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Gambler’s ruin is Darwin’s ruin

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The same day I first watched “Expelled” in theaters, I also watched the movie “21”. The movie “21” is based on the true story of MIT students who made a fortune in Las Vegas casinos through the use of mathematics.

The real story behind the movie began with an associate of Claude Shannon by the name of Dr. Edward O. Thorp of MIT. In the Early 60’s, Thorp published a landmark mathematical treatise on how to beat casinos. His research was so successful that Las Vegas casinos shut down many of their card tables for an entire year until they could devise counter measures to impede Thorp’s mathematics.

Thorp is arguably the greatest gambler of all time. He extended his gambling science to the stock market and made a fortune. His net worth is in the fractional to low billions. He is credited with some independent discoveries which were the foundation to the Black-Scholes-Merton equation relating heat transfer thermodynamics to stock option pricing. The equation won the Nobel prize and was the subject of the documentary: The Trillion Dollar Bet.

Thorp would probably be even richer today if Rudy Gulliani had not falsely implicated him in the racketeering scandal involving Michael Milken. Thorp, by the way, keeps a dartboard with Gulliani’s picture on it… 🙂

The relevance of Thorp’s math to Darwinism is that Thorp was a pioneer of risk management (which he used to create the world’s first hedge fund). In managing a hedge fund or managing the wagers in casinos, one is confronted with the mathematically defined problem of Gambler’s Ruin. The science of risk management allows a risk manager or a skilled gambler to defend against the perils gamblers ruin. Unfortunately for Darwinism, natural selection has little defense against the perils of gambler’s ruin.

Even if an individual has a statistical advantage over a casino game, it is possible the individual can lose. Let’s say a skilled player has a 1% advantage on average over the casino. He wanders into the casino, looks for a favorable opportunity and wagers $500,000.00.

If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. Even though he has a slight edge, he still has a very substantial chance of losing. It would be unwise to bet $500,000.00 if that is his life savings!

The movie “21” romanticized the advantage skilled players have. The movie “21” portrayed the MIT students as people who could sit at card tables and bilk casinos like ATM machines. That’s not how it works as testified by one of the more noteworthy members of the real MIT team by the name of Andy Bloch. Bloch reported that during his tenure as manager of the MIT team, the team was once in the red for 9 months before recovering. Skilled players lose big bets not quite 50% of the time. It is not unusual, on average, to have a losing streak of 8 hands in a row every 256 rounds. Ben Mezrich reported in his book, Bringing Down the House, an incident where the Big Player of the MIT team lost 3 hands in a row in 45 seconds of play for a sum total of $120,000.00! It happens…

A skilled player with a 1% advantage might expect to play 50,000 hands before his expected value exceeds the effect of one standard deviation of bad luck. That means he might have to play a looooong time before he realizes a profit….

What does this have to do with Darwinism? Darwin argued that

Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps.”

But that is complete nonsense mathematically speaking because of the problem of gambler’s ruin. It is not surprising that Darwin could not see the flaw in his argument because he could not even do high school algebra even after substantial effort. The lack of basic math and logic pervades his flawed theory.

The problem is that a selectively-advantaged traits are still subject to random events. The most basic random event is with whether a parent will even pass down a gene to a child in the first place! Added to that problem is the nature of random events in general. A genetically advantaged individual may die by accident, get consumed by a predator, etc.

And the problem gets worse. Even if selectively advantage traits get spread to a small percentage of the population, it still has a strong chance of being wiped out by the sum total of random events. The mathematics of gambler’s ruin helped clarify the effect of random “selection” on natural selection.

Without going into details, I’ll quote the experts who investigated the issues. Consider the probability a selectively advantaged trait will survive in a population a mere 7 generations after it emerges:

if a mutant gene is selectively neutral the probability is 0.79 that it will be lost from the population
….
if the mutant gene has a selective advantage of 1%, the probability of loss during the fist seven generations is 0.78. As compared with the neutral mutant, this probability of extinction [with natural selection] is less by only .01 [compared to extinction by purely random events].
….

Theoretical Aspects of Population Genetics
Motoo Kimura and Tomoko Ohta

This means is that natural selection is only slightly better than random chance. Darwin was absolutely wrong to suggest that the emergence of a novel trait will be preserved in most cases. It will not! Except for extreme selection pressures (like antibiotic resistance, pesticide resistance, anti-malaria drug resistance), selection fails to make much of an impact.

The contrast between a skilled gambler and natural selection is that a skilled player can wager small fractions of the money he sets aside for his trade. If a skilled gambler has $50,000, he might wager $100 at a time until the law of large numbers causes his statistical advantage to be asserted. He can attempt many many trials until his advantage eventually prevails. In this manner a skilled gambler can protect himself against the mathematics of gamblers ruin.

But natural selection is a blind watchmaker. It does not know how to perform risk management like a skilled player or the great math wizard, Edward Thorp. For natural selection to succeed in the way Thorp succeeded in the great casinos of Nevada and Wall Street, it has to hope the same mutant appears spontaneously many many times in many individuals. But for complex genes, this doesn’t happen. Truly novel and beneficial mutations are rare. They don’t repeat themselves very often, and when they arise, they will likely be wiped out unless there is fairly intense selection pressure (like we see in pesticide resistance or anti-biotic resistance or anti-malaria drug resistance, or malaria resistance associated with sickle cell anemia).

A further constraint on selective advantage of a given trait is the problem of selection interference and dilution of selective advantage if numerous traits are involved. If one has a population of 1000 individuals and each has a unique, novel, selectively-advantaged trait that emerged via mutation, one can see this leads to an impasse –selection can’t possibly work in such a situation since all the individuals effectively cancel out each other’s selective advantage.

This illustrates that there has to be a limit to the number of innovations appearing in a population simultaneously for selection to work. The emergence of advantageous mutations in a population has the net effect of diluting the selective advantage of all the traits.

If trait A has a large selective advantage in relation to trait B, trait A dilutes the selective advantage of trait B. Thus trait B is exposed more and more to gambler’s ruin because of the existence of trait A. For example an individual with better eyesight (trait A) might prevail over an individual with higher intelligence (trait B). An otherwise good trait (intelligence) is lost because another trait (good eyesight) interferes with the ability of that trait (intelligence) to be maintained…

Thus one can see the problem of many “slight advantageous traits” being necessarily “slight” because of the problem of interference. But “slight” implies they are subject to gambler’s ruin, and thus unlikely to be preserved as Darwin asserted. Thus Darwin was dead wrong….

John Sanford gives a more rigorous treatment in his book Genetic Entropy where he gives more exact numbers on the limits of selective advantage based on problems such as interference. Sanford shows that a 1% selective advantage is fairly generous, and is usually less than 1%. [I emphasize the word “usually”].

Most ironic is that Fisher’s analysis of the effect of gambler’s ruin essentially trashes his own theorem, Fisher’s Fundamental Theorem of Natural Selection. Fisher’s Malthusian notions of “fitness” in his fundamental theorem do not account for the effect of random events taking out selectively advantaged traits. The fundamental theorem assumes evolution is noise free with respect to fitness, that advantageous traits always result in more offspring. We know empirically and theoretically this cannot possibly be true even on the approximate model of Mendelian inheritance.

For reasons such as those I laid out, many believe molecular evolution had to be mostly invisible to selection. Attributing even 5% of molecular evolution to Darwinism would be extremely generous. See: Kimura’s Neutral Theory.

Kimura gave an obligatory salute to Darwin by claiming adaptational features (like morphology) are exempt from his math. I’ve seen nothing supporting Kimura’s obligatory salute to Darwin. It seems his neutralist ideas apply quite well to realms beyond the molecular. NAS member Masotoshi Nei has finally been bold enough to assert most everything else about evolution, not just molecular evolution, is under much less selection pressure than previously assumed. I think Nei is right.

Yesterday afternoon I showed Kimura’s books to an ID-friendly senior in biology. His jaw dropped. He had studied molecular genetics, but our conversation yesterday helped him make the connections he had not made before. The math clearly indicates Darwin couldn’t possibly be right, and by way of extension, neither can Richard Dawkins.

These fairly obvious considerations were not lost upon Michael Lynch:

the uncritical acceptance of natural selection as an explanatory force for all aspects of biodiversity (without any direct evidence) is not much different than invoking an intelligent designer

Michael Lynch
The Origins of Genome Architecture, p 368

Notes:

1. I created a Microsoft Excel Spreadsheet is provided for illustration of these concepts. I used a random number generator to simulate the progress of 10 equally skilled gamblers in a casino. Press the “F9” to redraw the graph. One can see that even “selectively” advantaged individuals can lose. The important thing to grasp is that “slight selective” advantages do not look very different from random walks except in the long run. The problem for natural selection in the wild is that there usually is no “long run” for a newly emerged trait if it suffers from gamblers ruin. The “long run” exists for skilled and intelligent risk managers like Edward Thorp, it does not exist, statistically speaking, for most selectively advantageous traits.

A copy of my spreadsheet can be accessed here.

Sometimes pressing “F9” will cause most of the gamblers to win, and other time it will cause most of them to lose. This underscores the strong effect of random events even when one possess an inherent statistical advantage such as a gambling skill or a selectively advantaged trait.

2. Here is a nice pic of Bill with a standard casino die.

In the 1970’s, casinos had to redesign their craps tables in order to foil skilled dice throwers who exploited slightly non-random behaviors of dice. Las Vegas laws were passed that prevented skilled players from using there specially designed tosses which would exhibit non-random, statistically advantageous behavior.

Some people still claim to be able to influence dice so as to create non-random outcomes in a legal way. However, even skilled crap shooters need principles of risk management and precautions against gambler’s ruin to succeed.

[UPDATE:

1. 5/5/08 World Renowned Geneticist Joe Felsenstein responds to my essay here: Gambler’s Ruin is Darwin’s Gain.

2. 5/5/08 HT: ICON-RIDS:

Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good.

C.DARWIN sixth edition Origin of Species — Ch#4 Natural Selection

This is an even better quote showing how wrong Darwin was in light of these discussions.

See: this comment

3. Thanks to pantrog of PT for his editorial correction about sickle cell anemia. That was my editorial mistake not seeing it in the first place. My error was pointed out here here.

4. 5/8/08 One could easily modify the spreadsheet to stop progress when zero is hit, except if I did this, one would not easily see all the lines since most of them abort early thus giving a misleading impression of large scale progress. See this comment:
Comment about Spreadsheet

5. I wrote: If he has a 1% statistical advantage, that means he has a 50.5% chance of winning and a 49.5% chance of losing. To clarify, the outcomes are complicated by double-downs, splits, and blackjacks, etc. so the notion of “win” in this thread is effective average win over time per round….I didn’t want to get into these deep specifics earlier as it was peripheral to the thread…

6. 5/31/08 In response to various comments by those at UD and PandasThumb, I created another spreadsheet with some improvements. See the improvements at: ruin_olegt_mod1.xls. The princple changes were in response to suggestions by a very fine physicist by the name of Olegt who sometimes posts at TelicThoughts and PT. The new simulation has more rounds and actually prevents a player from playing once he is ruined.

]

Comments
UNGTSS, So what did you think of your experience debating with the Pandas? Salscordova
May 6, 2008
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Hi Mike1962, I gave a partial answer to ScienceAvenger. here He resorted to misreading what I wrote. When someone does that, I don't invest much time even if he had points worth discussing. However, let me know if you have specific concerns you'd like me to address.... If you want me to respond to the whole thing, well...I can do it in pieces. Sal PS I'm probably more knowledgeable than he gives me credit for. I can tell that from what little I read...scordova
May 6, 2008
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scordova, What do you think about this rebuttal? http://scienceavenger.blogspot.com/2008/05/evolution-21-gamblers-ruin-and-zero-sum.htmlmike1962
May 6, 2008
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Junk, Bob OH is a professional population geneticist. Perhaps he can answer your questions. Salscordova
May 6, 2008
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"When selection acts on different mutations independently, this implies to [sic] high a mutation load" Not clear why seperate mutations would have to be acted upon independently. If its a phenotype that's rejected wouldn't the associated genes (plural) decrease in frequency.JunkyardTornado
May 6, 2008
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Sal: an average individual carries ? 100 lethal equivalents. Some data suggest that a substantial fraction of nucleotides typical to a species may, indeed, be suboptimal... So, if I'm reading the abstract (which is all that's available) correctly, it is known fact that neutral mutations are accumulating in a typical species to such a great extent that a lot of harmful configurations of this introduced genetic material has occurred, and yet it is also known that somehow these suboptional configurations are being dealt with (by some unknown mechanism?). So if they're being dealt with - its not by miraculous intervention presumably. Or maybe you're saying the rate of harmful accumulation is such that, if biology had been around for longer than a few thousand years it would already be exterminated completely. Just a question as a layman, do you reject that many innovations have been observed to occur via natural selection among microorganisms. IOW, while understanding that the numbers may not add up for RM-NS among large land mammals, are you saying it also does not occur among microorganisms either. And where I'm getting at (also as a layman) is what if the vast majority of (RM-NS) innovations occurred eons ago when all that existed were microorganisms, and innovations we see on a macro-scale now where actually developed in that primitive environment and have only been transmitted or mapped to a different scale.JunkyardTornado
May 6, 2008
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Bob OH wrote: Eh? Can you explain, please. You can’t be assuming that everything else is equal.
Of course not. Kondrashov makes the point better than I why have we not died 100 times over?
It is well known that when s, the selection coefficient against a deleterious mutation, is below ? 1/4Ne, where Ne is the effective population size, the expected frequency of this mutation is ? 0.5, if forward and backward mutation rates are similar. Thus, if the genome size, G, in nucleotides substantially exceeds the Ne of the whole species, there is a dangerous range of selection coefficients .… Mutations with s within this range are neutral enough to accumulate almost freely, but are still deleterious enough to make an impact at the level of the whole genome. In many vertebrates Ne ? 104, whileG ? 109, so that the dangerous range includes more than four orders of magnitude. If substitutions at 10% of all nucleotide sites have selection coefficients within this range with the mean 10?6, an average individual carries ? 100 lethal equivalents. Some data suggest that a substantial fraction of nucleotides typical to a species may, indeed, be suboptimal. When selection acts on different mutations independently, this implies to high a mutation load. This paradox cannot be resolved by invoking beneficial mutations or environmental fluctuations.
I don't think Kondrashov's soft selection solution or "synergistic epistasis" is the answer, but I would welcome hearing the other side. PS By the way, if you'd like Bob OH, I'd be happy to mail you Genetic Entropy as my personal thanks for your participation here at UD.scordova
May 6, 2008
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Jerry, I can see by your post that I missed what you were getting at; now I get it, so thanks for your reply. For Junkyard Tornado: the hypothetical that "with unlimited time nature is like a bettor with unlimited resources" is irrelevant because we are not concerned with whether it would be hypothetical possible or inevitable to arrive at a certain level of development and complexity of life. The problem is that nature has not had unlimited resources to get to this point. So how did it get here? You rightly note that there could be other factors or operations at work than genetic mutation. However, you are wrongly unidirectional in stating that ID proponents cut off scientific inquiry by positing ID to be a mysterious black box that provides the necessary mechanism to get us to this point of development in just a billion years or so. The argument also cuts the otherway,in that you cut off research into ID by assuming (on faith) that scientists will be able to find (so far missing) materialist mechanisms to over come the indequacies of current (materialist) evolution. Given that, historically, belief in a designer God did not impede the advance of science, it would seem that ID merely opens an additional avenue of investigation (i.e., the possibility of design) without inherently closing off investigation into material causes. At least I'm not aware of anyone significant in the ID camp that says "ID is the solution for all gaps, so stop looking for any other solution". In fact, it was the scientists who did NOT believe in God who effectively delayed and hindered research into "junk DNA" because of the evolutionary explanation for it--which has now been found to be wrong, and in fact there is likely only trivial amounts of junk DNA.jct
May 6, 2008
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But deleterious mutations can be fixed as well and at a higher rate than beneficial mutations.
Eh? Can you explain, please. You can't be assuming that everything else is equal.Bob O'H
May 6, 2008
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scordova, what is the process that causes deleterious mutations to become fixed? The whole point is that deleterious mutations will confer a disadvantage on organisms that makes it less likely they will pass on the mutation, whereas the converse is true for advantageous mutations. Random effects, being random, will tend to affect all mutations. You claim that random effects can cause deleterious mutations to go to fixation. How so? The point is that they are deleterious, so they act to the disadvantage of the organism. That disadvantage will still hinder the transmission of the mutation to later generations, regardless of the random effect (unless the random effect was so extreme as to render what was a deleterious mutation into and advantageous mutation). And Darwin wasn't wrong about about "the efficacy of “natural selecton” to bring about positive change." Where he was wrong was claiming that all advantageous variations would be selected - which as I pointed out earlier is something of a nitpick.Clarence
May 6, 2008
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Sal: I do thank you for taking the time to write this article. I am not a "Darwinist" either and my own views are much more nuanced than can be fully elaborated in this thread. I would look into that book you mentioned, but since gambling is probably a sin I couldn't make use of it.JunkyardTornado
May 6, 2008
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jct wrote: "Third, and this is in response to 90 & 92, there has not been an unlimited supply of time or funds. We have a discrete maximum age for the universe and the earth. And we have a discrete and calculable number of cell reproduction events since the earth has existed (let’s ignore the fact that life has to appear first before it can evolve as life). Therefore, when looking at the current state of complexity of life we are dealing with a set number of hands of cards played since life began. (BTW in 92 I was responding to Jerry's post, not my own - an additional message was inserted in the thread making it appear I was commending my own post.) I do recognize the earth has a lifespan: Me: "But nature would be like a kasino or gambbler with UNLIMITED funds and this point was never brought out. If a mutation is a bett, (and that’s the analogy that Sal was using) then nature can make betts continuously until the end of the world and never run out of monney. " Imagine a gambbler with a 51% edge, unlimited funds and at the very least several thousand years to make betts. That is the picture I was looking for. Of course natural selection doesn't have a 51% edge, but it does have unlimited funds and millions of years to some. Remember, the bettting analogy for mutations was Sal's. Can nature keep producing mutations for as long as it exists? That means it has unlimited funds. Will beneficial mutations continue to occur at a certain rate? Yes. Let me emphasize that I am in full agreement with Jerry that most of the variation is coming from continual reshuffling, rather than mutations. If a lot of new new random data is continually thrown into the mix in the form of nuetral or not-too-harmful "mutations" there's more stuff to reshuffle. I'm thinking a lot of raw random data was dumped into the system at the very start of the biological process on the planet - with random organic material being disgorged in great quantities from the center of the earth (speculation and I don't know where I read that first.) But suppose we can examine the mechanism as currently proposed and say, "Wait a minute - there's not enough here to account for what we're seeing." What is ID's response: "This proves this magical design-making black-box is responsible". (Remember that intelligence for ID is defined as whatever is not randomness and mechanism. If it ain't mechanism it can't be examined.) Science would say, "well it just proves there are other mechanisms at play we haven't discovered." But ID would just shake its head with a sad smile, with pity for pathetic science in its futile search for mechanisms, blind to the obvious necessity of ID's inscrutable magical black box. In response to Sal regarding kasinos - I don't know how the edge is implemented for every single game. But just take roulette - that's a HUGE percentage of kasino revenue. And how is the edge implemented there - By 0 and 00 on the wheel, so when the ball lands there everyone loses but the kasino. Do you think it requires a book to explain how that works? Sure, the kasino has to watch for some wise guys casing the wheel and break a few hands occasionally, but is it a concern with 98% of the betttors? No.JunkyardTornado
May 6, 2008
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It seems to me the major point is that beneficial variations can be fixed and that Felsenstein’s post on PT indicates why.
But deleterious mutations can be fixed as well and at a higher rate than beneficial mutations. I partially demonstrated that Darwin's conception of inevitable progress was suspect at best. A more comprehensive dismantling of Darwinism is in John Sanford's book. My lengthy post and discussion here is only a partial attack on Darwin's flawed theory. Dr. Felsenstein does not properly account for the effect of the fixation of deleterious mutations that have a low selection value. Random effects can cause selectively advantaged traits to go extinct and they can also cause deleterious mutation to go to fixation. I covered only random effects causing selectively advantage traits to go extinct... In anycase, even conceding that my essay might be revised to make it less vulnerable to Dr. Felsenstein's critique, Darwin was fundamentally wrong about the efficacy of "natural selecton" to bring about positive change. Dennett's algorithm that supposedly argues the correctness of Darwinism -- Dennett's algorithm is an idealization that is not in line with biological reality.scordova
May 6, 2008
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I fail to see why Darwin being wrong (in that not ALL good variations are preserved) was the "major point". Darwin was wrong on many points. But that is only to be expected given the state of knowledge in the 19th century and the fact he couldn't even have been aware of genes and the actual mechanisms by which variation is transmitted. That is, frankly, nitpicking. It seems to me the major point is that beneficial variations can be fixed and that Felsenstein's post on PT indicates why. Claiming that the major point is that not all of them do is a distraction and suggests you are conceding the real major point to Felsenstein.Clarence
May 6, 2008
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But nature can keep making advantageous mutations at a certain rrate over and over again and never run out of monney
Not if the mutation is sufficiently rare. Behe pointed out the required multi-mutation for a two-binding site evolution would be exceptionally rare, perhaps exceeding all the number of humans that ever lived. The scenario will also fail if the species go extinct because of genetic entropy or random events. So nature will run out of chances on that account as well.... In any case, the major point was Darwin was wrong:
Natural Selection is daily and hourly scrutinising, throughout the world, the slightest variations; rejecting those that are bad, preserving and adding up all that are good.
I'm glad Joe Felesenstein weighed in on the discussion and introduced the Robertson-Hill paper. Sanford sketched out the problem of how many nucleotide positions Natural Selection can monitor simultaneously, and it isn't much. Robertson-Hill seems marginally related to Sanford's claims, but I don't know. Sanford places the figure at 700 nucleotides that can be successfully monitored by natural selection, and that's pretty small for something as large as the human genome with 4,000,000,000 base pairs. The 700 nucleotides are assuming adequate resources are available. If adequate population resources are not available, then genetic entropy results.scordova
May 5, 2008
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jct Depends on how much stuff there is to shuffle. Chromosomal reorganizations, by the way, result in drastic changes in ability to produce fertile hybrids. Who know what else can be done with radical changes in DNA architecture like that. Position effect in the chromosomes might very well be a saltational mechanism. Read the sidebar articles under John A. Davison.DaveScot
May 5, 2008
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Sal: Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for you) you picked a topic filled with gambbling terms which can't be used in responses (except by the elite at UD), thus preventing rebuttal. Thus I am unable to fully respond to your insult of my gambbling knowledge. Here's a link on "The House Edge". It says that everything but blackkjack and video pokker have a fixed edge for the kasino. Wow, I can't even give the link because it has Kasino in the title. Once again though, it seems you've ignored my main point (here it is again): JT: "If a mutation is a bett, (and that’s the analogy that Sal was using) then nature can make betts continuously until the end of the world and never run out of monney. I understand perfectly well that for any single mutation, that the gambbler’s dilemma applies, as even nature can't keep making a bett of that specific mutation over and over again. But nature can keep making advantageous mutations at a certain rrate over and over again and never run out of monney" And as I stated, I had been trying to ascertain the significance of that. It seems like you would have at least pointed it out in your original post, (an ostensibly thorough overview of the bettting analogy as it applied to natural selection).JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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Bob O'H, I think the modern synthesis was first developed in the late 1930's or early 1940's.jerry
May 5, 2008
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From Wiki:
This synthesis was produced over a period of about a decade (1936–1947)
Watson-Crick 1953 here. I actually was too generous to say modern synthesis originated around the time Watson-Crick. This strengthens my original claim that Haldane and Fisher did not have access to the modern understanding of the molecular basis of heredity at the time modern-synthesis was conceived. Thank you Bob OH for strengthening my point that neo-Darwinism originated in ignorance of the molecular basis of heredity....scordova
May 5, 2008
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jct, What is classified as a species is very problematic. Wolves and dogs are considered different species but can breed so are essentially one species. Most wild cats can inter breed such as a tiger and a lion, so they are also one species but functionally classified as different species. American buffalo or bisons can breed with cows so they are one species even though each is identified as a different species. The examples go on and on. Now I know nothing about beetles and you bring up some interesting cases. But your exceptions do not negate that most beetle species may be like wolves and dogs or if they cannot inter breed are almost identical genetically. Some birds are almost identical genetically except they have different song patterns. I am not trying to undermine your examples because as I said I know little about beetles. The lethal poisons and explosive gases seem unique but dependence on radically food stuffs could actually be a behavioral trait that is easily explained or maybe not. Eventually we will learn the genetic basis for the traits you mention. That is where a lot of research is leading. We are also only at the tip of the iceberg on a lot of things. For example, each cell type has exactly the same type DNA so why the different cell types. It appears the difference is in which genes get expressed and this study is at its infancy. Also some capabilities are unexpressed in the genome but are there. Why? Again this is in its infancy. The point I am trying to make is that the reshuffling produces unique characteristics each time and some of them might lead to small changes that prevent inter breeding and a new species originates. Then there is the morphologically different variants that are the same species; e.g all the types of dogs we see and such things as lions and tigers in nature. Now examples like the giraffe, bats and your beetles with self defense mechanisms seem to defy the ability of natural selection to produce. I never said that natural selection was responsible for everything but a very large percentage of species probably owe their existence to naturalistic causes which includes natural selection. The point I am making is that it is fruitless to argue against natural selection, but also recognize that even if one accepts it as real, it is very limited in terms of producing new capabilities. Someday we will be able to know how much of the genome is really different between things like a humming bird and a penguin and know how much had to change to get one versus the other and how much was outside the possibility of naturalistic changes. Thanks for the examples.jerry
May 5, 2008
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Sal, I'm surprised at your ignorance of the history of science:
Watson-Crick’s discoveries happened around the time of the origination of the Modern Synthesis, ...
Fisher published his first big paper on the subject in 1918. Wright started a couple of years later, but his first main papers were published in the first half of the 1920s. Crick was born in 1916, and Watson in 1928. Watson must be the world's greatest genius if he did his big work before he was even conceived!Bob O'H
May 5, 2008
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re 91: I'm not convinced. First, the only genes being shuffled are for ones that are variations on existing traits: eye colour, hair colour, limb length, amount of fatty tissue, etc. We do not by reshuffling get new traits, such as additional functional limbs, antennae in addition to eyes, the ability to spit poison, the ability to fart explosive gas. So, for beetles, how does shuffling alleles lead to beetles that produce lethal poison, explosive gases, dependencies on radically different food stuffs, etc. It's not by shuffling. Second, you assume a too large a jump when you assume that the shuffling produces a new trait that makes the carrier and expressor of that trait a new species. I'm not aware of any shuffling or mutation that even after several shuffles or mutations is significant enough to create a new species. The changes are so marginally small (else they can neither arise nor be passed on) that they are overwhelmed by other, random factors (e.g., the new bug gets stepped on by an apatosaurus). Third, and this is in response to 90 & 92, there has not been an unlimited supply of time or funds. We have a discrete maximum age for the universe and the earth. And we have a discrete and calculable number of cell reproduction events since the earth has existed (let's ignore the fact that life has to appear first before it can evolve as life). Therefore, when looking at the current state of complexity of life we are dealing with a set number of hands of cards played since life began. Have I correctly understood the problems with the reasoning of JunkyardTornado and Jerry? regards, jctjct
May 5, 2008
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My point regarding the house edge which I don’t think was ever understood: First of all, you have to consider the kasino’s standard way of earning billions is just the house edge and nothing more. Its nothing brilliant or surreptitious like the strategems described in the article, employed by gambblers trying to “bbeat the house”.
JT, Do you understand the techniques used by the MIT Team? If not, you are demonstrating a serious misunderstanding of what I wrote and who Edward Thorp is.... You would do well to read up on Dr. Throp and his work on Casino games. Do understand the difference between games with and without conditional independence? If you are playing a single deck "21" game, tell me what the house edge is if the dealer has dealt out the following cards to 1 player sitting at his table and himself. to player: 6,4,8 to himself: 6,5,3,2,7 Give me an estimate of the house edge on the next round. Answer: House edge is around -2.7% and player advantage is conversely around +2.7%. The reason the house edge is negative is that the properties of the cards remaining in the deck have been partially revealed. It is now rich in 10's and Aces: a condition which favors the player. Given that situation, the player would do well to raise his bet substantially. I'm afraid you don't understand what you are talking about. Sorry... Salvador PS The player would do well statistically to raise his bet regularly in such cases, however, the casinos frown on such practices since it affects their bottom line. Such players can expect to be shown the door...scordova
May 5, 2008
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90 - Well stated.JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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There is one big misconception going on here. Most of the time natural selection is not operating on beneficial mutations or any changes to the gene pool but will produce new species from within the current gene pool. Everybody assumes natural selection works before they denounce it since they constantly talk about how deleterious mutations get weeded out. Folks, that is natural selection at work. But that is only a small thing that is going on. Natural selection shuffles the current elements of the genome in the gametes during sexual reproduction and the offspring have an entirely different set of genes and other elements than their parents. Some of these combinations may be more advantageous than what others are born with based on the current environment and they will probably go on to produce more offspring accordingly. How hard is this to understand. No new novel genes or genetic elements but a difference in the offspring based on the reshuffling. Just look at the people around you to see the differences in the gene pool and these are only surface differences. If a challenging environment comes up then those with the best genetic basis will survive the most often. Just what it is will be hard to predetermine but while some of it may be luck, most of the time it will not. Thus certain combinations of genetic elements get passed on. This is a no brainer and arguing against it will get no where. When a sub population gets isolated it may develop a gene pool through natural selection that may not let its members mate with the original population and voila we have a new species. The genomic differences could be small but we have a new species. And lo and be hold , we have 300,000 species of beetles. So arguing against natural selection is like banging your head against a wall. Now looking at natural selection and trying to figure how quickly a new feature can penetrate a gene pool is fair game but it has nothing to do with how most species come about because most new species are not the result of mutations.jerry
May 5, 2008
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My point regarding the house edge which I don't think was ever understood: First of all, you have to consider the kasino's standard way of earning billions is just the house edge and nothing more. Its nothing brilliant or surreptitious like the strategems described in the article, employed by gambblers trying to "bbeat the house". Since it already is the house a kasino just has to put a simple straightforward edge for itself into every game, a 0 and 00 on a roulette wheel for example, as well as built in advantages into everything else - the line on sportts bettting, and so on. Then they just sit back and passively wait for the money to roll in (so to speak). I guess the point is, its not a function of intelligent design as such, which is what I think was implied more than once in the opening article. Its just a built in in edge and enough money to back it up. (OK thats my understanding anyway). But nature would be like a kasino or gambbler with UNLIMITED funds and this point was never brought out. If a mutation is a bett, (and that's the analogy that Sal was using) then nature can make betts continuously until the end of the world and never run out of monney. I understand perfectly well that for any single mutation, that the gambbler's dillema applies, as even nature can't keep making a bett of that specific mutation over and over again. But nature can keep making advantageous mutations at a certain rrate over and over again and never run out of monney, and I was trying to figure out if that possibly implied that ultimately only advantageous mutations would exist. I'm not sure it does now, but to reiterate, nature is like a gambbler with unlimited ffunds that can keep making betts forever and never run out of monney, and for some reason this obvious analogy was never noted.JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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bornagain77: Thanks for the citation from Bill Gates. Your post #35 was an interesting read. Thanks again.vjtorley
May 5, 2008
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Is there a reason why the following post of mine is being rejected?JunkyardTornado
May 5, 2008
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I encourage the pro-ID readers to be gracious to Dr. Felsenstein. He has honored me and Uncommon Descent by even taking time to respond. Sal you're right, but let's take into account that the main reason Dr. F. did spend his time to argue against your (pretty evident) claims semmes not at all related to some sort of kindness, but it's more plausibly related to the fact that you did hit the nail on the head ... He may disagree with me, but I am grateful he is engaging us in dialogue. Surely it's better than the behavior of some well-known D. bulldogs .-)kairos
May 5, 2008
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I encourage the pro-ID readers to be gracious to Dr. Felsenstein. He has honored me and Uncommon Descent by even taking time to respond. He may disagree with me, but I am grateful he is engaging us in dialogue.scordova
May 5, 2008
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