man-made.” Actually, there is a metaphysical definition of evil [privation of the good] and a moral definition [perversity of the will]. Both are sound definitions. You are conflating the linguistic definition of evil with the metaphysical reality of evil. Of course, Augustine’s [and Geisler’s] definition of evil is made up [all definitions are made up] but the reality that is being defined is not made up. What both men are saying, rightly, is that while evil has no substance [a mere parasite on the good] it is, nevertheless, real. ---The truth is that in God’s eyes there is no evil: The reason that we believe that there is evil is so that we may experience ourselves as good. The entire purpose of physical existence is for us to experience ourselves as God like (in His image and likeness), and in that process God also experiences Himself through us. You see, the problem is that a being can know it is good, but it can’t EXPERIENCE its goodness without the experience of its opposite. So we make up evil in order to experience good.” By your account, we can “experience ourselves as good” if we will only first believe what, for you, is a lie. On the contrary, we should believe in evil because it really exists, not because it facilitates this or that experience. Indeed, the truth is inseparable from the good. How could it be otherwise? In fact, most of us aren’t all that good anyway. Why should we "experience" ourselves as good if we aren’t good, or if we have not yet become good? If we believe ourselves to be good when we are not good, we are living a lie. The only way to become good is to allow God [The Holy Spirit] to transform us into Christ, the model to be realized, but we cannot be so transformed if we already believe ourselves to be good. ---“Thus, there really is no sin, and no need for justice at all. There is only love.” As Chesterton pointed out, sin is so obvious that we can see it in the streets. ---“Geisler confuses free will with freedom, and what God gave us is not just the former, but the latter as well. We are free, free to do whatever we wish. There is no punishment. If there were, it wouldn’t be freedom. This is not to say that there aren’t consequences. We do reap what we sow, but in our daily lives, not in some eternal damnation.” How can we reap evil benefits if evil doesn’t exist? ---“I don’t expect to convince you of any of this, by the way. My real purpose in replying is in the hope that perhaps someone reading this might be inspired by the idea of a God who loves us unconditionally and from whom we have nothing whatsoever to fear.” God has explained in great detail what it means to love and be loved by him. Among other things, it means loving Him with our whole heart and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves. He has also made it quite clear that we demonstrate that love by obeying Him and, with His help, keeping the commandments. If we refuse to obey God and keep his commandments, we have a great deal to fear because, through those actions, we show that we love only ourselves and do not really love God at all. Those who persist with that attitude will go to hell. Where else would God put them? Immaterial souls, having no parts, cannot die, and there are no rebels in heaven. ---“To such a person: read Conversations with God, by Neale Donald Walsch. These ideas are expounded there at length and much, much more eloquently than I can manage.” Please burn that book because its author, a pantheist, lacks sound judgment. I implore you to seek out authors who are not so naïve as to believe that God is organic with the universe. God is the Creator of the universe, not the sum total of all its parts.StephenB
February 14, 2011
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Born Again: and by the way, I did not mean to imply that you believe that there is on absolute right or wrong. My statement was more in the line of you have concluded correctly in that regard.Bruce David
February 14, 2011
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Born Again: You keep confusing an "ought" with an "is". My position that there is no absolute right and wrong in a MORAL sense has absolutely nothing to do with right and wrong in the sense of correct or incorrect. It is totally consistent for me to discuss what is correct or incorrect (ie., true or false) while still holding that there is no absolute right or wrong in the sense of good and bad.Bruce David
February 14, 2011
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Bruce David I didn't get past the first line; 'You’re completely correct, there is no absolute standard of right and wrong,' Excuse Me, I have in no way ever even hinted that that was my position. Yet the irony of irony is that even though you want to believe that proposition you attributed to me, for whatever misguided reason, to be true, the simple fact is that you forfeit any right whatsoever to argue whether your ideas are right or wrong in the first place since you claim there is no absolute standard from which to judge by.bornagain77
February 14, 2011
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Born Again: To take your points in order, 1. You're completely correct, there is no absolute standard of right and wrong, and there never has been. Notice that every sect of every religion has its own version of absolute right and wrong, and furthermore, each one of these changes over time. Absolute right and wrong is an illusion, part of what we humans make up as evil. However, there are other reasons to incarcerate murderers and rapists, like protecting ourselves, for example. The whole subject of the way we punish criminals in our society needs drastic revision, but that is much to big a topic to address here. 2. I do NOT hold your views to be evil, simply incorrect. Goodness, if every incorrect view that we hold were evil, we'd be in a fine pickle, wouldn't we. God made us in His image and likeness. That means that each of us is magnificent beyond imagining. The purpose of earthly existence is for us to EXPERIENCE our magnificence. This is God's gift to us and to Himself (for we are all One). In order to experience our goodness, we must have something that is not good to compare ourselves to. However, in God's world, there is nothing that isn't good. Hence, we come here and label certain things as evil in order to have that "not good" something. In God's eyes, however, the evil that we see is just part of the creation whose purpose is the experiencing of our magnificence. Hence, in His eyes (and ours, once we reach a certain level of understanding) that which we have labeled evil is actually good, because it is necessary for the purpose to be fulfilled. It is part of His perfect creation. There is only love; all is love--God's love for us and ours for Him and each other. God is our friend, our lover, our mother and father. We have absolutely nothing to fear from His unconditional love for us.Bruce David
February 14, 2011
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Bruce David, your dream-world utopia vision of 'Everything Is Good' dissolves into absurdity. For if there is no absolute standard of 'good' to judge by then the whole standard of judging right and wrong collapses. i.e. might as well free all the criminals in jail since murder and rape is no less good than charity to our enemies and chivalry towards women. But of more to the point with you is that you hold your view of 'Everything is Good' to be 'more good' than my view that 'evil exist', thus defeating yourself with your own inconsistency of logic. For if you by you own admission claim that all things are good then you have forfeited the right to tell me my view is bad (i.e. evil) for in your overarching view of the goodness and badness of things, my view is just as good as your view is.bornagain77
February 14, 2011
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Born Again: What do you mean by the word "real" If you mean that God declares that evil is real, then I must disagree with you, for reasons I have already stated. (And I would ask you how you know that God declares evil is real anyway.) If you mean that somehow evil is simply real, then I cannot conceive of what you mean by that except that it sure seems real to you. But that just makes it your subjective judgment. If you mean that everyone agrees that evil is real, I say that simply isn't true, and as we know from the Darwin vs ID controversy, a majority opinion is no guarantee of truth.Bruce David
February 14, 2011
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Bruce David??? and I misunderstood your position how??? when you say that humans 'made up' evil, you are in fact saying that evil is not real, which is exactly what I pointed out was the flaw in your reasoning!!! Denying such an obvious reality is termed 'denialism'.bornagain77
February 14, 2011
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Born again: What I said was that evil is something we humans make up, that there is no evil in God's eyes. The whole of creation is good, what we view as evil included, in His eyes, because it perfectly suits the purpose for which He created it. See my last comment for a very brief explanation of that purpose.Bruce David
February 13, 2011
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correction; (lack of loving God with all our heart and soul, and others as ourselves)bornagain77
February 13, 2011
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Bruce your entire reasoning is built on the presupposition that there is no evil. For me that is just plain non-sense. I don't care how much you, or Conversations with God, doctors it up with big words, the fact is that evil (lack of loving God and others as ourselves) does exist and to deny that it does exist is tantamount to denying that truth and lies exist.bornagain77
February 13, 2011
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Born Again: I won't pretend that I have an explanation of Bill Wiese's experience of Hell, but I do know that it does not follow from that that Hell actually exists as a place where souls are sent by God. Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is within. This would seem to imply that the kingdom of Hell is also within, which is what I believe. The only Hell that exists is the Hell we create for ourselves by imagining that we are separate from God. Norman Geisler's lecture on evil was clever, but it has some flaws: 1. At the very beginning he defines evil according to Augustine (as I remember) as a corruption of something good. This is a man-made definition. All concepts of evil are man-made. The truth is that in God's eyes there is no evil. The reason that we believe that there is evil is so that we may experience ourselves as good. The entire purpose of physical existence is for us to experience ourselves as God like (in His image and likeness), and in that process God also experiences Himself through us. You see, the problem is that a being can know it is good, but it can't EXPERIENCE its goodness without the experience of its opposite. So we make up evil in order to experience good. You see, we are actually all one with God, a very part of Him, in partnership with Him in the glorious business of experiencing our and His magnificence. Thus, there really is no sin, and no need for justice at all. There is only love. 2. Geisler confuses free will with freedom, and what God gave us is not just the former, but the latter as well. We are free, free to do whatever we wish. There is no punishment. If there were, it wouldn't be freedom. This is not to say that there aren't consequences. We do reap what we sow, but in our daily lives, not in some eternal damnation. I don't expect to convince you of any of this, by the way. My real purpose in replying is in the hope that perhaps someone reading this might be inspired by the idea of a God who loves us unconditionally and from whom we have nothing whatsoever to fear. To such a person: read Conversations with God, by Neale Donald Walsch. These ideas are expounded there at length and much, much more eloquently than I can manage.Bruce David
February 13, 2011
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Bruce David this, reconciling God's infinite love with His infinite justice, is a very deep subject that goes to the very heart of the nature of God. And I find Christ to be the perfect resolution for the infinite love/infinite justice dilemma.,,, Yet if one refuses to accept what God Himself has wrought though Christ on the cross, for our behalf, to satisfy God's infinite justice for our sin, then there is nothing left for His infinite love to accomplish to save us, for indeed it was God's infinite love that compelled Him to endure the cross on our behalf so that we could be reunited with Him in paradise. Here is a sobering video that answers a few questions as to why hell exists: Bill Wiese - 23 Minutes In Hell - video http://www.vimeo.com/16155839 full length http://www.vimeo.com/16641462 I saw this video yesterday which gave a little more clarity to the whole issue of 'evil' which is the number one hang up of many people to accepting God's work through Christ. Perhaps you will find it enlightening as well; If God, Why Evil? (Norman Geisler) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtOOPaNmJFYbornagain77
February 13, 2011
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Born Again: I fully accept that who we are is spirit, a soul, an individuation of God. I also accept that the place we go to after the death of the physical body, which is our true home, has characteristics that are different and hard even to imagine while occupying a physical body. I have also been quite certain for some time now that reality is entirely mental, as described in your quote by Richard Conn Henry, (we are living in a kind of virtual reality maintained by the mind of God) and that time itself, along with the physical universe, is an illusion (all there is is Now). What I don't accept is that God would be so unloving as to punish people with everlasting damnation simply for not accepting Jesus as their savior. That, I submit, is a contradiction of the very nature of God.Bruce David
February 13, 2011
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Bruce David you ask; 'So what exactly do all these near-death experiences demonstrate other than that people generally see what they expect to see based on their cultural predispositions?' Well if you hold that near death experiences are merely figments of imagination then yours might be a reasonable position. Though for sure your position would be severely stretched of credulity since the 'physics' of the near death experiences reported in Judeo-Christian Cultures are so similar. i.e. it would be nearly the same as if you suggested that these millions of people are having the same hallucination. As well You might have a fall back reason, to give your 'shared imagination' postulate credibility, if you could point to a underlying physiological state that is shared among Judeo-Christian NDE's but alas that would not explain why foreign cultures are so different, and to boot all physiological states suggested so far (anoxia, drugs, etc..) have all been ruled out. Dr. Jeff Long, who has recently written on the overwhelming scientific evidence supporting NDE's, speaks on the 'medically inexplicable' nature of NDE's here; Near Death Experiences - Scientific Evidence - Dr Jeff Long M.D. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4454627/ As well Bruce, special relativity overwhelmingly confirms the 'reality of the physics' of what the NDEer's say they experience; Please note the similarity of the effect noted at the 3:22 minute mark of the following video, when the 3-D world folds and collapses into a tunnel, when traveling at the speed of light, with the 'light at the end of the tunnel' effect noted in many Near Death Experiences. Traveling At The Speed Of Light - Optical Effects - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5733303/ The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I started to move toward the light. The way I moved, the physics, was completely different than it is here on Earth. It was something I had never felt before and never felt since. It was a whole different sensation of motion. I obviously wasn't walking or skipping or crawling. I was not floating. I was flowing. I was flowing toward the light. I was accelerating and I knew I was accelerating, but then again, I didn't really feel the acceleration. I just knew I was accelerating toward the light. Again, the physics was different - the physics of motion of time, space, travel. It was completely different in that tunnel, than it is here on Earth. I came out into the light and when I came out into the light, I realized that I was in heaven. (Barbara Springer) The NDE and the Tunnel - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: I saw a pinpoint of light in the distance. The black mass around me began to take on more of the shape of a tunnel, and I felt myself traveling through it at an even grea...ter speed, rushing toward the light. I was instinctively attracted to it, although again, I felt that others might not. As I approached it, I noticed the figure of a man standing in it, with the light radiating all around him. (Betty Eadie) As well, special relativity (traveling at the speed of light) provides correlation for the 'eternal' effect noted in many Judeo-Christian Near Death Experiences: ..."I've just developed a new theory of eternity." Albert Einstein http://www.rd.com/your-america...-inspiring-people-and-stories/best-brainac/article37176-2.html "The laws of relativity have changed timeless existence from a theological claim to a physical reality. Light, you see, is outside of time, a fact of nature proven in thousands of experiments at hundreds of universities. I don’t pretend to know how tomorrow can exist simultaneously with today and yesterday. But at the speed of light they actually and rigorously do. Time does not pass." Richard Swenson - More Than Meets The Eye, Chpt. 12 'In the 'spirit world,,, instantly, there was no sense of time. See, everything on earth is related to time. You got up this morning, you are going to go to bed tonight. Something is new, it will get old. Something is born, it's going to die. Everything on the physical plane is relative to time, but everything in the spiritual plane is relative to eternity. Instantly I was in total consciousness and awareness of eternity, and you and I as we live in this earth cannot even comprehend it, because everything that we have here is filled within the veil of the temporal life. In the spirit life that is more real than anything else and it is awesome. Eternity as a concept is awesome. There is no such thing as time. I knew that whatever happened was going to go on and on.' Mickey Robinson - Near Death Experience testimony 'When you die, you enter eternity. It feels like you were always there, and you will always be there. You realize that existence on Earth is only just a brief instant.' Dr. Ken Ring - has extensively studied Near Death Experiences Perhaps Bruce you find it incredible that man could even have a 'soul'??? Yet Bruce if you think than man has no 'higher dimensional component' to his being, and think that life merely 'emerged' from some type of primordial ooze, then please explain this following puzzle to me; The predominance of quarter-power (4-D) scaling in biology Excerpt: Many fundamental characteristics of organisms scale with body size as power laws of the form: Y = Yo M^b, where Y is some characteristic such as metabolic rate, stride length or life span, Yo is a normalization constant, M is body mass and b is the allometric scaling exponent. A longstanding puzzle in biology is why the exponent b is usually some simple multiple of 1/4 (4-Dimensional scaling) rather than a multiple of 1/3, as would be expected from Euclidean (3-Dimensional) scaling. http://www.nceas.ucsb.edu/~drewa/pubs/savage_v_2004_f18_257.pdf “Although living things occupy a three-dimensional space, their internal physiology and anatomy operate as if they were four-dimensional. Quarter-power scaling laws are perhaps as universal and as uniquely biological as the biochemical pathways of metabolism, the structure and function of the genetic code and the process of natural selection.,,, The conclusion here is inescapable, that the driving force for these invariant scaling laws cannot have been natural selection." Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini, What Darwin Got Wrong (London: Profile Books, 2010), p. 78-79 https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/16037/#comment-369806 Though Jerry Fodor and Massimo Piatelli-Palmarini rightly find it inexplicable for 'random' Natural Selection to be the rational explanation for the scaling of the physiology, and anatomy, of living things to four-dimensional parameters, they do not seem to fully realize the implications this 'four dimensional scaling' of living things presents. This 4-D scaling is something we should rightly expect from a Intelligent Design perspective. This is because Intelligent Design holds that ‘higher dimensional transcendent information’ is more foundational to life, and even to the universe itself, than either matter or energy are. This higher dimensional 'expectation' for life, from a Intelligent Design perspective, is directly opposed to the expectation of the Darwinian framework, which holds that information, and indeed even the essence of life itself, is merely an 'emergent' property of the 3-D material realm. Further note: The Mental Universe - Richard Conn Henry - Professor of Physics John Hopkins University Excerpt: The only reality is mind and observations, but observations are not of things. To see the Universe as it really is, we must abandon our tendency to conceptualize observations as things.,,, Physicists shy away from the truth because the truth is so alien to everyday physics. A common way to evade the mental universe is to invoke "decoherence" - the notion that "the physical environment" is sufficient to create reality, independent of the human mind. Yet the idea that any irreversible act of amplification is necessary to collapse the wave function is known to be wrong: in "Renninger-type" experiments, the wave function is collapsed simply by your human mind seeing nothing. The universe is entirely mental,,,, The Universe is immaterial — mental and spiritual. Live, and enjoy. http://henry.pha.jhu.edu/The.mental.universe.pdf Bruce, the fact is that reality itself testifies to the validity of Near Death Experience, thus the truth of the matter is that there is a higher dimension that we go to upon death, and as the Shroud stubbornly testifies, it does indeed matter who you entrust your 'higher dimensional soul' to; Shroud of Turin in 3-D – The Holographic Experience – Face & Body – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5889891/bornagain77
February 13, 2011
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Bruce David, Certainly it’s possible that one tradition has a lock on the truth. I didn't say one tradition has a 'lock on the truth'. Just that the mere existence of differing answers to a given question doesn't mean that the possibility of achieving a single, correct answer is beyond possibility. Sometimes people are just plain wrong. would be denied communion with God because he or she didn’t accept Jesus as his or her savior is, frankly, preposterous. You're confusing the truth of one religion/teaching or another with questions of salvation - those are distinct questions. I'm entirely comfortable with the idea that, say.. a noble pagan can go to heaven when he dies. But it wouldn't be his due to his polytheism. Someone can believe in (for example) Christian universalism and still hold that other religions are wrong. Again, distinct questions.nullasalus
February 13, 2011
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