Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
Kairosfocus: You said, "That does not begin to reckon with the experience of millions across the ages of living encounter and relationship with God, through penitent faith in Christ." You forgot to mention all the millions across the ages who have experienced a living encounter and relationship with God who were NOT Christians. Here are five examples whose experiences are available through books currently in print: Rumi, Ibn al Arabi, and Hafiz (muslims), and Yogananda and his teacher, Sri Yukteswar (both Hindus). Born Again, Brent, Upright BiPed, StephenB, et al: Don't you know that reason is powerless to convince anyone of the existence of God, much less of the truth of the Christians beliefs? If all those proofs of God's existence were really effective, don't you think that intelligent people everywhere would already be convinced? For whatever reason, they are obviously unpersuasive to anyone who is not already a believer. Pachyaena: You said at one point something like, "Nobody knows whether God exists or not." I submit that you do not know that. There have been many, many people who have had a direct experience of the presence of God (using the term God in its general sense, not any particular conception of Him/Her/It such as the Christian one). There is a book devoted to a detailed exploration of that subject, titled Cosmic Consciousness (I forget the author's name). They report that this experience is as powerful and real as any experience of "ordinary" reality such as seeing a sunset or hearing a symphony. On what basis do you deny that such experiences lead to knowledge whereas the experiences brought to us through our senses do lead to knowledge?Bruce David
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
12:53 PM
12
12
53
PM
PDT
What he said. :)Sonfaro
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
12:32 PM
12
12
32
PM
PDT
Brent, The issue has been stated as such: If everything in the material universe is Contingent, then there must be at least one thing that is Necessary, and that Necessary thing cannot be Contingent on this material universeUpright BiPed
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
11:35 AM
11
11
35
AM
PDT
"The thing I’m bumping up against is the idea of something outside our universe. What does that even mean? If it’s outside our universe then what separates our universe from that other universe? Not space. Not time. Maybe I’m answering the part about it not even being possible to know if another universe existed." For me, the creator of the laws of our universe would not be subject to them. Like a programer who writes a set of rules into a video game. The world of "Super Mario" adheres to a set of rules: Mushrooms make you grow. Plants give you hadoken powers. Touching creatures who don't like you will result in instant death. These rules apply in the world of the game. They don't apply to the games designer. That's a weird way to describe it and probably to simplistic but it's all I could think of at the time. I've got work in a minute so I can't dwell to much. I'll give it some thought though... "One thing I know for an absolute fact, however, is that it is way past my bedtime." Go to sleep!!!! :) - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
10:13 AM
10
10
13
AM
PDT
On the subject of the infinite: It is most improbable that there are infinite things IN this universe. Beyond it? That is a different ball game.
I don't think that "beyond the universe" has any meaning. First off, there is no possible way to know even if there were other universes (was just listening to something interesting about that, but not too attentively so I can't lay out the argument). Second, it seems to me that an infinite number of actual things would necessarily completely fill any universe that possibly existed to contain them, but then the actual things would have to stop somewhere because they would have to be contained within that universe, but that would mean there were only a finite number of those things. So, to have an actual number of infinite things to exist, it would be necessary for the universe that contained them to itself be infinite, which would mean that it is the universe in which we live. But, we have evidence that our universe isn't infinite. Hmmmmm. That was kinda off the top of my head, but it makes sense to me in one way at least, though maybe not in another. The thing I'm bumping up against is the idea of something outside our universe. What does that even mean? If it's outside our universe then what separates our universe from that other universe? Not space. Not time. Maybe I'm answering the part about it not even being possible to know if another universe existed. One thing I know for an absolute fact, however, is that it is way past my bedtime.Brent
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
09:41 AM
9
09
41
AM
PDT
Pach, forgot to address this: "Many, many Gods and religious beliefs have been invented. Are they all true? Which one is true, and which ones aren’t? And why?” Quite a few of the worlds religions have the same God actually. Heck, I'd venture that most of the worlds religions believe in the same God. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Bahi, ect. Heck, some Hindu are saying that their God is ours too. We don't differ on God Pach. We differ on what to do with that knowledge. Should we be as strict as, say, Muslims in Pakistan? Or should we be laxidasical like many American 'Christians' today? That's the real question between theists. Not what God there is. But what that God would have of us. As to why I'm a Christian, from my understanding it's the simplest of the faiths out there (At least it appears that it's supposed to be that way to me.) Know that there is a God. Know that he loves you to sent an intercessory sacrifice so you wouldn't have to keep killing sheep. Know that he is easily accessible. And know that he wants you to be kind. Really, Christianity is just Theistic Humanism... and is often more Humanist than Secular Humanists! (How many Humanist groups showed up to help Haiti? I don't mean give donations to the organizations set up to help. I mean how many actually stopped what they were doing to help? I didn't hear of any. Maybe I'm wrong...) On a side note... I'm really annoyed a skeptic has me doing my weak apologetics on an science board. -_- - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
08:51 AM
8
08
51
AM
PDT
@Pach,
You obviously believe that an infinite universe or multiverse is impossible and illogical. Is your God finite, or infinite? Is anything about it finite? Going by your way of thinking, it would be impossible and illogical for God to be infinite in any way.
Wrong. "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:" The God of the Bible is not an infinite number of parts, much less an infinite number of material parts. The whole thing about "God" is that by definition He is understood to have created everything, which includes time, and He must therefore transcend time, and space, and matter. When we say God is infinite we mean so not in number of parts, but in that He transcends everything. He has no beginning or end.
If you rule out infinity before the search has begun (actually, it began long ago but isn’t finished and likely never will be), isn’t that an a priori conclusion?
No, because the ruling out of infinity has been done as a result of the search, not beforehand; the search has indicated unanswerably that an infinite regress is impossible, and likewise an actual infinite number of things is as well.
And if you rule out the possibility of a creator and/or designer, or another God, that isn’t your chosen God, isn’t that an a priori conclusion? And if you rule out the possibility of a strictly materialistic universe and evolution of life, isn’t that an a priori conclusion?
But, I didn't. So what is your excuse? Again, I've openly investigated the evidence, and as stated before, listened to the critics of my Christianity, and the evidence and logic has done nothing but strengthen my faith in the Bible. To make clear what I'm saying, the investigation that I've done in both listening to the critics of the Christian religion, and listening to materialist, Darwinist, atheistic proponents, have both led to a more firm foundation of belief in the Bible (though I don't know if there is really warrant to differentiate them).
The Gods people have invented are (or were) in the minds of those people. Animals think, but they don’t invent Gods, or if they do we’re not aware of it. People invent Gods because of fear and ignorance. Many, many Gods and religious beliefs have been invented. Are they all true? Which one is true, and which ones aren’t? And why? Gods are not invented by people because of logic. They aren’t based on facts. There is no evidence and no proof that any God that people have ever invented actually exists. It is illogical to believe that something exists in reality that has no basis in reality. And if something only exists in un-reality then it doesn’t really exist except in the imagination. I can imagine lots and lots of things but that doesn’t mean they actually exist. It’s possible that there’s an entity of some sort that is responsible for the creation and/or design of the universe but I don’t believe it’s the Christian God or any other Gods that people have conjured up. The stories in the Bible are ridiculous and totally illogical. People have never lived for hundreds of years, Noah’s Ark could not have held all the things it allegedly did. There’s no evidence of a global flood. Snakes can’t talk and dinosaurs didn’t live alongside humans. There’s no evidence or proof that ‘Jesus’ ever lived, and even if he did there’s no evidence or proof that he did any of things that are attributed to him. It’s all hearsay and exaggerated story telling. Religious beliefs are superstitious nonsense. Humans are obsessed with inventing monsters and ghosts and wizards and demons and angels and leprechauns and Gods. All that stuff may be entertaining, and it may make for profitable movies, TV shows, and books but they’re all just figments of the imagination. Reality is much more interesting and fulfilling.
I don't get you Pach. In some posts you come across as articulate and able to use your brains, but then you vomit out stuff like this. It is so stupid it doesn't even deserve a response. The sad thing is, you cannot possibly live your life as illogically and incoherently as your above statements. If you did, you'd inadvertently kill yourself. If you did, I'd actually and honestly call you a certified moron. But the actual case may be even worse, because you show that you really know better. I'm not saying you don't still have a chance for the prize I offered, but whatever the heck that was that I just skinned you for, as I said, doesn't even deserve a response. Try again if you'd like. You indicated you were busy and perhaps, therefore, you're just tired and didn't type things as well as you normally would have. If that's so, then I apologize, but you've given me no real reason yet to think that any rational thought has led to your conclusions about God and/or Christianity.Brent
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
08:36 AM
8
08
36
AM
PDT
Happy Washington's Birthday. Just got a break at work to check in. Interesting comments. I would like to add one thing. I did not invent the Christian God. I would never had invented a "god" who made so many specific and difficult demands on me! If I had a choice it would be a "god" who let me do what I want. I did not invent God. As I came up against problems in life there was no answer better than the Christian God. My choice was to believe or not. My beliefs would not change the reality one iota, but believing and living according to the demands of that belief surely make life much more understandable and joyous. God Bless everyone here. GesualdoGCS
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
08:30 AM
8
08
30
AM
PDT
Also, Pach. Just noticed this: "You obviously believe that an infinite universe or multiverse is impossible and illogical. Is your God finite, or infinite? Is anything about it finite? Going by your way of thinking, it would be impossible and illogical for God to be infinite in any way. Therefor, God must be finite. So, God had a beginning. Then who or what created God? And who or what created the who or what that created the who or what, ad infinitum?" The basic response (from a Christian at least) is that everything that has a beginning has a cause. Our universe appears to have a beginning. So our universe appears to have a cause. That cause would have to be outside of the laws it created on the inside. Thus, the rules of our universe wouldn't apply to our creator. (If I've gotten that wrong somebody correct me. That's how I remember the argument.) The "Who created the creator" argument has been done to death by other non-believers (I believe Dawkins did it in the God Delusion). It typically flounders when dealing with a Christian theist who actually paid attention during Sunday School. On the subject of the infinite: It is most improbable that there are infinite things IN this universe. Beyond it? That is a different ball game. You also say (and this ticked me off, 'cause you had been somewhat respectful before). "People invent Gods because of fear and ignorance. Many, many Gods and religious beliefs have been invented. Are they all true? Which one is true, and which ones aren’t? And why?" This is also a very basic Atheistic/Materialistic ASSUMPTION. It also has been done to death. From a Christian perspective, we have a saying. "God has not given us the spirit of fear." We(Christians) don't believe in God because we're afraid of the consequences (or at least we're not supposed to). We believe in God because we're hardwired to do so. To know of God is part of the programing. The natural response when seeing design in nature is to acknowldge the designer. C'mon dude, it's like you're taking one step forward and two steps back here. :( - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
08:04 AM
8
08
04
AM
PDT
Pach, Judging by your non-response, it seems you wish to ignore or avoid something in my post at 195. Please feel free to sneer at me for bringing it up. Perhaps you'd rather argue over Noah's ark than engage the evidence that ID brings to the table - that would be the standard response coming from your direction. For a materialist, it sucks when the observable evidence goes against you in such an obvious (and intractible) manner. I do wonder though about the internal strength it takes to ignore evidence on the one hand, yet maintain the air of enlightenment on the other. What refinement! Imagine someone like Anthony Flew; how much more a simpleton than you. Or perhaps even someone like Gladys Aylward; truly a miserably wasted life by your standard. Without equivocation, this must be true.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Hi Pach, You say: "Lots of things have a history but that doesn’t mean they have validity. In other words, just because people have believed something for a long time doesn’t make those beliefs true." The inverse is also true. Just because a thing is purported to have happened a long time ago doesn't mean that the thing is automatically false. An objective observer should be prepared to accept both theories in his/her search for truth as the evidence comes in. Which is what most of us appear to be asking of you (it's what I'm asking anyway.) - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
05:50 AM
5
05
50
AM
PDT
Pachyaena: I do not have a great deal of time just now, but will note a few quick points: 1 --> The basic distinction between object A and not-object A is an aspect of reality, that we recognise, we do not invent. Animals and plants for that matter have to respond to the same law, if they are to survive. Food A is not poison NON-A, to begin with. 2 --> Serious worldviews are to be assessed on comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory power [elegance vs ad hocness or simplisticness] in light of first principles of right reason and other warranted credible truths. Cf discussion here and onward. 3 --> To merely point out that a w/v, considered in isolation, has difficulties is not good enough as ALL WORLDVIEWS OF CONSEQUENCE HAVE DIFFICULTIES.
(And extreme skepticism does not make the starting gate, as it is self referentially incoherent: how do you know you cannot know? to then try the trick of selectively being hyper-skeptical falls into fatal inconsistency in warranting standards.)
4 --> I suggest you examine the basic historical evidence of the core Christian faith, e.g. starting here, and address whether you would prefer to let go of all knowledge of the past beyond several hundred years ago, and whether you can reasonably warrant such in public. If not, you are merely playing at selective hyperskepticism targetting the Christian faith. 5 --> If you do that, BTW, a lot of science would also collapse because the warrant for it depends crucially on historical evidence and inference from present to past. So would the court system. 6 --> As to your sneering "hearsay" dismissal of documentary evidence, I suggest you examine the tested rules of evidence summarised here, and reflect again on the consequences of selective hyperskepticism. 7 --> That does not begin to reckon with the experience of millions across the ages of living encounter and relationship with God, through penitent faith in Christ, which issued and issues in life-transforming, miracle-working power. I am one, and there are others in and around this blog, including the same BA 77 you often dismiss. BTW, the transforming power I speak of has strongly shaped out history for the good; for a start simply look up the life story of say William Wilberforce,and it will not hurt to look up the life story of Blaise Pascal too, or even Chuck Colson, and try out Mother Theresa and John Paul II, the Great -- and I say that as a convinced protestant. (One of the worst manifestations of bigotry in current times, is the cynically slanderous ongoing attempt to paint Christians as fascistic, destructive plagues on the earth.) G'day GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
05:45 AM
5
05
45
AM
PDT
Pachyaena, Even using the materialists very own line of reasoning for a infinite number of universes to explain to extreme fine-tuning of this universe guarantees to existence of God. This is because the materialists, in their appeal to a multiverse, grant the necessary premise for the ontological argument; The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance. Materialistic blind chance only escapes being completely crushed, by the overwhelming weight of evidence for design, by appealing to an infinity of other un-testable universes in which all other possibilities have been played out. Yet there is no hard physical evidence to support this blind chance conjecture. In fact, the 'infinite multiverse' conjecture suffers from some very serious flaws of logic. For instance exactly which laws of physics, arising from which material basis, are telling all the other natural laws in physics what, how and when, to do the many precise unchanging things they do in these other universes? Plus, if an infinite number of other possible universes must exist in order to explain the fine tuning of this one, then why is it not also infinitely possible for a infinitely powerful and transcendent Creator to exist? Using the materialist same line of reasoning for an infinity of multiverses to explain the extreme fine-tuning of this one we can surmise; If it is infinitely possible for God to exist then He, of 100% certainty, must exist no matter how small the probability is of His existence in one of these other infinity of universes, and since He certainly must exist, then all possibilities in all universes automatically become subject to Him since He is, by definition, All Powerful. To clearly illustrate the absurdity of what the materialists now consider their cutting edge science: The materialistic conjecture of an infinity of universes to explain the fine tuning of this one also insures the 100% probability of the existence of Pink Unicorns no matter how small the probability is of them existing. In fact a infinity of universes insures the existence of an infinity of Pink Unicorns an infinite number of times. Thus it is self-evident the materialists have painted themselves into a inescapable corner of logical absurdities in trying to find an escape from the Theistic implications we are finding for the fine-tuning of this universe. The preceding argument has actually been made into a formal philosophical proof: Ontological Argument For God From The Many Worlds Hypothesis - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4784641 God Is Not Dead Yet – William Lane Craig – Page 4 The ontological argument. Anselm’s famous argument has been reformulated and defended by Alvin Plantinga, Robert Maydole, Brian Leftow, and others. God, Anselm observes, is by definition the greatest being conceivable. If you could conceive of anything greater than God, then that would be God. Thus, God is the greatest conceivable being, a maximally great being. So what would such a being be like? He would be all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-good, and he would exist in every logically possible world. But then we can argue: 1. It is possible that a maximally great being (God) exists. 2. If it is possible that a maximally great being exists, then a maximally great being exists in some possible world. 3. If a maximally great being exists in some possible world, then it exists in every possible world. 4. If a maximally great being exists in every possible world, then it exists in the actual world. 5. Therefore, a maximally great being exists in the actual world. 6. Therefore, a maximally great being exists. 7. Therefore, God exists. Now it might be a surprise to learn that steps 2–7 of this argument are relatively uncontroversial. Most philosophers would agree that if God’s existence is even possible, then he must exist. So the whole question is: Is God’s existence possible? The atheist has to maintain that it’s impossible that God exists. He has to say that the concept of God is incoherent, like the concept of a married bachelor or a round square. But the problem is that the concept of God just doesn’t appear to be incoherent in that way. The idea of a being which is all-powerful, all knowing, and all-good in every possible world seems perfectly coherent. And so long as God’s existence is even possible, it follows that God must exist. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/july/13.22.html?start=4 I like the following concluding comment about the ontological argument from the Dr. Plantinga video: "God then is the Being that couldn't possibly not exit." Ontological Argument – Dr. Plantinga (3:50 minute mark) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCXvVcWFrGQ The fact is Pachyaena, the atheists are the ones who are making a baseless emotional appea, while the Theists are the ones sticking to the evidence, as is clearly illustrated here by Richard Dawkins and William Lane Craig; Richard Dawkins Lies About William Lane Craig AND Logic! - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1cfqV2tuOI 1. Argument From Contingency - God is the best explanation for why anything exists rather than nothing. 2. Kalam Cosmological Argument - God is the best explanation for the beginning of the universe. 3. Teleological Argument - God is the best explanation for the fine-tuning of the initial conditions of the universe for intelligent life. 4. Moral Argument - God is the best explanation for the existence of objective moral values and duties in the world,,, even for the existence of evil which is a departure from the way things 'ought' to be. 5. Ontological Argument - modal - The very possibility of God's existence entails that God exists. 6. Comprehensibility Argument - God is the best explanation for why the universe can be grasped and understood by the mind of man in the first place. 7. Law Like Structure Argument - God is the best explanation for why the universe obeys a set of invariant transcendent laws. Pachyaena, as for your argument from 'infinity'. Infinity is impossible for 'material' things, but is not for transcendent things, William Lane Craig - Hilbert's Hotel - The Absurdity Of An Infinite Regress Of 'Things' - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3994011/ Georg Cantor - The Mathematics Of Infinity - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4572335 Logic also dictates 'a decision' must have been made, by the 'transcendent, eternal, infinite information' from the primary timeless (eternal) reality 'It' inhabits, in order to purposely create a temporal reality with highly specified, irreducible complex, parameters from a infinite set of possibilities in the proper sequential order. Thus this infinite transcendent information, which is the primary reality of our reality, is shown to be alive by yet another line of evidence besides the necessity for a ‘first mover’ to explain quantum wave collapse. The First Cause Must Be A Personal Being - William Lane Craig - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/4813914 further note; Fibonacci Numbers – Euler’s Identity – The Fingerprint of God - video - (See video description for a look at Euler’s Identity) http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5988843/bornagain77
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
04:35 AM
4
04
35
AM
PDT
kairosfocus, "..think at all, we must be able to distinguish things (or else all would be confusion and chaos), and these laws immediately follow from that first act of thought." Does that apply to animals, or only humans? "In short, it is a relevant instance of the fallacy of composition to assume or infer that by attacking individual components and/or highlighting its particular difficulties, one can dispose of and dismiss a worldview case." Does that apply to any world view or only one that matches your own? "...it should be pointed out that the New Testament has been remarkably confirmed time and again by external evidence. This is not to say there are no problems; but to the unbiased observer, little doubt can be cast on the statement that archaeology has confirmed the [general] historical reliability of the New Testament." Wishful thinking. And even if archeology were to confirm the historical accuracy of the new testament (which is hasn't and can't), that doesn't mean it can confirm the accuracy of the beliefs put forth in the new testament, or the old testament. Lots of things have a history but that doesn't mean they have validity. In other words, just because people have believed something for a long time doesn't make those beliefs true.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
02:40 AM
2
02
40
AM
PDT
Brent, the concept of a multiverse doesn't necessarily assume that it's an infinite multiverse. You obviously believe that an infinite universe or multiverse is impossible and illogical. Is your God finite, or infinite? Is anything about it finite? Going by your way of thinking, it would be impossible and illogical for God to be infinite in any way. Therefor, God must be finite. So, God had a beginning. Then who or what created God? And who or what created the who or what that created the who or what, ad infinitum? If you rule out infinity before the search has begun (actually, it began long ago but isn't finished and likely never will be), isn't that an a priori conclusion? And if you rule out the possibility of a creator and/or designer, or another God, that isn't your chosen God, isn't that an a priori conclusion? And if you rule out the possibility of a strictly materialistic universe and evolution of life, isn't that an a priori conclusion? The Gods people have invented are (or were) in the minds of those people. Animals think, but they don't invent Gods, or if they do we're not aware of it. People invent Gods because of fear and ignorance. Many, many Gods and religious beliefs have been invented. Are they all true? Which one is true, and which ones aren't? And why? Gods are not invented by people because of logic. They aren't based on facts. There is no evidence and no proof that any God that people have ever invented actually exists. It is illogical to believe that something exists in reality that has no basis in reality. And if something only exists in un-reality then it doesn't really exist except in the imagination. I can imagine lots and lots of things but that doesn't mean they actually exist. It's possible that there's an entity of some sort that is responsible for the creation and/or design of the universe but I don't believe it's the Christian God or any other Gods that people have conjured up. The stories in the Bible are ridiculous and totally illogical. People have never lived for hundreds of years, Noah's Ark could not have held all the things it allegedly did. There's no evidence of a global flood. Snakes can't talk and dinosaurs didn't live alongside humans. There's no evidence or proof that 'Jesus' ever lived, and even if he did there's no evidence or proof that he did any of things that are attributed to him. It's all hearsay and exaggerated story telling. Religious beliefs are superstitious nonsense. Humans are obsessed with inventing monsters and ghosts and wizards and demons and angels and leprechauns and Gods. All that stuff may be entertaining, and it may make for profitable movies, TV shows, and books but they're all just figments of the imagination. Reality is much more interesting and fulfilling.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
February
02
Feb
22
22
2011
02:11 AM
2
02
11
AM
PDT
And forgot this concerning an actual number of infinite things.Brent
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:56 PM
7
07
56
PM
PDT
@Pachyaena, Forgot this part.
Me: “Not true. An actual number of infinite things is logically impossible.” Pach: What is not true in what I said? And are you saying that a multiverse is impossible?
You had said about the multiverse, "there’s no credible evidence to prove it one way or another.” And so, I was saying that that was an incorrect statement, since an actual infinite number of things is logically impossible. However, I did wonder if my response was correct in that I don't know if anyone out there is proposing a finite number of universes as apposed to an infinite number which I've always heard that the multiverse theory holds. Either way, it is very, very telling that you would withhold judgment on the multiverse theory since there is absolutely zero evidence for it, and which ultimately is only evading the question it purports to answer. The very reason the theory even exists is precisely because scientific evidence is leading unavoidably in the direction of a Beginner.Brent
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:49 PM
7
07
49
PM
PDT
@Pachyaena,
"I didn’t say that I think that a “God” is possible. I’ve said that I think a creator or designer of some sort is possible. I don’t believe that any of the Gods humans have invented are possible.
So, your problem is God, as I've been saying. At least now you've come out and said so (and in the process admitted your bias). Thank you for that, anyway. I'd just love to hear more about this: "I don’t believe that any of the Gods humans have invented are possible." Oh, please do elaborate on how you have come to a logical conclusion concerning this. Of course, the statement itself is correct, but it is so necessarily correct that it isn't even worth saying. You've only actually said that all things that were invented were invented. But, what you are trying to imply is that all the Gods that humans have proposed or believe in are invented in the minds of humans. I'm being completely 100% genuine here. If you can reason out that stance logically and without being circular I will send you a prize for your effort. Really, I will. In fact, not only will I send you a prize that you may not like (of course it will be something intended to change your mind), but I'll also send you something unrelated just for your enjoyment. So, I'm putting $15 worth of enjoyment prize, plus the book (or possibly video) that you may or may not enjoy, on the line here, and that's because I'm sure anything you can possibly say ultimately will reduce to circularity. As for rephrasing my earlier question to you: Why do you think it’s reasonable to rule out a priori (prior to the scientific investigation that we do in order to give us a conclusion to start with) any conclusion that any scientific observations may indicate or lead one to? In other words, why is it reasonable to rule out any possible answers before the search for answers is even begun? And please, don't start with examples analogous to, say, police investigations where they rule out some answers "before" they begin. When that happens, the real case is that the reason the answers are ruled out is because they have good reasons to do so, which reasons are in fact a part of the investigation, and therefore not really a priori. So, why is it good, or should it even be permissible, to rule out any conclusions to scientific inquiry before the inquiry even begins? If you already know that certain answers are not possible, then you must have some cogent argumentation for that fact, which is what people are trying to get you to produce here, but you have given zero. Man, I have so much more to say to you, but you are very unable to bear it.Brent
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:36 PM
7
07
36
PM
PDT
Pach: "To me, it would depend on exactly what material things they are proposing or claiming." We certainly don't have to wonder about these things. There is very little to clarify. The proposition is that only unguided material forces are at work in the cosmos (or even before the cosmos existed). This is what men and women who are authorities associated with such knowledge say they've come to know. They pursue this distinction within their associations and in their interaction with the public. It's an authority which is largly granted by a public that has questions, but that accomodation comes with responsibilities. They have a responsibility to be honest about what they say - and not just honest in their personal beliefs, but also factually honest in the state of knowledge. They also have a responsibility to correct errors in public understanding of that state of knowledge. So, should they be believed? Pach: "And also to me, it’s not who proposes or claims it that counts, it’s what they propose or claim and what evidence they have." Really? I tought you were making a rather extended case that there are certain people who hold certain beliefs, and these people's opinions are obviously secondary to those that hold an opposing belief. One belief is valid while the other in suspect. In any case, once again, there is very little to clarify. Since they have given an answers to the questions, they are saying whatever is necessary to explain their authority over the subject. This should be obvious.Upright BiPed
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:33 PM
7
07
33
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed asked: "Pach, should the materialism proposed by a wide swath of science be believed, given that most of its adherents are materialist?" To me, it would depend on exactly what material things they are proposing or claiming. And also to me, it's not who proposes or claims it that counts, it's what they propose or claim and what evidence they have.Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
04:53 PM
4
04
53
PM
PDT
PS: You might want to also look here on building a worldview up from first principles of right reason. Soundness, cogency and warrant -- the very stuff of reasonableness -- are not mere matters of opinion. PPS: And, to think that those who differ from you are "crazy," "nuts," delusional," or the like, etc as you note above is not a good sign. Indeed, it uncomfortably echoes the smug bigotry of Dawkins' "ignorant, stupid, insane or wicked."kairosfocus
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
04:43 PM
4
04
43
PM
PDT
P: being reasonable is not an issue of whether or not people agree with you. Cf the parable of the cave, here. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
04:36 PM
4
04
36
PM
PDT
kairosfocus said: "So, it is a REASONABLE step — not mere optional opinion — to infer from FSCO/I to design as cause, and onwards to the credible presence of an intelligence capable of making the design." Even IF you're right, that doesn't mean that everyone is going to agree with you. No matter how reasonable you think something is, there will always be people who think it's unreasonable. Many people think that the story of Noah's Ark is reasonable. I think it's crazy. Many people think that a guy named Jesus died for everyone's sins and rose from the dead. I think that's crazy. Many people think that life came from from strictly materialistic chemical processes. I think it's possible. Many people think that ghosts, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, and fairies are real. I think they're delusional. Many people think that their God helps them to win football games or score a touchdown. I think they're nuts. Many people think that nature has an inexhaustible supply of resources for human consumption. I think they are ignorant, selfish, and arrogant. Many people like red cars. I prefer other colors. Many people think that wolves are bloodthirsty, human baby killers. I know that those people are stupid, fearful morons. Many people think that their religion is THE religion and that their God is THE god. I think that they're selfish, arrogant, and delusional. Many people love to eat mushrooms. I don't. Many people like to kill animals. I think they're barbarians. Many people like Glenn Beck. I think he's a maniac. Many people think that good morals are inseparable from belief in a God and religion. I don't. Many people think they know everything, or at least everything that needs to be known. I don't. There are about six and a half billion people on this planet, which means there are about six and a half billion opinions.Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
04:19 PM
4
04
19
PM
PDT
Pach, should the materialism proposed by a wide swath of science be believed, given that most of its adherents are materialist?Upright BiPed
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
From No. 178: I said: "On the subject of a multiverse, I don’t take it very seriously. It makes for an interesting thought or conversation but there’s no credible evidence to prove it one way or another." Brent said: "Not true. An actual number of infinite things is logically impossible." What is not true in what I said? And are you saying that a multiverse is impossible?Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
03:16 PM
3
03
16
PM
PDT
Brent, I didn't say that I think that a "God" is possible. I've said that I think a creator or designer of some sort is possible. I don't believe that any of the Gods humans have invented are possible. I am able to separate the concept of ID from religion or any Gods in my mind, but it is not my problem that many people do associate ID with a God or religion, especially when most ID adherents make it obvious that they are religious and believe in a God. You asked: "Second, why do you think (and pretty, pretty please, at the very least, respond to this question) it’s reasonable to rule out a priori any conclusion that any scientific observations may indicate or lead one to?" I'm not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase it?Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
03:09 PM
3
03
09
PM
PDT
GEM,
It is time that we expose the evolutionary materialistic, question-begging ideological straight-jacket being imposed on science, and it is time that we exposed the inexcusable, slanderous bigotry of those who are projecting what they know or should know are false accusations of theocratic tyrannical intent.
Who exactly is "we"? And to this comment:
FYI LT, I had to put myself on the line literally to deal with Communists, DOUBLE SHAME ON YOU for making me have to say that explicitly!
What a cheap and cowardly thing for you to write--knowing full well that whatever response I write will be moderated out and never appear here (as an earlier comment of mine seems to have done)--that I have "made" you say anything! No, sir, I have not "made" you do anything. You are the author of your own behavior. Don't blame me because your watchmaker analogies ultimately fail and people generally don't take them seriously. Don't blame me for the "tyrannical" perception that gets attached to religions and sects and groups. I laid out a case for why your signs post was wrongheaded on several levels. You distort Peirce: that's a fact. You employ a nuanced but ultimately flawed analogy: that's a fact. You use biased language to steer the reader to the conclusion you want: that's a fact. You consider no alternative scenarios or possible objections in your post: that's a fact. You say I'm tossing out red herrings, straw men, and ad hominems. Honestly, would you please grow up? Deal with the arguments instead of crying foul all the time. If you want to play basketball with me, you are occasionally going to get fouled. Deal with it and move on, maybe consider whether you want to get out of the game. One way to deal with it is this: revise your post on signs. In over 20 years of writing and publishing, I can tell you I have learned that every criticism on a piece has value and should lead to a change. I anticipate you will bring up that time earlier when you got offended, probably rightly, at an indirect Torquemada snipe I had made. Yes, I indeed changed a bit of what I had originally written, although I kept the central snipe as it was for reasons I explained. I understand you didn't and don't like the reasons, but that's the end of the line. I sought to understand your points, I incorporated that feedback and made the changes I felt best represented the truth. So, instead of taking cheap shots at me when my voice will never be heard at UD (I'm tempted to dare you to publish this post in a timely manner, if ever), why don't you revise and improve your signs post. I would really like that. I genuinely think that there's a contribution to be made by that post of yours--it's just not fully cooked yet. I think you make people like me out to be the boogeyman at least as much as you think we do it to you. Perhaps we all can simmer down. I'm asking you to reconsider and revise your signs post because I think it would improve the thing. Take the advice or reject it, no problem to me. I'm sure you have advice for me and "those of my ilk." Well, let's have it. LT (Monday, 21 Feb 2011, 11:45 am EST)LarTanner
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
08:46 AM
8
08
46
AM
PDT
F/N: I should add, that my white Irish and Scottish ancestors, as well as my Indian ones, were also seen as inferior races by many of their English oppressors. (I'se be a Jewmakie after all, a real gumbo.) Dehumanisation of the victim is ever the resort of the oppressor. Indeed, today, with the rise in porn, it is very evident that the whole idea is a dehumanisation and desensitisation exercise, opening the way for an amoral chaos. And, ever so many are content to allow these skunks to get away with degrading our daughters, sisters and even mothers and -- God help us -- Grandmothers now, in the name of claimed freedom and the claim that morality is an oppressive imposition; morals after all are relative to power balances and we have no real freedom and responsibility of will. Just as Plato warned in his The Laws Bk X, 2,300 years ago. (I don't need a scientific argument to find evolutionary materialism wanting; its simple amorality contrasted with my experience of myself as a morally governed creature who has a capacity to think, know and reason for himself, and the duty to do so towards the truth and the right, is more than enough to give it short shrift as necessarily false and utterly absurd. of course that does not mean that evolutionary mechanisms were not in the arsenal of the designer of life as we experience it, but then even modern young earth creationists accept that, and see that kinds were made to adapt to niches. The problem is with over-claiming evidences, and with imposing worldviews and begging questions then expelling those who beg to differ. At least, in Mr Gaskell's case, they had to pay US$ 125,000. The pity is it probably did not come out of the pockets of those involved or paying at censor on job appointments. And Ms Scott of NCSE, yes, that specifically means NCSE.) Anyway, I am saddened but not really surprised to see that the game is to smear and dehumanise those who would object to evolutionary materialistic secularism hiding in a cheap lab coat. [Actually, I have never seen or worn a really expensive lab coat. Do they have designer lab coats? Where I come from, they are strictly utilitarian, and I preferred slate blue-grey to white.]kairosfocus
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
08:14 AM
8
08
14
AM
PDT
Brent Thanks. Appreciated. And that proverb Jesus cited to those who objected to him and to his cousin John the Baptist, is unfortunately apt. The one cometh eating and drinking, and you say he consorts with sinners. The other, a Nazirite, is in Elijah's camel's hair garment, and eats locusts and honey, and you say he has a devil. Gkairosfocus
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:48 AM
7
07
48
AM
PDT
@kairosfocus, I have to agree with your stand. But mostly I want to tell you thanks for the treasure trove that you've put online. Very helpful. Sorry that some just dismiss it out of hand. I like what you and some others have done, compiling solid information to readily link. I usually take a different approach and ask a simple question or two. If one can't even respond to that, well . . . "We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented."Brent
February 21, 2011
February
02
Feb
21
21
2011
07:40 AM
7
07
40
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 5 6 11

Leave a Reply