Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

A Final Word on “Evidence”

Share
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
Zachriel: They may take many detours, but the artist, like a wagon master, always keeps the final destination in mind.
Probably more often than not, but not always. Sometimes the destination is a surprise. As with everything else, endings can be improvised as well.
Sure, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have a design or global structure. For instance, most jazz is based on a chord progression, and includes a final cadence.
To generalize even more, musicians will come together and have a "jam session", where someone will begin with some riff or rhythm and the whole thing takes off as an improvised experiment without any predetermined destination whatsoever in mind. Some results are (subjectively) better than others, but the whole thing is improvised. Great music is often created from such improvised "jams", all under the control of intelligent agents choosing within certain constraints of their talent, training, taste and mood. I know. I've been there. Many times.mike1962
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
07:34 AM
7
07
34
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: I asked and you didn’t provide. With regards to jazz music, you agreed that there is structure, that there's a subjective element, but we pointed out that nearly all jazz songs lead towards a final cadence. Silver Asiatic: The structure is not planned- it is improvised. That doesn't mean it isn't designed. Silver Asiatic: The ‘final destination’ is the communication of emotion and beauty through the medium of music. It’s not to create a structure. The structure is what is used to communicate the emotion and beauty. The global structure is what gives a song the feeling of movement. Silver Asiatic: In many cases, the improvised piece is gone after it is played – never to be repeated. Sure, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a design or global structure. For instance, most jazz is based on a chord progression, and includes a final cadence.Zachriel
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
07:29 AM
7
07
29
AM
PDT
Zach
Feel free to ask for support at any time.
I note you giving me permission for this - but I don't need that. I'm already free. In this case, I asked and you didn't provide.
The global structure of a jazz tune is designed.
Yes, it is designed but as I explained, in some cases, it is not pre-planned. The structure is not planned- it is improvised.
The artist and audience are on a journey, and virtually all jazz tunes have a final cadence. They may take many detours, but the artist, like a wagon master, always keeps the final destination in mind.
The 'final destination' is the communication of emotion and beauty through the medium of music. It's not to create a structure. The 'final destination' of language is the communication of meaning through the medium of symbol. It's not to create a structure. In many cases, the improvised piece is gone after it is played - never to be repeated. The 'destination' was the communication of music to the audience.
Language does not have this aspect of a destination,
It does have this aspect. The global structure is an after-effect of the purpose of the language. It's the same as an improvised jazz piece. The structure is the after-effect of the intent to communicate music. The structure is designed by choices of the individual chords and notes -- even not knowing what the structure will be or intending to create a structure. The global structure of the language is designed by individual choices of words and sounds -- even not knowing what the structure will be or intending to create a structure.
nor do the vast majority of changes to the language occur due to some vision of the future course of the language.
As with an improvised piece - it is played 'in the moment', in the present tense, based on what the artists feel, without plan. The end result is a work of intelligent design. The same is true with language. The language is created through intelligent design - not through blind, unintelligent, unguided material processes.Silver Asiatic
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
07:14 AM
7
07
14
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: I’ll apply that to unsupported assertions about evolution and other apsects of science when I hear them. Feel free to ask for support at any time. Keep in mind that jazz was your example, not ours. Silver Asiatic: Jazz artists can improvise the structure. And do. Silver Asiatic: That is, the piece has a structure, but it wasn’t designed – it came into existence as the piece was being played, without a plan. It wasn't preplanned. That doesn't mean it wasn't designed. Silver Asiatic: It’s the same with language. Um, no. Silver Asiatic: It shows evidence of having been designed, even if the structure was improvised without intent or plan on having that specific structure. Gee whiz. You made a big point of being argumentative about whether the best jazz performances have an overall structure, even though you apparently accept that they do. The global structure of a jazz tune is designed. The artist and audience are on a journey, and virtually all jazz tunes have a final cadence. They may take many detours, but the artist, like a wagon master, always keeps the final destination in mind. Language does not have this aspect of a destination, nor do the vast majority of changes to the language occur due to some vision of the future course of the language.Zachriel
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
05:38 AM
5
05
38
AM
PDT
mike1962
Of course, there are always going to be underlying factors controlling the chaos, such as the training, taste and mood of the individual players. It is certainly an intelligent process.
Exactly right. That's the analogy with language. There are factors that shape the design through intelligent decisions.
but that structure may or may not be worked out in advance. In any case, it’s an intelligent process of creation.
That's it. The overall shape of the language comes about from the influence of many intelligent decisions. The language formation is an intelligent (not physically determined) process - in the same way the jazz piece is not worked out in advance, but it's an intelligent process that created it. In the end, we see evidence of design in the jazz improvisation. We even see 'intent', although the specific notes weren't intended or planned. The artists might even be suprised to hear back a recording of what they played, not knowing what they did. How could that be intent? It's the overall piece, feeling, and purpose of the music that shows design intent - not the individual notes. Language is the same - there's an obvious intention to use symbols to communicate meaning, even if the individual symbols came about in an improvised manner.Silver Asiatic
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
05:12 AM
5
05
12
AM
PDT
As for what 'the best jazz' is -- it's a question of taste. Beyond that, it's not a question of whether the jazz 'has an overall structure' but whether the structure "was designed"
Zachriel: The global structure wasn’t designed.
Jazz artists can improvise the structure. That is, the piece has a structure, but it wasn't designed - it came into existence as the piece was being played, without a plan. Does that piece of music show evidence of having been designed? According to Zach - no, because "the global structure wasn't designed". It's the same with language. It shows evidence of having been designed, even if the structure was improvised without intent or plan on having that specific structure. It's the same with an improvised jazz piece (I can suggest some of Keith Jarrett's work) where the entire structure is a one-time event, unplanned by the artist.Silver Asiatic
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
05:04 AM
5
05
04
AM
PDT
SA: Do you have some empirical evidence to support that claim? Zachriel: ... [nothing] mike1962: Entirely subjective viewpoint. Yes. That's what's informative here. I got my answers to the following questions: SA: Or perhaps you’re offering an assertion just based on your personal authority about such matters? [Yes, correct - a subjective opinion stated as if it is a fact.] SA: If so, what is that authority and how did you determine what ‘the best jazz’ is? [No authority supporting that assertion and no means offered (scientific or otherwise) to determine what the 'best jazz' is]. I'll apply that understanding to unsupported assertions about evolution and other aspects of science when I hear them from Zachriel in the future. Unsupported opinions stated as if they are fact, are merely a subjective viewpoint and have no real value.Silver Asiatic
March 30, 2015
March
03
Mar
30
30
2015
04:59 AM
4
04
59
AM
PDT
mike1962: I would probably agree that the best performances do have an overall structure, but that structure may or may not be worked out in advance. Then we are in agreement. However, because the topic is largely subjective, Silver Asiatic should probably abandon the analogy.Zachriel
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
05:14 PM
5
05
14
PM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: There are many jazz artists who improvise the structure of each piece with absolutely no written or pre-ordained plan.
This is true, as I know by personal experience as a jazz musician who improvises a great deal. Of course, there are always going to be underlying factors controlling the chaos, such as the training, taste and mood of the individual players. It is certainly an intelligent process.
Zachriel: However, the best jazz performances have an overall structure.
Entirely subjective viewpoint. I would probably agree that the best performances do have an overall structure, but that structure may or may not be worked out in advance. In any case, it's an intelligent process of creation.mike1962
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
03:21 PM
3
03
21
PM
PDT
Zachriel:
There’s no evidence of intelligent agents involved in either of those examples.
Then it is strange that evidence for intelligent agency involvement has been presented for both examples, start with Newton's Principia.Joe
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
02:04 PM
2
02
04
PM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Do you have some empirical evidence to support that claim? You introduced jazz as an example with the statement, "Your guys objection seems to be 'but the jazz-player’s notes weren’t by design – he was improvising'. You don't have to adopt our preferences to understand that we reject your characterization of our position. If you don't agree that the best performances have structure, then we can just disregard your example.Zachriel
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
01:31 PM
1
01
31
PM
PDT
Zach
However, the best jazz performances have an overall structure.
Do you have some empirical evidence to support that claim? We'd just need to see, scientifically, what the 'best jazz' is, and how to produce it. Or perhaps you're offering an assertion just based on your personal authority about such matters? If so, what is that authority and how did you determine what 'the best jazz' is? There are many jazz artists who improvise the structure of each piece with absolutely no written or pre-ordained plan.Silver Asiatic
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
01:24 PM
1
01
24
PM
PDT
mike1962: Those detailed improvisational decisions are typically made without much “look ahead” except for the general framework of the song. In some jazz, that is certainly the case, which is why many people think jazz tends to meander. However, the best jazz performances have an overall structure. mike1962: While fine details of termite mounds vary, the overall production is obviously a termite mound. Sure. Hive intelligence shows how complex global solutions can result from very simple decisions at the local level.Zachriel
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
01:01 PM
1
01
01
PM
PDT
Zachriel: The global structure, as well as the individual notes, are the result of design decisions by the musician, even if those decisions are made on the fly.
Those detailed improvisational decisions are typically made without much "look ahead" except for the general framework of the song. The end product can vary in details quite a bit from one performance to the next, but the agreed upon framework is what gives constraints to the improvisation and yields a song (regardless of any improvisational differences between performances) that still "sound like song XYZ" to anyone who has heard song XYZ played before. While fine details of termite mounds vary, the overall production is obviously a termite mound. There are choice constraints programmed into their neurology that shape the entire production, govern what individuals can do, yielding an overall result that has predictable properties. Front-loaded constraints govern both to a result with predetermined properties.mike1962
March 29, 2015
March
03
Mar
29
29
2015
12:26 PM
12
12
26
PM
PDT
Neil Rickert: We all know that there’s no such thing as a final word. Mung: And that, my friends. is the final word on final words! After which Neil remained silent, having had the final word. Hilarious! And this is the height of the quality of dissent here at UD. You won't find better.Mung
March 27, 2015
March
03
Mar
27
27
2015
11:50 PM
11
11
50
PM
PDT
Zachriel:
There’s no evidence of intelligent agents involved in either of those examples.
How would you know? You don't seem to know what evidence is.
No one decided to merge Anglo-Saxon and French to create modern English.
You don't know that zachriel, so please shut up.Joe
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
09:37 AM
9
09
37
AM
PDT
Silver Asiatic: Language = Not Designed. But nobody is saying there was no input from intelligent agents. Just to clarify, it's the global structure of language that is not designed. Some local events are designed, while others are happenstance. Silver Asiatic: Cosmos = Not Designed. But nobody is saying there was no input from intelligent agents. First Life on Earth = Not Designed. But there could have been input from intelligent agents. There's no evidence of intelligent agents involved in either of those examples. Silver Asiatic: Ok, “input from intelligent agents” is necessary for the thing to exist. It’s part of it’s origin. That’s design. The global structure is not designed if the global structure is not due to efforts by intelligent agents. With language, you can point to design in particular cases, but the overall structure is still not designed. No one decided to merge Anglo-Saxon and French to create modern English. It was the result of the many individual interactions between two cultures. Silver Asiatic: Your guys objection seems to be “but the jazz-player’s notes weren’t by design – he was improvising”. The global structure, as well as the individual notes, are the result of design decisions by the musician, even if those decisions are made on the fly. There is a branch of network mathematics that concerns these sorts of interactions. Networks will grow by preferential attachment without regard to the global structure. A global structure can still emerge through self-organization.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
09:24 AM
9
09
24
AM
PDT
velikovskys
I don’t believe anyone is saying there was no input [from intelligent agents].
If that's the critique of the ID argument then it could go something like this. Language = Not Designed. But nobody is saying there was no input from intelligent agents. Cosmos = Not Designed. But nobody is saying there was no input from intelligent agents. First Life on Earth = Not Designed. But there could have been input from intelligent agents. Ok, "input from intelligent agents" is necessary for the thing to exist. It's part of it's origin. That's design. "Not Designed" means its origin can be explained without reference to intelligent agents. Not Designed means that there was no input from intelligent agents. Software can produce unexpected results. The results would not exist unless they came from the designed system called software. Were the unexpected results planned? Designed? The unexpected results are evidence that they emerged from a designed system. Design explains the origin of the results. Another example would be an improvisational jazz solo. It is the product of an intelligent agent. It cannot be produced without the design-input of intelligence. Your guys objection seems to be "but the jazz-player's notes weren't by design - he was improvising". There's your quandry: Either the jazz solo shows evidence of having been designed by intelligence, or not. If not, then show how an improvised jazz solo can be produced "without the input of intelligent agents". If you think it does show evidence of design, then explain how the artist planned every note (which is not what improvisation is). That's what you have to reconcile here.Silver Asiatic
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
09:08 AM
9
09
08
AM
PDT
That’s right, very simple behaviors that could easily evolve.
Evolve by design.
Evolution generally (not precisely*) selects only for current gain.
Only intelligence selects.
That’s the claim, but one rejected by the vast majority of biologists, and contradicted by evidence from many fields of research.
Zachriel will never present any of that alleged evidence.
One without a designer.
Humans are designers. That means you are wrong, again, as usual.Joe
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
08:02 AM
8
08
02
AM
PDT
EugeneS: However, this type of collective behaviour is only possible given the right starting conditions. I.e. each termite must be intelligent enough in that it must be capable of making certain type of decisions. That's right, very simple behaviors that could easily evolve. EugeneS: Evolution is a secondary phenomenon to intelligently selecting for/in pursuit of future function. It can only select from among existing functions. Think that's right, at least the second part. Evolution generally (not precisely*) selects only for current gain. *Some looks forward are possible, such as mistakes during protein synthesis, adjusting the mutation rate, inherent flexibility in a changeable environment, etc. EugeneS: Without intelligence put in the system in the form of rules of behaviour, in the first place, evolution can never produce novel function (pragmatic utility). That's the claim, but one rejected by the vast majority of biologists, and contradicted by evidence from many fields of research. Box: Language is simply a joint design project – like many others. One without a global designer.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:57 AM
7
07
57
AM
PDT
Piotr:
Those individual choices were not purposeful and did not result in any kind of “design”.
You have no idea if it was on purpose on not, Piotr. However even that is moot as we are intelligent agencies and we act accordingly. WE controlled the whole thing, Piotr. Blind and unguided processes had nothing to do with our language.Joe
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:45 AM
7
07
45
AM
PDT
Termites designed the termite mound. Do you think it's just an accident that termite mounds are engineering marvels?Joe
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:41 AM
7
07
41
AM
PDT
Language is simply a joint design project - like many others.Box
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
SA: Termite mounds are the product of coordinated, purposeful activity. They don’t arise randomly or through any physical law. If you don’t think termite mounds show evidence of having been designed. Who designed the termite mound? Are all termite mounds identical?velikovskys
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:35 AM
7
07
35
AM
PDT
Zachriel #278 True, individual termites have no idea about the global pattern. However, this type of collective behaviour is only possible given the right starting conditions. I.e. each termite must be intelligent enough in that it must be capable of making certain type of decisions. Then and only then, do agents like termites collectively produce the result they produce. Evolution is a secondary phenomenon to intelligently selecting for/in pursuit of future function. It can only select from among existing functions. True, it does select from already existing functions. However effects of this type of selection are generally heavily overstated. Without intelligence put in the system in the form of rules of behaviour, in the first place, evolution can never produce novel function (pragmatic utility). All discussions about probabilities, information, entropy, patterns or absence of patterns are beside the point. Mere complexity does not equal functional organization that achieves high levels of pragmatic utility.EugeneS
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:26 AM
7
07
26
AM
PDT
Box: Anyone who states that language arose without the input of intelligent agents is either a liar or a fool. I don't believe anyone is saying there was no input. Rather you can change one pixel( input) of a picture without changing the pattern, but change enough and a new pattern emerges.velikovskys
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Very simple local decisions of starlings, bees, or sardines in a school lead to complex, dynamic and highly coordinated swarm behaviour. Nobody could dream of achieving a remotely similar effect by means of central planning.Piotr
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:22 AM
7
07
22
AM
PDT
Box: I have made no claims concerning the use of language. No one doubts "that language arose without the input of intelligent agents." That's not the same as saying whether its global structure was designed. There's an entire field of network theory concerning how local decisions self-organize into global structures. --- Comment edited by patented (not really) DeSnark® desnarkification algorithm.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:13 AM
7
07
13
AM
PDT
Zachriel: No one doubts that the use of language is intelligent.
Unresponsive. I have made no claims concerning the use of language.Box
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
07:06 AM
7
07
06
AM
PDT
Box: Anyone who states that language arose without the input of intelligent agents is either a liar or a fool. No one is making that claim. No one doubts that the use of language is intelligent. The question concerns whether its global structure was designed.Zachriel
March 26, 2015
March
03
Mar
26
26
2015
06:58 AM
6
06
58
AM
PDT
1 2 3 4 11

Leave a Reply