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Oakes: Nietzsche, the Only Honest Atheist

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Ed Oakes has a fabulous essay over at FT.  A taste:

Today, one can hardly find more puffed-up braggarts than those noisy New Atheists currently mounting their soapboxes in Hyde Park, and who seem to labor under the assumption that they are doing the human race a favor by attacking belief in God. In fact, as Nietzsche saw, in his own inimitably ironic way, these atheist frat boys are really attacking science. This is because for Nietzsche—who was perhaps the only truly honest atheist in the history of philosophy—science was ultimately a moral, not an epistemological problem, a point he drove home with special force in The Gay Science (all italics are his):

The question “Why science?” leads back to the moral problem: Why have morality at all when life, nature, and history are “not moral”? . . . [I]t is still a metaphysical faith upon which our faith in science rests—even we seekers after knowledge today, we godless anti-metaphysicians still take our fire, too, from the flame lit by a faith that is thousands of years old, that Christian faith which was also the faith of Plato, that God is the truth, that truth is divine. —But what if this should become more and more incredible, if nothing should prove to be divine any more unless it were error, blindness, the lie—if God himself should prove to be our most enduring lie?

 

In other words, atheist “scientists” are eating away at the very foundation that makes science possible in the first place. If God is “our most enduring lie,” science is inevitably founded on that same lie. After all, science teaches that all stars eventually die out, and with them the planets that orbit them, and once those planets are consumed by the suns that gave them birth, so too will vanish the pathetic creatures that emerged from their respective planetary slimes. Sure, soon after their emergence, they began to invent such high-blown Platonic words like knowledge and truth during their brief strut upon the otherwise empty stage of the cosmos. But so what?

I am not trying to argue here against such a scenario, it being an option impervious to argument anyway, at least among those who have already adopted it as their primary framework for addressing all other questions. (I speak from experience.) But it is a scenario that can hardly be regarded as consequence-free. The battle is still between nihilism and theism. There is no third option.

Comments
above: Could you give me some references to passages where Nietzsche either claimed to be the superman, or indicated that he thought he was on his way to attaining that state? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I don't remember any. In any case, my main point to allanius (who appears to have vanished again), was that Nietzsche was not (in the passage about the madman, anyway)*recommending* killing God, but *announcing* that God had already been killed. My parallel to Christianity was deliberate. Nietzsche often used Biblical-sounding language to make his points. He was deliberately recalling Biblical themes, while of course offering a non-Biblical teaching. I was not attempting to offend anyone, but merely to note that he cast his ideas in Biblical form. It was part of his rhetoric. I don't deny that Nietzsche might have been dishonest at some points. It is often hard to tell because he often writes ironically. But overall I think his teaching is honest, or not more dishonest than most philosophers. A good number of the modern philosophers prior to Nietzsche have been accused, with good reason in most cases, of dishonesty, at least in matters of religious belief. He was much franker about Christianity than were many of his more orthodox-sounding predecessors. T.Timaeus
June 8, 2010
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-"I don’t believe that Nietzsche imagined himself to be the superman; rather, he projected that only the superman would be able to overcome the crisis created by the death of God. He seems to be longing for the coming of the superman (much as the Hebrew prophets longed for the coming of Christ), not claiming such an exalted role for himself (any more than the prophets claimed to be the Christ)." That is simply not true. He did fancy himself as the overman or at least fantasized that he would become him. His role models were the likes of napoleon. That's what his overman represented. Perpetuation of one's power and oppression of the weak, as he himself put it. Although I think that you don't intend to be insulting to Christians with your remarks, I think that any parallel that references Jesus to any of this man's foolish ramblings is simply distasteful. But like Barry, you do have a point. nietzche did have some moments of honesty as I indicated earlier. And to his credit he did - to some extend at least - understand the abhorrent nature of atheism/nihilism. However, that does not detract from the fact that he was also extremely dishonest as I have indicated on several occasions in my previous posts.above
June 8, 2010
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I guess my question immediately above now has its answer. Allanius, for the second time, has pulled a Beckwith on me. (Note: "Pulling a Beckwith" -- cruising through UD, making questionable statements, then vanishing from the thread, thus refusing to defend the statements against rational argument.) T.Timaeus
June 8, 2010
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allanius @ 85: I agree with Barry Arrington. You have not picked up on the details of the Nietzsche passage, and therefore have missed the full meaning of it. Your use of the future tense in "killing God will enable us to" (as opposed to "having killed God now enables us to") misses the point of Nietzsche's madman piece. Nietzsche's point is that Western civilization *has already killed God*, but is not aware of it yet. The madman is not leading the charge to get rid of God; he is pointing out that we have already done so, without knowing it. [For Nietzsche, we have done so by accepting certain philosophical premises (leading to modern science) that are incompatible with retaining belief in God.] I don't believe that Nietzsche imagined himself to be the superman; rather, he projected that only the superman would be able to overcome the crisis created by the death of God. He seems to be longing for the coming of the superman (much as the Hebrew prophets longed for the coming of Christ), not claiming such an exalted role for himself (any more than the prophets claimed to be the Christ). I also agree with Barry that Nietzsche was honest. Misguided, but honest. By the way, you never replied to my criticism of your remarks about Plato on another thread, several weeks ago. Does this mean that I am unlikely to get a reply to my comments here about Nietzsche? T.Timaeus
June 6, 2010
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@allanius, Well said indeed. I would also like to mention that it’s not enough to point out to the destructive nature of this nihilist, his fantasies and his nonsense. It’s not enough to merely indicate that his ideas are logically incoherent and absurd but to actually show how his own thinking is an enemy of itself. Simply put, to demonstrate a reductio ad absurdum that stems not from the foundations of formal logic, but from the foundations of his own thinking. In essence, the reality (if you can call it that) which he operates in cannot sustain itself even without external criticism. The term I like to use to refer to this man is ‘like a snake eating its own tail’. One of the numerous exemplifications of this can be found in the statement I linked above: ““There exists neither “spirit,” nor reason, nor thinking, nor consciousness, nor soul, nor will, nor truth.” So when he claims as you say: -“Nietzsche saw himself as the hero of a liberation drama. He is Prometheus, the bringer of truth, the prophet—as well as the would-be priest and king.” One can only laugh at him. The obvious response is: “If there is no truth, how can you bring us truth? If there is no soul, no will, then how can you give us freedom? If there is no reason, then why should I believe what you are saying?” In another occasion, he claims that he only wishes to seduce the minds of others through extremist rhetoric . Here we see a man blatantly stating the malevolent nature of his writings, yet, it is completely ignored by those who follow him blindly. But you see allanius, mankind cannot bear the burden of nothingness. That is something this foolish man did not consider in his opium-infused ramblings. He went mad by his 40s and the last that was remembered of him, was in the streets of Turin, crying like a little girl and hugging a horse that was being beaten. Now, it’s natural for us to empathize with a suffering horse, but what business does this sadistic, self-centered, power-hungry overman-wannabe, who asserted that the weak need be suppressed, have in empathizing with an animal? nietzche was a living contradiction of his own fantasies. That’s all he ever was.above
June 3, 2010
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Well said, allaniustribune7
June 3, 2010
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Barry, I love your earnestness, but my dear fellow, you are swimming in a sea of sharks. The very passage you cite—we know it well—is one of the most fundamentally dishonest things the “blonde beast” ever penned. Follow me now—if God really is dead, and no signs have any meaning, and life itself is utterly meaningless, then who is this heroic “Madman”? What is the meaning of the sign he chooses for himself? Nothing. Nietzsche saw himself as the hero of a liberation drama. He is Prometheus, the bringer of truth, the prophet—as well as the would-be priest and king. He is the Madman who frightens and amazes the crowd with the supposedly sanitizing power of his madness. He is Zarathustra who comes down from the high places to bring the sweet balm of freedom to the common herd, though they reject him. Dear friend, these narcissistic fantasies form the basis of Modernism itself. The storyline of the age is that God and meaning are dead but a new happiness and Meaning will arise through resistance to God and the heroic efforts of our supermen. As Nietzsche himself put it, killing God will enable us to invent “new gods and new ideals.” The modern experiment shows quite plainly that this was nothing but self-serving fantasy. Killing God did not lead to a happy new empowered state of being. It lead to the “age of anxiety,” to the Wasteland, to the extreme bitterness and alienation on display in the End Game. Anyone who imagines himself to be a superman is deeply dishonest, since all men are like the grass. The boasting of the New Atheists has its origin in Nietzsche.allanius
June 3, 2010
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The Disciples - Would A Man Die For What He Knew Was A Lie? - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/4193404 Did Jesus Christ actually rise from the dead? Excerpt: "it was IMPOSSIBLE that the apostles could have persisted in affirming the truths they had narrated, had not JESUS CHRIST ACTUALLY RISEN FROM THE DEAD, . . ." (Simon Greenleaf, An Examination of the Testimony of the Four Evangelists by the Rules of Evidence Administered in the Courts of Justice, p.29). http://www.av1611.org/resur.htmlbornagain77
June 3, 2010
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tg, Thanks for the reference to one of my favorite passages of scripture, the 1 Cor. quote. Christian scripture provides no basis for self-delusion. Atheists should understand this. Paul was quite serious in his belief that Jesus was whom he claimed to be, and he understood the consequence of it not being a reality, as the passage clearly shows. Yet from what is apparent from scripture and extra-biblical writings of the 1st Century, the first Christians were willing to sacrifice their lives for this belief. It becomes even more powerful when we understand that Paul came from a background of killing and torturing Christian believers as a pharisee, before he became one himself.CannuckianYankee
June 3, 2010
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Seversky @ 55 "I agree. It sounds fantastic. But what if that is all it is, a fantasy? What if it is really only doing for believers what drugs do for others, making the world seem a better place. It is better than drugs in that it is not self-destructive behavior and that it makes this life more bearable by offering the prospect both of life after death and a better one at that. Hope is clearly better than no hope but what if it is an empty promise?" If the hope is an empty promise then we are indeed doomed. As the apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, squarely acknowledging the consequences of being wrong: 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied." The question I would like for you to ask yourself, now that you know what the consequences of a Christian being wrong are, is what are the consequences for an unbeliever to be wrong? I ask this with the utmost humility and concern for you. What if Jesus Christ is Who He said He is? John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." C.S. Lewis said, and I paraphrase, that in the end there are two kinds of people. Those who say to God, "Your will be done" (see v4 above). And those to whom God says, "your will be done." Don't be the latter. John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." You've corresponded with us for long enough to see, I hope, that none of us "just believe." Only fools do that. We are all serious about knowing WHAT IS TRUE because the consequences for being wrong are unimaginably (for me and I expect, others) horrific.tgpeeler
June 1, 2010
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:) You went into much more detail than I would've been able to so I was grateful for it.Phaedros
May 31, 2010
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Phaedros, I was in the process of writing 79 at the time that your 76 was posted. So apparently we're both on the same 'wavelength.'CannuckianYankee
May 31, 2010
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Seversky, Incidentally, the "I AM: comes from what is known as the Tegagramaton in Hebrew. It's the Hebrew letters for YHWH or JHVH, from which we get the names Yahway or Jehovah. Since to say the name of God is claiming to be Him, it was considered blasphemous to mention the name. To prevent scribes from being tempted towards blasphemy, the early Hebrew scriptures never included the entire Tetragramaton. It was always split in two as YH or VH, and never the twain should meet. However, those familiar with the scriptures knew what it meant. Also, there are no vowels between the letters as are found in other Hebrew words, precisely so that the name is never pronounced. So what does all this mean? It means that God's very name is a reference to His eternal nature and essence. The only true essence is God. All other existences are conditional (or contingent) upon the essence of God. It goes against logic and necessity for a contingent being to claim to have the essence only belonging to God. This is why it was considered to be blasphemous to even mention God's true name. Yet what do we find Jesus saying in John's gospel towards the end of the 8th chapter? "Before Abraham was I AM." This explains why at the end of the chapter, they took up stones to stone him - the punishment for blasphemy. Now I think this is an important point in light of the issue that was brought up regarding the creation. If it's to be assumed that God needs to create, which cancels out his self-sufficiency, in light of the eternal nature of God, who's essence is justifiable based upon one of the prime basis' for all logic, that everything that comes into existence has a cause; it becomes quite illogical that the exception to that rule, which is the necessity at the head of all logic; God, should fall under the logical constraints, which we use to justify our beliefs. If God "is" (I AM), and his own identity of himself is timeless, then whatever logical constraints we have, are not logical constraints for God. Yet, God works within the logical constraints we employ to justify our beliefs. He doesn't need to do so, it's simply, as I mentioned earlier, another part of His character as God. He could, if He wanted to, create a universe that is totally absurd, and non-universal law driven. But as an expression of His character he creates what is logical up to, but not going beyond the point of His very essence. Beyond that, what we perceive as logical may be defied. An example: an ability to know what has not as yet come to pass, or three persons being one essence. So the paradoxes we find in the workings of the Godhead are not so much a contradiction to His essence; rather, an indication that He is truly God: beyond the logical constraints, which He has set into place. The Hebrews understood this. What goes agains nature may not necessarily be God - Jesus performed miracles, and so the religious leaders simply accused him of having a devil. However, when he says I AM, he's claiming to have the eternal essence of God. They knew the difference. They were keenly aware that simply performing supernatural acts does not a Godhead make. What makes God who He is is more than that. His essence must show signs that He is outside the very constraints of our logic, yet must also have His very essence confirmed within those constraints. So God's essence is confirmed within our logical constraints as the necessary first cause of all that exists. His essence defies, or rather transcends those constraints as the only uncaused cause. You have to ask yourself when you make arguments that God cannot be who He is because an omnipotent self-sufficient god would not create out of need; whether such an argument falls within the first area of reasoning or the second. I personally believe it falls within the first, so it's pretty much trumped by the necessity argument, even though I believe personally that the argument is formed on the basis of a false premise: that creating something indicates a need to do so. Such an argument is not even true within our own logic, so how could it be true of God?CannuckianYankee
May 31, 2010
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I found these scriptures: 2 Timothy 1:9 "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time." Titus 1:2 "A faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time."bornagain77
May 31, 2010
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1 Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. Unto The King - Song http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=e6f4eaa48bd8fa28aaa0bornagain77
May 31, 2010
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CannuckianYankee- A shocking reference to timelessness from this perspective was when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM."Phaedros
May 31, 2010
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Seversky, If you want a scriptural basis for eternity being timeless, it's in God's name, which if appropriately translated, is "I Am." It's not "I always have been," or "I always Am," but simply "I Am." There's no time reference to this at all.CannuckianYankee
May 31, 2010
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Seversky "It also raises another question. God is assumed to have no beginning and no end. But we do. So what changed? God has existed forever but at some point He suddenly decides to create a Universe and populate it with living things, including us. Why? Why then – whenever “then” was? Or has there been an infinite succession of Creations and an infinite succession of chosen or favored races?" You are making the assumption that "eternity" in the scriptures refers to infinite time. This is not warranted. Time is meaningless in eternity. It doesn't mean infinite time, it means infinite essence. God exists from eternity to eternity, which doesn't mean that He lives in infinite time. Eternity cancels time, so God is timeless. So your argument doesn't work. Time is only relavent in the universe. God created the universe, so obviously He's outside of time and space, while He can also be within it.CannuckianYankee
May 31, 2010
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Seversky, "That still doesn’t help. Yes, it is within His power to create whatever He wants but you are still positing a being who has a need for something “other” than Himself which contradicts his presumed necessity and perfection." Well then it's really an issue of semantics then, if you think that creating something is only out of need. Did Shakespeare need to create Hamlet, or was it his passion; his drive? There's a huge difference. He didn't need to create us, in the same way that Shakespeare didn't need to create Hamlet. Now there are limits to this comparison, because Shakespeare obviously was not God, so don't take this to far. The similarity is not in the passion, but in the heart. I would say that God created from His heart, but I think more accurately it would be from His character. Humans have passions, which make them do what they do. God has a particular character, which, from what he does, is a natural outflow. He doesn't need to do it, it's in His character to do it. God is love, so He does what is love out of the natural outflow of his character. If He did not love, He would not be God. It's not a need, it's just who He is. I have blue eyes. Do I need to have blue eyes? No, it's just who I am. All of these arguments you're giving tend to flow naturally to absurdity. It's like you're looking for an escape route to disbelieve in God, rather than to accept the logic that is necessary for even your own existence. Part of that escape route is that God can't exist if he needs anything. He created us, so He needs something, therefore, He can't exist. That argument is so pathetically weak if you compare it with the imminently more for forceful arguments for God's necessity.CannuckianYankee
May 31, 2010
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@seversky -"A perfect, necessary God would have no need and hence no reason to create anything outside of Himself." What kind of reason is that? Why are you equivocating need with reason? That's a non-sequitur. Now as far as why he chose to create the world 13.7 bya and not 3 minutes earlier is an irrelevant question.above
May 31, 2010
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CannuckianYankee @ 69
Throughout the development of Christian theology, and within the scriptures themselves, God is never portrayed as needing anything. In all the literature I have read (and I’ve read a lot) God is portrayed as self-sufficient. Your question: “Why create?” then requires an answer somewhere. That answer is in the character of a self-sufficient omnipotent and omniscient God. In that character is God’s other-directedness. While He doesn’t share our emotions of desire and loss, his character is other-directed. Therefore, it’s perfectly within His character to create and love His creation. It is also within that character to create sentient beings, who can respond to His other-directedness.
That still doesn't help. Yes, it is within His power to create whatever He wants but you are still positing a being who has a need for something "other" than Himself which contradicts his presumed necessity and perfection. It also raises another question. God is assumed to have no beginning and no end. But we do. So what changed? God has existed forever but at some point He suddenly decides to create a Universe and populate it with living things, including us. Why? Why then - whenever "then" was? Or has there been an infinite succession of Creations and an infinite succession of chosen or favored races?Seversky
May 31, 2010
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StephenB @ 56
Surely, you must know that an omnipotent, truine God has no “needs,” being already complete and independent. Thus, a perfect God creating out of need would be a contradiction in terms.
My point exactly. A perfect, necessary God would have no need and hence no reason to create anything outside of Himself. Yet, according to Christians, that is what he has done. This suggests that either He is not the perfect, necessary being Christians believe Him to be or this entire Universe was created on a random impulse or He does not exist at all.
How about this? A good God wanted to share his goodness in the form of a beatific vision and establish a loving relationsip with his creatures...
That is one possibility but the proposal still implies both that God is doing this to satisfy a need or want that cannot be met from internal resources and that He cannot foresee the outcomes of His actions in their entirety. Where is the satisfaction in being given love when you know in advance exactly how that person will feel and exactly how they will express that feeling? In effect, they would be acting out a predetermined plan or program like some sort of robot. That is what omniscience implies for free will.Seversky
May 31, 2010
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Seveersky, Re: 55 To add to what tg, Phaedros and BA replied, let me add the following observation. Throughout the development of Christian theology, and within the scriptures themselves, God is never portrayed as needing anything. In all the literature I have read (and I've read a lot) God is portrayed as self-sufficient. Your question: "Why create?" then requires an answer somewhere. That answer is in the character of a self-sufficient omnipotent and omniscient God. In that character is God's other-directedness. While He doesn't share our emotions of desire and loss, his character is other-directed. Therefore, it's perfectly within His character to create and love His creation. It is also within that character to create sentient beings, who can respond to His other-directedness. While this is theologically and scripturally sound, it is also logically sound. If God is perfect in all categories, and love exists in the Godhead (The Trinity), then the perfect expression of love is not inward-directed, but other-directed. Love is by nature not self-directed. However, because of the freedom expressed by his sentient creation at the fall, humans began to express the contradiction - self-directed love. Cain slew Abel. And since then, human love has been expressed more in a struggle for each individual to survive, than it has been expressed as other-directed according to the character of God. Then along comes Jesus, and the rest is history, or should I say "future."CannuckianYankee
May 30, 2010
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To echo some of the points allanius has made, nietzsche was very dishonest in so many other respects as well. He created this entire imaginary fiasco of the ubermensch in his mind to compensate for the reality that he was in fact a weakling (both physically and mentally). As Bertrand Russell (an atheist of all people) puts it, nietzsche’s work is “the power fantasies of an invalid”. Another incidence where he is extremely dishonest is in his pursuit of this alleged liberation and gratification (via the ubermensch fantasy), despite the fact that said endeavor is incoherent given nihilism. Simply put, there is no freedom in nihilism. The irony is, that he realized it and explicitly stated it but still went ahead and pretended as if this alleged imaginary friend he called the ubermensch would enable him to be free. The quote is as follows: “There exists neither "spirit," nor reason, nor thinking, nor consciousness, nor soul, nor will, nor truth.” After reading that statement, any reasonable person’s obvious response would be… So why should I believe anything that you have to say fredrick? All too often the anti-intellectualism of post-modernity conveniently forgets this, just like our little friend fredrick did. That is in my opinion the state of the intellectual degeneracy witnessed in some parts of our society today. The problem compounds itself, when said "nietzchean offsprings" advocate said position as the truth. Hypocrisy would be an understatement in this case. A lot more can be said about this man and his idiocy, but for now I will leave it at that. @ CannuckianYankee #36 -“Not even Ubermensch leads anywhere beyond the temporal and mundane. It’s simply meaningless, because it starts from the circumstance of human temporal existence, and attempts to find meaning – just like what you’re attempting to do. You don’t get something out of nothing.” That’s precisely right. That is the self-imposed delusion of the nihilist and his twin brother, the atheist, who believe that meaning can be fabricated. Even in this instance, we not only witness the futility and incoherence of their belief but the impossibility of consistently living a life under such pretense… Hence we see the constant hijacking of Theistic ideals by such characters as a means to comfort themselves. Honesty and specifically personal honesty it seems has been sacrificed... And for what? To worship their prescious nothingness?above
May 30, 2010
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Now I want to touch up on the issue of this notorious nihilist a little. The way I understand nietzsche is something similar to a social critic. Reading him in such a context I would say that at least some of his writings are in part honest. He clearly understands the meaninglessness created from rejecting God and how that ties well will the ideals of ethics. That is not a point this new breed of watered-down anti-intellectuals known as new atheists are willing to accept. They simply act under the delusion that normative order in ethics, experience, science can be substituted by biology. But as it has been repeated by some here (kairosfocus comes to mind) there is no way to ground is into ought under a atheistic/nihilistic worldview. As I stated in a previous topic in response to Clive, ethics are at the heart of all human endeavors (ref. Haldane). nietzsche realized that and along with his attack on morals he also launched an assault on science itself. I am surprised Oakes did not include the following quote from gay science but here it is: “It is no different with the faith with which so many materialistic natural scientists rest content nowadays, the faith in a world that is supposed to have its equivalent and its measure in human thought and human valuations—a "world of truth" that can be mastered completely and forever with the aid of our square little reason. What? Do we really want to permit existence to be degraded for us like this—reduced to a mere exercise for a calculator and an indoor diversion for mathematicians? Above all, one should not wish to divest existence of its rich ambiguity [multi-interpretable character; C.B.] that is a dictate of good taste, gentlemen, the taste of reverence for everything that lies beyond your horizon. That the only justifiable interpretation of the world should be one in which you are justified because one can continue to work and do research scientifically in your sense (you really mean, mechanistically?)—an interpretation that permits counting, calculating, weighing, seeing, and touching, and nothing more—that is a crudity and naivete, assuming that it is not a mental illness, an idiocy. Would it not be rather probable that, conversely, precisely the most superficial and external aspect of existence—what is most apparent, its skin and sensualization—would be grasped first—and might even be the only thing that allowed itself to be grasped? A "scientific" interpretation of the world, as you understand it, might therefore still be one of the most stupid of all possible interpretations of the world, meaning that it be one of the poorest in meaning. This thought is intended for the ears and consciences of our mechanists who nowadays like to pass as philosophers and insist that mechanics is the doctrine of the first and last laws on which all existence must be based as on a ground floor. But an essentially mechanical world would be an essentially meaningless world. Assuming that one estimated the value of a piece of music according to how much of it could be counted, calculated, and expressed in formulas: how absurd would such a "scientific" estimation of music be! What would one have comprehended, understood, grasped of it? Nothing, really nothing of what is "music" in it!” Here we see the nihilist attack not only science (which we all agree is a integral part of modern human endeavor) but also attacks, and rightly so, the faith of the materialist/naturalist. So what we see once again is honesty in regards to how destructive materialistic dogma is on the human spirit but simultaneously see him throw the baby (honest science) out with the bathwater. while most of us find this disturbing and moronic, this was of no concern to a self-proclaimed irrational man, whose only purpose was to propagate intellectual and existential suicide.above
May 30, 2010
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@StephenB + Phaedros -"Surely, you must know that an omnipotent, truine God has no “needs,” being already complete and independent. Thus, a perfect God creating out of need would be a contradiction in terms. How about this? A good God wanted to share his goodness in the form of a beatific vision and establish a loving relationsip with his creatures. Since only free creatures can participate in a loving relationship and, in the end, experience this vision, God endowed them with the requisite free will. In granting that power, God took a risk, knowing that many of his creatures would abuse the privilege and seek to become their own Gods, wreaking havoc in the universe. In other words, free will can either say yes or no to the offer of love. Equally important, love cannot express itself in the absence of free will." That is an illustration of my thoughts on the matter. Well said. -"apart from what StephenB I would say there are two possible answers that don’t necessarily contradict eah other. One is, to know Christ, i.e. to know God in some sense, and also, “We just don’t know.” At least, we don’t understand the full reason or purpose as to why we are here." Phaedros, Like you said, I believe it's important to remember the limits of our knowledge and in doing so remain humble.above
May 30, 2010
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Thanks for the insights everyone. :) The videos were all very interesting. I especially enjoyed hearing RC Sproul and his perspective.above
May 30, 2010
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Personally When I look at the universe, unlike Sagan, I am awed by the power of God, Louie Giglio - How Great Is Our God - Part 2 - video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfNiZrt5FjU You could fit 262 trillion earths inside (the star of) Betelgeuse. If the Earth were a golfball that would be enough to fill up the Superdome (football stadium) with golfballs,,, 3000 times!!! When I heard that as a teenager that stumped me right there because most of my praying had been advising God, correcting God, suggesting things to God, drawing diagrams for God, reviewing things with God, counseling God. - Louie Giglio Psalm 8: 3-4 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained; What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? Journey Through the Universe - George Smoot - video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3993965/ In fact, I find the fact this seemingly insignificant earth is found to revolve around the much more massive sun to be reflective of our true spiritual condition. In regards to God's "kingdom of light", are we not to keep in mind our lives are to be guided by the much higher purpose which is tied to our future in God's "kingdom of light"? Are we not to avoid placing too much emphasis on what this world has to offer, since it is so much more insignificant than what heaven has to offer? Sara Groves - You Are The Sun - Music video http://www.metacafe.com/watch/3993951/ The NDE and the City of Light - Kevin Williams' research conclusions Excerpt: Fifty of the near-death experiences I profile on this website which I gathered statistics on, 17% of them experienced a city of light. These cities of light have been described by various experiencers using such adjectives as: golden, beautiful, unearthly, fairy tale-like, indescribable, beyond anything that can be described, so superior to anything on Earth, colorful, brilliant, heavenly, endless, crystalline, grand, paradise, and galaxy-like. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research19.htmlbornagain77
May 29, 2010
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above- Actually, sorry, it's not a pale shadow it's really a kind of paganism or nature worship which is in opposition to God.Phaedros
May 29, 2010
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I am not a fan of Carl Sagan, but on this subject I want to give a pertinent quote from him, along with the accompanying crapipedia entry: Sagan, however, denied that he was an atheist: "An atheist has to know a lot more than I know."[36] In reply to a question in 1996 about his religious beliefs, Sagan answered, "I'm agnostic."[37] Sagan maintained that the idea of a creator of the universe was difficult to prove or disprove and that the only conceivable scientific discovery that could challenge it would be an infinitely old universe. Oddly, this would drop Sagan squarely against most of the 'New Atheists'.nullasalus
May 29, 2010
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