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Evolution and Global Warming: Some Underexamined Parallels

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Usually when the topics of Anthropogenic Global Warming (or is it climate change now?) and evolutionary theory are contrasted, the focus is on the validity of the scientific claims associated with both. Is the global temperature average really rising? Is man the cause? Did macroevolution really take place? Does evolution proceed by the mechanisms often claimed? Both sides of both subjects pay a lot of attention, almost exclusive attention, to the foundational scientific questions related to both topics.

But there are important parallels between these topics that too often goes largely ignored – ones which shows that in many ways, the actual science is largely moot. In fact, it’s practically a non-issue when you get right down to it. I come at this from a largely TE perspective on the evolutionary front, and someone who until recently was largely content to shrug and say “Sure, I suppose AGW is at least a reasonable conclusion.” (The Climategate fiasco did serve to nudge me into more of a neutral column.)

Below the cut I’ll explain just what I’m talking about, and how Al Gore has accidentally supplied a crystal-clear example “in the field”.

It’s pedantic to point out, but it still must be said: What motivates most people to get others to “accept AGW” or “accept (Darwinian) evolution” has little to nothing to do with knowledge itself, and far more to do with the actions they hope such a belief will prompt. In the AGW case, the point isn’t to teach others some useful, inert fact like “beavers mate for life”, much less to make people have a firmer grasp of science in general – the express hope is that if someone accepts AGW, they will therefore accept and support specific policies ostensibly meant to combat AGW.

Likewise – I trust I’m not really saying anything groundbreaking on this one – what motivates many people to get others to “accept Darwinian evolution” isn’t the hope that some people will now have this particular belief about biology, period. The hope is that the acceptance of Darwinian evolution will detach them from their religious (and therefore, with luck, social and political) beliefs. You don’t have to go that far to find some very prominent biologists and philosophers saying this explicitly. Now, I did say ‘many’ rather than ‘most’ here, because I think there some who have different, even pro-theistic motivations on this topic – but I’m speaking frankly. And frankly, the draw of evolution for many has been its apparent utility as an anti-religion weapon (among other things), and this has been the case for a long time now.

So one parallel between proponents of AGW and proponents of Darwinism is this: While the topics in question are framed as scientific, the purpose of promoting them are social and political. The goal isn’t really “Get people to believe A”, but “Get people to do B and C”. It’s just that they think “If people believe A, then they will do B and C”. Perhaps because they think there’s something about A which makes B and C more reasonable to do, or even necessary to do. The problem is this complicates matters: It’s possible not only for A to be correct or incorrect, but for B or C to not be necessary or reasonable even given A’s truth. In fact, A may be true, and conceivably (in these abstract terms) B and C may be bad ideas or wrong conclusions.

Let’s move from the ABC talk to a real-world example, helpfully provided by Al Gore.

I’m sure many of you recalled the fairly recent news of Al Gore saying he made a mistake by endorsing ethanol subsidies. Gore, one of the most prominent faces of the AGW movement, had previously boosted corn ethanol subsidies for numerous reasons – and corn ethanol was touted as a way to combat AGW. Gore had this to say about his past commitment on the subject:

One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for President.

Let me pause here a moment to point something out. Gore isn’t saying that he believed corn ethanol was a great idea, but he misunderstood the data, ergo he made a mistake. He’s saying that he wanted to be elected president, certain constituents wanted corn ethanol subsidies, and he was willing to sell this as a great thing for the environment and the nation in exchange for their support. Has the word ‘mistake’ come to mean ‘any act which in retrospect a person claims to regret for any reason, even if they knew what they were doing at the time’?

But that’s beside the point. More central is this: Corn ethanol subsidies would be an example of one of those Bs and Cs that are supposed to follow given the truth of A. But Gore just illustrates the fragility of that move: AGW can be true, but a given policy (touted as necessary to ‘address AGW’) can still be a lousy idea. Corn ethanol subsidies are just a great and prominent example. Maybe the Kyoto treaty was a rotten idea regardless of the truth of AGW. Maybe carbon trading is a lousy idea. Maybe prevention is worse than adaptation. Maybe none of the most popular policies are good ideas. And, as it was with Gore and ethanol, maybe they aren’t being promoted for the reasons their proponents claim.

I want to stress that even if someone is skeptical of AGW, these points – points which assume for the sake of argument the truth of AGW – are tremendously important to raise. Again, what motivates most AGW proponents isn’t the data itself, but the policies they attempt to justify in light of the data. But if the data – even if true! – doesn’t justify their policies, that needs to be noted time and again. Part of the strategy is to make people miss that there’s an extra step beyond simply establishing the truth of “A” in the formula “If A, then B and C are necessary/very reasonable”. But the promotion of B and C are the whole point – and if B and C don’t really follow from A, that’s a point ignored at one’s own peril.

Which brings me back to evolution. As I’ve said before, I’m a TE of sorts. I don’t object to the possibility of intelligent design, or front-loading, or even intervention in nature’s past in one way or another. At the same time, I have no particularly strong ire against the mere claim of macro-evolution and so on – really, they seem like potential design strategies to me. But I do find that very popular line that gets drawn – “If evolution is true, then people should be atheists or reject design/guidance/purpose in nature” – to be utter crap. Rhetoric unjustified by the data, even if the data (not the philosophy or metaphysics often smuggled with it) is taken as true. I admit, the more I look at relatively ‘mainstream’ evolutionary science, the more I see teleology, guidance, and purpose – even as its defenders struggle to ignore, downplay, and deny it. Even if AGW is true, current corn ethanol technology as a way to combat it is a pretty bad idea, and even if evolution is true the atheistic and anti-guidance/design conclusions drawn from its truth are largely inane.

Let me end on this note: Notice that I’m not arguing for the truth of AGW or evolution here. I’ve moved into a more neutral column regarding the former, and the truth of the latter isn’t my focus. But I’m trying to point out, for both AGW skeptics and evolution skeptics, that there are more fronts to fight on than simply the topic of whether AGW or evolution is, at the end of the day, true – because the truth of both AGW and evolution aren’t what matters, even to most of their proponents. It’s what follows, the policies and intellectual conclusions they want to sell you on, given their truth. And if what they want doesn’t follow even granting this truth for the sake of argument, you have everything to gain by pointing this out.

Comments
To bornagain77, whoever wrote this- http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9 doesn't have a clue about the scientific method or the predictions science has made. Not all scientists agree on results, predictions, inferences, or methods, but that article grossly misrepresents the mainstream views in science. The article is completely biased in favor of a Christian viewpoint. It's very obvious that you are obsessed with your 'worldview' and believe that it's the only correct view. People who claim to be 'born again' usually are gung ho about their chosen religion and try hard to get others to believe in it too. What you should try to realize though is that your religious beliefs aren't right just because you think they are. I love chocolate milk but that doesn't mean that everyone should love chocolate milk. I didn't look at your other links because my internet connection is too slow to watch videos and because they're probably just more biased fluff anyway. Inferring that 'God' created and designed everything is no different than inferring that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created and designed everything. Anything can be made to fit anything if a person tries hard enough. Verifiable evidence is the only thing that really matters though, and there's no evidence to back up any claims about the Christian God or any other God. Another thing to consider is that just because science doesn't have evidence for some things right now doesn't mean it never will. Many people are WAY too impatient and want all the answers to every question right now. If there are no verifiable answers, or no evidence, or only incomplete evidence, or evidence that they just don't like, they make up some stories or a deity to convince themselves and others that they actually have the answers. What the hurry? What's so bad about not knowing everything, either now or ever? Why are some people so obsessed with filling in gaps with fairy tale nonsense just because they are too impatient to wait for real evidence? If humans had everything on this planet or in the universe completely figured out, life would be pretty dull. One of the things that interests me about nature is that there are always new things to discover and learn about. I'm actually glad that nature is so wondrous and complex.Pachyaena
February 17, 2011
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Pachyaena, I would like to echo what Bruce David said about your contribution. I agree with much of what you said, but even if I didn't, you come across very clearly, thoughtfully, and with much integrity. I, like you, find the truth claims of religion to be without foundation, arrogant, and the evidence of closed minds rather than an honest search for the truth. BA, how can you say the bible is an accurate predictor of the natural world when according to most interpretations it says the earth is six thousand years old?zeroseven
February 17, 2011
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@Pachyaena, I didn't mean to imply I was directly quoting what you said, but of course I do mean to imply it was the essence, which you seem to affirm in your last reply. What I said about scientists disagreeing and you presumably thinking it OK, well, I did say specifically that I suppose you think that. I knew you didn't say it specifically and that I may be wrong. It was a chance I was willing to take. I was wrong, and am happy to be because I'd rather be wrong than for you or anyone else to be so blatantly hypocritical. You failed to respond or acknowledge my original reply to you that Christians overwhelmingly agree on what the Bible teaches. Perhaps you could identify some of these disagreements that would seem to doom the Christian religion to the dust bin? Disagreements among Christians are on relatively minor issues. This is also what I was originally referring to about you not being integral because you fail to see what, in my opinion, should be obvious to any objective evaluation.Brent
February 17, 2011
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F/N: CSL audio parts 2 and 3, 4, 5 and so on. (PS: CSL in his own voice in a tape that survived the recycling to save materials policy in effect in the war.)kairosfocus
February 17, 2011
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Onlookers: It might be very useful to listen to C S Lewis' Mere Christianity here. If you are interested in what it takes to --
1: recognise and address the problems of selective hyperskepticism and ideologised closed-mindedness in general, 2: Address same regarding the authenticity and core warrant for the Christian Faith "once for all delivered unto the saints," 3: Build a reasonable and well-warranted worldview in light of first principles of right reason and well-warranted inferences from basic facts about our world, 4: Understand the core basis for the reasonableness and credibility of the Christian faith, and 5: Understand what C S Lewis was talking about when he spoke of in-common mere Christianity, and its biblical basis
. . . I have provided some links that may prove helpful. (I note as well, that "I don't like X [and can't be bothered to check out what could warrant its truth, or what warrants a credible worldview in general] and have no interest in truly understanding why quite educated, decent and informed people including historically pivotal ones have believed X" is not a good basis for rejecting X.) Cheers, GEM of TKIkairosfocus
February 17, 2011
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Brent, I didn't say the words you quoted me as saying. If you're going to quote me, make it honest and accurate. I also never said or implied that it's okay for scientists to disagree or fight but not for religious people to disagree or fight. In fact, I often see the disagreements and fights on either 'side' as a good reason to question whatever is being said, and the disagreements and/or fights make me realize that many things are not and may never be settled. I find it especially interesting that religious people disagree or fight about the particulars of their religion. I guess that's why there are so many versions of Christianity and some other religions. Like I said before, just about everyone thinks they know everything and that anyone who doesn’t agree with them must be wrong, whether it pertains to science, religion, politics, or anything else. I see the same attitude in most humans, regardless of the subject matter. Most people consider themselves expert in regard to at least some topics (even though they often won't admit it). Scientists are often too arrogant and stubborn to listen to new or challenging information and so are politicians, religious believers, and many others. Sometimes I think there must be a whole bunch of genes in humans that make us arrogant and stubborn.Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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@Pachyaena, And, if fighting is the sign that one doesn't have truth, and you are fighting here, now, you have shown that what you said isn't true. So far,then, you haven't said anything!Brent
February 16, 2011
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@Pachyaena, No, you don't get it. The point was that in the original post I was responding to you obviously were not using a valid, integral, critically thought out argument to dispense with Christianity. "They all fight just like everyone else." First of all, there is no apparent contradiction in the premise that two people who believe in the same world view but disagree on some points within it, may still have a correct overall world view. You were starting off on the wrong foot to begin with. So, in the post I was responding to, you definitely showed a lack of integrity and critical thinking. I suppose the same "fighting" that you use to dismiss the Christian message, you conversely tout as a great triumph for the scientific community. In science the fighting is for the pursuit of truth, or further truth, but in Christianity it is because they obviously don't have any truth??? Wow me with your logic in another area, pretty please. In response to another post further down, you set up a straw man to try to get rid of Christianity. You start talking about what if you, he, she, it, we, they had been born another place . . . blah, blah, blah. Wouldn't it do your integrity and critical thinking more good to first investigate what Christianity and the Bible actually teaches about this, and then attempt to criticize the real Christianity? A few minutes on Google can do a lot, ya know?Brent
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena: I must say I really like your point of view and your way of expressing yourself. You really are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for contributing. Just for the record, I included atheism in the term "spiritual perspective", well, because I think it is a spiritual perspective, at least in the sense that it is a belief about spirituality. It also enabled me to word my comment a little more concisely. If you have been following this very long thread (which I have found to be one of the more interesting ones of late) then you pretty much know what my beliefs are and the path that brought me to them. I use the term God because it is the most familiar term to the people who tend to post to these threads, but it is also a term that is loaded with religious connotations, and perhaps I should use another, such as "All That Is" or some such. I don't agree, however, that God implies religion. I consider myself spiritual but not religious. I believe that there is a God for a number of reasons. First, I don't think materialism can explain everything, particularly our actual experience. No one has the slightest idea how experience (sights, sounds, emotions, even thoughts) could possibly arise out of complex electro-chemical activity in a totally material brain. Second, I see science as pointing strongly to the existence of a creator--the Big Bang, the fine tuning of the physical and cosmological constants, the problem of the origin of life, and what I see as the total failure of Darwinism. Third, and this has been very important for me, I find the people from all spiritual traditions who seem to know some spiritual truth (e.g., Rumi, Yogananda, Lao Tzu, Abn al Arabi (a Sufi philosopher), St. Francis) to profoundly influence my beliefs regarding the existence of a creator. Well, I guess this has gone on long enough. I'll end now.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, Though It may sound crazy to you (and exactly what part of quantum mechanics does not sound crazy to you by the way?), the fact is that with what certainty we can ascertain reality through science, the Bible is far above, in correct predictions, any competing worldview for how the universe came to be and operates; Theism compared Materialism http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dc8z67wz_5fwz42dg9 It is also very interesting to note that among all the 'holy' books, of all the major religions in the world, only the Holy Bible was, and is, correct in its claim for a transcendent origin of the universe. Some later 'holy' books, such as the Mormon text "Pearl of Great Price" and the Qur'an, copy the concept of a transcendent origin from the Bible but also include teachings that are inconsistent with that now established fact. (Ross; Why The Universe Is The Way It Is; Pg. 228; Chpt.9; note 5) The Uniqueness of Genesis 1:1 - William Lane Craig - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBXdQCkISo0 The best data we have [concerning the Big Bang] are exactly what I would have predicted, had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the bible as a whole. Dr. Arno Penzias, Nobel Laureate in Physics - co-discoverer of the Cosmic Background Radiation - as stated to the New York Times on March 12, 1978 “Certainly there was something that set it all off,,, I can’t think of a better theory of the origin of the universe to match Genesis” Robert Wilson – Nobel laureate – co-discover Cosmic Background Radiation “There is no doubt that a parallel exists between the big bang as an event and the Christian notion of creation from nothing.” George Smoot – Nobel laureate in 2006 for his work on COBE “,,,the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world,,, the essential element in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis is the same.” Robert Jastrow – Founder of NASA’s Goddard Institute – Pg.15 ‘God and the Astronomers’ Prof. Henry F. Schaefer cites several interesting quotes, from leading scientists in the field of Big Bang cosmology, about the Theological implications of the Big Bang in the following video: The Big Bang and the God of the Bible - Henry Schaefer PhD. - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5222493 further note: Little known by most people is the fact that almost every, if not every, major branch of modern science has been founded by a scientist who believed in Christ: Christianity and The Birth of Science - Michael Bumbulis, Ph.D Excerpt: Furthermore, many of these founders of science lived at a time when others publicly expressed views quite contrary to Christianity - Hume, Hobbes, Darwin, etc. When Boyle argues against Hobbe's materialism or Kelvin argues against Darwin's assumptions, you don't have a case of "closet atheists." http://ldolphin.org/bumbulis/ Christianity Gave Birth To Each Scientific Discipline - Dr. Henry Fritz Schaefer - video http://vimeo.com/16523153 A Short List Of The Christian Founders Of Modern Science http://www.creationsafaris.com/wgcs_toc.htm Founders of Modern Science Who Believe in GOD - Tihomir Dimitrov http://www.scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/viewFile/18/18 The Origin of Science Excerpt: Modern science is not only compatible with Christianity, it in fact finds its origins in Christianity. http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/science_origin.html also of note; The following video is far more direct in establishing the 'spiritual' link to man's ability to learn new information, in that it shows that the SAT (Scholastic Aptitude Test) scores for students showed a steady decline, for seventeen years from the top spot or near the top spot in the world, after the removal of prayer from the public classroom by the Supreme Court in 1963. Whereas the SAT scores for private Christian schools have consistently remained at the top, or near the top, spot in the world: The Real Reason American Education Has Slipped – David Barton – video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4318930 Pachyaena, I hope that helps clear up a few 'crazy' misconceptions you may have towards Theism in general and Christianity in particularbornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Bruce, do you see what is happening here? You [your author?] advocate pantheism, but often abandon the tenets of pantheism when it becomes necessary or convenient only to revert back to it at other times. According to pantheism, there can be only one real being. Everything else is an illusion. Indeed, you described reality as God’s dream. That is classic pantheism--any person other than God is an illusion. Insofar as you acknowledge that persons are, indeed, real, so real that they can make life changing decisions, you are not a pantheist. Again, in classic pantheism, those things [people] that appear to be different are not really different at all. Yet you acknowledge that people are different. Again, that is not pantheism. It is true, to be sure, but it isn’t pantheistic. Further, you insist that humans can live on after death, a completely anti-pantheistic notion. Only those who have souls can live on after death, and pantheism rules out that realm. Equally important, pantheism rules out the prospect of a creator, yet you have God creating us with the ability to make free will decisions. What it all adds up to is this: You often use pantheistic terms, but you borrow freely from the Christian metaphysic when you need it. You seem to realize instinctively that pantheism, as a thought system, cannot work.StephenB
February 16, 2011
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bornagain77, I don't automatically believe anything or everything I see or hear regarding relativity, quantum theory, the ToE, or any other aspect of science. I'm skeptical of just about everything until I see convincing evidence. Some evidence in science is strong or even totally convincing, but some is weak or non-existent. More answers will be discovered but there will always be mysteries. Even if science were wrong about absolutely everything, that wouldn't make any religious beliefs real. To me, it's not an 'either/or' situation. Any person could have a good life without ever knowing or believing anything that has to do with science or religion. Inferences don't prove anything, whether they're based on science or religious beliefs. Some scientific inferences MAY be reasonable, although actual evidence is much better, but to claim that the Bible holds the truth or evidence or reality of how the universe came about and/or how it works is just plain crazy.Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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Bruce, I agree that a person's beliefs (or lack thereof) can or will color the way they see the ID/evolution debate and I also agree that many people are "Darwinists" simply because they're against religion. I don't necessarily agree that the science doesn't support the ToE. I think that some evidence is strong, but some is weak. Someday it may be stronger, or weaker. Time will tell. Most people feel that they have to have a defined belief system and that it must have a label. In a way it reminds me of the way taxonomists endlessly argue about which name is the correct one for a particular organism. The organism couldn't care less, unless the organism is a human. Humans are hung up on things that are often ridiculous and unproductive. Just think about how labels on clothing and other items can make a huge difference in the price. It's crazy. The word deity implies a God and a God implies religion. To me, the concept of a creator or designer of some sort doesn't necessarily include a 'God' and it definitely doesn't include religion. I think it's possible that there is or was a creator or designer of some sort but I don't think it's any of the Gods or deities that humans have invented. For one thing, the universe is much bigger and much more complex than any religion (and the associated God(s)) has ever considered or accounted for. Religion is small thinking. Extremely small. It doesn't take into consideration anywhere near all of the processes and realities of this world, let alone all that goes on in the universe. I consider myself an atheist because I don't believe in any Gods, and I don't see my lack of belief in any Gods as just another type of religion or as a spiritual perspective, unless the lack of belief in spirits is a spiritual perspective. I think that some people do practice atheism as though it's their religion. They proselytize it just as much as evangelists proselytize their religions. Some people are atheists even though they don't know anything about science and couldn't care less about science. They're simply against Gods and religion. Others do know something about science and do care about it and try to show that science is a better way of understanding the way nature works. I definitely lean toward science but I also realize that science doesn't have all the answers and likely never will. I'm okay with not knowing some things and not having all the answers. Sure, I'd like to know everything but that's not going to happen, and I'm not going to invent some belief system or adhere to one already invented that fools me into thinking that I do know everything. Some people also believe that good morals are based on belief in a God, and of course they mean their particular God. They often say that the threat of eternal punishment is the means by which all people are held to decency and compassion. I totally disagree with that. For some people it may convince them to behave nicely but the forgiveness stuff in some religions (like Christianity) also gives them an excuse to behave badly and get away with it. To me, Christianity is a mass of contradiction and inconsistencies. It has so many versions and alterations as to be a complete joke. I seem to be an oddball in that I don't need a religious crutch or some defined philosophy with a label on it, and I'm also content with thinking that when I die I will just be dead, forever. Who knows, I may meet a God when I die but for all I or anyone else knows it may be Zeus or Thor. I really don't care though because I'm doing the best I can with this life and am not concerned with any 'after' life. Besides, I would never worship any God that is as cruel and selfish as the Christian God is said to be in the Bible. How others believe doesn't concern me unless they try to convert me or try to force their beliefs into schools, politics, or law. I think it would be fascinating if a creator or designer could be discovered and proven but I doubt that it will ever happen. There are many things that humans will never know. In the meantime, many people will claim they know it all, whether they're scientists or religious believers.Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, I would really like to see you step up to the plate and try to play the materialistic hand out for the teleportation experiment I cited in post 106. ,,,Will you try to invoke a 'Many-Many Worlds' hypothesis since the absurd 'Many Worlds' hypothesis has already been exhausted trying to get around the clear Theistic implications of quantum wave collapse?,,, ,,, Please do tell how does teleportation of atoms happen within the materialistic framework when no further imagined infinite probabilistic resource is available to call upon for the materialist? It is interesting to note that materialists, instead of honestly dealing with the obvious theistic implications of quantum mechanics, will many times invoke something called Everett's Many Worlds interpretation, also referred to as decoherence, when dealing with quantum mechanics. Yet this 'solution' ends up creating profound absurdities of logic rather than providing any rational solution: Quantum mechanics Excerpt: The Everett many-worlds interpretation, formulated in 1956, holds that all the possibilities described by quantum theory simultaneously occur in a multiverse composed of mostly independent parallel universes.[39] This is not accomplished by introducing some new axiom to quantum mechanics, but on the contrary by removing the axiom of the collapse of the wave packet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics Perhaps some may say that Everett’s Many Worlds interpretation of infinite parallel universes is not so absurd after all, if so,, then in some other parallel universe in which you also live, Elvis just so happens to be president of the United states, and you just so happen to come to the opposite conclusion, in that parallel universe, that Many Worlds is in fact absurd! For me, I find that type of 'flexible thinking', stemming from Many Worlds, to be completely absurd!!! Moreover, that one example from Many Worlds, of Elvis being President, is just small potatoes to the levels of absurdity that we would actually be witnessing if Many Worlds were the truth for how reality was constructed.bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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StephanB I realized that I had misunderstood your argument. See #103. But, you are wrong that "humans are not making decisions as independent agents". That is the central mystery of my particular point of view: God created us as part of Himself, yet He found a way to give us freedom. I will freely admit that I don't fully understand how He did this, but I do take His word for it (as stated in my own source of revelation, Conversations with God, of course).Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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[If Mao, as part of God, decides to commit genocide, and if Mother Teresa, as another part of God, resolves to save lives, perhaps even those same lives, then God, who is said to be both of these people, and is therefore making both decisions, is at war with himself. It just doesn’t work.] ---Bruce: "The reason you don’t understand it is that you insist on assuming what I do not, that evil exists in God’s eyes. Take away that assumption, and there is no conflict." But I do understand it. I didn't say anything about evil in God's eyes. I simply pointed out that, from a pantheistic perspective, two of God's parts, that is, two humans who see the world differently, act differently, and decide differently cannot be reconciled with a unified Diety that is also said to be the ultimate decision maker. Simply telling me that they can be reconciled will not suffice. Don't forget, that under your system, humans are not making decisions as independent agents, they are making decisions as "parts of God." Thus, insofar as humans have conflicting values, and make decisions that reflect those conflicting values, God is at war with himself, independent of any claims about evil. Sorry, but your system just doesn't work.StephenB
February 16, 2011
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Hey! I’m new. Sorta. Nice to meet you all. I lurk around a bit from time to time and decinded to finally stop by thanks in large part to Pachyaena. So thanks Pach... wherever you are. Well… I guess I’ll dive right in to the firestorm. Pachyaena, you write: “This site will also never be taken seriously by science if religious beliefs are allowed to be discussed here. Either ID is a religious thing, or it’s not. Which is it?” This is a weird argument. Just because religion is being discussed on a science board the science must be religious? Weird. Why wouldn’t it be taken seriously by science anyway? Religion is discussed on Evolution boards across the country. Sure, usually it’s in mocking tone but it’s discussed none-the-less. Also, there are religious people on this board (like me) because the science behind ID appears to support our worldview. So of course you’ll get religious people coming in droves. It would be weird if it didn’t. You also say: “You and other religious people are the ones who are shielding yourselves. You have your minds completely made up and are not open to anything new or anything that challenges your belief system. You are blind and deaf in advance.” The problem with this statement is… well… much of the same could be said of you. Most of the post where you tout your ‘Critical Thinking’ reads like your basic hard atheist/anti-religious internet poster spiel. Heck, Bill Maher (who is a closet theist btw) said mostly the exact same thing on some rant with a Christian who had him on his show for some reason (saw it on youtube). There’s little about it that’s new. There’s also no indication that you’ve applied ‘Critical Thinking’ to Darwinian evolution or atheism or even being open to the possibility of an outside agency hovering about. It appears you’ve made up your mind just like we have. Why you don’t recognize that is curious. I expect I'll be 'rebutted' in a few minutes, but whatever. Nice chatting with you! - SonfaroSonfaro
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, please forgive me for the information overload on the previous post of mine, let's start over on this 'materialism thing' from a very simple point instead. Please explain this one simple experiment to me in a pure reductive materialistic framework, as is required to be explained for the classic view of atheism/materialism to be considered true; Atom takes a quantum leap - 2009 Excerpt: Ytterbium ions have been 'teleported' over a distance of a metre.,,, "What you're moving is information, not the actual atoms," says Chris Monroe, from the Joint Quantum Institute at the University of Maryland in College Park and an author of the paper. But as two particles of the same type differ only in their quantum states, the transfer of quantum information is equivalent to moving the first particle to the location of the second. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2171769/posts Ions have been teleported successfully for the first time by two independent research groups Excerpt: In fact, copying isn't quite the right word for it. In order to reproduce the quantum state of one atom in a second atom, the original has to be destroyed. This is unavoidable - it is enforced by the laws of quantum mechanics, which stipulate that you can't 'clone' a quantum state. In principle, however, the 'copy' can be indistinguishable from the original (that was destroyed),,, http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/Issues/2004/October/beammeup.aspbornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, I would like to add the observation that one's spiritual perspective, be it atheism, Christianity, or some weird far out philosophy like mine, is bound to influence how one views the Darwinism/ID debate. Most Darwinists are Darwinists not because the science supports it (it really doesn't), but because it dovetails with and supports their atheist/materialist point of view. (Or, in the case of certain theistic evolutionists, because it saves them from having to confront some tricky problems of God being responsible for the apparent cruelty that exists in nature.) Likewise, I believe that ID is really only a viable option to someone who is willing to posit the possibility of a designer operating long before any intelligent beings were around on this planet in physical form, which pretty much limits it to those who believe in some kind of deity. The point I am trying to make is that this debate (the Darwinism/ID one, I mean) will inevitably be strongly colored by the spiritual/religious perspectives of the protagonists, whatever their position.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Brent said: "Pachyaena, if you knew the difference between right and wrong you’d be a Christian." You must be joking. I know the difference between right and wrong because of being shown the difference by my parents, teachers, and others in my life, and because I have observed the results of rights and wrongs. Brent said: "Whatever keeps you shielded from the truth doesn’t, in my opinion, stem from either integrity or critical thinking." Yeah, right, you know everything, just like other religious people. I can't have integrity or be using critical thinking unless I conform to whatever religious beliefs you have. Actually, it's because I have integrity and use critical thinking that I am not religious. I don't need a fairy tale crutch to be a good person or to appreciate and respect all of nature. Religious beliefs are not required. And yes, I am right about everything I said in the post of mine that you responded to. Everything I said is based on actual observations and critical thinking. You and other religious people are the ones who are shielding yourselves. You have your minds completely made up and are not open to anything new or anything that challenges your belief system. You are blind and deaf in advance. Apparently it gives you comfort to think you already know the "truth" and all the answers but I'll never understand why anyone would want to limit themselves to such a narrow point of view as in religious beliefs. You might want to do some critical thinking and realize that your way isn't the only way. Believing in a God does not make you a God.Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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StephenB: Here is a better response to your last comment (#96): God has created billions of souls, several billions of which are currently embodied on this planet (God is nothing if not extravagant!). They all have their own beliefs, actions, and points of view, often at odds with each other, and each is a part of God. I see no contradiction for God to have set this up if it serves His purpose, which I believe it does, for reasons I have gone into at length above. God, being omnipotent and all, can do anything He wants, as long as it isn't logically contradictory, and it isn't a logical contradiction for one part of a being to have a different agenda from another part of the same being. I create characters like that in my dreams all the time.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena, C'mon, be fair here. No one here is talking about ID, really - pro or anti. This whole comment thread has spun off into a different sort of argument. Judging ID based on this sort of conflict is like judging evolution based on what goes on in Myers' comboxes.nullasalus
February 16, 2011
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Perhaps this might help you prepare your defense Pachyaena Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a 'theory of everything'.(Einstein, Penrose). The Physics Of The Large And Small: What Is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: This, (the unification of General Relativity and Quantum Field theory), would also have practical advantages in the application of quantum ideas to subjects like biology - in which one does not have the clean distinction between a quantum system and its classical measuring apparatus that our present formalism requires. In my opinion, moreover, this revolution is needed if we are ever to make significant headway towards a genuine scientific understanding of the mysterious but very fundamental phenomena of conscious mentality. Quantum Mechanics Not In Jeopardy: Physicists Confirm Decades-Old Key Principle Experimentally - July 2010 Excerpt: the research group led by Prof. Gregor Weihs from the University of Innsbruck and the University of Waterloo has confirmed the accuracy of Born’s law in a triple-slit experiment (as opposed to the double slit experiment). "The existence of third-order interference terms would have tremendous theoretical repercussions - it would shake quantum mechanics to the core," says Weihs. The impetus for this experiment was the suggestion made by physicists to generalize either quantum mechanics or gravitation - the two pillars of modern physics - to achieve unification, thereby arriving at a one all-encompassing theory. "Our experiment thwarts these efforts once again," explains Gregor Weihs. (of note: Born's Law is an axiom that dictates that quantum interference can only occur between pairs of probabilities, not triplet or higher order probabilities. If they would have detected higher order interference patterns this would have potentially allowed a reformulation of quantum mechanics that is compatible with, or even incorporates, gravitation.) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100722142640.htm The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory: THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to todays physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics.,,, What the two theories have in common -- and what they clash over -- is zero. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm The following Physicist offers a very interesting insight into this issue of 'reconciling' the mental universe of Quantum Mechanics with the space-time of General Relativity: How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: Quantum mechanics and relativity theory are the two prime theoretical constructs of modern physics, and for quantum mechanics and relativity theory to be internally self-consistent, their calculations require that the vacuum must contain an energy density 10^94 grams per cubic centimeter. How much energy is that? To find out you simply use Einstein's equation: E=MC2. Here's how this comes out in practical terms. You could take the volume of, say, a single hydrogen atom (which is incredibly small, an infinitesimally small fraction of a cubic centimeter), and multiply that by the average mass density of the cosmos, a number which is known to astronomers. And what you find out is that within the amount of vacuum contained in this hydrogen atom there is, according to this calculation, "almost a trillion times as much energy as in all of the stars and all of the planets out to a radius of 20 billion light years!" If human consciousness can interact with that even a little bit, it can change things in matter. Because the ground state energies of all particles have that energy level due to their interaction with this stuff of the vacuum. So if you can shift that stuff of the vacuum, change its degree of order or coherence even a little bit, you can change the ground state energies of particles, atoms, molecules, and chemical equations.,,,, In conclusion Tiller states, "despite our attachment to it and our feeling of its solidity and persistence, what we think of as the physical universe is an almost incomprehensibly minuscule part of the immensity of All That Is." "Matter as we know it," Tiller concludes poetically, "is hardly a fragrance of a whisper." http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/tiller.htm Yet, the unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this 'unification' of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Moreover there actually is physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the 'Zero/Infinity conflict', we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram - Face And Body - Dr. Petrus Soons - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustine Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While I agree with a criticism, from a Christian, that was leveled against the preceding Shroud of Turin video, that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ since all things are possible with God, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of Physicists and Mathematicians in physics today, of a 'unification into a theory of everything' for what is in essence the finite world of General Relativity and the infinite world of Quantum Mechanics, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for 'unification' within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the 'scientific evidence' we now have that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a almost tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart.bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Perhaps this might help you prepare your defense Pachyaena Intelligent Design - The Anthropic Hypothesis http://lettherebelight-77.blogspot.com/2009/10/intelligent-design-anthropic-hypothesis_19.html Excerpt: I find it extremely interesting, and strange, that quantum mechanics tells us that instantaneous quantum wave collapse to its 'uncertain' 3-D state is centered on each individual observer in the universe, whereas, 4-D space-time cosmology (General Relativity) tells us each 3-D point in the universe is central to the expansion of the universe. These findings of modern science are pretty much exactly what we would expect to see if this universe were indeed created from a higher dimension by a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, eternal Being who knows everything that is happening everywhere in the universe at the same time. These findings certainly seem to go to the very heart of the age old question asked of many parents by their children, “How can God hear everybody’s prayers at the same time?”,,, i.e. Why should the expansion of the universe, or the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe, even care that you or I, or anyone else, should exist? Only Theism offers a rational explanation as to why you or I, or anyone else, should have such undeserved significance in such a vast universe: Psalm 33:13-15 The LORD looks from heaven; He sees all the sons of men. From the place of His dwelling He looks on all the inhabitants of the earth; He fashions their hearts individually; He considers all their works. The expansion of every 3D point in the universe, and the quantum wave collapse of the entire universe to each point of conscious observation in the universe, is obviously a very interesting congruence in science between the very large (relativity) and the very small (quantum mechanics). A congruence that Physicists, and Mathematicians, seem to be having a extremely difficult time 'unifying' into a 'theory of everything'.(Einstein, Penrose). The Physics Of The Large And Small: What Is the Bridge Between Them? Roger Penrose Excerpt: This, (the unification of General Relativity and Quantum Field theory), would also have practical advantages in the application of quantum ideas to subjects like biology - in which one does not have the clean distinction between a quantum system and its classical measuring apparatus that our present formalism requires. In my opinion, moreover, this revolution is needed if we are ever to make significant headway towards a genuine scientific understanding of the mysterious but very fundamental phenomena of conscious mentality. http://www.pul.it/irafs/CD%20IRAFS%2702/texts/Penrose.pdf Quantum Mechanics Not In Jeopardy: Physicists Confirm Decades-Old Key Principle Experimentally - July 2010 Excerpt: the research group led by Prof. Gregor Weihs from the University of Innsbruck and the University of Waterloo has confirmed the accuracy of Born’s law in a triple-slit experiment (as opposed to the double slit experiment). "The existence of third-order interference terms would have tremendous theoretical repercussions - it would shake quantum mechanics to the core," says Weihs. The impetus for this experiment was the suggestion made by physicists to generalize either quantum mechanics or gravitation - the two pillars of modern physics - to achieve unification, thereby arriving at a one all-encompassing theory. "Our experiment thwarts these efforts once again," explains Gregor Weihs. (of note: Born's Law is an axiom that dictates that quantum interference can only occur between pairs of probabilities, not triplet or higher order probabilities. If they would have detected higher order interference patterns this would have potentially allowed a reformulation of quantum mechanics that is compatible with, or even incorporates, gravitation.) http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100722142640.htm The conflict of reconciling General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics appears to arise from the inability of either theory to successfully deal with the Zero/Infinity problem that crops up in different places of each theory: THE MYSTERIOUS ZERO/INFINITY Excerpt: The biggest challenge to todays physicists is how to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics.,,, What the two theories have in common -- and what they clash over -- is zero. http://www.fmbr.org/editoral/edit01_02/edit6_mar02.htm The following Physicist offers a very interesting insight into this issue of 'reconciling' the mental universe of Quantum Mechanics with the space-time of General Relativity: How the Power of Intention Alters Matter - Dr. William A. Tiller Excerpt: Quantum mechanics and relativity theory are the two prime theoretical constructs of modern physics, and for quantum mechanics and relativity theory to be internally self-consistent, their calculations require that the vacuum must contain an energy density 10^94 grams per cubic centimeter. How much energy is that? To find out you simply use Einstein's equation: E=MC2. Here's how this comes out in practical terms. You could take the volume of, say, a single hydrogen atom (which is incredibly small, an infinitesimally small fraction of a cubic centimeter), and multiply that by the average mass density of the cosmos, a number which is known to astronomers. And what you find out is that within the amount of vacuum contained in this hydrogen atom there is, according to this calculation, "almost a trillion times as much energy as in all of the stars and all of the planets out to a radius of 20 billion light years!" If human consciousness can interact with that even a little bit, it can change things in matter. Because the ground state energies of all particles have that energy level due to their interaction with this stuff of the vacuum. So if you can shift that stuff of the vacuum, change its degree of order or coherence even a little bit, you can change the ground state energies of particles, atoms, molecules, and chemical equations.,,,, In conclusion Tiller states, "despite our attachment to it and our feeling of its solidity and persistence, what we think of as the physical universe is an almost incomprehensibly minuscule part of the immensity of All That Is." "Matter as we know it," Tiller concludes poetically, "is hardly a fragrance of a whisper." http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/mar2/tiller.htm Yet, the unification, into a 'theory of everything', between what is in essence the 'infinite world of Quantum Mechanics' and the 'finite world of the space-time of General Relativity' seems to be directly related to what Jesus apparently joined together with His resurrection, i.e. related to the unification of infinite God with finite man. Dr. William Dembski in this following comment, though not directly addressing the Zero/Infinity conflict in General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, offers insight into this 'unification' of the infinite and the finite: The End Of Christianity - Finding a Good God in an Evil World - Pg.31 William Dembski PhD. Mathematics Excerpt: "In mathematics there are two ways to go to infinity. One is to grow large without measure. The other is to form a fraction in which the denominator goes to zero. The Cross is a path of humility in which the infinite God becomes finite and then contracts to zero, only to resurrect and thereby unite a finite humanity within a newfound infinity." http://www.designinference.com/documents/2009.05.end_of_xty.pdf Moreover there actually is physical evidence that lends strong support to the position that the 'Zero/Infinity conflict', we find between General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, was successfully dealt with by Christ: The Center Of The Universe Is Life - General Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, Entropy and The Shroud Of Turin - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5070355 Turin Shroud Enters 3D Age - Pictures, Articles and Videos https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1gDY4CJkoFedewMG94gdUk1Z1jexestdy5fh87RwWAfg Turin Shroud 3-D Hologram - Face And Body - Dr. Petrus Soons - video http://www.metacafe.com/w/5889891/ A Quantum Hologram of Christ's Resurrection? by Chuck Missler Excerpt: “You can read the science of the Shroud, such as total lack of gravity, lack of entropy (without gravitational collapse), no time, no space—it conforms to no known law of physics.” The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. Dame Piczek created a one-fourth size sculpture of the man in the Shroud. When viewed from the side, it appears as if the man is suspended in mid air (see graphic, below), indicating that the image defies previously accepted science. The phenomenon of the image brings us to a true event horizon, a moment when all of the laws of physics change drastically. http://www.khouse.org/articles/2008/847 "Miracles do not happen in contradiction to nature, but only in contradiction to that which is known to us of nature." St. Augustine Philippians 2: 5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While I agree with a criticism, from a Christian, that was leveled against the preceding Shroud of Turin video, that God indeed needed no help from the universe in the resurrection event of Christ since all things are possible with God, I am none-the-less very happy to see that what is considered the number one problem of Physicists and Mathematicians in physics today, of a 'unification into a theory of everything' for what is in essence the finite world of General Relativity and the infinite world of Quantum Mechanics, does in fact seem to find a successful resolution for 'unification' within the resurrection event of Jesus Christ Himself. It seems almost overwhelmingly apparent to me from the 'scientific evidence' we now have that Christ literally ripped a hole in the finite entropic space-time of this universe to reunite infinite God with finite man. That modern science would even offer such a almost tangible glimpse into the mechanics of what happened in the tomb of Christ should be a source of great wonder and comfort for the Christian heart.bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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Pachyaena you quote me; “Thus your philosophy is also as unfounded in reality as materialism is.” and then state; I’d say that you have a lot to learn about “reality”. Perhaps you would like to defend materialism/atheism? Really Pachyaena, I would very much like for you to try teach me about the 'material' foundation of this reality!bornagain77
February 16, 2011
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bornagain77 said: "Thus your philosophy is also as unfounded in reality as materialism is." I'd say that you have a lot to learn about "reality". Your "philosophy" is founded on blind faith and arrogance. Like most religious people, you think that your belief system is the only correct one. Has it ever occurred to you that if you had been born in, say, Iran, or Borneo, or India, or Myanmar, you would not likely be a Christian? And what if you had been born a thousand years ago in North America, or South America? How about ten thousand years ago, anywhere on Earth? When was Christianity invented by humans? Is everyone on Earth a Christian? Will all the people who weren't and aren't Christians burn in some Hell simply because they weren't born in the right place at the right time, or because they don't choose to be a Christian, or because they don't interpret and/or practice Christianity exactly like you do? Are you being a true Christian by speaking as though you know all the answers? This site is allegedly devoted to ID and I'm pretty sure I've read posts here that say that ID isn't necessarily a religious belief. Atheists on the internet regularly say that ID is just another religious belief that pretends to be scientific and that ID bloggers are being dishonest by claiming that they are not pushing a religious agenda. I understand why atheists and/or scientists would think that way, since most ID adherents do push their religious beliefs. If ID is ever going to be taken seriously by science, it has to be completely separated from religion. It must stand on its own, without any reference at all to religion or philosophy. As long as ID is connected to religious beliefs in any way, and not founded in reality, science will not see it as anything other than just another religious fairy tale. This site will also never be taken seriously by science if religious beliefs are allowed to be discussed here. Either ID is a religious thing, or it's not. Which is it?Pachyaena
February 16, 2011
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Born Again: We've had 2000years of judgment, condemnation, punishment, and fear of Hell. Look around at the world today and tell me how well that has worked. I say it's time to try something else, like love (the unconditional variety), compassion, understanding, and communication (especially listening).Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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StephenB The reason you don't understand it is that you insist on assuming what I do not, that evil exists in God's eyes. Take away that assumption, and there is no conflict.Bruce David
February 16, 2011
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Bruce, you have been a good sport. I appreciate it. The problem, however, persists. If Mao, as part of God, decides to commit genocide, and if Mother Teresa, as another part of God, resolves to save lives, perhaps even those same lives, then God, who is said to be both of these people, and is therefore making both decisions, is at war with himself. It just doesn't work.StephenB
February 16, 2011
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Bruce David, I just pointed out exactly where both your philosophy and atheism coincide. They both fail when they try to account for objective morals! It seems that your distaste for you, or anyone else, having to face eternal consequences for their 'evil' actions in this life (hell) has driven you to the absurd position of trying to redefine God in a way that makes him into sort of a cosmic gummy bear instead of The moral Law giver and upholder. But in doing so you have rendered your philosophy unable to deal with 'real world' moral issues. Thus your philosophy is also as unfounded in reality as materialism is.bornagain77
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