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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
Eugen:
in communications and data storage, discreet modes are preferred for all the advantages you probably know about. Lets just think for a moment, if you (or me) have a chance to setup communication or storage system which mode: analogue or digital (discreet) would you use. I would pick digital for its simplicity, resistance to noise, easy manipulation of discreet units, etc…
I agree, but if you are implying that this is an indicator of design then I would disagree, for quite simple reasons: What other ways are there of encoding information at the mollecular level, and are they any simpler than an arrangement of molecules? If an arrangement of molecules (as opposed to say charge or spin) is the simplest and most versatile method of encoding information at the mollecular level then is is both a pragmatic design solution, but it is also what we would expect to see if life occured by natural means.DrBot
February 23, 2011
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Eugen: You are right. A cam bar/shaft is an analogue program, but the cam bar is subject to wear, chatter, noise etc. Convert to a sequence of digital instructions and the mess goes away. Do discrete state control, and where you need it put in feedback control, which can also be done digitally. Gkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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Dr Bot in communications and data storage, discreet modes are preferred for all the advantages you probably know about. Lets just think for a moment, if you (or me) have a chance to setup communication or storage system which mode: analogue or digital (discreet) would you use. I would pick digital for its simplicity, resistance to noise, easy manipulation of discreet units, etc… Another interesting thing. As we look down the nucleotide pair chain and we see for ex. AT and next pair is TA. Reminds me of PSK modulation where signal phase is switched by 180 deg. It probably doesn't mean much because nucleotides must come in groups of three to represent amino acid.Eugen
February 23, 2011
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"...any chemical system is composed of discrete molecules so you could also use that term when talking about naturally occurring chemicals. (i.e. that they are ‘digital’)"
No big deal, but this is not really accurate. The presence of discrete consituent chemicals and compounds is not the issue, it is the sequence that matters. “The existence of a genome and the genetic code divides the living organisms from nonliving matter. There is nothing in the physico-chemical world that remotely resembles reactions being determined by a sequence and codes between sequences.” - Hubert P. Yockey: Information Theory, Evolution, and the Origin of Life “A remarkable feature of the structure is that DNA can accommodate almost any sequence of base pairs—any combination of the bases adenine (A), cytosine (C), guanine (G) and thymine (T)—and, hence any digital message or information.” - Leroy Hood and David Galas PhD: The Digital Code of DNAUpright BiPed
February 23, 2011
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F/N: Analogue info and computation are also useful, but because they can be translated [e.g. using the nodes, interfaces and arcs model], to convert the focus to digital is without loss of generality.kairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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Dr Bot DNA uses a discrete state symbolic code, i.e. a digital code. (Actually, there are several levels of code and interwoven technologies. As a fisherman, I am even astonished at how they twine and roll up DNA without tangling it. Dupont/Stren, are you listening?) Digital systems are not locked up to be 2-state. You are right at another level, quantum technologies, including the atom, are discrete state. Digital is built into the substructure of the cosmos. Atoms are digital technology. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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>> “Why do you think it [may be?] justified or even permissible to a priori rule out any conclusions from science, whether they [e.g. the implications of cosmological expansion, and red shift, that the cosmos has a beginning at a definite time, also, fine tuning of the cosmos, and the FSCO/I in DNA and its increments to account for body plans, etc] suggest [to many informed onlookers or even participants -- up to and including Nobel and Equivalent Prize holders] the existence of God or anything else?” >>
I think that's great, as long as the examples listed don't become a stumbling block and Pach doesn't address the actual question being asked. It could be completely hypothetical/implausible. I.E., "Why shouldn't we leave open the door for science to possibly find that pink unicorns frolic in a land called fmlr and scratch bear bellies for fun before we start doing any research that may lead to (or away from) that conclusion?" I think we should leave the question with "God", though. I think what's gonna happen is that this question is going to force us to back up a step.Brent
February 23, 2011
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KF, I'm confused by your use of digital when talking about DNA - If you are referring to the fact that DNA encodes with discrete molecules then fine, but why keep using the term, after all any chemical system is composed of discrete molecules so you could also use that term when talking about naturally occurring chemicals. (i.e. that they are 'digital') Also, why does it matter that it is digital - would an analogue encoding make any difference to the function it performs? aFCSI or dFCSI - it doesn't seem to make a difference to what is being discussed. If its purpose (the d in dFCSI) is just to highlight similarities with digital (designed) computers then you can equally use aFCSI to highlight similarities with older (designed) analogue computers.DrBot
February 23, 2011
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Brent: Okay. P, let's hear your response: _______________ >> “Why do you think it [may be?] justified or even permissible to a priori rule out any conclusions from science, whether they [e.g. the implications of cosmological expansion, and red shift, that the cosmos has a beginning at a definite time, also, fine tuning of the cosmos, and the FSCO/I in DNA and its increments to account for body plans, etc] suggest [to many informed onlookers or even participants -- up to and including Nobel and Equivalent Prize holders] the existence of God or anything else?” >> _______________ Gkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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Him/Her??? I don't know. Could you clue us in on that also, Pach? :-)Brent
February 23, 2011
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To Everyone, May I suggest that we all drop everything for a moment and agree to only ask Pach one question and force him to attempt to answer it? I propose my question earlier, and what GEM is getting back to: "Why do you think it justified or even permissible to a priori rule out any conclusions from science, whether they suggest the existence of God or anything else?" I think that may be backing up a few steps and making him/her repeat bits and pieces of scattered information that we would otherwise have to dig up and put together, but I think that best. If we can get some consensus, or a suggestion for a better (or better worded) question, that'd be great. Hold off on answering that above question for now, Pach (and I know that you began to answer it before, but you didn't get back to my rebuttals of your reply), until we can either agree on this question or perhaps another. So . . . ? OH! And it'd probably be best to keep our replies to his/her reply limited so things don't just get unraveled again. Kinda hard in this style of communication, but we've probably all been on the other side like Pach is now, and it isn't easy.Brent
February 23, 2011
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F/N 2: can you show us how information -- and NB its connexion to entropy and coded digital manifestation in DNA etc -- is a strictly material thing?kairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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F/N: Re P, at 252:
Science has a materialistic position, whether I do or not. Science should only be interested in material things. Otherwise it wouldn’t be science.
Y'mean as in: _________________ >> To Sagan, as to all but a few other scientists, it is self-evident that the practices of science provide the surest method of putting us in contact with physical reality, and that, in contrast, the demon-haunted world rests on a set of beliefs and behaviors that fail every reasonable test . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[From: “Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. Emphases added.] >> __________________ That is putting an a priori, worldview, ideological, question-begging straight-jacket on science that cripples it from being able to seek and see the uncensored truth about our world. Instead, science at its best is an unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) provisional, progressive pursuit of the truth about our world, based on observation, experiment, analysis, explanatory/theoretical modelling, and empirical testing, evaluated though uncensored (but mutually respectful) discussion among the informed. In short, P, you have openly admitted precisely the problem that is dogging origins science study. Worldview level a priori evolutionary materialistic question-begging (presented under cover of what science is or should do, i.e loaded redefinition under the name of methodological naturalism), backed up by thought police enforcement tactics. The recent Gaskell expulsion on censorship by UK backed up by NCSE, is just a symptom of the problem. Enough is enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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Pach. you ask for evidence of mass density fine-tuning? Your kidding right? Barrow and Tippler - The Anthropic Cosmological Principle Here is a discussion of that particular fine-tuned parameter, with quotes by leading scientists as to its implications; The Anthropic Principle - Fine Tuning Of The Universe - Michael Strauss PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4323661/ As well, you state; Notice that your first statement specified “God”, while your second statement said “intelligence”. Moving the goalposts is a futile endeavor. Baby steps are needed before you can walk pach, so I would like for you to at least admit the necessity for intelligence. Or are you saying that you are comfortable with some type of Intelligence just so long as it is not the Judeo-Christian God. and if so, Just what type of transcendent Intelligence would you be comfortable with pach. to explain the origination and fine-tuning of the universe?,,, And if not please tell me the many materialistic conjectures that you claim have been postulated.bornagain77
February 23, 2011
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bornagain77, you said: “The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance.” I responded: "Not true. Some other ‘theories’ (actually just guesses) are not only possible but many have been posited/postulated." Then you said: "Pachyaena, care to elaborate on what ‘non-materialistic’ theory has been postulated that did not involve intelligence. I would really like to hear your take on the matter!" Notice that your first statement specified "God", while your second statement said "intelligence". Moving the goalposts is a futile endeavor.Pachyaena
February 23, 2011
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bornagain77 said: "....the mass density of the universe is balanced to within 1 part in 10^60, which means that if the universe would have one been 1 grain of sand larger are smaller during the big bang, we would not be here for the universe would have either crushed into oblivion or accelerated to fast to allow life to be possible." What evidence do you have of this?Pachyaena
February 23, 2011
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Pach you state; 'Science has a materialistic position, whether I do or not. Science should only be interested in material things. Otherwise it wouldn’t be science.' and yet 'science' has rigorously falsified materialism! https://uncommondescent.com/evolution/evolution-and-global-warming-some-underexamined-parallels/#comment-372911 so pach what is a 'scientist', as you have narrowly defined him/her to accord to your own worldview, to do when his working presumption is shown to be false? Should he just pretend that materialism is not falsified?bornagain77
February 23, 2011
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F/N: As with Jn 1:1, the remarks in Rom 1 are scientifically quite relevant and empirically testable. While materialists were able to strut their claims that life comes from chemical noise filtered by survival, and while they could indulge the idea of an eternal observed cosmos, they were quite content to clam how modern origins science made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist. But, once it was seen -- oops -- that life is based on a digital code implemented through step by step algorithms in a self-replicating device with metabolic capacity, and once it was seen that the cosmos that sets up that C-chemistry cell based life, is very carefully fine-tuned for that, and credibly had a beginning, suddenly we hear about making sure thsat no connexions ever be drawn by anyone, any time from science to religion. H'mm, do we get to say, then that no connexions ever be drawn by anyone, any time from science to irreligion? Of course, not . . . science must pretend that all is explainable on matter, energy, space and time interacting without intelligent direction, on chance plus mechanical necessity. See the real agenda problem?kairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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Oops on some links: (Cf here, here and here)kairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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F/N: BD, of course, we all may have some degree of awareness of or relationship with our common Father! Here is how Locke cited Hooker from his Ecclesiastical Polity in his 2nd essay on civil govt, Ch 2 sect 5, to ground modern liberty and democracy in our being equally made in God's image and equally being under the core principles of moral government:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
Similarly, when he set out to ground our capacity to know, Locke in the Introduction sect 5 of his essay on human understanding, said:
Men have reason to be well satisfied with what God hath thought fit for them, since he hath given them (as St. Peter says [NB: i.e. 2 Pet 1:2 - 4]) pana pros zoen kaieusebeian, whatsoever is necessary for the conveniences of life and information of virtue; and has put within the reach of their discovery, the comfortable provision for this life, and the way that leads to a better. How short soever their knowledge may come of an universal or perfect comprehension of whatsoever is, it yet secures their great concernments [Prov 1: 1 - 7], that they have light enough to lead them to the knowledge of their Maker, and the sight of their own duties [cf Rom 1 - 2, Ac 17, etc, etc]. Men may find matter sufficient to busy their heads, and employ their hands with variety, delight, and satisfaction, if they will not boldly quarrel with their own constitution, and throw away the blessings their hands are filled with, because they are not big enough to grasp everything . . . It will be no excuse to an idle and untoward servant [Matt 24:42 - 51], who would not attend his business by candle light, to plead that he had not broad sunshine. The Candle that is set up in us [Prov 20:27] shines bright enough for all our purposes . . . If we will disbelieve everything, because we cannot certainly know all things, we shall do muchwhat as wisely as he who would not use his legs, but sit still and perish, because he had no wings to fly.
Nor is this sort of reasoning exactly news, circa 1690. Locke was subtly alluding to the teaching of the Apostle Paul in the Epistle to the Romans, Chs 1, 2 and 13. Let me cite Amplified Bible: _____________ >>Rom 1: 19 . . . that which is known about God is evident to [[people]] and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them. 20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification],(B) 21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they [[too often]] did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves]. 23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles. 24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their [own] hearts to sexual impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves [abandoning them to the degrading power of sin], 25Because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed forever! . . . . Rom 2:6For He [[God]] will render to every man according to his works [justly, as his deeds deserve]:(A) 7To those who by patient persistence in well-doing [[b]springing from piety] seek [unseen but sure] glory and honor and [[c]the eternal blessedness of] immortality, He will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and self-willed and disobedient to the Truth [[i.e. what degree of access to the truth about God and yourself and our world have you had, what should you do about it, and what have you done about it? (Cf here, a href = "http://www.angelfire.com/pro/kairosfocus/resources/Selective_Hyperskepticism.htm#ntcase">here and a href = "http://nicenesystheol.blogspot.com/2010/11/unit-1-biblical-foundations-of-and-core.html#u1_intro">here)]] but responsive to wickedness, there will be indignation and wrath . . . . 13For it is not merely hearing the Law [read] that makes one righteous before God, but it is the doers of the Law who will be held guiltless and acquitted and justified. 14When Gentiles who have not the [divine] Law do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, since they do not have the Law. 15They show that the essential requirements of the Law are written in their hearts and are operating there, with which their consciences (sense of right and wrong) also bear witness; and their [moral] [e]decisions (their arguments of reason, their condemning or approving [f]thoughts) will accuse or perhaps defend and excuse [them] 16On that day when, as my Gospel proclaims, God by Jesus Christ will judge men in regard to [g]the things which they conceal (their hidden thoughts) . . . . Rom 13:8Keep out of debt and owe no man anything, except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor [who practices loving others] has fulfilled the Law [relating to one's fellowmen, meeting all its requirements]. 9The commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, You shall not covet (have an evil desire), and any other commandment, are summed up in the single command, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.(B) 10Love does no wrong to one's neighbor [it never hurts anybody]. Therefore love meets all the requirements and is the fulfilling of the Law. [[Double parentheses added to the clarifying parhentheses used by AMP]]>> _____________ So, we all can sense the reality of God and the pull to pour common Father, from the world without and our own constitution of conscious mind, responsible thought, choice and conscience within. The crucial question, is how have we responded to the truth we have access to and know or should know. Have we sought it, or fled it? Penitently persisted in it even when we stumble, or abandoned it? Distorted it or rejected it? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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4 --> In fact, the real problem, obviously, is that FSCO/I is on abundant evidence a very well warranted sign of intelligence in action; but on matters linked to origins, that may point in directions that the materialists who dominate scientific and linked educational, media and policy influencing institutions, are uncomfortable. So, they have resorted to smear tactics to change the subject and demonise those they differ with, but whose claims they plainly cannot address on the merits. 5 --> Newsflash 2: ALL THEORETICAL EXPLANATIONS OR MODELS, OR LAWS OF SCIENCE ARE INFERENCES TO BEST CURRENT, EMPIRICALLY ANCHORED EXPLANATIONS. So, to dismiss an inference [especially to the deep past of origins, which is inherently unobservable] because it is an inference, is a bit of selective hyperskepticism. If it were consistently applied, there would be no origins science for us to discuss, and in fact there would be no theories in science or laws of science either. 6 --> Newton said it well in Opticks, Query 31 (which you were pointed to already), when he laid out the basic generic scientific method more or less like it is taught in primary school:
As in Mathematicks, so in Natural Philosophy, the Investigation of difficult Things by the Method of Analysis, ought ever to precede the Method of Composition. This Analysis consists in making Experiments and Observations, and in drawing general Conclusions from them by Induction, and admitting of no Objections against the Conclusions, but such as are taken from Experiments, or other certain Truths. For Hypotheses [empty metaphysical speculations] are not to be regarded in experimental Philosophy. And although the arguing from Experiments and Observations by Induction be no Demonstration of general Conclusions; yet it is the best way of arguing which the Nature of Things admits of, and may be looked upon as so much the stronger, by how much the Induction is more general. And if no Exception occur from Phaenomena, the Conclusion may be pronounced generally. But if at any time afterwards any Exception shall occur from Experiments, it may then begin to be pronounced with such Exceptions as occur. By this way of Analysis we may proceed from Compounds to Ingredients, and from Motions to the Forces producing them; and in general, from Effects to their Causes, and from particular Causes to more general ones, till the Argument end in the most general. This is the Method of Analysis: And the Synthesis consists in assuming the Causes discover'd, and establish'd as Principles, and by them explaining the Phaenomena proceeding from them, and proving the Explanations.
7 --> this can be summed up: initial observations lead to credible facts to be explained. These may be explained as being consequences of an acting force or pattern or object etc, the explanation is subjected to onward tests by experiment or observation, and is provisionally accepted if empirically reliable. Eventually, there may be high but not closed-minded confidence in it. 8 --> Ironically for the huffing and puffing on scientific thought and "religion," in the very same query, Newton also said:
Now by the help of [[the laws of motion], all material Things seem to have been composed of the hard and solid Particles above-mention'd, variously associated in the first Creation by the Counsel of an intelligent Agent. For it became him who created them to set them in order. And if he did so, it's unphilosophical to seek for any other Origin of the World, or to pretend that it might arise out of a Chaos by the mere Laws of Nature; though being once form'd, it may continue by those Laws for many Ages . . . . And if natural Philosophy in all its Parts, by pursuing this Method, shall at length be perfected, the Bounds of Moral Philosophy will be also enlarged. For so far as we can know by natural Philosophy what is the first Cause, what Power he has over us, and what Benefits we receive from him, so far our Duty towards him, as well as that towards one another, will appear to us by the Light of Nature. ”
9 --> Newton also reasoned along much the same lines in his General Scholium to his Principia. 10 --> Principia being, of course the work that put the scientific revolution in its firm footing, through advancing the Laws of Motion and of universal gravitation, with the invention of calculus hovering in the background. Indeed, therein, he observed:
. . . This most beautiful system [i.e. the solar system understood in light of the Newtonian synthesis] of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being . . . . This Being governs all things, not as the soul of the world, but as Lord over all; and on account of his dominion he is wont to be called Lord God pantokrator , or Universal Ruler . . . . It is allowed by all that the Supreme God exists necessarily; and by the same necessity he exists always, and every where. [i.e. N accepts the cosmological argument to God.] . . . . Blind metaphysical necessity, which is certainly the same always and every where, could produce no variety of things. [i.e necessity does not produce contingency] All that diversity of natural things which we find suited to different times and places could arise from nothing but the ideas and will of a Being necessarily existing. [That is, implicitly rejects chance, Plato's third alternative and explicitly infers to the Designer of the Cosmos.] But, by way of allegory, God is said to see, to speak, to laugh, to love, to hate, to desire, to give, to receive, to rejoice, to be angry, to fight, to frame, to work, to build; for all our notions of God are taken from. the ways of mankind by a certain similitude, which, though not perfect, has some likeness, however. And thus much concerning God; to discourse of whom from the appearances of things, does certainly belong to Natural Philosophy.
11 --> The design-oriented context of Newton's thought could hardly be more explicit. And, I see no signs of a repudiation of Newton's work as unscientific religious rubbish tending to establish a right-wing theocratic tyranny. In short, what is going on regarding the design inference is slanderous rhetorical talking points and bigotry, not sound thinking. 12 --> Such poisonous bigotry needs to be exposed, shamed and corrected, not mollycoddled. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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P, Re:
The point I’m trying to get across is that science will not accept a religious [materialistic atheism] based idea. I know, you said that ID [methodological naturalism] is scientific and that religious [atheistical] people are drawn to it because they think it helps to verify their beliefs. But, and this is a big but, as long as religious [atheistical] comments of any kind are made in any article, discussion, or debate about ID [origins science], ID [origins science] will be thought of (by science and science supporters) as merely a religious [materialistic] idea and agenda.
See the ever so revealing inconsistency? In fact, you are again reiterating the attempted redefinition of science as applied -- thus, a priori -- materialistic philosophy that tries to explain reality from hydrogen to humans on evolutionary materialistic models. Then, you are multiplying this by the slander that seeks to ideologically smear and dismiss the design inference without having to address actual evidence and inference to best empirical explanation of a very significant class of facts, namely functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information. Some correctives are in order: 1 --> News flash. As the strikeout and substitute markup above shows, your remark is a reiteration of a repeatedly corrected, bigotry driven materialist propaganda line. As I have warned, the smear that design thought is creationism in disguise, in a lab coat, and that it is thus an agenda to impose a right-wing "fundamentalist" theocratic tyranny is a vicious, libellous slander. Including, a slander on creationists in particular and Christians in general. Those who indulge in it or enable it and closed-mindedly insist on it in the teeth of cogent correction thereby expose themselves for what they are: uncivil, disrespectful of other people, as well as of the truth or fairness, and destructive. 2 --> Here is what ID is, in essence, as aptly summed up by the New World Encyclopedia 101 article on ID, a much better introduction than the ideologically loaded, evolutionary materialistic Wiki article:
Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature. [Cf Berlinsky's remarks, and even some hints from Hoyle on cosmological fine tuning] As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer, so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans) [and, we should not put too much store on optimality in design, robustness and overall balance on trade-offs are a relevant and different design intent]. ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. [which, given the dominance of a priori Sagan-Lewontin type evolutionary materialism in various institutions, is enough to trigger a revolution in thought] It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). [parenthestical comments added]
3 --> A civil response, would be to address this on the merits. If you disagree, show why; especially by showing how FSCO/I can come about by undirected chance and/or mechanical necessity. Cf the UD post here, and the onward linked series. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
February 23, 2011
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bornagain77 said: "pach, if you ever do decide to fully defend the materialistic position you want so desperately to be true (so I guess that you may continue to imagine you are the ‘cherished’ son of primordial slime instead of a ‘despicable’ son of almighty God???),, ..." Science has a materialistic position, whether I do or not. Science should only be interested in material things. Otherwise it wouldn't be science. I really don't care whether I'm evolved from primordial slime or a creation of a God. It doesn't effect my life either way. And besides, what's so bad about slime? If you believe that God is the creator and designer of everything, he created and designed slime too! I guess he must have thought that slime is a good and necessary thing. You apparently believe that you are above slime and all other things. That's typical of many religious people. To me, that's complete arrogance. There is nothing in nature that isn't important and as valuable as anything else. If anything, humans are a destructive force on nature and will likely become extinct long before slime. Nature did just fine before there were humans and it will do just fine when we are extinct. Nature isn't here for the benefit of us, just like it wasn't there for the benefit of the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs are extinct, and nature is still around. Many other things are extinct, and nature is still around. Even when this planet is consumed by the Sun, nature will still be around, in the rest of the universe.Pachyaena
February 23, 2011
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Sonfaro, I understand your points. The point I'm trying to get across is that science will not accept a religious based idea. I know, you said that ID is scientific and that religious people are drawn to it because they think it helps to verify their beliefs. But, and this is a big but, as long as religious comments of any kind are made in any article, discussion, or debate about ID, ID will be thought of (by science and science supporters) as merely a religious idea and agenda. It's one thing to imagine that ID supports certain religious beliefs. It's quite another to inject a God and/or religion into articles, discussions, or debates about ID. Consider this: I'm discussing something scientific with a scientist. Let's say it's the evolution of horses. I say that the evidence for the evolution of horses fits well with my belief in unicorns and the unicorn God. What would the scientist think of that? Now, let's say that a lot of people connect unicorns and the unicorn God to the evolution of horses, and at least some of them want to have stories about unicorns and the unicorn God taught in public schools and to be considered in laws and government. What would the scientist think of that, and what would other people who don't believe in unicorns and a unicorn God think of that? The evolution of horses is considered well established and is accepted by science. Unicorns and unicorn Gods are not. Neither is ID. ID doesn't have anywhere near the evidence that horse evolution has. Even if horse evolution were considered a religious thing that is connected to unicorns and a unicorn God by one or more people, the evolution of horses could stand on its own and survive as a scientific theory. ID doesn't have that sort of standing. ID has been put forth as having a connection to God and religion from the beginning by most of its adherents and, if anything, there are even more people now who are connecting it to a God and religion. It is virtually impossible to find a discussion about ID that doesn't include a bunch of religious stuff. As I've said before, if ID adherents want SCIENCE to accept ID as a scientific theory, it must be completely disconnected from Gods or religion, and that includes leaving Gods and religion out of any article, discussion, or debate about it. What I think about ID doesn't matter to science. What matters to science is the evidence and the disconnection from Gods and religions. On another note, I would agree that some inferences made by science shouldn't be made and are based on speculation or guesses. That irritates me. Some scientists go overboard in their claims and conclusions. I've complained about it on some so-called science forums and was attacked and banned for my comments. I don't like it when anyone stretches what is actually known and speaks as though it's a proven fact.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed: You said, "I hate to break it to you; you have no access to special powers of understanding. You are just as free and limited as anyone else. Sorry." You're putting words into my mouth. I never claimed to have any special powers of understanding. My only claim is that I have seen some small portion of the truth. Way earlier in this thread, I quoted the Sufi saying, "Knowledge is not acquired, it is given." That was taken to mean that it is given by a guru (understandably, actually, since I didn't explain it further). But that is not the meaning. What is meant is that it is given by God. And what that means is that from time to time in each of our journeys Home, some of the veils are lifted and a portion of the truth stands revealed. My firm belief is that we are all made in the image and likeness of God. I take that very seriously. That means, among other things, that we each have within us the capability of knowing everything, and furthermore, eventually every one of us will. But as I explained above, it is part of the purpose of creation that we forget when we embark on physical existence. The remembering comes in bits and pieces, so that we and God can savor it together. I am not special. Or more precisely, we are all special, every single one of us.Bruce David
February 22, 2011
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More than *once. Bah, it's time to sleep. >:(Sonfaro
February 22, 2011
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pach, if you ever do decide to fully defend the materialistic position you want so desperately to be true (so I guess that you may continue to imagine you are the 'cherished' son of primordial slime instead of a 'despicable' son of almighty God???),, this is the falsification of reductive materialism here; The Failure Of Local Realism - Materialism - Alain Aspect - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4744145 The falsification for local realism (materialism) was recently greatly strengthened: Physicists close two loopholes while violating local realism - November 2010 Excerpt: The latest test in quantum mechanics provides even stronger support than before for the view that nature violates local realism and is thus in contradiction with a classical worldview. http://www.physorg.com/news/2010-11-physicists-loopholes-violating-local-realism.html The following articles show that even atoms (Ions) are subject to teleportation: Of note: An ion is an atom or molecule in which the total number of electrons is not equal to the total number of protons, giving it a net positive or negative electrical charge. Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.asp Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts and pach, here is the falsification of non-reductive materialism; Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/bornagain77
February 22, 2011
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GWARGH!!! Spelling errors. Sorry everyone. To Pach in particular: I'm not sure if I was clear enough in my post to explain my position and I'll likely have to reword it tomorrow. I do want to reiterate my earlier statement regarding you however. While I disagree with quite a bit that you have to say, and despite the fact that you've ticked me off more than one in this thread (heck, you're the reason I came on board in the first place. I was 108!) You have managed to be the first online atheist/agnostic/skeptic whatever who managed to be mostly civil. And while it appears (to me at least) that you may have a God-complex... I don't know for sure, just what it seems like... I do appreciate having a civil conversation with you. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Dude, I thought I adressed this already. I'm sorry If I wasn't clear, but you'll have to pardon my frustration. "My “complaint” isn’t simply about ID being linked to a God or religion. It’s about ID being called a scientific theory that has nothing to do with a God or religion while it is being linked to a God and religion." It’s either a scientific idea or it’s a religious idea. It can’t be both. Trying to disguise a religious idea (or agenda) as a scientific idea (or theory) is dishonest and will not fool science." Again: Religious folks like myself, like BA'77, like other Christians on this board flock to the SCIENTIFIC THEORY that our world was DESIGNED because it affirms our worldview. We already believed there was a designer - now suddenly there seems to be evidence for him in nature, in space, in physics, all around. You'll simply have to forgive us for being excited about this. Of course ID has no real say who the creator is. Most of us have already... for lack of a better word... "imagined" what he/she/it is already. For Bruce it's the idea that we are all part of God (Bruce if I'm wrong and got Pantheism confused somehow feel free to correct me man :) ). For me it's the God of the New Testament. For some Jewish rabbi out there it's the God of the Torrah. For some stoned out dude in Cali it's probably an alien or something. The SCIENCE behind ID makes NO CLAIMS as to who the Creator is. Those who are already Religious may make all the claims we want (and trust me, we will.) ID is compatible with all of them... From Deism to Pantheism. But that's all it is. Compatable. Seeing the designs in action doesn't directly point to what the designer would be like. ID is most definitely a science. And maybe we religious folks can tone it down a bit (it'll be hard, believe me.) But if your worldview already accepted that there's probably a creator you'd be excited too! Does that makes sense Pach? It's why your appeal to seperate ID followers and supporters from ID seems off-base to most of us (at least to me). You seem to be asking us not to be religious, and then saying the science isn't science when we refuse. The science behind ID didn't change any when Religious people got on board. It just got followers whose worldview you disagree with. Does that make sense? I hope so. I'm a bit annoyed that you appear to ignore my point everytime BA77 or someone posts something, so if I sound ranty I appologize. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Pach, I fixed your last post for you. I couldn't have said it better yourself :)
My “complaint” isn’t simply about materialism being linked to science or enlightenment. It’s about materialism being called scientific and enlightened when its proponents ignore the observable evidence and attack religion instead. It’s either a scientific idea or it’s a religious idea. It can’t be both. Trying to disguise a religious idea (or agenda) as a scientific idea (or theory) is dishonest and will not fool anyone.
Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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