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Real Time Evolution “Happening Under Our Nose”

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Darwinism
Evolution
Genetics
Natural selection
speciation
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A couple of weeks ago a friend forwarded me a link to this recent article about “ongoing research to record the interaction of environment and evolution” by University of California, Riverside biologist David Reznick. Reznick’s team has been studying adaptive changes in guppies. Reznick’s work focuses on tracking what happens in real-world situations in the wild, rather than the somewhat artificial environments in the lab. As a result, Reznick has gathered some of the more trustworthy and definitive data about changes over time in a real-world environment, largely free from the intervention and interference of the coated lab worker.

The article states:

The new work is part of research that Reznick has been doing since 1978. It involved transplanting guppies from a river with a diverse community of predators into a river with no predators – except for one other fish species, an occasional predator – to record how the guppies would evolve and how they might impact their environment.

In the recent follow-up research, Reznick’s team studied “how male color pattern affected” their differential survival in the environment. Significantly, the team even gathered DNA from the guppies over time to track who their parents were and reconstruct a guppie pedigree to help determine the reproductive success. Without going into all the details, which are interesting in their own right, the key point for my purposes today is that this adaptive change occurred extremely quickly.

Graduate student, Swanne Gordon, noted,

Our research shows that these fish adapted to their new habitats in less than one year, or three to four generations, which is even faster than we previously thought.

Reznick adds,

People think of evolution as historical. They don’t think of it as something that’s happening under our nose. It is a contemporary process. People are skeptical; they don’t believe in evolution because they can’t see it. Here, we see it. We can see if something makes you better able to make babies and live longer.

What Really Happened?

Now normally when my friend forwards a link, I will just review the article, realize it is making claims beyond the data, and move on. But coincidentally, just days earlier I had been reading Chapter 7 of Lee Spetner’s 1998 book, Not by Chance!

Part of Spetner’s argument is that many adaptive changes we see in nature are in fact not examples of a Darwinian process of chance changes + natural selection, but instead the result of specific programming capabilities in the organism to allow it to respond to changes in the environment. Indeed, what caught my eye about the article my friend forwarded is that Spetner had discussed Reznick’s earlier experiments in that very context.

After describing two different predators of the guppies: (i) the cichlid, which prey on large mature guppies; and (ii) the killfish, which prey on small immature guppies, Spetner continues:

Reznick and his team took 200 guppies from the Aripo [river in Trinidad] and put them in a tributary of the river that is home to the killfish but has no cichlids and had no guppies. Changes soon appeared in the newly introduced guppies. The fish population soon changed to what would normally be found in the presence of the killfish, and Reznick found the changes to be heritable.

The full change in the guppy population was observed as soon as the first samples were drawn, which was after only two years. One trait studied, the age of males at maturity, achieved its terminal value in only four years. The evolutionary rate calculated from this observation is some ten million times the rate of evolution induced from observations of the fossil record [Reznick et al. 1997].

Reznick interpreted these changes as the result of natural selection acting on variation already in the population. Could natural selection have acted so fast as to change the entire population in only two years?

Spetner goes on to argue that the adaptive change observed in the guppies is more likely the result of a programmed response to environmental change, and provides several examples of such changes in other species.

Where is the Darwinian Evolution?

Darwinian evolution, as we know, is supposed to work by natural selection weeding out random variation. The Neo-Darwinian model has traditionally gone a step further, suggesting that those random variations are genetic in nature — taking place in the DNA as a copying error here, a misplaced sequence there, an accidental cut-and-paste elsewhere . . .

So the question arises: do the kinds of rapid, adaptive, reversible changes Reznick observed owe their existence to this kind of Darwinian process, or are they the result of a pre-programmed genetic response to environmental changes?

Spetner makes a good argument that we are observing the latter. He goes on to show that even many of the classical examples of Darwinian evolution — you know, the examples of random mutation + natural selection that even most evolutionary skeptics have tended to accept: convergent “evolution” of plants in similar environments, the “evolution” of bacteria to live on lactose or salicin — are not good examples of Darwinian evolution at all. Even that icon of icons, finch beaks in the Galapagos, is likely not a good example of the alleged Neo-Darwinian mechanism of random mutation + natural selection.

All of this prompts me to ask a simple, but pointed, question:

How many good examples are there of Darwinian evolution?

The more research I do the more I come to the same conclusion Spetner did, namely that most adaptive changes are not the result of the random, purposeless changes Darwinian evolution posits as the engine of biological novelty.

Even skeptics of the grand evolutionary claims tend to accept, either specifically or implicitly, that Darwinian evolution can produce all kinds of minor adaptive changes, the so-called microevolutionary changes: variations in finch beaks, insect resistance to insecticides, coloration of peppered moths, and so on. And indeed, the “selection” side of the formula seems to work well, which is simply the somewhat pedestrian observation that if an organism is poorly adapted to its environment it has a poor chance of surviving.

Yet the engine of the novelty, the alleged random variation that is supposed to provide all this adaptive variability on which selection can work its magic, seems stubbornly absent. Even these most common of examples, on closer inspection, do not support the Darwinian claim. Thus the doubts multiply. If Darwinian evolution cannot even claim explanatory credit for things like bacteria being able to metabolize lactose, what can it explain? The more closely we look, the more anemic the Darwinian claim becomes.

Now we could be intellectually lazy and call every adaptive change we observe an example of “evolution.” But the problem with observing a change and claiming that we have observed “evolution” is that (i) we rob the word of explanatory value if it is applied indiscriminately, and (ii) we trick ourselves into thinking we have an explanation for what occurred, when in fact we have have no idea what is happening at the molecular level or the organismal level to produce the change. Claiming that we are witnessing “evolution” in such circumstances becomes then not so much an explanation as a confession of ignorance.

Real Darwinian Evolution

There are no doubt quite a number of legitimate, confirmed examples of random mutation + natural selection producing an important biological effect. For example, I think Behe’s review of malaria/sickle cell trait is a legitimate example of Darwinian evolution in action. And the circumstances of that example are rather telling: (a) large population size, (b) meaningful amount of time, (c) very strong selection pressure, (d) and change that can be caused by one or two single-point mutations.

If we see adaptive change outside of these parameters — small population, short timeframe, an adaptation that requires significant genetic change — we might be better served to suspect that we are witnessing a programmed adaptive response, rather than Darwinian evolution. And rather than being naively impressed with the great power of Darwinian evolution to act more rapidly than anticipated, we should be prompted to look deeper to find what is actually taking place.

Your Turn

In addition to the malaria/sickle cell example, what other examples of legitimate, confirmed Darwinian evolution can you think of?

Comments
as to: "As functional proteins can be found by purely random search" actually the ATP binding protein is regarded as a 'man-made' protein that was evolved independent of nature. Moreover, Dr. Hunter comments here on the 'fudged' lower end estimates for functional proteins:
Why Greta Christina’s critique of God-guided evolution misses the mark - August 18, 2014 Excerpt: Keefe and Szostak managed to isolate four ATP binding proteins from a library of 6×10^12 proteins, and concluded that the proportion of all possible protein sequences that are actually functional might be as high as 1 in 10^11, or 1 in 100,000,000,000, and that functional proteins could therefore have arisen by an unguided, stochastic (i.e. random) process. (Their 2001 paper in Nature 410:715-718 can be accessed here.) Another team of scientists (Taylor et al., 98:10596-10601, 2001, doi:10.1073/pnas.191159298) estimated that a random protein library of about 10^24 members would be sufficient for finding one chorismate mutase molecule, making the problem of unguided natural processes hitting upon a functional sequence difficult but by no means impossible (see here for their article). Dr. Cornelius G. Hunter is a graduate of the University of Illinois where he earned a Ph.D. in Biophysics and Computational Biology. In a recent personal communication, Dr. Cornelius Hunter explained to me why these estimates of the probability of finding a functional protein sequence by chance are wildly over-optimistic, and pointed out that a more realistic estimate would be 1 in 10^60, or 1 in 1 million million million million million million million million million million: “First, Keefe and Szostak is not relevant as they were not seeking functional proteins, but merely mild ATP binding. Second, Taylor, et. al. deals with a simple, helix only, protein (homodimeric AroQ), biased the sequence toward helix forming amino acids and sequence patterns, did not fully randomize the sequence but only randomized regions, and is vague about how they arrive at their 10^24 tries required. Even if their calculation of 10^24 is reasonable, you’re dealing with a pretty simple protein… AroQ is toward the simple end of the spectrum… And finally there are several studies on slightly more complex, challenging proteins, all of which come in at around 10^60 – 10^80 attempts required.” Dr. Hunter also poured scorn on the suggestion, voiced by some experts, that the first proteins may have been relatively short, making their emergence by random processes far more likely. He wrote: “Proteins are by no means created equal. They occupy a wide spectrum of size and complexity… Nor is there reason to think that evolution could live with the shorter, simpler ones at first, and then later somehow the larger, more complex ones would evolve. The larger ones appear to be needed, and there are not obvious gradual pathways to forming them.… We’re still not close to the more complex proteins.” https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/why-greta-christinas-critique-of-god-guided-evolution-misses-the-mark/ How Proteins Evolved - Cornelius Hunter - December 2010 Excerpt: Comparing ATP binding with the incredible feats of hemoglobin, for example, is like comparing a tricycle with a jet airplane. And even the one in 10^12 shot, though it pales in comparison to the odds of constructing a more useful protein machine, is no small barrier. If that is what is required to even achieve simple ATP binding, then evolution would need to be incessantly running unsuccessful trials. The machinery to construct, use and benefit from a potential protein product would have to be in place, while failure after failure results. Evolution would make Thomas Edison appear lazy, running millions of trials after millions of trials before finding even the tiniest of function. http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2010/12/how-proteins-evolved.html
Of related note, it is good to realize just how big 10^12 (a trillion) actually is:
"The largest dump truck in the world would have to carry more than nine full loads to move a trillion grains of sand. A regular dump truck will have to make 150 trips." http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2009/02/how-big-is-a-trillion/
Moreover, it is found that Szostak’s 1 in a trillion man-made protein, (i.e. ATP binding), is disruptive when expressed in a cell:
A Man-Made ATP-Binding Protein Evolved Independent of Nature Causes Abnormal Growth in Bacterial Cells - 2009 Excerpt: "Recent advances in de novo protein evolution have made it possible to create synthetic proteins from unbiased libraries that fold into stable tertiary structures with predefined functions. However, it is not known whether such proteins will be functional when expressed inside living cells or how a host organism would respond to an encounter with a non-biological protein. Here, we examine the physiology and morphology of Escherichia coli cells engineered to express a synthetic ATP-binding protein evolved entirely from non-biological origins. We show that this man-made protein disrupts the normal energetic balance of the cell by altering the levels of intracellular ATP. This disruption cascades into a series of events that ultimately limit reproductive competency by inhibiting cell division." http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0007385 Strange Behavior: New Study Exposes Living Cells to Synthetic Protein - Dec. 27, 2012 Excerpt: ,,,"ATP is the energy currency of life," Chaput says. The phosphodiester bonds of ATP contain the energy necessary to drive reactions in living systems, giving up their stored energy when these bonds are chemically cleaved. The depletion of available intracellular ATP by DX binding disrupts normal metabolic activity in the cells, preventing them from dividing, (though they continue to grow).,,, In the current study, E. coli cells exposed to DX transitioned into a filamentous form, which can occur naturally when such cells are subject to conditions of stress. The cells display low metabolic activity and limited cell division, presumably owing to their ATP-starved condition. The study also examined the ability of E. coli to recover following DX exposure. The cells were found to enter a quiescent state known as viable but non-culturable (VBNC), meaning that they survived ATP sequestration and returned to their non-filamentous state after 48 hours, but lost their reproductive capacity. Further, this condition was difficult to reverse and seems to involve a fundamental reprogramming of the cell. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/12/121227143001.htm
More realistic estimates for functional proteins were recently gone over here by Dr. Hunter:
Yockey and a Calculator Versus Evolutionists - Cornelius Hunter PhD - September 25, 2015 Excerpt: In a 1977 paper published in the Journal of Theoretical Biology, Hubert Yockey used information theory to evaluate the likelihood of the evolution of a relatively simple protein.,,, Yockey found that the probability of evolution finding the cytochrome c protein sequence is about one in 10^64. That is a one followed by 64 zeros—an astronomically large number. He concluded in the peer-reviewed paper that the belief that proteins appeared spontaneously “is based on faith.” Indeed, Yockey’s early findings are in line with, though a bit more conservative than, later findings. A 1990 study of a small, simple protein found that 10^63 attempts would be required for evolution to find the protein. A 2004 study found that 10^64 to 10^77 attempts are required, and a 2006 study concluded that 10^70 attempts would be required. These requirements dwarf the resources evolution has at its disposal. Even evolutionists have had to admit that evolution could only have a maximum of 10^43 such experiments. It is important to understand how tiny this number is compared to 10^70. 10^43 is not more than half of 10^70. It is not even close to half. 10^43 is an astronomically tiny sliver of 10^70. Furthermore, the estimate of 10^43 is, itself, entirely unrealistic. For instance, it assumes the entire history of the Earth is available, rather than the limited time window that evolution actually would have had.,,, http://darwins-god.blogspot.com/2015/09/yockey-and-calculator-versus.html
of related note as to just how incredibly 'fine-tuned' proteins are intelligently designed to be:
Quantum criticality in a wide range of important biomolecules Excerpt: “Most of the molecules taking part actively in biochemical processes are tuned exactly to the transition point and are critical conductors,” they say. That’s a discovery that is as important as it is unexpected. “These findings suggest an entirely new and universal mechanism of conductance in biology very different from the one used in electrical circuits.” The permutations of possible energy levels of biomolecules is huge so the possibility of finding even one that is in the quantum critical state by accident is mind-bogglingly small and, to all intents and purposes, impossible.,, of the order of 10^-50 of possible small biomolecules and even less for proteins,”,,, “what exactly is the advantage that criticality confers?” https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv-blog/the-origin-of-life-and-the-hidden-role-of-quantum-criticality-ca4707924552 Quantum coherent-like state observed in a biological protein for the first time - October 13, 2015 Excerpt: If you take certain atoms and make them almost as cold as they possibly can be, the atoms will fuse into a collective low-energy quantum state called a Bose-Einstein condensate. In 1968 physicist Herbert Fröhlich predicted that a similar process at a much higher temperature could concentrate all of the vibrational energy in a biological protein into its lowest-frequency vibrational mode. Now scientists in Sweden and Germany have the first experimental evidence of such so-called Fröhlich condensation (in proteins).,,, The real-world support for Fröhlich's theory (for proteins) took so long to obtain because of the technical challenges of the experiment, Katona said. http://phys.org/news/2015-10-quantum-coherent-like-state-biological-protein.html Proteins ‘ring like bells’ - June 2014 As far back as 1948, Erwin Schrödinger—the inventor of modern quantum mechanics—published the book “What is life?” In it, he suggested that quantum mechanics and coherent ringing might be at the basis of all biochemical reactions. At the time, this idea never found wide acceptance because it was generally assumed that vibrations in protein molecules would be too rapidly damped. Now, scientists at the University of Glasgow have proven he was on the right track after all. Using modern laser spectroscopy, the scientists have been able to measure the vibrational spectrum of the enzyme lysozyme, a protein that fights off bacteria. They discovered that this enzyme rings like a bell with a frequency of a few terahertz or a million-million hertz. Most remarkably, the ringing involves the entire protein, meaning the ringing motion could be responsible for the transfer of energy across proteins. The experiments show that the ringing motion lasts for only a picosecond or one millionth of a millionth of a second. Biochemical reactions take place on a picosecond timescale and,,, (are) optimised enzymes to ring for just the right amount of time. Any shorter, and biochemical reactions would become inefficient as energy is drained from the system too quickly. Any longer and the enzyme would simple oscillate forever: react, unreact, react, unreact, etc. The picosecond ringing time is just perfect for the most efficient reaction. These tiny motions enable proteins to morph quickly so they can readily bind with other molecules, a process that is necessary for life to perform critical biological functions like absorbing oxygen and repairing cells. The findings have been published in Nature Communications. Klaas Wynne, Chair in Chemical Physics at the University of Glasgow said: “This research shows us that proteins have mechanical properties that are highly unexpected and geared towards maximising efficiency. Future work will show whether these mechanical properties can be used to understand the function of complex living systems.” http://www.gla.ac.uk/news/headline_334344_en.html
bornagain
October 15, 2015
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EugeneS: And yet, an average protein domain has a space of size 20^150. The question was whether a computer could represent the computational resources of nature. The answer, then, is no. Hence, to solve even basic problems, programmers often have to take shortcuts. Even protein folding is largely out of reach of computation. Glad we have that settled then. EugeneS: These studies show that solutions corresponding to functioning proteins may be sparsely located in the state space. As for searching protein space, we know that evolution can reduce the search time dramatically, but that it depends on the structure of the search space. As functional proteins can be found by purely random search, that implies that the space is rather dense in proteins. See Keefe & Szostak, Functional proteins from a random-sequence library, Nature 2001.Zachriel
October 15, 2015
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Zachriel, "Don’t worry!" You of course can choose to stay ignorant. "10^47 replications." And yet, an average protein domain has a space of size 20^150. A unicellular organism has to have some 300+ substantially different proteins all functioning in accord, in order to sustain life. There are experimental studies showing that even billions of years are not enough for blind search to produce anything of that complexity. These studies show that solutions corresponding to functioning proteins may be sparsely located in the state space. A solution is typically a point in the state space surrounded by chaos. There can be clusters of solutions but I think that it all depends. These solutions are severely constrained to be functional. Anyone who works in AI will tell you that constraints are harmful to local search, esp. to blind evolutionary search. But that is not the main problem. Stay focused and face the main challenge: life is prescription-based, controlled and organized. In order to even start evolution needs a cell functioning as a heterogeneous whole. The {data+processor} complex that is key to life, is irreducible. It is absolutely causally dependent on intelligence making decisions in the context of planning with foresight. How can a naturally produced system use symbolic representations? There is no other alternative to intelligence. You don't understand the real challenge. Why are things you say so far from reality?EugeneS
October 15, 2015
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Zachriel:
Or computers can be used to model phenomena, such as genetic evolution.
ID is OK with genetic evolution. Computers do not model undirected evolution.
There are approximately 10^30 bacteria on Earth.
And they have always been bacteria. They will never be anything else besides bacteria or dead.Virgil Cain
October 15, 2015
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EugeneS: Computers do not solve problems. Humans do. In particular by writing code. Or computers can be used to model phenomena, such as genetic evolution. EugeneS: The functional complexity of the simplest organism is prohibitively large for blind search to build it from scratch. The simplest extant organisms are the result of billions of years of evolution, not blind search. EugeneS: Nature only had 10^17 seconds at its disposal. Don't worry! Bacteria don't replicate nearly so fast. Assuming replication a hundred times a year over a billion years, that's about 10^11 generations. There are approximately 10^30 bacteria on Earth. Each has a genome of about 10^6 bases. Altogether, we have in the ballpark of 10^47 base replications. Now, which computer were you using that can hold 10^36 bases, and then manipulate them 10^11 times? Can you get it done before lunch?Zachriel
October 15, 2015
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Zachriel, "Computers generally don’t have the resources of nature, so they can’t solve problems of the same scope." Your comments lack specificity. That gives away deficit of real knowledge. Knowledge is always concrete. You seem to appeal to the first principles but even then you systematically fail. Why is that? Why is there such a contrast between what you say and how things really are? Computers do not solve problems. Humans do. In particular by writing code. The functional complexity of the simplest organism is prohibitively large for blind search to build it from scratch. Nature only had 10^17 seconds at its disposal. But even that is not the biggest problem. Life is logic-based, prescription-based with symbolic control being in the center of its organization. Life is not exclusively physicality-based. Life cannot be without intelligent decision making and foresight at the foundation of it. Evolutionists either lie or don't even understand the challenge.EugeneS
October 15, 2015
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WD400: This study doesn’t simply demonstrate that less fit creatures are less likely to survive and reproduce. It also shows this process can generate substantial phenotypic change in a short time. It is unlikely that any of the fish in the ancestral population had as much colouration as the average fish in the evolved population.
WD400, what is your claim exactly? 1) phenotypic change is caused by natural selection. 2) phenotypic change is caused by random mutation. 3) phenotypic change of the overall fish population is caused by natural selection. 4) something else.Box
October 15, 2015
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Andre @157 Yes, it can! Of course! Why not? :)Dionisio
October 15, 2015
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Evolution does happen these days. Here's a strong convincing proof: https://blog.xamarin.com/xamarin-evolve-2016-call-for-participation/ :)Dionisio
October 15, 2015
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Mapou. How can one not laugh? We have heard that NS is sensitive, NS can detect...... Now how is it that our interlocutors can give attributes that belong exclusively to a conscious being to a process that is actually immaterial? But then deny that any such conscious immaterial being can ever exist? It cracks me up!Andre
October 14, 2015
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Andre:
Whahahahahaha!!!!!
I like that bone chilling laugh. You should copyright it. :-D I got one that I use quite often but I admit I borrowed it from someone else. ahahaha...AHAHAHA...ahahaha...Mapou
October 14, 2015
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WD400 Natural selection can detect? Whahahahahaha!!!!! Are you serious?Andre
October 14, 2015
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The bit starting "This study doesn’t simply demonstrate that less fit creatures..." shows that your "translation" is wrong (because it ignores heritability)wd400
October 14, 2015
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WD400, I almost always read your posts — #147 included. If I missed something essential kindly point it out.Box
October 14, 2015
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Natural selection eliminates the less fit. That is all it does. And the less fit changes. And to be qualified as natural selection the genetic changes have to be accidents, errors or mistakes. Natural selection does not apply to directed evolutionVirgil Cain
October 14, 2015
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Here's an idea Box, read the rest of my post.wd400
October 14, 2015
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WD400: Darwinian evolution is selection acting on heritable variants. Guided purposeful evolution as selection acting on heritable variants makes sense. But believing unguided purposeless evolution is acting on heritable variants is nonsense.ppolish
October 14, 2015
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Andre: Darwin Sexual selection falsified! http://phys.org/news/2012-06-ucla-biologists-reveal-potential-fatal.html https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13535-have-peacock-tails-lost-their-sexual-allure/ The first link explores Bateman's Principle, not sexual selection in general. It's been known for some time that Bateman's Principle is overly broad, however, it is largely supported by a number of studies, males having a higher variance in reproductive success in a great number of species. Your second link notes that the result is contradicted by other studies.Zachriel
October 14, 2015
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Darwinian evolution is selection acting on heritable variants.
So it's no longer random mutations anymore? It's heritable variants now? Please use the word random when you speak about Darwinian evolution. Otherwise you are lying and being deceptive again. I say this because the random part, the part that you are trying to hide, is precisely why Darwinian evolution is nothing but chicken feather voodoo science.
Any random search mechanism used to explain evolution is falsified by the combinatorial explosion.
Can you read this? Read it over and over 20 times. Can you really read it? Or are you going to keep babbling about your nonsense?Mapou
October 14, 2015
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WD400: Darwinian evolution is selection acting on heritable variants.
Translation: some organisms don't survive an inhospitable environment while others do and this simple fact somehow amounts to "evolution".
Eric Anderson: No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don’t need any evolutionary theory to point this out.
Box
October 14, 2015
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Andre,
Do you agree that natural selection is sensitive?
Sensitive means, roughly, "able to detect small differences". In the context (large population size) selection is indeed sensitive, even an allele with a very small fitness benefit is quite likely to be fixed.wd400
October 14, 2015
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Darwinian evolution is selection acting on heritable variants. This is an example of that, as are Darwin's finches, peppered moths, sticklebacks and papers in your average issue of American Naturalist, Evolution or Behavioural Ecology. So we certainly have witnessed evolution in action. If you want to also test that mutations are random with respect to fitness you have to do more controlled experiments (why do you think the sickle cell mutations are random, but the guppies could be inducing some unknown / untestable power of adaptive mutation?), but Luria and Delbrück started that work in the 1940s and it goes on to today. This study doesn't simply demonstrate that less fit creatures are less likely to survive and reproduce. It also shows this process can generate substantial phenotypic change in a short time. It is unlikely that any of the fish in the ancestral population had as much colouration as the average fish in the evolved population. So we are left with the "problem" that Reznick said that one reason people are skeptical of evolution is because they can't see evolutionary changes over short time scales. I don't think you can reasonably claim that skeptics are OK with the results Reznick describes in a thread where IDist after IDist has stood up to make ignorant proclamations about a paper they never read. And I do think one reason people don't "get" evolution is that don't know about nice clean examples of rapid evolutionary change of the sort Reznick describes. So I guess I fail to see the "problem" here.wd400
October 14, 2015
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EA responding to wd400:
The key claim of Neo-Darwinism is not that poorly adapted organisms are less likely to survive. Rather, that the organisms and the biological machinery came about in the first place through some kind of purely natural process — under classical Neo-Darwinism, primarily due to random mutations in DNA.
Well said. But you're not going to win this debate because you're debating with psychopaths and jackasses.Mapou
October 14, 2015
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All, some good points made and an interesting discussion. I know it can be frustrating debating with other strongly held viewpoints -- I get just as annoyed as the next person when someone can't see my well-articulated and well-thought-out point -- but let's try to keep the vitriol down just a bit. Thanks,Eric Anderson
October 14, 2015
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Andre @136 :Dmike1962
October 14, 2015
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wd400 @86:
I don’t how much more explicit I can be that the results came about via selection on standing variation.
Excellent. So what we have is nothing more than a simple, run-of-the-mill case of a population being impacted by a new environment, resulting in differential reproduction/survival -- in other words, natural selection. All well and good. So, now we can get back to the key points in the OP: 1. The guppy observations do not demonstrate anything particularly relevant to the questions evolution skeptics have raised. Nobody doubts that if certain members of a population are less adapted to an environment then they will be less likely to survive and contribute to the ongoing gene pool of that population. For Reznick to lament that people don't "believe in evolution" and to suggest that his observations show evolution happening under our nose demonstrates that either (a) he is reading more into his observations than they merit, (b) he doesn't understand the points raised by most evolution skeptics, and/or (c) he is conflating very different concepts under a single word "evolution." Most likely all three of the foregoing. 2. No-one doubts that less fit organisms are less likely to survive in their particular environment. This is a completely pedestrian observation, is something that was known long before Darwin, and we don't need any evolutionary theory to point this out. The key claim of Neo-Darwinism is not that poorly adapted organisms are less likely to survive. Rather, that the organisms and the biological machinery came about in the first place through some kind of purely natural process -- under classical Neo-Darwinism, primarily due to random mutations in DNA. Such a claim has never been demonstrated at any significant level. It certainly has not been demonstrated by the guppy observations, as Reznick and you yourself acknowledge. The only place it seems to have ever been demonstrated is in cases like malaria/sickle cell. I am interested in learning about other confirmed cases of Neo-Darwinian evolution in action. Observing that natural selection has taken place and triumphantly pronouncing that we are witnessing "evolution" is but an exercise in equivocation. We can't just ignore the critical first part of the RM+NS equation. ----- In answer to your other question, I read the press release and the abstract, but was unable to access the full paper. It is quite clear from what I was able to read that Reznick is confused about skeptics' arguments and is conflating very different concepts when he talks about "evolution". That is my primary point. I have already indicated, right up front, that I think Reznick did some good work and obtained some interesting results. I have never argued with a single aspect of his work or the paper, so you don't need to indignantly defend his work or his paper. However, if for some reason you believe there are additional details or nuances in the paper that either (i) demonstrate the RM part of the Neo-Darwinian claim, (ii) refute the key issues raised by evolutionary skeptics, or (iii) demonstrate that Reznick clearly differentiates between natural selection acting on pre-existing biological systems and the ability of blind-natural processes to generate those biological systems in the first place, then please, by all means, provide me a copy and highlight those aspects and I will be more than happy to retract the points I have made.Eric Anderson
October 14, 2015
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Carpathian Do you agree that natural selection is sensitive?Andre
October 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
The fact that you behave like children is a major difference between our two sides.
Children vs pathological liars. At least children are honest and open.Virgil Cain
October 14, 2015
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Carpathian:
Of course they can and of course they do.
Nope, not one of those alleged ” thousands of “Darwinist” scientists” can support evolutionism. Not one of them can model it. If they could they would tell someone about it.
Not one IDist however, has ever attempted to model biological ID.
We have modeled directed evolution.
Everyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
That is incorrect. Both you and Zachriel have proven to be trolls.
Questioning ID is not allowed.
Relevant questions are allowed. Scientifically relevant questions are allowed. You are just to stupid to post any relevant questions.Virgil Cain
October 14, 2015
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Andre:
Please be gentle with natural selection it is very sensitive, I heard it is so sensitive it cries when it farts.
Is that an example of what you'll teach in a fifth grade science class? Keep up the toilet humor. The fact that you behave like children is a major difference between our two sides.Carpathian
October 14, 2015
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