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A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
@Barry #175
HeKS @ 150: I responded to what you are saying here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/thanks-for-the-csi-debate-back-to-work-for-me/
Hi Barry, I'm a little confused here. First, when you say you responded there, do you mean you wrote in disagreement of something I've said or some point I'm making, or merely that you wrote on the same subject? Second, the post you linked to is one where you quote me at length, citing my argument in agreement. So I'm not entirely sure what you're responding to or what you're saying.HeKS
March 24, 2015
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tabasco
If person A says that something is evidence for P, and person B, after due consideration, decides that it doesn’t satisfy the definition above, then person B is being neither dishonest nor lazy in saying that it isn’t evidence.
You want to live or die with this claim, but it simply isn't true. Evidence either supports a proposition or it does not. In order to support a proposition, it must first be relevant to the proposition. Anyone who cannot or will not discern its relevance or lack of it is either being dishonest or lazy. Kim Kardashian's hair color is not relevant to mathematics. Anyone who believes otherwise is either dishonest, lazy, or stupid. The beginning of the universe is relevant to arguments for the existence of God. Anyone who believes otherwise is either dishonest, lazy, or stupid.StephenB
March 24, 2015
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tabasco
That example doesn’t contradict any claim I’ve made here, as you know. That is why you can’t come up with one.
I can provide quotes all day long. Here is another:
Is the current color of Kim Kardashian’s hair evidence that there are infinitely many prime numbers?
The relationship between Kam Kardashian's hair and mathematics does not relate in any way to the relationship between a hypothesis and its supporting evidence. It certainly does not refute the theme of the OP. Why would you think that it does?
The one you did quote isn’t refuted by Barry’s example: Yes, it is. That would explain why you refuse to address it? Don't you think it is time that you did?
StephenB
March 24, 2015
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NQ: Have you had your name "outed," and your uninvolved wife and children [with hinted at mafioso style threats], with attempts to publish street address and more? Not to mention general nastiness, etc? Or, had someone make false accusations to your boss to try to get you in job trouble? If you have not, then go take a long walk to a reflection pool and think again about what you are enabling. Shame on you. KFkairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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TSZ is a losing cause. Nothing will ever sway that ilk into anything other than their pseudo-science panderings. If the TSZ ilk could ante up and support their position that would be different but they don't because they can't. All they can do is attack ID with their belligerent ignorance. The place is run by liars and has liars for regular posters. Who needs to deal with that?Joe
March 24, 2015
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KF responding to a request to debate at TSZ: "PS: As policy, I will not try to get into debates at sites where abusive commenters are common and especially where — under false colours of free expression — they are allowed or even encouraged to get away with slander, abuse etc. UD is plainly sufficient. I doubly apologise for a potential side-track, and for not having time just now to mount a separate thread." IOW, he is brave enough to dish out abuse at UD knowing that anyone who responds with abuse will be banned, but too cowardly to comment at TSZ where only one person has been banned. And, I might add, where there is far less abuse than at UD.not_querius
March 24, 2015
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Piotr:
Few things are as common in the world of humans (and this site is by no means an exception) as false beliefs.
Evolutionism and materialism are two such false beliefs.Joe
March 24, 2015
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Aurelio Smith:
If it’s the same God, why are Muslims, Jews and Christians fighting each other?
It is the same God, ie the God of Abraham, and people fight each other for many reasons. Islam, Judaism and Christianity all worship the same God in different ways. Those different ways are cause of conflict in some cases.Joe
March 24, 2015
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AS What I would suggest is for you to start with your strongest interest and/or point of opposition. It seems, for example, you're totally opposed to testimonial evidence. Is that true for every field of study, or just religion? If just religion, then it would be good to know why. So, you could research the best arguments in favor of testimonial evidence and build your strongest case against them. History, sociology, psychology -- among other fields, rely on testimonial evidence. You'd need some confidence in that to analyze the validity of eyewitness accounts of miracles, for example. It also helps with conversion stories or claims of various sorts of spiritual experiences that people have had. Beyond that, there's philosophical evidence which you can research and test logically. (For example, does every aspect of reality require some conditions to be fulfilled in order for it to exist?). If you want an experiential test of religion, you could give any number of them a try (as many people do) - through immersion in the experience and analysis of observed results. My religion is Catholicism, so naturally I would suggest that you research the evidence in support of that and then experiment by trying the recommended beginning steps. One means of discovering evidence in support of religion is to undertake the exercise of prayer, fasting, spiritual awareness and moral improvement. Lots of religious evidence can be observed through spiritual insight. Since we're not talking about empirical sources, the use of physical science as the only means of awareness is obviously inappropriate. Those are a few ideas anyway.Silver Asiatic
March 24, 2015
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AS, that you start with "religion" instead of worldviews foundation analysis -- what was pointed to -- is itself a symptom of the problem of refusing to address relevant evidence on its strength because of where it points. And BTW, testimony of actual witnesses is evidence that can carry great weight, which extends to reasonable record of such that is fair on the face and coming from adequate chain of custody. Blanket sweeping away of categories of evidence is a sign of selective hyperskepticism. I again point you to the rope vs the chain; short, weak fibres combined and working together make a long rope that is vastly stronger than its individual components. Such, is cumulative evidence. As just one example in the 9th Bridgewater Treatise, Babbage showed how the combined evidence of multiple witnesses can overwhelm any reasonable view that perhaps witnesses may have been mistaken or the like, on miracles: beyond a certain point, too many convergent lines of evidence would have to be wrong and wrong in a consistent way, for such dismissals as are common to be reasonable. But, well do I recall having to deal with Marxists convinced they had the grasp on the scientific view of the world . . . only the collapse of the ideological system sufficed to show them otherwise. KF PS: Haldane's note as cited is enough force in and of itself to avoid red herring side tracks and the like and reckon with it, in light of further materials (here just a 101) that can start with say Reppert:
. . . let us suppose that brain state A, which is token identical to the thought that all men are mortal, and brain state B, which is token identical to the thought that Socrates is a man, together cause the belief that Socrates is mortal. It isn’t enough for rational inference that these events be those beliefs, it is also necessary that the causal transaction be in virtue of the content of those thoughts . . . [[But] if naturalism is true, then the propositional content is irrelevant to the causal transaction that produces the conclusion, and [[so] we do not have a case of rational inference. In rational inference, as Lewis puts it, one thought causes another thought not by being, but by being seen to be, the ground for it. But causal transactions in the brain occur in virtue of the brain’s being in a particular type of state that is relevant to physical causal transactions.
kairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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HeKS @ 150: I responded to what you are saying here: https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/thanks-for-the-csi-debate-back-to-work-for-me/Barry Arrington
March 24, 2015
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AS
Religious evidence isn’t like that, though.
Ok, you didn't want to address my question so I'll try another ... what kind of research on religious evidence have you done?Silver Asiatic
March 24, 2015
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AS
If it’s the same God, why are Muslims, Jews and Christians fighting each other?
If the physical universe is the same for everyone, why do scientists disagree among themselves in what they find in it?Silver Asiatic
March 24, 2015
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LOL, KF, Have you ever quoted anything else by Haldane? Anyway, beliefs don't have to be true. Few things are as common in the world of humans (and this site is by no means an exception) as false beliefs.Piotr
March 24, 2015
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Frankly Aurelio, I think materialism has an emotional appeal that some people are more susceptible to than others. For those that succumb to that emotional need, evidence is superfluous.Joe
March 24, 2015
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Yes, yes. Who knows what the world's materialists might think if one day it was demonstrated that life was the result of encoded information, recorded by iterative representations inside the cell.Upright BiPed
March 24, 2015
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AS: Evidence and linked argument regarding the reality of God needs to be assessed in light of worldview foundations and comparative difficulties. In that context, to blanket-dismiss the experience of millions across the world and across the ages of life-transforming encounter with the living God, is tantamount to implying general delusion of the human mind. This leads straight to self-referential incoherence. I suggest, you may find it relevant to contrast the chain and the rope. KF PS: I point out that evolutionary materialism credibly does entail general delusion by way of self-referential incoherence, e.g. as the well known evolutionary theorist Haldane noted:
"It seems to me immensely unlikely that mind is a mere by-product of matter. For if my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true. They may be sound chemically, but that does not make them sound logically. And hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms. In order to escape from this necessity of sawing away the branch on which I am sitting, so to speak, I am compelled to believe that mind is not wholly conditioned by matter.” ["When I am dead," in Possible Worlds: And Other Essays [1927], Chatto and Windus: London, 1932, reprint, p.209.]
kairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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#161 Box, So what? He's very probably right (give or take a small margin of error). I wasn't, however, asking about Larry Moran's opinion on the existence of junk DNA, but about arguments allegedly used by him. According to Dr JDD, Larry "implicitly" argues that
[T]here MUST be junk DNA otherwises the neutral theory of evolution is not true.
I don't believe Larry has ever said anything that could be construed in this way, hence my request for Dr JDD to provide a reference.Piotr
March 24, 2015
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HeKS: Pardon, on the side-bar issue, I was pointing out that WmAD's context of usage embraces the Wicken wiring diagram specific functional organisation view of "complexity." So, no reading of "specified complexity" should be entertained that does not connect closely to this. Indeed, I would argue on the p. 144 definition: a: the sense of plausibly highly improbable that is in view is that b: precisely because the specificity-complexity nexus puts one in configs E within deeply isolated zones T in a wider field of possibilities W, where c: T requires in Dembski's terms at least 500 bits of descriptive complexity (i.e. a structured chain of Y/N q's to specify states E in T will run to that sort of length . . . along the lines of Kolmogorov's complexity metric), then d: it becomes maximally implausible ["improbable"] for a blind, needle in haystack search of W to find any cases E from T. e: Indeed, it may be further pointed out [this is now me i/l/o a discussion involving EL & May et al, on contributions from VJT and Giem also] that f: for 500 - 1,000 bits, taking the Sol system's ~ 10^57 atoms or the observed cosmos' ~ 10^80 atoms, and setting each up as an observer that inspects a string of 500 or 1,000 coins (to make "bits" concrete) that have been newly flipped respectively every 10^-14 s, g: we can readily see that the number of possible inspected states . . . let's take the 1,000 coins as OOL is particularly in view . . . the 10^111 observations of configs in 10^17 s (BB timeline) are an exceedingly small fraction of the 10^301 possibilities. h: Indeed, if we were to set 10^111 as the size of a straw, the cubical haystack would dwarf the observed cosmos, i.e. i: we could not reasonably expect to find even a universe full of needles on such a relatively tiny possible scope of search. And so j: as it is reasonable to see that any Wicken wiring diagram configuration that gives an exploded, connected view of correct, properly oriented components that must be correctly arranged and coupled to achieve function can be suitably reduced to an equivalent structured string of Y/N q's, then k: discussion on strings is WLOG, i.e. the utter improbability of blind chance + necessity search success in the coin model extends directly to the Wicken wiring diagram FSCO/I case. That is, again, l: the improbability summary view and the functionally specific organisation views of "complexity" are inextricably mutually linked. Therefore, m: the now common attempt to project question-begging circularity unto the specificity-complexity criterion (which we saw in recent threads here at UD) is rooted in a distortion that results in a strawman caricature. I trust this will help. On the main topic for this thread, I think 1: the issue of strawmannish caricatures of a case, and of 2: broader issues such as the problem of not just bias but the ideologised, closed mind and 3: the linked problem of using red herrings led away to such strawman caricatures soaked in ad hominems and rhetorically set alight to confuse, poison, cloud and polarise the atmosphere for discussion, brings out 4: the wisdom in the well established distinction between [A] WARRANT, on evidence and linked logical reasoning that properly grounds a case, vs [B] PERSUASION that induces a particular person or group to accept that the case is warranted. 5: Where, evidence is a component of A, and must compete with many influences -- some of them utterly fallacious -- for B. So, 6: in understanding EVIDENCE, per AmHD cf 8 above:
"a. A thing or set of things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment: The broken window was evidence that a burglary had taken place. Scientists weighed the evidence for and against the hypothesis. b. Something indicative; an indication or set of indications: saw no evidence of grief on the mourner’s face"
. . . we must realise that evidence e1, e2, e3 . . . en may well support or even warrant a conclusion C1, but other factors may well lead a particular individual or group to reject C1 and cling instead to C2. Where also 7: Each ei contributes something to the warrant and may do so without being decisive standing by itself. Indeed, 8: we must recall that unlike a deductive chain of argument that is no stronger than its weakest link, a cumulative case may be much more like a rope. That is 9: short, seemingly weak strands when twisted together gain length and strength through their complex interaction, and strands may be braided or counter-twisted to form a stable, long, strong rope that can bear the weight we need it to carry. 10: So, to dismiss e1, e2, e3 . . . en separately as "weak" or unpersuasive may miss the cumulative force they collectively impose as they interact. Of course, if we are up against the fallacy of the ideologised, closed mind, only utter collapse of the ideological system may have persuasive effect. As, happened with Marxism. KF PS: As policy, I will not try to get into debates at sites where abusive commenters are common and especially where -- under false colours of free expression -- they are allowed or even encouraged to get away with slander, abuse etc. UD is plainly sufficient. I doubly apologise for a potential side-track, and for not having time just now to mount a separate thread.kairosfocus
March 24, 2015
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Piotr, Larry Moran still holds that more than 90% of the human genome is junk.Box
March 24, 2015
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HEKs: In the theism vs. atheism debate in particular, the claim that “there’s no evidence for God’s existence” is a sound bite – a bit of useful propaganda to reinforce the false notion that atheism is based on facts and evidence while belief in God is based on blind faith. And that is precisely why many atheists are so unwilling to correct the way they frame the discussion and say instead that they are simply “unconvinced by the evidence for God’s existence.” AS: I’ve not heard atheists talk about “debate-framing” in this way. Perhaps I don’t spend enough time in huddles with fellow atheists. On God’s existence, I’m quite happy for people to believe in the deity of their choice but I reject that it gives them authority to infringe the rights of others. On the other hand, what evidence for gods is there, other than testimony? Give me an example of evidence for either a particular god or gods in general that is more than someone’s story.
:|Upright BiPed
March 24, 2015
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On God’s existence, I’m quite happy for people to believe in the deity of their choice but I reject that it gives them authority to infringe the rights of others.
Unguided evolution doesn't have any hypotheses to test.
On God’s existence, I’m quite happy for people to believe in the deity of their choice but I reject that it gives them authority to infringe the rights of others.
What rights? If you are correct then there aren't any.Joe
March 24, 2015
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HeKS:
The form of Barry’s statement was: If person A claims data isn’t evidence for reason X, they are intellectually lazy at best, and dishonest at worst. You’ve responded by saying: No, Barry, you’re wrong, because if person A claims data isn’t evidence for reason Y, they aren’t intellectually lazy or dishonest, though they may be wrong.
You're misrepresenting my argument. I meant what I wrote:
If person A says that something is evidence for P, and person B, after due consideration, decides that it doesn’t satisfy the definition above, then person B is being neither dishonest nor lazy in saying that it isn’t evidence.
It should be obvious. Person B is not being lazy, because he or she gave due consideration to the demonstration being offered. Person B is also not being dishonest, because he or she truly believes that the definition is not being satisfied, and that what person A is adducing is not evidence. Therefore Barry's statement is false:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
tabasco
March 24, 2015
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#132 Dr JDD
Finally, you should read your experts more on this – Lardy [sic] Moran has implicitly stated that there MUST be junk DNA otherwises the neutral theory of evolution is not true.
Where does he "implicitly state" that? Care to provide a relevant quotation?Piotr
March 24, 2015
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tabasco @154
And if person A fails to offer such a demonstration, or offers a demonstration that person B, after due consideration, considers to be faulty, then person B is not being “lazy” or “dishonest” by saying that what person A is citing is “not evidence”.
Barry’s statement is therefore false:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
No, you haven't demonstrated Barry's statement to be false. You've simply changed his conditional statement and substituted some alternate reason for why someone might reject the claim that some data is evidence in support of a particular proposition. Sure, someone might decide that there isn't any kind of reasonable connection between a proposition and some data that has been cited in support of it, such that no reasonable person would consider the proposition more probable on the data than in its absence (as in the case you offered in #3), and therefore decide the data doesn't actually constitute evidence at all. However, that would be a different scenario than the one Barry presented. The form of Barry's statement was: If person A claims data isn't evidence for reason X, they are intellectually lazy at best, and dishonest at worst. You've responded by saying: No, Barry, you're wrong, because if person A claims data isn't evidence for reason Y, they aren't intellectually lazy or dishonest, though they may be wrong. You aren't responding to what Barry said. You're just changing the terms of the discussion.HeKS
March 24, 2015
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HeKS:
I’m trying to understand your attempted rebuttal here. Did you happen to notice that Barry gives more than one option, ranging from “intellectually lazy” to “dishonest”.
I did. Did you happen to notice that I responded to both? Evidently not.
You respond by saying it doesn’t necessarily mean the person is dishonest, but unless I missed it I didn’t see an explanation for why it would not necessarily mean that person was at least intellectually lazy.
You missed it. In #118, I wrote:'
And if person A fails to offer such a demonstration, or offers a demonstration that person B, after due consideration, considers to be faulty, then person B is not being “lazy” or “dishonest” by saying that what person A is citing is “not evidence”.
Barry's statement is therefore false:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
tabasco
March 24, 2015
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HeKS asks:
Hey KF, Who is “they” and where have they done this?
Why, the evomat Alinskyite cabal, of course. Plato warned us about them 2350 years ago. They strawmannise Dembski's argument, and by repeating their drumbeat talking points they soak it in oil of ad hominem and set it alight to cloud, poison, confuse and polarise the atmosphere. Also, the sky is falling.tabasco
March 24, 2015
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StephenB, Why all the squirming? You made a claim:
Barry’s example, which is consistent with your definition, refutes your claim.
Here is Barry’s example:
Tabasco, read Dr JDD’s comment. Now apply your own definition of evidence. The universe had a beginning. One logical possibility to explain that fact is that God created the universe. Only that which exists has the capacity to create. Therefore the fact that the universe began to exist is evidence that God exists.
That example doesn't contradict any claim I've made here, as you know. That is why you can't come up with one. The one you did quote isn't refuted by Barry's example:
Why is this thread dragging on when Barry’s error was already pointed out in comment #3?
tabasco
March 24, 2015
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tabasco @145
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
He’s wrong about that. She can honestly claim that something is not evidence even if she happens to be wrong about
I'm trying to understand your attempted rebuttal here. Did you happen to notice that Barry gives more than one option, ranging from "intellectually lazy" to "dishonest". You respond by saying it doesn't necessarily mean the person is dishonest, but unless I missed it I didn't see an explanation for why it would not necessarily mean that person was at least intellectually lazy. In any case, look again at what Barry said:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
If someone is presented with data that, on a reasonable interpretation, is consistent with and suggestive of a particular conclusion but that person claims that the data doesn't count as evidence because they don't find the data suggestive enough to compel their belief (or simply because there's some other logically possible explanation for the data), then Barry is correct in saying that they would be intellectually lazy at best. Saying that one is unconvinced by the evidence for some proposition is completely different from claiming that no evidence for the proposition exists at all. In the theism vs. atheism debate in particular, the claim that "there's no evidence for God's existence" is a sound bite - a bit of useful propaganda to reinforce the false notion that atheism is based on facts and evidence while belief in God is based on blind faith. And that is precisely why many atheists are so unwilling to correct the way they frame the discussion and say instead that they are simply "unconvinced by the evidence for God's existence." To do so would be to give up the rhetorical advantage derived from the widespread illusion that the debate over God's existence is one of evidence versus faith and to admit instead that it is one based on competing interpretations of the available evidence. The No-God-ISM side of the debate does not actually want to get into a battle over the plausibility of competing interpretations of the same evidence when they can score more points by simply insisting that the other side is out to lunch.HeKS
March 23, 2015
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@KF #131
HeKS: Pardon, but they have twisted WmAD’s actual statements into pretzels, erecting a gross strawman caricature.
Hey KF, Who is "they" and where have they done this? Are you talking about the discussion I've been having over at TSZ? I'm trying to figure out what specific claims you're responding to. When it comes to Dembski's CSI, as I've stated a few times here and elsewhere, my understanding comes from my discussions with Winston Ewert. I certainly don't in any way deny that Dembski is concerned with biology or that he explains the concept of specificity as your quotes indicate. However, what I've been talking about over at TSZ is rather the issue of "complexity" and the fact that pro-ID commenters here, when using the term "complex specified information" (or some form of it) are often using the term "complex" in its more common meaning of "many well-matched parts", referring to an observable feature of a system rather than a probability calculation. As such, they may occasionally make statements that would seem to be circular to someone who misunderstands them to be using the term in precisely the way Dembski does as regards the issue of "complexity". If by "complex specified information" one means "highly improbable specified information", then a claim that the presence of "complex specified information" in some system makes it improbable on evolutionary mechanisms would indeed be circular. It would be saying, "the highly improbable specified information in this system makes it highly improbable". On the other hand, to claim that the presence of a multi-part system containing functionally specified information suggests it is improbable on evolutionary mechanisms is not to make a circular argument. It is a claim that represents a person's conclusions based on their understanding of the evidence and what they believe that evidence indicates with respect to the ability of evolutionary mechanisms to build information-rich multi-part functional systems. As a claim, it would require supporting argumentation and presentation of evidence, but it's not circular. That is what the conversation at TSZ has been about. Do you disagree with something I'm saying there? HeKSHeKS
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