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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
Pach says: "science is not interested (or at least should not be) in things that can’t be determined by scientific means." The evidence of design is 100% material. It is instantiated into matter and can be observed by anyone. - - "Inferences and opinions based on Gods or religious beliefs are not scientific." ID makes no claims based upon Gods or religious beliefs. Now that you've been told that several times, you can stop repeating the claim. Or, as an alternative, you can start defending your comment by addresssing the evidence of design. - - "Science is interested in facts and material processes." Again, the evidence of design is 100% material - observable by anyone. Design is a part of those processes, which materialism can't even approach without relying on unsupported assumptions. - - "What I wonder is why do some religious people feel so threatened by science?" Without a doubt, it is you who is threatened by the science. That is precisely the point.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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'Kay Pach, For me 'truth' and 'facts' are not different things. The facts are truth. The truth is made up of fact. If the facts point towards a creative force, why should we not infer a God? It's as likely as any other inference. Or are you saying Science shouldn't infer anything at all? See, if that's what you're saying I'd almost agree with you, except I'm pretty sure half the discoveries we've made in recent years are due to someone infering from the facts how something must work. And it's not 'science' that we're threatened by (at least I'm not. I love REAL science). Our problem is 'science' that's geared for our destruction - Evolution in the hands of men like Dawkins and the like. This science gets wrapped up with the rest, so religious people are wary of it. I hope I made sense there. If I didn't I'll try to rephrase it later. Also, most of the discoveries of late don't conflict with our beliefs. (Quite a few confirm them actually). It's just things like Darwinian Evolution (wrapped in a package like it's science fact) that ruffles our feathers. This is a Christian perspective of course. I don't know my cousins in faith fare with science - I have a suspician that Islam in general is warry of anything 'scientists' say these days though. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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"I really want to know why you’re still holding on to this complaint dude." My "complaint" isn't simply about ID being linked to a God or religion. It's about ID being called a scientific theory that has nothing to do with a God or religion while it is being linked to a God and religion. It's either a scientific idea or it's a religious idea. It can't be both. Trying to disguise a religious idea (or agenda) as a scientific idea (or theory) is dishonest and will not fool science.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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Sonfaro asked: "Why should God not be an option for science? Not for materialism, or atheism – those are givens. But for the search for truth, why must God be ruled out?" Science is not interested (or at least should not be) in things that can't be determined by scientific means. Gods and religions are not scientific. Inferences and opinions based on Gods or religious beliefs are not scientific. Science isn't necessarily interested in what you call "truth". Science is interested in facts and material processes. Truth can mean many things to many people that have nothing to do with facts or material processes. Many people believe that their chosen God and religion is the truth, even though there are no facts or material processes to prove it. What I wonder is why do some religious people feel so threatened by science?Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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pachyaena, Here is a tidbit for you, the mass density of the universe is balanced to within 1 part in 10^60, which means that if the universe would have one been 1 grain of sand larger are smaller during the big bang, we would not be here for the universe would have either crushed into oblivion or accelerated to fast to allow life to be possible. Just 1 grain of sand!!!! Please give me a materialistic explanation for why that should be so, instead of just saying I'm mixing 'my God' with science and then saying that I can't do that,,, Pach, by the way, who in blue blazes gave you permission to dictate what we are allowed to consider in science? You seem to think you have the answer before you even looked at the evidence?bornagain77
February 22, 2011
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C'mon Pach :( You say: "You apparently believe that creation and design are inextricably linked, and that your chosen God is behind both of them. It’s obvious that most people here think the same way, or close enough. No wonder ID and/or creation are considered to be religious things, and not scientific." Of course he believes creation and design are linked: He's a Christian. It's part of the worldview! We flock to ID because our worldview is supported. Same as atheists flock to Darwinian Evolution. I really want to know why you're still holding on to this complaint dude. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Pachyaena, care to elaborate on what 'non-materialistic' theory has been postulated that did not involve intelligence. I would really like to hear your take on the matter!bornagain77
February 22, 2011
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bornagain77 said: "The only other theory possible for the universe’s creation, other than a God-centered hypothesis, is some purposeless materialistic theory based on blind chance." Not true. Some other 'theories' (actually just guesses) are not only possible but many have been posited/postulated. You apparently believe that creation and design are inextricably linked, and that your chosen God is behind both of them. It's obvious that most people here think the same way, or close enough. No wonder ID and/or creation are considered to be religious things, and not scientific.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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"Sonfaro, I appreciate your decent responses but I want to point out that I didn’t bring up religious beliefs in the first place. nullasalus did in the original post and others did after that." Indeed. As I said, religious people flock to ID. We're excited for it. We'll probably start using it in sermons. I'm sorry if this makes you uncomfortable. It's not meant to. You also say: "If ID truly were a scientific theory, it wouldn’t matter one bit whether someone is an atheist or not." The thing is - and I thought I brought it up before, maybe I didn't though - while it SHOULDN'T matter, all too often it does. The idea of a creator instantly messes with the world veiw of many atheists - perhaps not you, but I'd wager most are repulsed by it. No matter how scientific it gets these Athiests will reject it because of where they percieve it leads... or worse, where they've been told it leads. "Theism is a belief in a God or Gods. Gods have nothing to do with science. The instant a God (or anything else religious) is injected into the ID debate is the instant people are going to think that ID is a religious agenda, and only a religious agenda." My problem, as a Christian anyway, is WHY? Why is this a problem for SCIENCE? Why must science box itself in by focusing only on results that please naturalists? Growing up, science was about learning the truth. Now it feels like 'learn the truth we tell you'. A force outside of what we percieve is not the antithesis of science. It's the antithesis of scientism, which is a different thing. So, I ask again... I feel I have to. Not because I'm preaching to you or trying to convert you, but because where you're standing doesn't make sense to me and I want to make sense of it. Why should God not be an option for science? Not for materialism, or atheism - those are givens. But for the search for truth, why must God be ruled out?Sonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Pach at 229. You didn't respond to 196. - - - - - - - - - I don’t care whether someone is a ‘materialist’ or whatever else they may call themselves when it comes to their claims. Judging by your own words, this doesn't seem to be so. This sounds exactly like what an ideologue would say in order to sound reasonable and absolve himself for being close-minded. You are welcome to prove otherwise. - - If they have sound evidence, I’ll seriously consider it. Again, prove it. - - If all they have is speculation, guesses, inferences, or beliefs, I probably won’t take it seriously. News for you: ID doesn't involved scientific issues that are already confirmed by repeatable evidence, or even a preponderance of evidence. Perhaps you didn't understand this, or perhaps you're merely repeating the party line. Either way, it is wrong on its face.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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Sonfaro, I appreciate your decent responses but I want to point out that I didn't bring up religious beliefs in the first place. nullasalus did in the original post and others did after that. It's no wonder that so many people think that ID is just a religious agenda, and especially when statements like the following are made: "...and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane." If ID truly were a scientific theory, it wouldn't matter one bit whether someone is an atheist or not. Theism is a belief in a God or Gods. Gods have nothing to do with science. The instant a God (or anything else religious) is injected into the ID debate is the instant people are going to think that ID is a religious agenda, and only a religious agenda.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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You know what? Just listen to what Upright Biped said. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Hey Pach. You say: " And I will decide what’s absurd to me." And therein lies the rub dude. You've decided, a long time ago, that religion was stupid. And there will be no convincing you otherwise. Fine. It's your life, live it your way. But please, don't come on an ID board, bash religion, then cry foul when the religious people who attend that board call you out on it. I'll say it again. Hopefully you'll get it. ID is not a religious movement. The religious follow it because it affirms our faith... the same way the un-religious hold to Evolution. If I am in error with the following statement please forgive. This is the attitude I feel like I'm getting from you though, so it's the attitude I feel I must respond to. Don't appeal to keeping an open mind when you yourself are selective about your own openness. Don't keep pulling up old Atheist complaints (and they really are quite old) if you're more interested in the science. Don't ask us to question our faith if you don't feel comfortable questioning yours. And don't judge the science because people who disagree with your worldview support it. Judge the science for the science. Again, maybe I've got your opinion down wrong or something. But that's what it seems like dude(dudette?). - SonfaroSonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Pach at 224 I haven't preached or proselytized to anyone. That's not what I do here. You are welcome to cut and paste evidence to the contrary. I visit here to keep up on ID news, and defend it when I wish to. I am also free to make comments about other issues if I am so inclined. What is profoundly obvious is that you do nothing but attack religious people with the most wornout, low-frow, village atheist crap possible. But you don't engage the evidence for design. And you seem eager to condemn ID for not being sterilized of people who see the evidence of design as evidence of a design. Yet in the standard materialist' contradiction, you shrink from applying any such standard to materialism. You state that ID should be about science. Okay then. Set aside your god-complex and debate ID on the merits.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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Bruce, ID is a big tent and you need no one's welcome. But I hate to break it to you; you have no access to special powers of understanding. You are just as free and limited as anyone else. Sorry.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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Upright Biped, In regard to your comments in No. 205: I'm not ignoring or avoiding the question. I already answered it. See below. Upright BiPed asked: “Pach, should the materialism proposed by a wide swath of science be believed, given that most of its adherents are materialist?” To me, it would depend on exactly what material things they are proposing or claiming. And also to me, it’s not who proposes or claims it that counts, it’s what they propose or claim and what evidence they have. ---------------------- I don't care whether someone is a 'materialist' or whatever else they may call themselves when it comes to their claims. If they have sound evidence, I'll seriously consider it. If all they have is speculation, guesses, inferences, or beliefs, I probably won't take it seriously. The title or reputation of the person has little to no effect on me. I'm interested in the evidence of whatever claim they may make. I'm as skeptical of scientists as I am of just about anyone else. I don't worship a God and I don't worship any person. I notice that some of you drop names, as though that will make your arguments stronger. I couldn't care less what some favored writer/author of yours thinks (or opines) or what was written by some guys thousands or hundreds of years ago. I make up my own mind based on evidence, and if there is no evidence I'll keep an open mind, unless the claim is absurd. And I will decide what's absurd to me. And just so you all know, I've read all of your comments but I don't have the time to respond as quickly as you might like, and may never. I'll respond if or when I can.Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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(Sorry writing on my phone. Blaurgh.) We aren't trying to convert you. We're asking you to take your own advise and be openminded. You don't have to believe in the God(s) of religion if you don't want to. I assume you live in a country where you're free to believe what you want. But don't go demanding we see things your way when you clearly have no interest in seeing it our way.Sonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Hey Pach, The reason I'm defending my faith is you keep bringing it up. Same for most of the other christians here. I don't know if you're actually reading my responses, as you seem to be picking and choosing but I'll try to explain again. It would be strange if people like me didn't flock to ID. It would be like a naturalist atheist not believing in ToE. Of course we'd be here. The science supports our worldview. If you focused on asking about the science instead of attacking the religious among us - and it does feel like an attack from you at times. Most of us (christians) don't care much about converting you.Sonfaro
February 22, 2011
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Pach, If you're in a crowded restaurant and shout, "Bomb!", you're going to get a reaction no matter what kind of food that restaurant serves. Likewise, if you're in a place that happens to have a lot of Christians hanging out, and you shout, "God is man's invention!", you're going to get a reaction. It doesn't matter where that is. What is your complaint again? And where is your argument to back up your claim again??? Oh, right. The appeal to emotion.Brent
February 22, 2011
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Sanforo said:
For me, the creator of the laws of our universe would not be subject to them. Like a programer who writes a set of rules into a video game. The world of “Super Mario” adheres to a set of rules: Mushrooms make you grow. Plants give you hadoken powers. Touching creatures who don’t like you will result in instant death. These rules apply in the world of the game. They don’t apply to the games designer. That’s a weird way to describe it and probably to simplistic but it’s all I could think of at the time. I’ve got work in a minute so I can’t dwell to much. I’ll give it some thought though…
Upright BiPed said:
If everything in the material universe is Contingent, then there must be at least one thing that is Necessary, and that Necessary thing cannot be Contingent on this material universe.
Thanks to you both. I was simply thinking outside of that box for a moment: If there were no creator, or, if one existed, it wouldn't prohibit the existence of other universes. It was just a mental exercise in trying to grasp how it would be at all possible for an actual infinite number of things to actually exist. I don't think there is any way at all, at least not according to the laws of logic that govern this universe. But then, what we are left with is absolutely nothing at all to root even the idea of infinity itself to, as well as anything else. Literally, I don't see any possible way to even imagine that we can imagine another universe. It's crazy. We either have to imagine one that is basically like ours, or just give it up altogether.Brent
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed said: "ID is not a program to convince anyone of the truths of the Christian faith." Well, it shouldn't be but it sure does appear to be. Just look at this thread. It is overflowing with religious preaching and proselytizing. What happened to ID being a scientific theory?Pachyaena
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed: P.P.S. Exactly how is my admonition that you can't convince anyone of God's existence or of the truth of Christian dogma through reason "self-serving"?Bruce David
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed, P.S. I submit to you that no one arrives at faith through reason. Rather, they arrive at faith through some other means and then justify it with reasoned arguments (if they do).Bruce David
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed, I knew you'd come back with that. To me there is a profound difference between "reason", which is attempting to reach (or convince others to reach) a conclusion using logical argument, and the kind of knowing that I tried to describe above. What I am talking about is a kind of seeing, as I said. You can't get there with logic. You have to apprehend it directly, and you definitely can't force another to see it by the power of "reason". Another example is the apprehension that all there is is now, that the future and the past don't exist. You can't get to that understanding via reason, only by seeing that it is so. This kind of knowing is personal. The important point relative to this discussion and what I said earlier about the futility of trying to convince another of your point of view via reason is that you cannot convince another of its truth through logical discourse. You can only relate your own experience, and they will see it or they won't. Sometimes they will see it in the fullness of time.Bruce David
February 22, 2011
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Bruce, Then you may no rational excuse for telling others to 'can it' with the reason that influences them, since it was reason that influenced your own conclusions. Telling another that his reason is "powerless" is self-serving crap. You may wish to call your reasoning an "AH HA" moment, but that is no diffrerent than anyone else's "AH HA" moment. Besides that, your comment can't account for the millions of people each year who acknowledge faith through reason, now can it? ID is a big tent. :)Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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Upright BiPed, Since you ask, the process went something like this: I started life as an atheist materialist. I was opened to the possibility that there was more to reality than this by a number of influences--a study of Eastern Religions in college, notably Zen, The Inner Game of Tennis, by Tim Galwey, and the Seth books by Jane Roberts. I came to my belief in pantheism first through a realization that the physical universe does not actually exist as such, ie., that all there is is mind and the contents of mind--thoughts, sense impressions, and emotions. In this I was strongly influenced by Bishop Berkeley's philosophy. I don't regard this as the product of my reason, however, it is more a kind of seeing, an "Ah ha" experience, as in, "Oh my God, THAT's how it is!" Next, I realized that for there to be a common world which all minds shared in experiencing, there must be an entity that is coordinating our shared experience. This entity could only be God, and it really only made sense if our minds (souls, actually) were in fact contained withing His mind (or Him). Then I was introduced to the Conversations with God books, and the knowledge contained therein confirmed, clarified, and extended my understanding. Thanks for asking. BruceBruce David
February 22, 2011
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Oh, by the way Bruce, did you come to your belief in pantheism by reason, or were you forced into it beyond your will? Was it a matter of organic physical necessity?Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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“Don’t you know that reason is powerless to convince anyone of the existence of God, much less of the truth of the Christians beliefs?” ID is not a program to convince anyone of the truths of the Christian faith.Upright BiPed
February 22, 2011
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Bruce David you state; Don’t you know that reason is powerless to convince anyone of the existence of God, much less of the truth of the Christians beliefs? If all those proofs of God’s existence were really effective, don’t you think that intelligent people everywhere would already be convinced? For whatever reason, they are obviously unpersuasive to anyone who is not already a believer. ,,, and yet though reason and discerning of overwhelming evidence alone may not win that many atheists to the truth that belongs to Christ alone, correct reason and discerning of the overwhelming evidence does guard against those who would love to destroy the christian faith, such as the 'new atheists' of PZ Myers, Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins etc.. etc.. as well as defends against those who would seek to water the exclusive truth claims of Christianity down.bornagain77
February 22, 2011
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Bruce David, Don’t you know that reason is powerless to convince anyone of the existence of God, much less of the truth of the Christians beliefs? If all those proofs of God’s existence were really effective, don’t you think that intelligent people everywhere would already be convinced? For whatever reason, they are obviously unpersuasive to anyone who is not already a believer. As someone who has a very cynical view of the power of reason to persuade most anyone who is firmly set in their ways... no, that's not correct. Those proofs, those arguments, really do have an effect. It may not be the most wide-spread effect - it may only have pull with certain people - but they do have their place.nullasalus
February 22, 2011
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