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A Final Word on “Evidence”

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In several posts last month Dr. Torley and I led a spirited discussion on the nature of “evidence.” See here, here, here and here. Those discussions revealed there is a lot of confusion about this topic. This is especially the case when it comes to the purpose of evidence. Many of our materialist friends seem to believe that unless evidence compels belief it does not count as evidence at all. Worse, they seem to believe that merely by advancing an alternative explanation for some proposition, they have caused all of the evidence for the explanation advanced by their opponents to magically turn into non-evidence.  This is simply not the case.

Let’s go back to the dictionary. Evidence is “the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.”

The critical word there is “indicating.” To be evidence a fact need merely indicate that a proposition is true. It need not compel belief in the proposition. As I stated in one of my posts, a jury trial is a good example of this. In every jury trial both sides submit evidence to the jury. But in every jury trial only one side wins. Does that mean the losing side’s evidence was not evidence because the jury did not believe it? Of course not. Again, evidence “indicates.” It does not compel.

Consider Dr. Torley’s example of the evidence for the alleged levitations of St. Joseph of Cupertino in the 1600s. Dr. Torley states:

The records show at least 150 sworn depositions of witnesses of high credentials: cardinals, bishops, surgeons, craftsmen, princes and princesses who personally lived by his word, popes, inquisitors, and countless variety of ordinary citizens and pilgrims. There are letters, diaries and biographies written by his superiors while living with him. Arcangelo di Rosmi recorded 70 incidents of levitation

I had never heard of St. Joseph of Cupertino prior to reading about him in Dr. Torley’s post. I did a little investigation and found out he was a real person and in fact to this day he is the patron saint of air travelers, aviators, astronauts, test takers and poor students.

Frankly, however, I remain incredulous about the reports of levitation. Does that mean I believe Dr. Torley failed to adduce any evidence at all that St. Joseph could levitate? Of course not. All of those reports to which Dr. Torley alluded indicate that belief in the proposition that St. Joseph could fly is valid.  Again, the key word is “indicate.”  To indicate means to point to a possibility.  Sure, there may be other possibilities (for example, the reports might be false).  An indication does not compel belief. It merely supports it. And that is what evidence does; its supports belief.  And that is the case even if that belief turns out to be false.  When a jury is presented with conflicting evidence they weigh all of the evidence and do their best to come to a reasonable conclusion.  If they reject evidence, that does not mean it was not evidence.  It means they found the evidence unpersuasive.

Thus, when I say I am disinclined to believe that St. Joseph could fly, I am not saying there is no evidence he could fly. Of course there is. I am merely saying I am not inclined to believe the evidence.  There is a huge epistemic difference between “there is no evidence” and “I personally find the evidence unpersuasive.”

Some of our atheist friends, on the other hand, seem to think that the word “evidence” means “that which I personally find persuasive.” As astounding at it may seem, they actually believe that if they personally find evidence to be non-persuasive they are justified in claiming it is not evidence in the first place. And of course that is just plain stupid. They are entitled to their own evaluation of the evidence. They are not entitled to change the meaning of words to suit their argument.

A word of advice to our atheist interlocutors. You are entitled logically to say to a theist, “In my judgment your evidence is unpersuasive.” But you cannot logically say “I have defined your evidence as non-evidence merely because I found it unpersuasive.”

Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.

Why am I belaboring this point? Because I hope our arguments with atheists on this site will be challenging and interesting. And responding to stupid arguments like “there is absolutely no evidence for the existence of God” is tedious and boring.

Comments
SB: It is your claim that Barry is wrong in the OP and that your definition differs from it. Evidence does not have to be persuasive to be evidence. We have made that case over and over again. tabasco
I asked you for a quote:
Here is one of many:
Why is this thread dragging on when Barry’s error was already pointed out in comment #3?
Obviously, I am challenging that claim. I am saying that the error is yours. The OP says correctly that evidence does not have to be persuasive to count as evidence? If you agree, then please say so; if not, then please make your case.StephenB
March 23, 2015
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StephenB, I asked you for a quote:
What claim of mine does that refute? Provide a quote, please.
tabasco
March 23, 2015
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tabasco
What claim of mine does that refute? Provide a quote, please.
It is your claim that Barry is wrong in the OP and that your definition differs from it. Evidence does not have to be persuasive to be evidence. We have made that case over and over again.StephenB
March 23, 2015
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StephenB:
Barry’s example, which is consistent with your definition, refutes your claim.
Here is Barry's example:
Tabasco, read Dr JDD’s comment. Now apply your own definition of evidence. The universe had a beginning. One logical possibility to explain that fact is that God created the universe. Only that which exists has the capacity to create. Therefore the fact that the universe began to exist is evidence that God exists.
What claim of mine does that refute? Provide a quote, please.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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StephenB,
Irrelevant. If she is, in fact, wrong, then her honesty or lack of it has no bearing on that fact.
Of course. But Barry says she is lazy or dishonest:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
He's wrong about that. She can honestly claim that something is not evidence even if she happens to be wrong about, just as you can honestly claim that the Christian God exists even if you are wrong about it.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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tabasco
No, because being wrong is not the same thing as being dishonest.
Irrelevant. If she is, in fact, wrong, then her honesty or lack of it has no bearing on that fact.
She might be wrong, but she is not being dishonest.
If she is wrong in her claim (that it is not evidence) then the reverse is true (it is evidence). That should be obvious.
Barry has already agreed with my definition:
Apparently, you do not understand the difference between a definition and an example. We are not discussing your definition. Barry's example, which is consistent with your definition, refutes your claim. You are evading it. I am asking you to address it.StephenB
March 23, 2015
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wd400:
That’s one reason the HUGO guessed 100,000 genes when several evolutionary biologists go it about right at 20,000–40,000…
Given that the number of proteins is greater than 40,000, the gene concept needs to be rewritten.Joe
March 23, 2015
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It’s important that scientific claims be justified,
That contradicts what you said.
but it would be idiotic to justify them every single time they were stated.
I never made that claim.
I’m glad you agree. Barry doesn’t.
The OP says otherwise. Can you read?Joe
March 23, 2015
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What's the point of mentioning the ENCODE 80% number then, which is perfectly compatable with most (and even 95%) of the genome being junk? You are right that most molecular biologists don't know the good arguments for junk DNA,though. That's one reason the HUGO guessed 100,000 genes when several evolutionary biologists go it about right at 20,000--40,000...wd400
March 23, 2015
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wd400 - of course I don't believe the two are the same. I never claimed they were. I was merely saying it is a piece of evidence that can support (and instigate further investigation) the notion that more than 5% of the genome is functional. Read what I wrote in the entire context of my comparison. besides, most scientists who aren't evolutionary biologists or hardcore atheists in my experience are quite open to and interested in the idea of a large proportion of the genome serving a useful function.Dr JDD
March 23, 2015
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KF, to HeKS:
Pardon, but they have twisted WmAD’s actual statements into pretzels, erecting a gross strawman caricature.
KF, why don't you heed HeKS's call to arms and join the discussion at TSZ? We'd love to have you.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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tabasco:
Nothing would ever get done if we had to justify every statement we make, every time we made it.
Joe:
That’s absurd as science requires that one supports/ justifies what one claims and science makes progress.
Come on, Joe. It's important that scientific claims be justified, but it would be idiotic to justify them every single time they were stated. tabasco:
If person A says that something is evidence for P, and person B, after due consideration, decides that it doesn’t satisfy the definition above, then person B is being neither dishonest nor lazy in saying that it isn’t evidence.
Joe:
True, once one makes a case that it isn’t evidence then one isn’t being lazy as one has done the due diligence one needs to do.
I'm glad you agree. Barry doesn't.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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Box, If we use the term "Darwinist" in it's sceintific sense (those who favour evolutionary theories that emphasise natural selection), then "Darwinist" were in fact largely opposed to the idea of junk DNA when it was first put forward. On the other hand, people around here normally take "darwinism" to mean modern evolutionary biology. Junk DNA makes a lot of sense in modern evolutionary biology, and the best evidence still points to most of the human genome being junk. JDD, Lol. Do you seriously think being subject to biological activity is the same as having a biological function? Or that ENCODE proves the earlier claim that 95% of the geonome was "leftover" wrong? I'll give you a clue on the latter. To swallow the ENCODE press release whole (as so many here have...) you've have to accept every base of every intron is functional (!), but we've known for a long time that this adds up to much more than 5% of the genome.wd400
March 23, 2015
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StephenB:
Evidence does not have to be persuasive to be evidence.
Barry has already agreed with my definition:
Something counts as evidence for a proposition P to the extent that it supports the truth of P.
tabasco:
A person who believes that E is not evidence for P is being honest when she states that E is not evidence for P. She might be wrong, but she is not being dishonest.
StephenB:
Like evolve, you contradict yourself at every turn. If she is “wrong” to believe that it is “not” evidence, then it is evidence by virtue of the fact that she is wrong. Your comment refutes itself.
No, because being wrong is not the same thing as being dishonest. Think, Stephen.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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I apologise to Barry and others for turning this thread unintentionally into a debate into junk DNA. that was far from the point. A people can see, evolutionists disagree on the "sense" of junk DNA with regards to evolution. Some say it is necessary and makes sense, others say it is costly and makes no sense. This is not the point. The point is about what is used as evidence or not and how there is often the narrative is simply changed so that the evidence always fits regardless. That is all - junk DNA was just an example specifically with Dawkins who changed his narrative. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. What matters is when the observation was "A" Dawkins said it is evidence for evolution and is what evolution would predict. When that observation changed to "B" instead of saying I was wrong, he says that is what we would expect and predict. As already said, heads I win tails you lose. That is how these leading evolutionists view their evidence - whatever the observation is it fits their theory.Dr JDD
March 23, 2015
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"It’s undeniable that the human genome appears to contain large amounts of DNA that have no apparent benefit to the organism." Yes. It's also (as Dawkins himself states) undeniable that organisms/cells/life has the appearance of having been designed. The difference is on statement one you go with the appearance and statement 2 you don't. I know you will say "we have other evidence to the contrary" for 1 but we also do for 2 - the ENCODE project showed biological activity for up to 80% of the genome. Yet all the evo's threw their toys out of the pram when that was stated as they realised the negative implications for evolution. Yet still you and other commentators on this site seem to not see the issue with a Large proportion of the genome being functional. "biological activity doesn't mean function" and all that malarkey.Dr JDD
March 23, 2015
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AS: It’s undeniable that the human genome appears to contain large amounts of DNA that have no apparent benefit to the organism.
So now it's undeniable. Okay, then why are you in high praise of Liddle for saying that lots of random junk doesn't make sense: "And it doesn’t flow from Darwinian theory (it’s not, for instance, the prediction that because mutations are random, there will be lots of random junk around, which wouldn’t make a lot of sense, because if it was costly for organisms to maintain “junk”, then it would be rapidly filtered out)."Box
March 23, 2015
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AS @#122: You have missed my point completely. My discussion is not around whether junk DNA serves any purpose or not nor how much of it is junk or not. My point is the dirty little tricks the authoritative figures that drive forward evolution use. You can quibble over my use of "et al" to try and convince yourself you were not wrong to question my statement that Dawkins made such a claim but the point remains - Dawkins AND many others made strong inferences that 95% of the genome was leftover from evolution and therefore evidence for evolution. Then instead of admitting their mistake, they claim the new evidence is what evolution would have predicted all along. That is my point, not a debate about junk DNA. Which is the point about how people use evidence wrongly and intrpret any evidence according to their own model, rather than where it "leads". Or at lst accepting they were wrong. Further, the function we are now uncovering for the other DNA (non coding) was as you say hypothesised to be "space" - to fit in with the evolutionary theory more. What we actually see are complex gene regulatory RNA coding molecules and other similar functions that must have evolved as well as protein coding genes if (and alongside them likely) if that narrative is true. Conversely, ,the design theorist would claim these were designed alongside. In addition your 8% functionality of the genome you state is based on work done by comparing homology. Therefore if something does not share homology in the genome to other genomes it is not included in that 8% essentially. That is a biase and fundamentally flawed analysis of what is "functional" as it assumes that DNA lacking homology must not have function - again, pandering to the evolutionary model alone which excludes any finding that could raise questions with this model. Finally, you should read your experts more on this - Lardy Moran has implicitly stated that there MUST be junk DNA otherwises the neutral theory of evolution is not true. A most appear to accept that theory (apparently) this is one of several reasons why if most of the genome is functional it is a huge blow to the evolutionary narrative of UCD.Dr JDD
March 23, 2015
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HeKS: Pardon, but they have twisted WmAD's actual statements into pretzels, erecting a gross strawman caricature. Here he is in NFL, 2002 (as I have recently extended at IOSE) -- surely, long enough ago in easily accessible black and white to carry out duties of care to accuracy, fairness and seeking to understand what you are intending to critique:
p. 148:“The great myth of contemporary evolutionary biology is that the information needed to explain complex biological structures can be purchased without intelligence. My aim throughout this book is to dispel that myth . . . . Eigen and his colleagues must have something else in mind besides information simpliciter when they describe the origin of information as the central problem of biology. I submit that what they have in mind is specified complexity [[cf. here below (--> NB: clips from Orgel 1973 and Wicken 1979, the Orgel one now considerably extended relative to what is commonly seen)], or what equivalently we have been calling in this Chapter Complex Specified information or CSI . . . . Biological specification always refers to function. An organism is a functional system comprising many functional subsystems. . . . In virtue of their function [[a living organism's subsystems] embody patterns that are objectively given and can be identified independently of the systems that embody them. Hence these systems are specified in the sense required by the complexity-specificity criterion . . . the specification can be cashed out in any number of ways [[through observing the requisites of functional organisation within the cell, or in organs and tissues or at the level of the organism as a whole. Dembski cites: Wouters, p. 148: "globally in terms of the viability of whole organisms," Behe, p. 148: "minimal function of biochemical systems," Dawkins, pp. 148 - 9: "Complicated things have some quality, specifiable in advance, that is highly unlikely to have been acquired by ran-| dom chance alone. In the case of living things, the quality that is specified in advance is . . . the ability to propagate genes in reproduction." On p. 149, he roughly cites Orgel's famous remark from 1973, which exactly cited reads:
In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity . . .
And, p. 149, he highlights Paul Davis in The Fifth Miracle: "Living organisms are mysterious not for their complexity per se, but for their tightly specified complexity."] . . .” p. 144: [[Specified complexity can be more formally defined:] “. . . since a universal probability bound of 1 [[chance] in 10^150 corresponds to a universal complexity bound of 500 bits of information, [[the cluster] (T, E) constitutes CSI because T [[ effectively the target hot zone in the field of possibilities] subsumes E [[ effectively the observed event from that field], T is detachable from E, and and T measures at least 500 bits of information . . . ”
First, Dembski is deeply concerned about biological cases though he in effect abstracts to an informational configuration space and a definable target zone in it that swamps sol sys or cosmos level blind needle in haystack search resources. Inherently, the specific, functional, complex organisation in biological systems is based on wiring diagram arrangements of parts that fit, couple and work together. Something that as Orgel pointed out can be reduced to information by a string of structured y/n q's constituting a string in a description language. This connects to Kolmogotov. So the FSCO/I view is directly connected to Dembski in NFL as well as to Orgel and Wicken. And, connecting to this thread, surely, the extended statement by Dembski in a well known book constitutes evidence of what he meant, whether or no one may agree with him. There is no excuse for insistently twisting and caricaturing to dismiss. KFkairosfocus
March 23, 2015
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tabasco:
Nothing would ever get done if we had to justify every statement we make, every time we made it.
That's absurd as science requires that one supports/ justifies what one claims and science makes progress.
If person A says that something is evidence for P, and person B, after due consideration, decides that it doesn’t satisfy the definition above, then person B is being neither dishonest nor lazy in saying that it isn’t evidence.
True, once one makes a case that it isn't evidence then one isn't being lazy as one has done the due diligence one needs to do.Joe
March 23, 2015
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AS: And it doesn’t flow from Darwinian theory (it’s not, for instance, the prediction that because mutations are random, there will be lots of random junk around, which wouldn’t make a lot of sense, because if it was costly for organisms to maintain “junk”, then it would be rapidly filtered out).
So the concept of junk-DNA never did make any sense according to Darwinian theory?Box
March 23, 2015
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tabasco
Barry, Your #63 is an attempt to change the subject away from the failed thesis of your OP. I’m smart enough not to take the bait.
Evidence does not have to be persuasive to be evidence. Barry's example makes the point obvious. Having been refuted, you simply avoid addressing the example.
A person who believes that E is not evidence for P is being honest when she states that E is not evidence for P. She might be wrong, but she is not being dishonest.
Like evolve, you contradict yourself at every turn. If she is "wrong" to believe that it is "not" evidence, then it is evidence by virtue of the fact that she is wrong. Your comment refutes itself.StephenB
March 23, 2015
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Box,
So an OOL researcher A shows Joe how life forms from simple molecules. It is a perfect demonstration: a little bit of this and that and life forms within 10 minutes. Joe, after due consideration, considers it to be faulty (because “water molecules are designed”), then Joe is not being “lazy” or “dishonest” by saying that what person A is showing is “not evidence”.
If Joe really made an effort to determine the truth, and if he actually believes that the OOL researcher's argument is faulty, then no, he is not being lazy or dishonest. He's just wrong.
IOW, thanks to Joe, the OOL researcher has absolutely no evidence whatsoever – zilch – to back up his claim that life can arise by natural processes?
No. In your scenario, the OOL researcher has plenty of evidence. It's just that Joe doesn't believe that it is evidence. Think about this carefully: it is possible for person A to say "this is evidence for P", and for person B to say "that's not evidence", with neither person being lazy or dishonest. One of them must be wrong, but you can be wrong without being lazy or dishonest.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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Joe,
You have to show why. Just saying it ain’t evidence for X is lazy.
That's absurd. Nothing would ever get done if we had to justify every statement we make, every time we made it. Barry agreed with my definition:
Something counts as evidence for a proposition P to the extent that it supports the truth of P.
If person A says that something is evidence for P, and person B, after due consideration, decides that it doesn't satisfy the definition above, then person B is being neither dishonest nor lazy in saying that it isn't evidence. Barry knows this, which is why he's trying to change the subject.tabasco
March 23, 2015
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Tabasco: And if person A fails to offer such a demonstration, or offers a demonstration that person B, after due consideration, considers to be faulty, then person B is not being “lazy” or “dishonest” by saying that what person A is citing is “not evidence”.
So an OOL researcher A shows Joe how life forms from simple molecules. It is a perfect demonstration: a little bit of this and that and life forms within 10 minutes. Joe, after due consideration, considers it to be faulty (because "water molecules are designed"), then Joe is not being “lazy” or “dishonest” by saying that what person A is showing is “not evidence”. IOW, thanks to Joe, the OOL researcher has absolutely no evidence whatsoever - zilch - to back up his claim that life can arise by natural processes?Box
March 23, 2015
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The DA presents evidence and makes a positive case against the defendant. tabasco, the lawyer for the defence, stands up as says "we don't find that persuasive and neither should you, so we rest". How many defendants would get set free using that tactic?Joe
March 23, 2015
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You have to show why. Just saying it ain't evidence for X is lazy. Hitchens applies.Joe
March 23, 2015
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Joe, And if person A fails to offer such a demonstration, or offers a demonstration that person B, after due consideration, considers to be faulty, then person B is not being "lazy" or "dishonest" by saying that what person A is citing is "not evidence". A person who believes that E is not evidence for P is being honest when she states that E is not evidence for P. She might be wrong, but she is not being dishonest. Barry's statement is incorrect:
Claiming evidence does not exist because you don’t find it persuasive is at best intellectually lazy; at worst it is dishonest.
tabasco
March 23, 2015
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As my example shows, to say that something isn’t evidence is the correct response if you believe that it doesn’t satisfy the definition.
One person has the responsibility to demonstrate how it is evidence for that claim and the other has to do more than handwave it away. Hitchens applies in all cases.Joe
March 23, 2015
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Barry, Your #63 is an attempt to change the subject away from the failed thesis of your OP. I'm smart enough not to take the bait. My #111 shows why your thesis fails. Do you have an actual counterargument? Hint: "tabasco, you are an idiot" is not a counterargument. Neither is "You are beyond reason" or "All you have is mulish obstinacy".tabasco
March 23, 2015
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