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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
Brent & Son: Well said. We need to hear more from you guys! G PS: I hate to find myself feeling compelled to bring up having to deal with race prejudice and Marxist ideologues, but things, sadly, have reached that stage. When you take people who patently are seeking to think through momentous issues seriously [P, have you read through just the intro-summary page in my draft online course?], and smear them like I have seen for years now; and pay no attention to pleas to stop such, it is time to draw some conclusions. Then, to demand that such uncivil conduct stop. Now.kairosfocus
February 21, 2011
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@Pachyaena, If you're even reading anything I write anymore . . . I've really streeeeetched the bounds of kindness in my various posts to you throughout this thread. Indeed, I've probably danced on the other side of the line a little. Let me step back and, hopefully, give you something to consider to hopefully start you objectively evaluating the things that people are trying to get you to see here. What follows is the idea that I'd like to ask you to take a little time to mull over: As much as you may think and even believe that you are unbiased in your stance; as objective as you think you are in your current conclusions concerning God and science as they relate to one another (or how they should not relate to one another), that perhaps you are not completely unbiased, or even that you are quite biased. Just take a little time and consider that possibility. Here is why. Whether you or I or anyone else likes it or not, this is one fight that everyone has a stake in. You have a dog in this fight, and so does everyone else. The truth of the existence of God affects everyone. I, as a Christian, was not very interested in checking out what the critics had to say about my Christianity. I was afraid that my faith may be shown to be unwarranted. I finally had to admit, however, that if there were good reasons to question what I believed, I'd better know what they are and ask them. There comes a time, no matter who you are, to look at things in the starkest light we can, be the consequences what they may. I think if you will take a step back and look at your situation in a stark light that you'll see that the reason you struggle to engage the arguments and evidence is because you don't like the conclusions you know we have in mind. As much as you may think or feel that some here are attempting to force these conclusions on you, I suggest it is just that, your thinking and feeling. We are here just giving you solid scientific and philosophical reasons for what conclusions that some of us have come to. We all, as far as I know, are not concerned with making you a Christian, but rather to give you some stark light to help you on your journey. We happen to be convinced that that stark light will lead you to the same conclusions we have come to, but we are only concerned with giving you the information, not to try to infuse the conclusion.Brent
February 21, 2011
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@Pachyaena,
"Just so you know, it doesn’t matter to me what color your skin is, and I don’t think it has any relevance to the things we’re discussing. If you were purple with green stripes it would be fine with me."
This makes no sense either. You should hate kairosfocus for his skin color. After all, we may find out scientifically in the future that it really is the right thing to do. Nobody knows anything for sure right now, ya know?Brent
February 21, 2011
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Hi again Pach. I really don't want this to be a 'jump on Pachyeana' thing but... You say: "And again, if ID adherents want SCIENCE to accept ID theory as a SCIENTIFIC theory, then it MUST be completely separated from ANY religion or Gods. Science must be based on verifiable, material evidence." I'll say it again. "For the record, people should be allowed to draw whatever conclusion they want from the evidence." Your call that ID should seperate from the religious is an ideal that, to me at least, falls apart at the beginning. If indeed the evidence points to a God, then the God(s) of religion just got more probable. Which is why most religious people flock to ID. (It's why I'm here anyway.) And to be honest "Science" is perfectly fine with the idea of a creative force over the universe - a force what we humans would call 'God'. It's certain "Scientists" (or should I say, scientismists?-_-) who refuse to even attempt to investigate ID's claims. There's no convincing them, they made up their minds a long time ago. "Just so you know, it doesn’t matter to me what color your skin is, and I don’t think it has any relevance to the things we’re discussing. If you were purple with green stripes it would be fine with me." :) Awesome. Though Kairosfocus brought it up for a reason, and indeed bigotry has a lot to do with what we're discussing here. At least it certainly seems that way. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 21, 2011
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P: On just one point:
[KF:] “It is thus a reasonable inference that such FSCO/I, in various forms, is a signature of intelligence.” [P:] That is a matter of opinion. Many people would agree with you, and many would not.
This is an abandonment of the role of empirical evidence in science, a grounding principle of science since Galileo. We do often observe FSCO/I, and we have billions of cases in point where we credibly know the source, by direct observation or by credible testimony. Start with every book in every library across the world. Move on tot he libraries and other buildings, roads, vehicles etc we encounter along the way. Go on to look at the web sites and pages on the Internet. Then come back to the posts in this thread. In each case, without exceptions, we have good reason to see that FSCO/I is a reliable signature of intelligence. That is, we know to moral certainty -- when an EMT uses the Glasgow Consciousness Scale s/he is making an inference from FSCO/I to design in a life and death situation -- a causally sufficient source for FSCO/I, and we know of no other causally sufficient, empirically warranted source. This is backed up by the infinite monkeys analysis that is the foundation of statistical thermodynamics' version of the second law. So, it is a REASONABLE step -- not mere optional opinion -- to infer from FSCO/I to design as cause, and onwards to the credible presence of an intelligence capable of making the design. What that means in this context, is that if there were not institutionalised question-begging at work, no one would seriously dispute the point. And, unless origins issues are in question, no one does dispute the claim. We all routinely and reliably infer to authors of books, makers of autos, builders of buildings, and writers of web pages and blog posts, on the mere evidence of the result of their work, FSCO/I. In fact, the real and proper burden of warrant is on those who object in an origins context. Just like those who claim that a perpetual motion machine of he second kind is possible, they are the ones who need to show the fact by empirical demonstration. Pleas of logical possibility joined to assumptions that we must pretend that no intelligent cause was possible at the point of origin of life, are simply not good enough. Now, that this is not the currently fashionable opinion among the evolutionary materialistic elites in the science institutions, many uni depts, among media pundits etc, makes no difference to the balance of evidence and reason on inference to best explanation. After all, within living memory, black men were often deemed an inferior race. Not that long before that, my ancestors were in chains of slavery, slavery backed by the same notion. The popularity or institutionalisation of a patently wrong notion makes no difference to the balance on the merits of evidence. P, why not reconsider your declaration above, then simply address the argument here and in the posts that lead up to it? Surely, if they were ill-founded, we could easily find a simple, empirically well supported refutation, and could simply link it. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 21, 2011
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Pachyaena Sorry to have to be direct, but you are indulging in what is called enabling behaviour. Enough is enough. It is time that we expose the evolutionary materialistic, question-begging ideological straight-jacket being imposed on science, and it is time that we exposed the inexcusable, slanderous bigotry of those who are projecting what they know or should know are false accusations of theocratic tyrannical intent. Enough is enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 21, 2011
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On the subject of a multiverse, I don’t take it very seriously. It makes for an interesting thought or conversation but there’s no credible evidence to prove it one way or another.
Not true. An actual number of infinite things is logically impossible.Brent
February 21, 2011
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@Pachyaena,
And again, if ID adherents want SCIENCE to accept ID theory as a SCIENTIFIC theory, then it MUST be completely separated from ANY religion or Gods. Science must be based on verifiable, material evidence.
This almost made me spew the first time you said it, and you just had to repeat it. That sound you now hear is a major groaaaaaaan. First off, if you and other supposedly educated people are intellectually unable, or philosophically unwilling, to separate the scientific theory of ID from religion, it is purely and clearly your problem! Second, why do you think (and pretty, pretty please, at the very least, respond to this question) it's reasonable to rule out a priori any conclusion that any scientific observations may indicate or lead one to? So, you say that no one knows everything. Great! We agree. You seem to indicate that it is possible for there to be a God. Good. But, for the sake of argument, assume for a moment that God does exist (after all, it is possible as you seem to think). Then, wouldn't you expect science to lead us to the conclusion that God, or some intelligence anyway, was the cause of the Universe? So, your position is utterly impossible to defend logically. You think God is possible, but you say that science must be separated from God. But, if God exists, and we take your stand that we utterly separate scientific endeavor from God, then we are bound to only find and affirm things that are untrue. Science is meaningless without leaving open the possibility and freedom to conclude from it that God exists. Therefore, your position really is, emphatically, THERE IS NO GOD!!! Which was quite clear to unbiased observers from the very beginning. If you are truly open to the possibility of God, you cannot logically take the position that you claim to take. You must say that God is possible AND that it is possible and permissible for science to come to that conclusion, or that, emphatically, and as I've said I'm sure is really the case, that God does not exist and therefore we should not and cannot leave the possibility of God open to science. Take your pick, but your position now should be embarrassing to you.Brent
February 21, 2011
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kairosfocus, in regard to your comments in 161: I'm not demanding anything and I'm not being bigoted. I'm merely stating my opinions and being realistic about whether science will accept ID as a scientific theory without separating ID from any Gods or religions. Even if I were the most religious man on Earth I would like to think that I would still realize that science is a large and entrenched endeavor that is reluctant to welcome ideas that challenge the status quo unless the ideas are backed up by verifiable, material evidence. Of course some 'mainstream' scientists do readily accept ideas that could be described as challenging to the status quo, or even radical. However, those ideas are usually not associated with Gods or religions. Some of you here obviously think that ID isn't necessarily a religious thing but you should realize that ID is often associated with religious beliefs by religious people and/or adherents to ID. Actually, from what I've seen, most ID adherents associate ID with their religious beliefs in some way. Some ID adherents, and especially some of the most vocal ones, cannot hide the fact that they are thoroughly religious and are much more motivated by a religion/ID connection than by a science/ID connection. And some ID promoters are trying to use deceptive Trojan horse tactics to push improper religious censorship of science, or even imposition of a theocratic tyranny or worse. If people want to associate ID with their religious beliefs, that's fine, but if ID isn't completely disconnected from any Gods or religious beliefs it will never be accepted by science, or many science supporters. You said: "It is thus a reasonable inference that such FSCO/I, in various forms, is a signature of intelligence." That is a matter of opinion. Many people would agree with you, and many would not. To convince 'mainstream' science it will take more than opinion or inference. Personally, while I think that ID is possible, I'm not convinced of it. On the subject of a multiverse, I don't take it very seriously. It makes for an interesting thought or conversation but there's no credible evidence to prove it one way or another. There are many, many things that science hasn't figured out about this planet, let alone how many universes there are. Some scientists (or mathematicians) probably like to see their name in print and want to get more grant money so they come up with non-provable ideas that really don't matter anyway (even if they're right). I wish they would all spend more time and money on taking better care of this world. Just so you know, it doesn't matter to me what color your skin is, and I don't think it has any relevance to the things we're discussing. If you were purple with green stripes it would be fine with me. :)Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
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From a post above: "This is a very special universe: it’s remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren’t just the way they are, we couldn’t be here at all. The sun couldn’t be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here." Seems to me that the author of that paragraph is making a big, and selfish, assumption. He's assuming that the universe was created and designed for humans. Does the universe fit us, or do we fit the universe? Try substituting the word nature, for universe. Many people, and especially most or all religious ones, believe that humans are the pinnacle beings, and that nature was or is formed to support and cater to humans. People who adhere to the ToE or Abiogenesis are much more likely to see humans as just another species that evolved from previous species that originally came about from chemical processes. In other words, we're nothing special, or at least not any more special than any other organisms. Those two trains of thought have a lot to do with whether people are religious and believe in a God(s), or whether they believe that we are just another organism among all the other organisms. Think about it. More later.Pachyaena
February 21, 2011
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I want to let you guys know that I have a lot going on, so I'll respond when I can. In the meantime, I want to respond to this: "Pachyaena, you say ‘science’ must always be separated from God, yet you are painfully unaware of the fact that science is impossible without God in the first place,,," I am not aware that "God" (or any God) is required for there to be science. No human knows whether there are any Gods or not and no human knows whether there is a creator or a designer. Also, no human knows everything about the universe, or everything about how the universe came about, or whether strictly materialistic causes are responsible for the universe or the origin and diversity of life. People can choose whatever it is that they want to believe, but there are lots and lots of things yet to be discovered and there are lots and lots of things that will never be known. Nature is BIG and COMPLEX. And again, if ID adherents want SCIENCE to accept ID theory as a SCIENTIFIC theory, then it MUST be completely separated from ANY religion or Gods. Science must be based on verifiable, material evidence. Science cannot and should not be interested in or concerned with Gods or religions. If it were, it wouldn't be science. It would be philosophy. Science and religion have different names and different processes, for good reasons. They are not the same thing.Pachyaena
February 20, 2011
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BA: On another head, I have been working on a summary of the biblical timeline over the past week, in light of the impact of David Rohl's chronology work since the mid 90's. (Contrast my previous work on the general geochronological timeline here, set against the backdrop of the implications of astronomical and astrophysical evidence [including fine-tuning of the cosmos], which BTW seems to currently be the single most interest-drawing item in the IOSE course. None of this is any news to LT and ilk; they know or should know the specifically different cases that are explored, and the different ways they are explored. That -- given what I have had to say on the rise of modern liberty [and what I have had to do to stand up for liberty on the ground over the past 30 years; FYI LT, I had to put myself on the line literally to deal with Communists, DOUBLE SHAME ON YOU for making me have to say that explicitly!] -- is part of why I find the slander they have made so utterly inexcusable.) In the work I have been doing, I ran across this. I think we should all take a sober look at this video, as a presentation of the core warranting case for the Christian faith. (I note too, here, on the themes of building a worldview in light of first principles of right reason, here, part of the same course I am working on.) Notice, how this is a very different context from the question of origins science and the inference to design, it is an argument in the end about historical warrant, and about understanding the human heart enough to know whose report we should believe. Of course, on both Rom 1 - 2 and Jn 1, the Christian faith puts itself on the line at points of empirical test: it is committed -- right in foundational teachings -- to the concept that the heart of the cosmos is Reason himself, manifested in Information himself. And, to the claim that from our hearts and minds within and the world around us, we see good reason to see that he cosmos is a Creation by a Creator, a good Creator who is the is who grounds ought, so that we are under moral government; first in light of the candle of conscience within. Can you imagine how that would have been treated if the tests had been clearly failed? [Actually, we do not have to imagine, those who -- per the controlling a priori of Lewontinian-Saganian a priori evolutionary materialism -- think they have been failed make it plain what they feel on the subject. But, once the actual evidence is given an uncensored voice, from the heavens above, to the cells in our bodies, to the awesomely complex and functionally specific organisation of the body plans that scream out as we observe our world, to the mind and probing conscience within, the situation is very different.) I think we all have some serious thinking to do. GEM of TKI PS: P, DR, etc. is that video empty, manipulative "proselytism" as I have actually seen in a development agency's project specifications? Or, is it a call to think and examine seriously for oneself, on the evidence . . . however unwelcome it may be at the first?kairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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---Bruce: "In spite of the fact that the scientists who argue for ID have bent over backwards to disassociate the inference to design from any religious connection, Pachyaena appears to experience that ID is nonetheless intimately tied to religion, based at least partly on what goes on in blogs like this." Pachyaena was not arguing against ID so much as he/she was arguing against the reasonableness of God from a philosophical perspective, which is why I responded with the counter argument @65. That argument, by the way, refutes both atheism and pantheism. ---"My personal opinion is that if one is really interested in making the case for ID with people like Pachyaena, it would be best to back off the attempts at religious persuasion entirely." The case for ID has little to do with the case for the legitimacy of religion. ---"This is not to say that religion couldn’t be discussed, only that the comments coming from a stance of “I know the truth and you don’t.” are counter productive." Why is it counterproductive to tell people who are not reasoning properly that they are not reasoning properly. It helps everyone concerned, including onlookers and lurkers. If one has the truth [a universe that begins in time necessarily requires a first cause] shouldn't he share it.StephenB
February 19, 2011
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Pachyaena, I find it very peculiar that you would jump into the middle of a philosophical/theological discussion to scold us on 'separating science and God' and yet when we directly address you as to show you some of the abundant scientific evidence for the ID position, you begged off, refusing to get into the details of the scientific evidence, as well you also 'dreamily' alluded to some 'future discoveries', without ever bothering to elucidate to us what areas those future discoveries might be in,,, in order that those discoveries would bring 60 to 100 years of persistent, and growing, crushing evidence against the materialistic philosophy to a halt. So what are we to do??? When we discuss 'the science' you will not engage us. And yet when we discuss the philosophical/theological implications of the scientific evidence you feel qualified to scold us!?! You simply cannot scold us on the latter without first defending the former.bornagain77
February 19, 2011
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BD: Pardon, have a look at the series that I have been posting, to here, including the comments. Compare the discussion here on in the draft course I have developed. Is that "prosletysing" -- what a studiously loaded word -- or is it a serious look on the merits? I let you in on a secret, as you can see by examining this parallel thread: THE REACTION-RHETORIC FROM THE LIKES OF LT (AND OTHERS)IS TO TRY TO MAKE OUT THAT THIS IS ALL ABOUT CREATIONISM IN A CHEAP TUXEDO, PROBABLY SEEKING TO IMPOSE A RIGHT WING FUNDAMENTALIST THEOCRACY. Just look at how a background post about how we observe patterns of signs and sets of symbols and infer from these to objective states of affairs, objects in the world, and meanings, on warrants that give more or less support, has been treated rhetorically! Do you see why I am heart-sick and tired to my bones of that sort of poisonous, polarising, trifecta fallacy -- red herrings led out to strawmen soaked in ad hominems and ignited to cloud, confuse, choke, poison and polarise the atmosphere -- slander? Why I see a lot of what is going on as being ever so much like Nero proverbially fiddling while Rome burns? Why I insist that since we are dealing with deep origins issues, whether of man or of the species or of life or of the cosmos, worldview level issues are bound to come up and should be addressed on the merits? That this inevitably will involve people's live worldviews? That they will show passion and will seek to persuade others that they are right? That they will see scientific results as relevant to their views? And, that they will want to thrash out how that relevance in the end comes out? So, not only science findings but first principles of right reason, critical thinking methods, and worldview analysis themes are relevant. And, socio-cultural agenda issues and debates. Do you notice how, when that comes up, I have consistently gone back to Plato in The Laws Bk X? Do you see that the issues Plato raised are really, really important, not only in Athens in the ruined aftermath of utter defeat by Sparta, but ever since in our civilisation? And, that echoes of these these keep coming up time and again? That advocates of evolutionary materialism owe us a very good answer to these concerns, given the history over 2,300 years? And, that too often they duck the issues behind a cloud of poisonous or at least evasive and distractive rhetoric? Do you see why I am of the publicly expressed view that the wound in the heart of our civilisation is mortal? Why, I think a horrendous price is already beginning to be paid, and -- on my lifetime experience with the consequences of the march of ideological folly in the days of my youth in my homeland [I cannot think of it without a deep pain in my heart] -- will continue to be paid for a long time to come? Do you see why I refuse to accommodate slanderous bigotry that further poisons the atmosphere and makes a bad situation worse? We need to wake up from our slumbers and pipe dreams in Plato's Cave. I don't even know if I can add . . . before it is too late. Most of all: do we realise the terrible harm that has been done, and the price that will have to be paid for it? GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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Sonfaro: Nicely stated. I pretty much agree, and I particularly like the olive branch you held out at the end. GEM: You said, "I am afraid the talking point line that ID is creationism in a cheap tuxedo hoping to impose a right wing theocratic tyranny is a willful propagandistic ploy." I'm pretty sure you are right about that, but I don't believe that Pachyaena is in that camp. I think that she/he is open to accepting that charge as true, however, at least partly because of the way that people commenting in this blog seem to bring evangelical Christianity into the picture. I'm only suggesting that if people want to create a climate where ID has the best chance of getting a fair hearing, they back off from the religious proselytizing. As for the rest of your post, I hope it is obvious from my other comments that I agree completely.Bruce David
February 19, 2011
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BD: I am afraid the talking point line that ID is creationism in a cheap tuxedo hoping to impose a right wing theocratic tyranny is a willful propagandistic ploy. Such are by and large invulnerable to reason; they are toxic mind-closing polarising deceitful rhetoric in service to slanders. That is why I insist that we understands that so soon as science touches on origins, it will have import for worldviews. The thing is to do science, and not import ideologies such as a priori evolutionary materialism as censoring straightjackets, a la Lewontin. Once that is done, it will be very evident that on inference to best explanation, intelligence is the most credible cause of FSCO/I. On straight induction from the common observation, and backed up by the infinite monkeys analysis. Such only becomes controversial on origins, and that precisely because a dominant school of thought has got away with imposing materialism on science in recent decades. Do I really need to cite Lewontin et al yet one more time on this? Instead, we should insist that science at its best is:
the unfettered (but ethically and intellectually responsible) progressive pursuit of the empirically evident truth about our world, based on observation, measurement, analysis, theoretical modelling on inference to best explanation, and free, uncensored but mutually respectful discussion among the informed.
Once that is accepted, it is immediately apparent that the design inference on origin of life and on origin of a fine tuned cosmos that facilitates such C chemistry cell based life, is eminently reasonable. You need not agree with it, and you are free to come up with evidence that shows that it is credible that on chance plus necessity -- without a priori materialism -- the FSCO/I in life came about by chance plus necessity. And, that the fine tuned organisation of the physics of the cosmos that facilitates life came about similarly. What is interesting is that after many decades in the first case, and several decades in the second, no such serious evidence is forthcoming. "But, the Emperor isn't wearing any clothes, mommy!" GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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Hi Bruce, "I think it my be valuable to step back for a minute an look at what’s going on here. Pachyaena is clearly an intelligent, thoughtful person who although he(?) she(?) has formed certain opinions is nonetheless not irrevocably entrenched into a particular world view. Where he/she tends to get his/her back up is on the subject of religion, demonstrating strong resistance to any attempts at conversion. In spite of the fact that the scientists who argue for ID have bent over backwards to disassociate the inference to design from any religious connection, Pachyaena appears to experience that ID is nonetheless intimately tied to religion, based at least partly on what goes on in blogs like this." I understand this post (I think). My problem was that he/she asked for 'open mindedness' but appears to categorically dismissed the worlds Religion - all attempts to understand the nature of our creation and it's implications - as meer delusion. I don't wanna put words in your mouth Pach, but that's how it felt to me. The reason people like me are excited by ID is because it's a science that appears to support my worldview. ID isn't a religious movement, but it draws the religious because - like the big bang - it supports what we believe. It can't confirm it, but it can open it up as a possibility. What I mean is - if there IS an intellegent designer, wouldn't it be at least POSSIBLE for that designer to interact with his designs? I guess that's all I was hoping he/she'd acknowledge. Not that there 'was/is' a God of religion, but that it's possible. And I didn't get that at all. So to me, if felt like a 'my truth is better 'en yours' moment. That said, Pachyaena is certainly one of the more balanced and mellow skeptic/atheist/agnostic's I've had the pleasure of reading, so thank you for that Pach. If my (admittedly strong) opinions on 'the (T)ruth' have proven disagreeable, then I apologize. - SonfaroSonfaro
February 19, 2011
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To everyone: I think it my be valuable to step back for a minute an look at what's going on here. Pachyaena is clearly an intelligent, thoughtful person who although he(?) she(?) has formed certain opinions is nonetheless not irrevocably entrenched into a particular world view. Where he/she tends to get his/her back up is on the subject of religion, demonstrating strong resistance to any attempts at conversion. In spite of the fact that the scientists who argue for ID have bent over backwards to disassociate the inference to design from any religious connection, Pachyaena appears to experience that ID is nonetheless intimately tied to religion, based at least partly on what goes on in blogs like this. My personal opinion is that if one is really interested in making the case for ID with people like Pachyaena, it would be best to back off the attempts at religious persuasion entirely. This is not to say that religion couldn't be discussed, only that the comments coming from a stance of "I know the truth and you don't." are counter productive. Pachyaena: If you disagree with anything I have said regarding you in this post, feel free to correct me.Bruce David
February 19, 2011
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---Pachyaena: "Some people just choose not to be religious or believe in any Gods." Right you are. Atheism is not an intellectual decision at all; it is based on preference. A reasoned argument will take you in a totally different direction: 1. Everything that has a beginning of its existence has a cause of its existence. 2. The universe has a beginning of its existence. 3. Thus the universe has a cause of its existence. 4. This first uncaused cause must transcend physical reality. 5. This uncaused cause that transcends physical reality is the description of God. 6. Therefore God exists. The only way to avoid this logic is to make a "choice" against reason. So your phrase, "choose not to believe" is well conceived.StephenB
February 19, 2011
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The smug confidence on display by some on this thread has been entertaining. It's somewhat reminiscient of the General Motors executive in the mid sixties who visits a Toyota dealership to slap them on the back, then rock back on his heals in laughter "nobody gonna buy them tin cans". Then a decade and a half later that same executive is frantically telling the engineers to "stick some more chrome on it". That is probably about where we are at right now. The semiotic reality of DNA and the Cambrian explosion are the solid rear-axle and drums brakes of the day. And in turn, the NCSE and the Darwin lobby are tacked on as a landau roof and three feet of overhang in every direction.Upright BiPed
February 19, 2011
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Sonfaro: Thanks for giving the "cool" version of the point. I think this is one time when both ways need to be put. I hope the message begins to get through. Enough is enough. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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Hi Pach. You say: “The bottom line is this: If ID adherents WANT science to accept ID theory as a truly scientific theory, ID must first be completely separated from any Gods or religions.” Considering most of the time ID is lumped together with Religion by people outside of ID, I think your call for separation is idealistic at best. From what I’ve seen (and I am in no ways an expert) ID presents what they believe the evidence claims, and Darwinists ignore it and call them Creationists. If they (‘scientists’) have already decided that ID is religion, then no amount of evidence is going to convince them. It’s like the lunar landing deniers: No matter how many moon rocks people can point to, they’re always going to find a reason to discredit the evidence. “And like I already said, even then it would be a tough sale. It’s going to take more than inferences.” That’s all anyone on either side has really. Inferences. What they believe the evidence points to. Personally though, it appears to me that ID has gathered more evidence for their inference in the few years it’s been a movement than Darwinian Evolution has in the last hundred years. “And even if some or much or even all of the theory of Abiogenesis and the ToE are based on inferences, those inferences are much more entrenched in science and have been for a long time, and they would be very hard to displace without some really convincing evidence.” But that’s the problem isn't it? Abiogenesis and ToE are so entrenched in the field that any attempt to think critically about them sends people into a panic. The majority appears to consider it settled science, even though it doesn’t look like we’re even close to figuring things out. “Ya know, when it comes right down to it, most people on this planet believe that a creator and/or designer (a God) is responsible for everything. If anything, science is the one with a problem convincing people that Abiogenesis and the ToE explains the origin and diversity of life.” That tends to happen when your attempts to prove your theory often backfire. Badly. “No agenda ‘wins’ anything by convincing or converting one person, and no agenda is going to convince or convert every person. There will always be differing opinions and belief systems, no matter what evidence is discovered.” I’m glad you acknowledge this. Now if only someone could explain that to scientists who don’t understand why people are skeptical of Darwinian Evolution. Also, Kairosfocus... I know this probably isn't proper or whatever - But as a young black guy still looking for answers, it's nice to know guys like you exist. I wanna be like you when I grow up. :)Sonfaro
February 19, 2011
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Pachyaena, Pardon, but the point is that you are echoing a pernicious and willful misrepresentation of the design inference. As to the idea that science must run as far from any allusion to or hint of a link with God as it can, once science deals with issues of the roots of existence and the structure of the cosmos, it will intersect with the question of worldviews. Your demand therefore boils down to two unacceptable expectations:
1: an implicit controlling assumption of atheistical evolutionary materialism, which is of course a particularly aggressively promoted worldview that often likes to dress in a lab coat; in effect de facto quasi establishment of such atheism as the functional equivalent of an Established Church, but in lab coats not ecclesiastical robes. 2: the alienation of the historic understanding of science led by men like Newton, who saw science in a theistic worldview [please, re read the General Scholium to Principia, and Query 31 of Opticks]; indeed,the classic definition they used was thinking God's [creative and sustaining] thoughts after him.
Going beyond that, I must insist: the design inference is about the empirically and inductively warranted causal source of functionally specific and complex organization and associated information. On empirical evidence of routine observations -- not a priori worldview impositions -- and inference to best explanation backed up by the infinite monkeys analysis, we see just one credible source of such phenomena: intelligence. Indeed, when you hit your head and the EM make sure you are fully conscious,the Glasgow Coma Scale evaluation they will give you is a design inference. In a life and death context. It is thus a reasonable inference that such FSCO/I, in various forms, is a signature of intelligence. Indeed, this is utterly uncontroversial in any other context than origins. When you see complex functional text in this post you infer to intelligence not lucky noise bursting in on the Internet. As just one case in point. To assume, pretend or assert that to think like that is inevitably an irrational theocratic agenda or the like, is SLANDER DRIVEN BY BIGOTRY. Sorry, as a black man, I know the scent of poisonous bigotry all too well, and I will never surrender to it, whether presented with shouts and curses or with gentle soothing words, on respecting the "sensibilities" of the prejudiced. And, pardon me, this last is exactly what one does when s/he refuses to engage the merits but appeals instead to tiptoe-ing around the closed mindednbess of the bigoted. Pardon if that is painful, but it seems to be now necessary to be frank and direct. Please, think again. I am sure you would never even consider suggesting that a black man would have to face a hard sell to promote himself as a man worthy of respect and fair treatment. Now, I also happen to be both a Christian and a Scientist; and an educator. I care passionately about all three, and see from each a principal duty to the truth. And on investigating the matter carefully, I find that I can be all three without fatal contradiction. I have taken time to show why, here and here. Next, as a philosophically literate person, I see that the radical contingency of our observed cosmos, even through the multiverse suggestion [which is speculative], requires a necessary being as its root cause. Going beyond that, the evident fine tuning of the physics of the observed cosmos that facilitates C-chemistry cell based life points to an intelligent and powerful designer of the cosmos. Just the properties of that very familiar substance water, multiplied by the significance and abundance of Carbon and Oxygen, are quite significant. I would need no more than that to see a profound mutually supportive connexion between theism and science. When I turn to life, when I see the digitally coded, functionally specific, algorithmic technologies manifested there, that tells me that I am looking at blatant FSCO/I pointing to intelligence as its most credible cause; I have too much respect for thermodynamics and the underlying statistical analysis to see otherwise. I am fully aware that the intelligence is a category of cause not a given person or even property of the cosmos. So, I accept that the inference to design is not an inference to God as designer of life. That is what he evidence can point to and what it cannot by itself point to as science. Frankly, I have good reason to resent when that balanced conclusion is now twisted viciously into an accusation or insinuation of deceptive Trojan horse tactics pushing improper religious censorship of science, or even imposition of a theocratic tyranny or worse. That sort of toxic rhetoric emanating from the NCSE and other similar sources does no good, and it tells me a lot about those who resort to it. None of it good. It is high time that it stops. As in, now. Good day, sir. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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Pachyaena, you say 'science' must always be separated from God, yet you are painfully unaware of the fact that science is impossible without God in the first place,,, Gödel’s Incompleteness: The #1 Mathematical Breakthrough of the 20th Century Excerpt: Gödel’s Incompleteness Theorem says: “Anything you can draw a circle around cannot explain itself without referring to something outside the circle - something you have to assume to be true but cannot prove "mathematically" to be true.” http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/blog/incompleteness/ THE GOD OF THE MATHEMATICIANS - DAVID P. GOLDMAN - August 2010 Excerpt: we cannot construct an ontology that makes God dispensable. Secularists can dismiss this as a mere exercise within predefined rules of the game of mathematical logic, but that is sour grapes, for it was the secular side that hoped to substitute logic for God in the first place. Gödel's critique of the continuum hypothesis has the same implication as his incompleteness theorems: Mathematics never will create the sort of closed system that sorts reality into neat boxes. http://www.faqs.org/periodicals/201008/2080027241.html This following site is a easy to use, and understand, interactive website that takes the user through what is termed 'Presuppositional apologetics'. The website clearly shows that our use of the laws of logic, mathematics, science and morality cannot be accounted for unless we believe in a God who guarantees our perceptions and reasoning are trustworthy in the first place. Proof That God Exists - easy to use interactive website http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/index.php Materialism simply dissolves into absurdity when pushed to extremes and certainly offers no guarantee to us for believing our perceptions and reasoning within science are trustworthy in the first place: Dr. Bruce Gordon - The Absurdity Of The Multiverse & Materialism in General - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/5318486/ BRUCE GORDON: Hawking's irrational arguments - October 2010 Excerpt: The physical universe is causally incomplete and therefore neither self-originating nor self-sustaining. The world of space, time, matter and energy is dependent on a reality that transcends space, time, matter and energy. This transcendent reality cannot merely be a Platonic realm of mathematical descriptions, for such things are causally inert abstract entities that do not affect the material world. Neither is it the case that "nothing" is unstable, as Mr. Hawking and others maintain. Absolute nothing cannot have mathematical relationships predicated on it, not even quantum gravitational ones. Rather, the transcendent reality on which our universe depends must be something that can exhibit agency - a mind that can choose among the infinite variety of mathematical descriptions and bring into existence a reality that corresponds to a consistent subset of them. This is what "breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe.,,, the evidence for string theory and its extension, M-theory, is nonexistent; and the idea that conjoining them demonstrates that we live in a multiverse of bubble universes with different laws and constants is a mathematical fantasy. What is worse, multiplying without limit the opportunities for any event to happen in the context of a multiverse - where it is alleged that anything can spontaneously jump into existence without cause - produces a situation in which no absurdity is beyond the pale. For instance, we find multiverse cosmologists debating the "Boltzmann Brain" problem: In the most "reasonable" models for a multiverse, it is immeasurably more likely that our consciousness is associated with a brain that has spontaneously fluctuated into existence in the quantum vacuum than it is that we have parents and exist in an orderly universe with a 13.7 billion-year history. This is absurd. The multiverse hypothesis is therefore falsified because it renders false what we know to be true about ourselves. Clearly, embracing the multiverse idea entails a nihilistic irrationality that destroys the very possibility of science. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/1/hawking-irrational-arguments/ "Intelligent design, as one sees it from a scientific point of view, seems to be quite real. This is a very special universe: it's remarkable that it came out just this way. If the laws of physics weren't just the way they are, we couldn't be here at all. The sun couldn't be there, the laws of gravity and nuclear laws and magnetic theory, quantum mechanics, and so on have to be just the way they are for us to be here. Some scientists argue that "well, there's an enormous number of universes and each one is a little different. This one just happened to turn out right." Well, that's a postulate, and it's a pretty fantastic postulate — it assumes there really are an enormous number of universes and that the laws could be different for each of them. The other possibility is that ours was planned, and that's why it has come out so specially." Nobel Prize winning Physicist Charles Townes further notes; Despite the common perception of a great divide between science and belief in God, within the last century there has been a veritable avalanche of discovery, from many diverse fields of science, which has greatly narrowed this perception of a 'great divide' between science and belief in God. The Return of the God Hypothesis - Stephen Meyer http://www.arn.org/docs/meyer/sm_returnofgod.pdf video lecture: http://www.watermarkradio.com/index.php?id=153&channel=237&series=140&message=0 Indeed science, when taken 'unemotionally', points overwhelmingly to God; Richard Dawkins Lies About William Lane Craig AND Logic! - video and article https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1P6L_QtpZ1pSyOjWvuEOXBWqLFZPdSAWor-MTzKbpVC0bornagain77
February 19, 2011
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Bruce, thank you for your complimentary comments. Regarding #157, I agree with what you said in the second paragraph. It really irks me when people speak as though everything in the ToE is beyond question. And I agree that some people, like the bloggers you refer to, are fighting against religion and for atheism, rather than fighting for "Darwinism", the ToE, or any other aspect of science. I thought I had made my stance on that clear in my other posts but maybe not. Regarding the rest of what you said, I guess we'll have to wait and see. Fasten your seat belt, it could be a bumpy ride. :)Pachyaena
February 19, 2011
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kairosfocus, I don't see any point in arguing the particulars of ID or the ToE or what certain writers or scientists or proselytizers think. It really doesn't matter what I think about ID or the ToE or religion or science. The bottom line is this : If ID adherents WANT science to accept ID theory as a truly scientific theory, ID must first be completely separated from any Gods or religions. And like I already said, even then it would be a tough sale. It's going to take more than inferences. And even if some or much or even all of the theory of Abiogenesis and the ToE are based on inferences, those inferences are much more entrenched in science and have been for a long time, and they would be very hard to displace without some really convincing evidence. A handful of scientists may accept ID theory as being scientific but it will never be accepted on a large scale without the separation I mentioned above. That's just the way it is. As long as people, and especially many ID adherents, connect ID with a God or religion, it will be thought of as simply a religious idea and will be met with scorn by most scientists, and especially evolutionary biologists. Ya know, when it comes right down to it, most people on this planet believe that a creator and/or designer (a God) is responsible for everything. If anything, science is the one with a problem convincing people that Abiogenesis and the ToE explains the origin and diversity of life. No agenda 'wins' anything by convincing or converting one person, and no agenda is going to convince or convert every person. There will always be differing opinions and belief systems, no matter what evidence is discovered.Pachyaena
February 19, 2011
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Pachyaena, I must say I admire your breadth of vision and your ability to see the big picture. And in general I think you are right. I beg to differ on a couple of points, however. First, whereas I'm sure there are a lot of atheists who could care less about Darwinism, I also think that the ones who are determined fighters for it, the ones who contribute to the blogs, who try to destroy the careers of people who show even a whiff of doubt about Darwinism, and the ones who fight tooth and nail to prevent students from being exposed to any criticism of it whatsoever are for the most part not fighting for Darwinism so much as they are fighting for atheism or against religion or both. Second, I strongly disagree with your statement that "ID theory will never be taken seriously by science until and unless it is completely separated from any Gods or religions, and even then it would be be a tough sale." This is just my opinion, of course, but I am quite certain that it is only a matter of time before it becomes accepted that Darwinism simply cannot explain the variety of life and that there is no naturalistic explanation for its origin. My personal view is that there is already abundant scientific evidence to support both those positions, and optimist that I am, I believe that the truth will eventually prevail. Once the majority of scientists realize this, ID will also be accepted, since it is such a natural response to living systems if there is no belief system to block it. Again, my personal view, and only time will tell, but I believe that when that happens, there will be a new birth of spirituality (I use that word deliberately and not "religion") in the world, which, hopefully, will be a lot more open minded than are many of the current religious believers (we won't name any names, but you know who you are!).Bruce David
February 19, 2011
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PS: Also, kindly show me where in the summary as linked and as linked onwards, "any Gods or religions" play any role in the scientific inferences being discussed. You may also find it useful to read and respond on the merits to the NWE survey article on design theory here, and the UD correctives to weak arguments top right this and every UD page. The lead of the former may be excerpted:
Intelligent design (ID) is the view that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that "certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection" [1] Intelligent design cannot be inferred from complexity alone, since complex patterns often happen by chance. ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan. According to adherents, intelligent design can be detected in the natural laws and structure of the cosmos; it also can be detected in at least some features of living things. Greater clarity on the topic may be gained from a discussion of what ID is not considered to be by its leading theorists. Intelligent design generally is not defined the same as creationism, with proponents maintaining that ID relies on scientific evidence rather than on Scripture or religious doctrines. ID makes no claims about biblical chronology, and technically a person does not have to believe in God to infer intelligent design in nature. As a theory, ID also does not specify the identity or nature of the designer, so it is not the same as natural theology, which reasons from nature to the existence and attributes of God. ID does not claim that all species of living things were created in their present forms, and it does not claim to provide a complete account of the history of the universe or of living things. ID also is not considered by its theorists to be an "argument from ignorance"; that is, intelligent design is not to be inferred simply on the basis that the cause of something is unknown (any more than a person accused of willful intent can be convicted without evidence). According to various adherents, ID does not claim that design must be optimal; something may be intelligently designed even if it is flawed (as are many objects made by humans). ID may be considered to consist only of the minimal assertion that it is possible to infer from empirical evidence that some features of the natural world are best explained by an intelligent agent. It conflicts with views claiming that there is no real design in the cosmos (e.g., materialistic philosophy) or in living things (e.g., Darwinian evolution) or that design, though real, is undetectable (e.g., some forms of theistic evolution). Because of such conflicts, ID has generated considerable controversy . . .
kairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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Pachyaena: Kindly respond on the merits to the evidence presented from 137 - 142 above, on pain of coming across as simply reiterating tired NCSE strawman attack points. Then, it would help if you were to respond to the actual case on the merits, e.g. starting with the ongoing summary of the foundational scientific case for the design inference and theory here and in the onward linked series. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 19, 2011
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