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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
"So in order for God to experience His goodness he had to have the experience of evil" "But in the transcendent state, this is not possible. Thus, He created imminence" "I tried to be careful regarding what I know of God by the use of phrases such as “in my view” and “I believe” where appropriate." cough, cough.Upright BiPed
February 16, 2011
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StephenB, Not bad. I'm actually impressed. However, you got one part wrong: goodness does exist. God is good, and so are we, since we are a part of Him and made in His image and likeness. The problem, which is solved by the existence of the world, is that goodness cannot be experienced without its opposite being also present in awareness in some way. So in order for God to experience His goodness he had to have the experience of evil. But in the transcendent state, this is not possible. Thus, He created imminence (and us a part of it) so that we, by temporarily forgetting our true nature, can experience the opposite of good, or evil, thus allowing us to experience good as well. But since we are One with Him and created in His image and likeness, our experience also becomes His experience. This dynamic is not limited to goodness. All of His qualities are experienced in a similar manner. This is why there is no evil in God's eyes, because what we experience as evil is all part of His perfect plan. And this is why He loves us unconditionally and will never punish us. Punishing us would be tantamount to punishing Himself for doing exactly what we were created to do. I will repeat what I said earlier, however: the lack of punishment does not imply a lack of consequences. Consequences tend to be in the nature of "What goes around comes around." or "We reap what we sow." If you sow hatred, hatred comes back to you. If you sow love, love comes back. I have personally experienced both to be true.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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---Bruce: "Honestly, is this all you people can do, continually try to catch me up in a contradiction? Why don’t you seriously try to understand where I am coming from instead?" Bruce, I do understand where you are coming from. God is all people; all people are a part of God. Mao is one part, Mother Teresa is another part. God is one being and yet that same being commits genocide and also ministers to lepers. This behavior, while it may seem schizophrenic, is really an expression of oneness. In keeping with that point, Mao's evil doesn't really exist. Granted, his practices may seem evil, but they aren't. They simply allow us to have an experience of evil, in the absence of any real evil, in order to experience goodness, which also doesn't exist.StephenB
February 16, 2011
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allanius: I only ever said that there was no right and wrong in God's eyes. Each of us has standards that we apply to our own behavior (and usually, unfortunately, to everyone else as well). This should be obvious. I don't generally use the terms right and wrong when discussing peoples' behavior, including my own, but I was responding to Pachyaena so I used her words. As I have said repeatedly in this thread, part of the purpose of the created world is for us to experience ourselves as good. There is no contradiction in saying there is no evil in God's eyes and the idea that we need concepts of good and evil in order to have that experience ourselves. Honestly, is this all you people can do, continually try to catch me up in a contradiction? Why don't you seriously try to understand where I am coming from instead?Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Bruce, Bruce, Bruce. First you say there is no right or wrong, then you say your brother knows the difference between right and wrong. So either you are wrong about your brother or Brother Neale is wrong about right and wrong. Of course, you could both be wrong.allanius
February 16, 2011
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Ok, StephenB, I'll give it one more shot, although I don't hold out much hope. What I said was the there is no evil in God's eyes. I said that what we label as evil is something that we decide (and if you notice, every sect of every religion has a different definition of what actually constitutes evil). We live in an illusion, but until we have reached a high level of understanding, the illusion seems very real. Thus the evil that we see is real IN OUR EXPERIENCE. This is all that is required for the purpose to be fulfilled. We have an EXPERIENCE of evil, which allows us to have an EXPERIENCE of good. Later, when our spiritual growth has progressed to the point where we see the whole picture, where we understand the illusion for what it is and what it's purpose is, the memory of that experience of evil is sufficient for us to continue to experience our goodness. That's my understanding of how it works. It makes perfect sense to me. If it doesn't to you, well, so be it. As for Mother Teresa and Hitler, yes, they are both a part of Him. In particular, Hitler is one of the parts that allows us to have an experience of evil. So Hitler is part of the Creation, which is perfectly constructed by God to perfectly fulfill its purpose. On the subject of Hitler, I believe that he genuinely believed that his actions were right (in both senses of "right"). I think that he truly had no idea that the world at large regarded him as a monster. He could never understand, for example, why the English wouldn't join him, given that they also were arians and thus members of the "master race". Most people, most of the time, do nothing that they view as wrong, given their understanding of the world.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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--Bruce: "You concluded that humans have no “identity of intellectual faculty of their own”. It doesn’t follow. God divided Himself into all of us." Is God both Hitler and Mother Teresa? Are Hitler and Mother Teresa both parts of God? Is one part of God committing genocide while another part of God is healing lepers? Do you really believe that nonsense? You stated specifically that we must believe that evil exists, even though it doesn't exist, in order to experience goodness. That means that, by your standard, we must believe a lie in order to experience goodness. That makes no sense. Do you not see that? There are just two of the multiple points that I have brought out.StephenB
February 16, 2011
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Gesualdo: Thank you for the civility of your response. I can only say that I had the same experience of liberation when God said (in Conversations with God) that there is no right or wrong, only what works and what doesn't work given what you want to be do or have. Or when He said that He would never punish us, ever. The experience was, at last I know that God really does love me. I have nothing to fear from Him. It was like coming home, being embraced in the bosom of the Creator. Conversations with God also gives the only explanation that really makes sense to me of the purpose of the creation in general and the physical universe in particular. Included in that is a completely satisfying (to me) explanation of why we do and experience things that seem to be negative or at odds with our and God's true natures (what Christians would classify as evil or sin). So I will issue a similar challenge to you: read Conversations with God with a truly open mind and see where it takes you.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena: I agree with you completely, even though it's probably true that I could do with a little more humility myself on occasion. I particularly agree that it is not necessary to be religious or even spiritual to know the difference between right and wrong, or put another way, to be a good person. My brother is my favorite example. He is kind and honest and loving. He is the best father I know personally. I would trust him with my life (and my money, and my heart) And, he isn't just an agnostic, he's an out and out atheist.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Born Again: If you can't tell the difference between my philosophy and materialism/atheism, then I can only say you really haven't been paying attention to anything I have said.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Upright BiPed: So you want to leave with a parting shot? Get in the last word? Ok. I'll let you have it. Via con Dios.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Bruce David, Thank you for considering my commments. I found your comments at #58 very interesting. That the "dream state" of God is so real is only one (very small) step away from realizing that God actually created something different from Himself. I agree that sin is a problem. I was with you for most of my life. However, accepting the reality of sin was the most liberating thing. It explained why I and other people acted the way we do. No other world view explains why we act the way we do. I will give you a personal challange. Take a deep breath and just say, "Maybe Christianity is right." Then just wait. If you asked with a true desire to know, you will find the answer. God Bless, GesualdoGCS
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, if you knew the difference between right and wrong you'd be a Christian. But, as it apparently helps you sleep at night, feel free to continue to ignore the fact that Christians agree on over 90% of what the Bible teaches, and the other 10% is mostly about fairly insignificant issues. Don't remember either that what one would call "mainline" Christians all agree that if the core issues---the deity of Christ, salvation by faith alone, and similar---are not affirmed by a "denomination", they are labeled a cult and not accepted as Christian, and that therefore there is no fighting in those cases among Christians. Whatever keeps you shielded from the truth doesn't, in my opinion, stem from either integrity or critical thinking. Oh! And do you think you are right?Brent
February 16, 2011
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For an example, Bruce David, of how closely your philosophy mirrors atheism, notice how closely your moral dilemma would mirror the professor's dilemma in this situation, since 'All is good' in your view; Cruel Logic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qd1LPRJLnIbornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Bruce David, I can't help noticing how closely your philosophy mirrors atheism/materialism, for the atheists hold that 'material' is all that there is, and you hold that 'material' is just a 'part of God'. ,,, The parallels are spooky that come from that relationship!bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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It's amusing that those of you who say you are Christians don't agree on how to interpret and practice Christianity, and of course you also think that your religion (and your interpretation and practice of it) is the only correct set of religious beliefs. When I read scientific articles/papers and/or science blogs, I often see disagreement and even some fights. When I read religious articles and/or religious blogs, I often see the same kind of disagreements and fights. Just about everyone thinks they know everything and that anyone who doesn't agree with them must be wrong, whether it pertains to science, religion, politics, or anything else. A massive dose of humility would do the human race a lot of good. By the way, I'm not religious at all but I know the difference between right and wrong. Really I do.Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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Bruce David,
I was responding to this statement from you...
That is unfortunate of course, if for no other reason than it does nothing to strengthen your claims. Just perhaps, what you should have been responding to is this:
...we can conclude from you that when reasoning over claims of truth, there can be instances where our reasoning could be good and right, but incorrect. At the same time, there can be instances where our reasoning could be wrong and bad, but correct.
- - - - - - - I've noticed that the repeated bottomline theme of your last posts have been to disengage from this conversation. In place of forcing me to address thoughtful responses to what has been presented to you, please allow me to bid you farewell. :)Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: I was responding to this statement from you: “For instance, when someone states that it is absolutely correct that there are no standards by which to judge right and wrong, then I haplessly wonder what standard they used to make that jusgement…” In that statement you have confused the two meanings of right and wrong. If you can't see it, there is nothing more I can say.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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StephenB: Only 7 directly addresses pantheism, and it is a perfect example of how "reason" comes up with idiocy. What logical rule implies that something that changes cannot be perfect. Some scholastic philosopher made that up. Furthermore, even if we grant that God is less than perfect, why does that imply we should not worship Him, given that He is still our creator and still far beyond us? Finally, even granting all your premises, the conclusion that a pantheistic God is not worthy of worship does not invalidate pantheism, Rather, it invalidates worship. And anyway, why would a perfect God need or want our worship in the first place? Numbers 15 and 16 touch on pantheism, but they simply betray your lack of understanding of what I said. You concluded that humans have no "identity of intellectual faculty of their own". It doesn't follow. God divided Himself into all of us. We are each an individuation of Him, distinct but not separate. We are each made in His image and likeness with all of His qualities, including consciousness and individual identity. You don't believe this, I know, nor do you understand it, which I can tell from the questions you ask. You think you are applying reason to my beliefs, but all you are really doing is betraying your lack of understanding. Reason cannot deal effectively with what it does not understand. This is why I said that it would be fruitless to continue the conversation. Given your beliefs, it is impossible for you to grasp what I am trying to convey. Words can never describe spiritual truth. They can only point to it. You have to let the words evoke your inner knowing, which you are simply unable to do--not because you are not smart enough, but because your existing structure of belief will not allow it. This is no problem, really. We each have lifetimes and lifetimes to come to awareness. We have as much time as we need. But you and I really have nothing more to say to each other that would be productive, not that I can see anyway.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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Bruce David,
You, like Born Again, are confusing right and wrong in the sense of good and bad with right and wrong in the sense of correct and incorrect. When I say there is no absolute standard of right and wrong, I am referring to the meanings right = good and wrong = bad.
Thank you for the adventure into mind-reading, but no, your words are fairly accessible and I wasn't confused about any of them. But by all means, let us change out your original words with your revised choices. Here are your original words: You’re completely correct, there is no absolute standard of right and wrong, and there never has been. And here is your revision: You’re completely correct, there is no absolute standard of good and bad, and there never has been. And finally, here is the wording you consider mistaken: You’re completely correct, there is no absolute standard of correct and incorrect, and there never has been. - - - - - - Now that we have that out of the way, we can conclude from you that when reasoning over claims of truth, there can be instances where our reasoning could be good and right, but incorrect. At the same time, there can be instances where our reasoning could be wrong and bad, but correct. Thanks for the clarification.Upright BiPed
February 15, 2011
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---Bruce David: "The only refutation of pantheism that I could find in all your words was this: [God cannot also be his creation]. The only one you could find? There are 20 points that you did not respond to. Here are the other 19. @48 1) I showed how you conflated the definition of evil with the reality of evil. 2) I showed that, according to your philosophy, one must believe a lie [believing in evil even when it doesn't exist] in order to experience goodness. 3) I pointed out that, if we believe ourselves to be good and are not, we are living a lie, 4) I argued that the outrageous behavior if some people exposes the self-evident nature of sin 5) I asked you how evil consequences are possible if evil doesn’t exist. 6) I argued that love undefined is meaningless and that it does, in fact, requires adherence to God’s commandments. @50 7) I argued that a pantheistic God is always changing, cannot be perfect, and does not, under the circumstances, deserve to be worshipped. 8) I asked you what you would have do with souls that live forever, but do not want to be in heaven. 9) I showed that Christianity is a historical religion based on reason and that pantheism was simply hatched in someone’s mind. 10) I pointed out that you present only false negative arguments against Christianity and no positive arguments in favor of pantheism. @62 11) I showed that that law of non-contradiction is not fallible. 12) I pointed out that your argument that knowledge is “given” and cannot be apprehended places you at the mercy of some guru who will give you the information. 13) I pointed out that you not only reject evil, but you also deny that reality itself exists by saying that creation is a “part” of God 14) I indicated that you need reason’s rules to discern deceptive “still voices” from truthful still voices. 15) I pointed out that you cannot say that humans remember who they are and what they did after death if they have no identity or intellectual faculty of their own. 16) I indicated that you cannot say humans have such an identity if they are, in fact, part of God and therefore a part of God’s identity. That would mean God, and not us, was doing the remembering. 17) I pointed out that, according to Scripture, Jesus is ONE with the Father, but, contrary to your assertions, We are not. 18) I showed that, according to Scripture, we cannot be Jesus brothers and sisters without doing God’s will 19) I showed that the Church, contrary to your claim invented the doctrine of hell, took that teachings directly from Christ’s own words. If you want to pick just three or four, try 2, 3, 15, and 16.StephenB
February 15, 2011
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Born Again: Please, not that old argument again. Who was it that first advanced it, some French philosopher, Poincare, was it? Anyway, it's just more fear based reasoning. You'd better believe because if you're wrong you'll spend eternity in Hell. See, the problem with that argument is that God is unconditionally loving, so it simply is not possible that He would punish us that way. To me, Hell is just a story, made up by Church fathers to keep the troops in line. It has no reality. What if the fundamentalist Mulsims are right? Then you, as an infidel, will spend an eternity in Hell. I suggest you immediately convert. Start by affirming, There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet. Then you had better start following the Sharia. Set your alarm for 4:00 am so you don't miss the first prayer tomorrow morning. Hell, man, there are even Christian sects that will have you burning in Hell for all sorts of ridiculous transgressions, like dancing, for instance, or listening to music that isn't liturgical. If a man wants to avoid Hell, what's a fella to do?Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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StephenB: The only refutation of pantheism that I could find in all your words was this: "The Creator cannot also be his creation, just as an author cannot also be his book, just as an artist cannot also be his painting." This is not a logical refutation, it is simply an argument from analogy, and the analogy doesn't hold. It doesn't even apply to humans. The book exists in the imagination of the author--ie., is a part of him or her--before it is translated to ink on paper or characters on a screen. My position with respect to God is that there is no translation to the physical world, because there is no physical world outside of Him. It is entirely within the mind of God--virtual reality if you will. God does create out of Himself. Now you may think my views are wrong headed (or just wrong) but I defy you to find a logical contradiction in them.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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correction; since you hold that ‘bad/evil’ does NOT really exist in your overarching view of reality,bornagain77
February 15, 2011
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Bruce David, I noticed you said this; 'like Born Again, are confusing right and wrong in the sense of good and bad with right and wrong in the sense of correct and incorrect.' Now Bruce David I take your logic to mean that being correct and incorrect does not equate to good and bad, since you hold that 'bad/evil' does really exist in your overarching view of reality, only good really exist in your view. Now let's take this position of yours to the extreme and see if your position holds water. If I am 'correct' in my Christian view of reality, which I hold that I am by many uncompromising evidences I have seen, then, by my adoption into the eternal family of God through Christ, I will enter into an unimaginably wonderful paradise (testified to by NDE's), which I hold to be a very 'good' thing. And yet if I am incorrect, and you are 'correct' in your 'all is good' reality, then I have lost nothing in my acceptance of Christ into my life since I will end up reunited with God anyhow. Yet, and this is a BIG YET, if you are 'incorrect' in your view of reality, as I adamantly hold that you are, and you cause yourself or someone else to reject Christ, because of your faulty reasoning in this very important matter, then you have lost everything that can be considered good, for you, or someone else you have misled, has rejected the 'correct' path to be reunited with God and will indeed be separated from all that is 'Good', since God is certainly the source of all that is good!!! and furthermore God is even the absolute standard we are to ultimately to judge good and evil, correct and incorrect by for there can be no higher standard in which to appeal.bornagain77
February 15, 2011
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---Bruce: "I have explained to you why my view of pantheism is logically consistent. You nonetheless insist that it is not. We will simply have to leave it that we disagree." I have provided no less than 16 refutations, none of which were answered.StephenB
February 15, 2011
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StephenB, Despite Bruce David's refusal to honestly deal with his faulty reasoning in a 'honest' discussion with you, and despite his dismissive tone to your solid response, I am very appreciative of the depth you bring to the table when you defend your points!bornagain77
February 15, 2011
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Upright BiPed: You said, "For instance, when someone states that it is absolutely correct that there are no standards by which to judge right and wrong, then I haplessly wonder what standard they used to make that jusgement..." You, like Born Again, are confusing right and wrong in the sense of good and bad with right and wrong in the sense of correct and incorrect. When I say there is no absolute standard of right and wrong, I am referring to the meanings right = good and wrong = bad. I am not making any statement whatsoever regarding the meanings right = correct and wrong = incorrect. In other words, you can paraphrase my statement as, "It is correct that there is no absolute standard of good and bad." Clear? I take it you really don't have any method by which you can determine when reason is being used correctly and when not. StephenB: I have explained to you why my view of pantheism is logically consistent. You nonetheless insist that it is not. We will simply have to leave it that we disagree. The rest of your long polemic is full of similar areas of disagreement for which I can see no hope of any kind of reconciliation between our views, and frankly, I don't have the time to spend on what would clearly be a completely fruitless discussion.Bruce David
February 15, 2011
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---Bruce: “I didn’t exactly say that reason has failed. What I said was that it has demonstrated itself to be fallible. As justification for that statement, I point to the history of Western philosophy, in which the vast majority of thinkers, all very smart guys, used reason to arrive at their conclusions. However, those conclusions were all different, and in the main contradicted each other. If reason were not fallible, they would all have reached the same conclusions, now wouldn’t they.” Are you really thinking this thing through? How would you know that these philosophers contradicted each other except by depending on reason's rules to inform you of that fact. If reason is, as you say, fallible, maybe it is fallible in your present use, which would mean that it mislead you into believing that the philosophers in question had contradicted each other. Reason doesn’t fail, but unreasoning humans often do. Indeed, Western thought is replete with many forays into the truth and also many errors. Through the use of reason, we can detect those errors and learn from them. Interestingly, the forerunners of modern philosophy contradicted themselves on a regular basis, whereas the truly great philosophers never contradict themselves at all. Great philosophers, like Plato and Aristotle, may begin with different assumptions, but they do not make logical errors or contradict themselves. On the other hand, the more popular philosophers embraced by the establishment and the Darwinist academy, commit one logical error after another. Hume, for example, is full of contradictions. In one breath, he tells us that miracles are impossible because nature is a closed system, limited by the unalterable laws of cause and effect. In the next breath, he tells us that the proofs for God’s existence are invalid because causality is undependable. How about Kant? In one breath, he tells us that we cannot really know anything about reality? In the next breath, he tells us that he knows enough about reality to declare that we cannot know anything about it. Why do otherwise intelligent men make such stupid logical errors? Easy! On some matters, they think with their glands [their desire for unfettered sex or the love of power] and leave their brains at home. Bertrand Russell, who was as gifted as most, asked one of the stupidest questions in history about classical theology: "Who made God?" Obviously, the classical theological formulation characterizes God as the uncaused cause, which would mean, of course, that God could not have been caused or made. The problem is not with reason but rather with fallen humans who would prefer that the conclusions to which reason leads them are not so.StephenB
February 15, 2011
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Bruce David, Reason is not “notoriously fallible” as a means of identifying contradictory world views. The law of non-contradiction is infallible insofar as it is impossible for a thing to be true and false at the same time and under the same formal circumstances. No one here is suggesting that reason alone is sufficient for discovering all truth, certainly not me. There is a difference between "rationality" and "rationalism." Rationality can be used to test religion's truth claims, but it leaves the door open to Divine revelation; rationalism declares that all religions are unnecessary and that reason alone is sufficient to arrive at all truth. Because all religions make truth claims, they should be subjected to reason's standards. Any religion that cannot pass the test should be rejected. Pantheism makes truth claims, but it does not pass the test of reason. You quote Sufis by saying that “knowledge is given and not acquired.” By that statement alone, you give away the store. If we cannot apprehend knowledge, but must wait until some guru deigns to give it to us, then rationality has left the building. Granted, one can receive a “revealed truth” from a Divine source, however, the religion that presumes to present that revelation must be grounded in, or tested for, rationality, otherwise, we cannot discern which revelations are trustworthy and which ones are not. Again, we can indeed hear God’s still voice during prayer, through which God may speak to us. However, the answers to prayers are, by no means, synonymous with the reasoning process. You say that you have found that real knowledge is a kind of “seeing.” Again, if God is speaking to someone in a mystical sense, that could be true. To know God as HE is would surpass all of reason's capacity to apprehend it. However, one can also be mislead by that still small voice or even about the identity of its author. That still small voice, for example, has persuaded you that evil doesn’t exist, that God is organic with the universe, and that the law of contradiction is negotiable. Indeed, you not only deny the existence of evil, but go one step further by denying reality itself, suggesting that creation is merely a dream in the mind of God. Since you and I are part of creation, your philosophy reduces us both to dreams in the mind of God and completely wipes out our identity. That world view refutes itself. I know for a fact that I exist and am more than a dream in the mind of God because I can test that proposition daily. Interestingly, I agree with your following statement to the effect that we remember who we are after we die. Even so, I don’t know how you reconcile that point with your earlier claim that we are but a dream in the mind of God. How can we remember who we are if we don't exist as persons, or have no distinct identity, or have no distinct intellectual faculty. If we are only a part of God, with no identity of our own, then it would be God who is remembering a part of himself. With that scenario, we would not be doing the remembering at all. Do you not see this? That is what reason is for—to find out if what we believe makes any sense. This escape from reason also leads you to conclude that God cannot punish us because we are a part of God. Yet one paragraph earlier, you argue that we can remember who we are after we die because, presumably, we have our own intellectual facility that can do the remembering, except that you don’t believe we have our own intellectual faculties at all-- that they are God’s faculties. Do you see the problem here? On the matter of Jesus’s sayings, I can only acknowledge, once again, that you have not been listening to the quiet voice of God but rather to the loud voice of a misguided pantheist author. Christ did, indeed, say that He was one with the Father, because both the Son and the Father are equally and fully God. On the other hand, he certainly did not say, nor could he say, that we are “ALL one with the Father” because that would make us equal with God. What he did say is that we can become adopted sons of God and, to that extent, participate in Divine life. But we will always be creatures and God will always be God. The Father “begat” the Son, but He “created us.” To beget is to generate an equal; to create is to produce an inferior. Hence, humans beget other humans, their equals, but they create works of art, their inferiors. God the Father begat his Son, his equal, but He created us, his inferiors. Christ did, indeed, say that we can be his brothers and sisters [with his human nature not his Divine nature] but he very clearly laid down the conditions for such a relationship: As He put it, “For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister….” You say that the church leaders have created a theology of fear to keep people in line and prevent them from thinking for themselves. By the theology of fear, I gather you mean the doctrine of hell. Once again, I must ask you to submit that proposition to the facts in evidence and the standards of reason. Would it be helpful if I pointed out that Jesus Christ himself spoke more about the reality of hell than on any other subject? Would it help if I pointed out that the Church’s doctrine on hell was a reiteration of the Savior’s own words. This, by the way, is another advantage of subjecting our interpretations to reasoned analysis. Among other things, reason allows us to distinguish between the act of reading out of a text the meaning that is inherent in it [exegesis] from the act of reading into a text the meaning we wish was there but isn’t [eisegesis].StephenB
February 15, 2011
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