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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
Gregory: With all due respect, dismissive talking points and words do not change the issues on the ground and do not undermine how the case of Mr Garvey's stones illustrated -- live -- how we can do a design inference on the FSCO/I concept. All you have managed to show is that regardless of evidence to the contrary, you are plainly locked into dismissing -- for whatever reasons -- the idea that the FSCO/I in living systems could have come about by design. I therefore invite onlookers to see for themselves the force of WJM's basic point, that we are dealing with selective hyperskepticism here that will not acknowledge anything that could threaten to undermine a fixed view that is held for reasons other than evidence and reason. Let us reduce it to a simple test: is there a discernible difference that points to divergent cause between a pile of rocks and a battleship made from the ore in those sorts of rocks? If not, why not? And, if there is a difference why is it that any attempt to quantify such is being so sharply dismissed, even when there is evidence in front of us that it is at minimum on the road to success? KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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LT, re:
I ask that you tell me more about the observations we have of design causing FSCO/I in living organisms.
First, as a side note, are you aware of modern genetic engineering by Venter et al? Design of organisms by intelligent agents manipulating genetic information is a fact. We have even had the case of putting in a whole genome. In short, there is no good reason to doubt the feasibility of the proposed cause for the FSCO/I in the context of living systems, as we routinely see the same cause producing the same effect in ever so many other contexts also, and even as we have good analytic reasons to recognise that it is highly implausible for blind chance and mechanical necessity to originate FSCO/I, especially where it involves codes, data structures, algorithms and associated clusters of effecting machines. Next, my understanding is that you have an advanced education with significant exposure to philosophical matters and some understanding of science. That is important to note, as what you have put down is so revealing as a sign of what has gone wrong with how educated people have been conditioned to think in our civilisation. Therefore, while I have less time than it deserves, I will comment on this point briefly. From about the C18 on, science has had a focus on origins and the deep past that has not been directly observed, i.e for 200+ years. Similarly -- and this is in fact a highly instructive and historically influential context for the development of science to try to address such questions -- when court rooms have to consider cases on circumstantial evidence, they have to credibly reconstruct an unobserved past to determine if some events, say a death or a fire, were caused by design rather than accident of natural circumstances. This, in a momentous context. The logic used in both cases boils down to inference to best, most responsible [and inevitably in principle provisional, though in praxis in many cases morally certain] explanation on traces that credibly come from the actual past, interpreted in light of an understanding of causes, effects and reliable signs. In short, with all due respect, you are falling into the trap of selective hyperskepticism, and are disregarding 200+ years of sound development of methods, once the results do not go where you want to go. We have abundant experience and observation of the only known sufficient cause of FSCO/I: design. FSCO/I is a well tested -- billions of cases -- and highly characteristic, reliable, observable sign of design. As for what design is, you know or should know the summary by Dembski as is cited in the IOSE as just one instance:
. . . (1) A designer conceives a purpose. (2) To accomplish that purpose, the designer forms a plan. (3) To execute the plan, the designer specifies building materials and assembly instructions. (4) Finally, the designer or some surrogate applies the assembly instructions to the building materials. (No Free Lunch, p. xi. HT: ENV.)
Nor is this idiosyncratic or dubious, here is Wikipedia speaking against known ideological interest on this general subject, but compelled by the facts on the ground:
design has been defined as follows. (noun) a specification of an object, manifested by an agent, intended to accomplish goals, in a particular environment, using a set of primitive components, satisfying a set of requirements, subject to constraints; (verb, transitive) to create a design, in an environment (where the designer operates)[2] Another definition for design is a roadmap or a strategic approach for someone to achieve a unique expectation. It defines the specifications, plans, parameters, costs, activities, processes and how and what to do within legal, political, social, environmental, safety and economic constraints in achieving that objective.[3] Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed.
Design is real, it defines a strategy of action by intelligent agents, and it is commonly manifest all around us. As you see from the live case of my analysing Jon Garvey's stones last evening, we can reasonably infer from signs in objects that heir credible cause was design, on circumstantial evidence. The issue then is not really whether such is possible, credible or routinely used in momentous contexts, or even if scientific investigations use it. Just go attend a courtroom in a couple of cases where scientific circumstantial evidence is pivotal. Nope, the obvious underlying issue is to find rhetorical objections to shore up an a priori commitment, the same one long since highlighted by Lewontin in his 1997 NYRB article (and backed up by so many others including leading science and science education bodies):
. . . to put a correct view of the universe into people's heads we must first get an incorrect view out . . . the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting]. . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. [[--> And if someone wants to play at quote-mining accusation talking point games, kindly read down through the longer cite and comments at the just above linked.]
Philip Johnson's response is apt:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
All of that can be elaborated on, but the bottomline is plain. We are dealing with people who in too many cases are evidently not willing to acknowledge that there is a significant and quantifiable difference between a battleship and a pile of rocks, or even of battleship parts for that matter, if their worldview agendas are in the stakes. If someone is locked into that sort of thing or is tempted by it, then to dismiss scientific reasoning by inferring to the best explanation of the past through traces in the present and tested causes and signs that can be compared tot hose traces, is no problem. Until, I guess enough of us stand up and say: NO, that is ridiculously inconsistent reasoning. STOP. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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The best (read: authentic or legitimate) theories of ‘design’ and ‘intelligence’ are those that involve ‘designs’ and ‘designing’ by ‘intelligences’ that we can study here and now, or historically through evidences available of various kinds and types, e.g. typed or written documents, signed contracts, photographs, recordings, sketches, artwork, architecture, archaeology, etc. – all human-made things.
Gregory, each of your examples (documents, photographs, sketchs, recordings, etc) all stem from living systems. As such, they all exemplify a singularly unique, and readily identifiable material condition. This material condition is not demonstrated anywhere else in the physical record of the cosmos -- except at the origin of life on Earth. They are all semiotic, i.e. they all have physicochemically arbitrary relationships instantiated in a material system. Therefore, the distinctions you require in order to rail against ID are decimated by the material evidence. This is why you will (as you must) continue to ignore that evidence.Upright BiPed
January 23, 2013
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‘Design inferences’ are commonly attributed by credible scholars around the world to ‘human-made things,’ even if they don’t choose that same Dembskian grammar. Indeed, human-made things are the proper realm for normal ‘design inferences.’ What is generally and (against the grain at UD) responsibly rejected is the idea that Big-D, i.e. supernatural ‘Design’ should play any role whatsoever in small-n natural sciences. That is the clear and obvious orientation of Big-ID, with its anti-naturalism strategy. One of the gravest problems at UD is revealed by the Gingerich-inspired focus on Big-ID (or upper-case ID), aka ‘Intelligent Design’ (with capital letters) theory, which he and I and Nullasalus and Mike Gene and most other people on the planet reject. There is little problem for most people accepting small-id; indeed, that is the orthodox view of the Abrahamic religions that believe the world is created with a purpose by a Deity who had us (human beings) in Mind/Spirit. Likewise, small-id is the common, even standard view for studying human-made things in roughly 2/3 of academic subjects, though they are often called ‘soft’ or ‘impure’ by hard-core naturalists and natural-physical scientists. It’s not like small-id is outlawed or discriminated against when huge international conferences on small-d design and ‘designing’ take place regularly in various contexts and where many credible scholars are involved. Personally, it doesn’t bother me a lick what TEs say to the contrary because orthodox religious views about the limits of evolutionary theories have already been made clear, that is, aside from neo-evangelical American controversies against real, historical Adam and Eve based on population genetics and genomics. But claiming one can ‘natural scientifically’ ‘detect’ supernatural ‘Design’ (i.e. what Big-ID theory actually proclaims, with the ‘supernatural’ attempted to be hidden for PR purposes) is itself highly problematic. So Big-ID cloaks itself in small-n ‘naturalistic-sounding’ language, trying to be ‘natural science-only,’ when to anyone paying attention, Big-ID is quite obviously a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation first and foremost. Yet it is no surprise that few people at UD will publically admit that. Jon Garvey notes: “the battleship has taken too much careful work to be natural.” Iow, one predominantly doesn’t require ‘natural sciences’ to study the small-d/c/c ‘design/creation/construction’ of battleships (applied or engineering is different than ‘pure natural sciences’). And folks, this is precisely why the Discovery Institute cancelled its 3-yr bid to actively promote Big-ID theory in small-id human-social sciences – it simply doesn’t make sense and has no potential ground to gain. Railing against Darwinism in social sciences and humanities had a decisively negative orientation, rather than offering any positive sense of Big-ID occurrence of quite obviously small-id objects. William J. Murray is simply wrong with his ‘simple argument’ because it quite plainly has *nothing* to do with Big-ID ‘Intelligent Design’ theory. Human beings don’t employ Big-ID ‘Intelligent Design’ processes because they/we are not gods (or Aliens). “I know intelligent design exists – humans employ it.” – William J. Murray Notice the seemingly intentional (or otherwise obscurantist) small-id ‘intelligent design’ language? Of course, human employment of their/our ‘intelligences’ has *nothing* to do with capital ‘Intelligent Design’ theory, the latter which is focussed on natural scientific knowledge or hypotheses dealing with OoL, OoBI or ‘human origins.’ Big-ID proponents, however, seemingly don’t want to respond to this intellectually potent and highly relevant observation about the vastly “limited role of Big-ID theory” in comparison with the fruitful and mainstream role of studying ‘intelligence’ and building, making, constructing, designing, inventing, innovating, creating, etc. as common language in non-Big-ID theory realms. Indeed, there are some in the ‘Big-ID theory Tent’ who continue to believe that ‘everything is designed,’ including horrific and punishable events and offences to human morality and dignity…all because they wish to universalise their natural-science oriented Big-ID theory. In #4, KN wrote: “My chief complaint against design theory, given what I know of it, is that it collapses the organism/artifact distinction.” The same goes for me, though there are other ‘complaints’ I have about Big-ID theory too. Nobody here has given a clear answer suggesting that Big-ID theory supposedly doesn’t collapse organisms and artefacts. In fact, attempted rebuttals to this position have been either baselessly claimed or altogether avoided at UD countless times. KF’s attempted universalisation of FSCO/I is the most direct example – we can observe human (small-d) designers in the designing processes of artefacts, thus thwarting his universalistic FSCO/I claims. Everybody here who has studied the history of the IDM, however, plainly should know that Big-ID, i.e. capitalised ‘Intelligent Design’ was initially promoted by the Father of the IDM, Phillip Johnson, as a Wedge against Naturalism. Timaeus confirms this when referring to the impotence of “blind natural processes” or “blind natural laws and chance” to produce (most) human-made things. But for some personal reason, perhaps based on his training in classical quasi-philosophy and western religious studies, he wants to resist the reality that Big-ID theory is purposefully anti-naturalistic or that it is necessarily super-naturalistic because the Big-I in Big-ID theory = Divine Intelligence and not just some naturally regressed ‘alien’ or human (small-i) intelligence behind Big-D Design. “that’s precisely the point of the design inference — that we can move from object to a designer of the object.” – Timaeus As usual, Timaeus is half-right in applying his rhetorician’s skills. We need not “move from object to a designer’ *in nature* if one seriously considers the theory of ‘more-decorated-than-any-IDist’ Adrian Bejan and his ‘design in nature’ as a topic of flow and construction (cf. Constructal Law). Bejan has no need for a small-d or Big-D ‘designer/Designer’ in his ‘design in nature’ ‘detection.’ But then again, he is not including human-made things in his natural science, except for when he sneaks them in the back door by writing with social scientists about social systems as ‘designed.’ This is a similar kind of attempt being made with the C.S. Lewis program at Discovery Institute, focussing on ‘scientism,’ even as it is all the while still displayed in Big-ID theory’s ‘natural-science-only’ approach. The key here for those who are sympathetic to Big-ID theory theologically or apologetically speaking, yet to be able safely reject Big-ID theory and responsibly accept small-id (iow, orthodox Abrahamic monotheism) is that ‘design without a designer’ makes no sense in the English language. In English, all ‘design/Design’ has a ‘designer/Designer.’ Big-ID is playing the game of univocal predication between God and humanity and should be more open about this, as the Fuller-Meyer exchange in Cambridge shows quite clearly. I’m not a TE and neither is KN. So you folks can take your ‘TEs always do’ and shove it in the eternal fire. That rhetorical trick doesn’t work when non-TEs rip obvious holes in Big-ID theory as an unnecessarily scientistic approach to OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins.’ small-id, though it is often not called that when it is not paying attention to Big-ID theory, is a mainstream and credible view to hold, leaving questions of OoL, OoBI and ‘human origins’ to a combination of science, philosophy and theology/worldview, instead of reducing them to merely natural scientism. Timaeus admits to his “years of frustration in arguments with philosophically dense TEs.” It may, however, take him several years more to possibly elevate his thoughts to actually and honestly face scholars (not just editors of other peoples’ work) who are not TEs and yet who quite responsibly reject Big-ID theory for sound and compelling reasons. Sure, there are admittedly some otherwise intelligent people who promote Big-ID and who do so mainly based on their religious faith, while nonetheless motivated by the desire to do good science. But this doesn’t make their views inevitably true or provable as a ‘natural scientific’ theory or even as warranted for evangelicals across the USA, especially when all can see the reactionary character of Big-ID theory in the IDM with its hyper-focus on ‘(neo-)Darwinism’ and/or atheism. The false dichotomy Big-ID people continue to promote is a testimony to the backwardness (literally, as Meyer calls Big-ID a ‘historical science’) of Big-ID theory, which fails to posit any forward-looking predictions or meaningful moral inclusions. Big-ID is an amoral theory that has nothing to do with ethics, values, beliefs or humanity. In trying so hard and insistently to be a natural scientific theory, to prove that things are (were in the past) ‘Designed,’ Big-ID theory loses touch completely with humanity and the non-natural artefacts of our making. There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things! “I can’t stand intellectual unfairness, which is a form of intellectual dishonesty.” – Timaeus Then Timaeus might want to actually face KN’s honest and insightful observation regarding Big-ID: “My chief complaint against design theory, given what I know of it, is that it collapses the organism/artifact distinction.” If organisms aren’t ‘artefacts,’ i.e. if they are not (in Big-ID’s language) ‘Designed’ by (unnameable, non-natural, non-human, i.e. Big-A) Agents, then Big-ID is a meaningless and explanatorily super-weak theory. Traditional religious apologetics mean much more than ‘modern’ Big-ID theory ever will in trying to convince people that the universe is (by a Big-D Deity) ‘Created’ (i.e. by Design). The best “inference to the best explanation” is that natural processes are what natural scientists look at and study in trying to account for and describe natural history. Big-ID theory hasn’t made so much as a dent in this view, while continuing to be one of the most active anti-Darwin lobbies in the western world. The best (read: authentic or legitimate) theories of 'design' and 'intelligence' are those that involve 'designs' and 'designing' by 'intelligences' that we can study here and now, or historically through evidences available of various kinds and types, e.g. typed or written documents, signed contracts, photographs, recordings, sketches, artwork, architecture, archaeology, etc. - all human-made things. As Ted Davis recently wrote at BioLogos: “all historical questions are left officially out of the [Big-]ID platform.” Surely people here admit this to be true, just as the lone IDist commentator at BioLogos did? The limited role of Big-ID theory is therefore to substitute a weak explanatory theory (almost entirely motivated by religous beliefs) as natural-scientific ontological proof. Davis continues, saying “the inability of [Big-]ID to offer an alternative history of nature [to evolution] counts crucially against its acceptance by the [natural] scientific community.” It is easy to concur with Davis' scholarly viewpoint on this. What we are therefore left with is that the real (small-d) ‘design theory,’ which of course involves (human) intelligence, continues unabated in universities, industries and think tanks, unconcerned that a neo- or quasi-creationist theory of Big-ID is attempting to propagate itself funded mainly by right-wing American politics and evangelical (or sometimes fundamentalist) churches. Responsible and rigorous science and scholarship continue on even as the narrow anti-Darwin and sometimes anti-evolution (cf. 'edge of evolution') position of Big-ID theory tries to carve its own niche. Jon’s ‘teleology’ is easily discussed in its proper context: in the realm of human-made things, where small-d ‘designers’ can openly be discussed and where small-d ‘design processes’ are openly recognised as part of normal science, rather than hidden under mysterious wedge-like censorship and victimisation claims. If Timaeus had the intellectual integrity he requests of others, he would stop asking TEs to debate amongst themselves about their theologies, which they have already openly and repeatedly admitted involves a variety of theological viewpoints. Instead, he would address William J. Murray here at UD and inform him directly that Big-ID theory as promoted by IDM leaders is actually not what he thinks it is in his conflation of small-id ‘human-id’ with Big-ID ‘non-human-ID’ theory. Does Timaeus have the intellectual integrity to publically confront his fellow IDists, when he sees that they are conflating organisms and artefacts for ulterior purposes? Gregory p.s. KairosFocus will likely come back at this with his FSCI universalism. Let him simply answer this question before adding a long post that tells us nothing specific about how human-made things (i.e. artefacts) have actually been (small-id) ‘intelligently designed’ in such a way that they can be helpfully addressed by Big-ID theory, which is not ‘designed’ to address them: What is the FSCO/I metric for calculating 1) the ‘complexity’ of any NFL, NBA, MLB or NHL team, 2) the probability of the events occurring as they did on 11-09-2001, and 3) the colour tie and matching or non-matching sock colour that Barack Obama chooses to wear on any given day? Please note, KF, I’m just looking for numbers, bits of information, etc. – a whole whack of pseudo-explanatory text is not needed or requested. Just provide the FSCO/I calculation numbers for these artefacts and events please. We of course *all* already know that small-d ‘design’ is involved in these things, so that should make it easier for you to calculate using mathematics and probability alone, since the small-d ‘designers’ of these artefacts can be observed, even if their small-i ‘intelligence’ is a much more complicated question. Thanks.Gregory
January 23, 2013
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What does it mean to say that living things have the appearance of design? What dies it mean to say that an internet blog post has the appearance of design?Mung
January 22, 2013
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WJM and Axel (113&114): Your responses are especially delightful because they represent the real difference between the scientists and scholars, on the one hand, and you. Scientists and scholars welcome the opportunity to address the basic questions, the fundamentals, and the so-called obvious cases. Those driven by agendas and religions...well, the barren trees of your labor speak for themselves. My dissertation is on an exceedingly basic concept: text. What is a text? It's a very interesting topic and one than others before me have asked as well. But you think some questions are too obvious to need answering. This tells everyone what's really going on: you don't actually know what ID is, says, or implies. Truly, on you ID is the cheap tuxedo the world says it is. Congratulations. The pity is that if you were to examine rigorously what it means to say a battleship is designed, you might learn something important about the processes and functions pre-supposed by the concept of design. KF@115: I am aware of your work, but you know or should know that you are not answering the question I actually ask. My question is very basic and straightforward: what does it mean to say those two stones are designed? There are more questions that might follow, such as does it mean the same thing to say two stones are designed as to say a life-form is designed? As to this:
we do have a large base of empirical observation that shows design to be causally adequate to explain FSCO/I
I ask that you tell me more about the observations we have of design causing FSCO/I in living organisms. I have not asked about the nature of the designer and don't really care about it. Finally, I suspect you will not answer my question--that never seems to happen, ever--but I'll ask again: Are you willing to entertain the possibility that "evolution is true" in the sense of Jerry Coyne's book title?LarTanner
January 22, 2013
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LT: Pardon, but you know or should know I have dedicated a whole series over the course of two years now at UD to design detection per FSCO/I and in the course of which, I have worked with Torley and Giem on what ended up as the following log reduced expression: Chi_500 = I*S - 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold. Just for the fun of it, let me simply apply this to the two flint stone objects Jon Garvey has identified here. The focal subject will be the parallel or slightly divergent rings on both objects. From the case in view these are bump the toe on stones in a heath territory. However, we see the patterns that are not crystallographic order, nor random scars or fractures, but a clearly organised pattern, sustained through the obvious difficulty of working a fairly hard stone. The rings follow a pattern and are information bearing. They are evidently sustained in rings, where we could assign control points to each and estimate reasonable divergence in bits assigned to a circle. Let's use the old nautical 32 points of arc and halve it, requiring 6 bits per point laterally, with another 4 bits per point to address depth control (notice uniformity) and let's use 64 points around the arc, which seems reasonable on thinking of filing or sawing. 64 * 10 bits = 640 bits per ring. Just one ring would be enough to say designed. That makes sense, if I saw a rock or a rod with a ring in it of uniform width and following a pattern, that would be enough to say that intuitively. The second object seems to have 15 rings, and the second at least 20. This is assuming hey are rings and not a spiral pattern like a cut thread. So, while I cannot say what Mr Garvey's objects are for, I can say that they are full of FSCO/I and show themselves to be designed on the metric just given. Next, you seem to want to suggest that being possibly open to detecting design but obviously dubious is of epistemic status equivalent to views on macro-evolution by blind watchmaker means. The two are not remotely comparable. As you also know or should know, we do have a large base of empirical observation that shows design to be causally adequate to explain FSCO/I and we lack counter-instances to this. Indeed the design inference on observed signs pivots on that empirically reliable finding. By contrast we have precisely zero actual observations of chance variation and differential reproductive success giving rise to novel body plans. And this is multiplied by the challenges of such chance variation needing to account for the FSCO/I. Extrapolations from so-called microevolution are unwarranted, and it is improper to imply or suggest that the one constitutes evidence for the other, given the vast difference in complex, specific information involved. Where also, even Young Earth Creationists of modern sorts have no problem with so-called microevo. What I can say is that my worldview is not on the line on the issue, I could be perfectly satisfied with universal common descent, on demonstrated mechanisms, were that actually shown to be the case. But that is about as far from what actually obtains as we could imagine. If you dispute this, kindly provide the evidence on causal adequacy. In short: name the Nobel Prize holders who "done the work." I am pretty sure you simply do not have them. So, why not call my bluff if you have the evidence, and correct me in my benighted error? (Better yet, why not provide a response to the 6,000 word Evolution essay challenge that hits four months unanswered on the morrow? Remember, I have publicly offered to host the response right here at UD. Remember, you have to ground two things solidly in light of adequate empirical observations that show the causal power to do the job: origin of life via chem evo, and origin of body plans by chance and necessity mechanisms.) Recall, too: I and other design thinkers to Thaxton et al in the mid 1980's have plainly and repeatedly noted that the evident design of life does not address directly the question of the nature of the designer, whether within or beyond the cosmos. Where design would imply something beyond the cosmos is obviously cosmological fine tuning and related matters such as the contingency of the observed cosmos. But on that I don't need to cite Christians, Sir Fred Hoyle, a life-long agnostic and Nobel equivalent prize holder, is the one who has put the cat in among the pigeons. Evolutionary materialism is committed to some form of blind chance variation and differential reproductive success being responsible for the diversity in the world of life, and it has actually tried to ideologically redefine science and its methods in that pursuit. In short, you have tried to equate quite different things. So, now, let us get back to basics. Here, we have a landslide on mars and ticking out from the foot of it, a heavily armoured but crashed space battleship, let's just say with advanced rail gun turrets and unknown propulsion systems. Do you recognise that there is a strong contrast between the two, the rockfall and the ship? On what grounds and how would you describe that qualitatively? Can such be reduced to a quantitative model and metric? Why or why not? Especially by contrast to the case above with Mr Garvey's rock fragments, the concept of Functionally specific complex organisation and/or associated information, and the threshold metric advanced to quantify same? KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2013
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Stop it! Your humour is like my late uncle's.. so bitter, it made me feel guilty laughing at it. Well, he did used to get upset if I laughed at one of his more bitter cracks. Oddly enough, nowhere near as academically-educated as you people, he was nevertheless a wizard at electronics, worked at Aldermaston in quite a responsible capacity, and also moonlighted for the March Formula One team. Anyway, he was telling me that at Aldermaston, they had a system whereby they were put under immense pressure by being obliged to show the state of the progress of their work, evidently at frequent intervals. Then he told me that a colleague of his called it, 'examination by introspection', and when I laughed, he got quite upset - telling me it wasn't funny! On another occasion, his bitter humour just bamboozled me. Passing Aldermaston on a car trip, he nodded, saying, There they are, the salt mines!' In my naivety, I said I hadn't realised there were salt mines in this country. I'm getting to look forward to seeing more of your and Mung's barbed shafts of wit. Or maybe, on occasions, as above, just pithy, if slightly exaggerated truths. I can't quite see Shakespeare crafting a tragedy around poor Yorrick's... sorry, LT's folly.Axel
January 22, 2013
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"If you cannot demonstrate that a battleship results from ID ..."
Tragically, LT is completely serious.William J Murray
January 22, 2013
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WJM@83: It's important to demonstrate the obvious because often it isn't so obvious. For example, it is obvious that the sun rises in the east. It is obvious that the moon radiates light. Some things are obvious only in hindsight or in context. If you cannot demonstrate that a battleship results from ID, how could you hope to make the case that the universe and/or life results from ID? KF@90: Yes, I am willing to entertain the possibility that design may be inferred. You know, I wish this site would spend much more time demonstrating how to make such inferences. [Side-question, just for curiosity: Are you willing to entertain the possibility that "evolution is true" in the sense of Jerry Coyne's book title? Maybe you all already do entertain this possibility. I really don't know.] UBP@93: For argument's sake, let's say the "material marker" does warrant inferring "agency involvement" in the gene. If so, you are saying that to solve a recognized engineering issue in the gene--the need to effect translation--a designer decided and intended to make a new invention: materially instantiated "physicochemically-arbitrary relationships." Please let me know if I am representing the view correctly, but I think you are saying that the designer built and intended these "physicochemically-arbitrary relationships" to perform genetic translation. Assuming I have your position represented competently, my question what the "agent" specifically did to be "involved," as you say. What did the agent do to get involved in designing biological information? Did the agent select the relationships needed from among choices? Did the agent arrange chemicals and timing of relationships? Questions like these seem like ones whose answers ultimately establish an ID theory.LarTanner
January 22, 2013
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There seem to be two separate issues here. The first is teleology: The battleship is clearly to float and shoot projectiles: Mt Rushmore is obviously resembling people: KN's cloth is clearly ... cloth. Unfortunately natural science has forbidden itself from doing teleology. The second is the weaker issue of efficient causes beyond the apparent ability of inanimate nature - which are usually associated with purpose. Functional complexity even in the absence of knowledge of function - the battleship has taken too much careful work to be natural, even if alien investigators don't know about ships or guns. A while ago I blogged on a personal couple of examples of objects with no cultural context, no definite human agency and no known purpose. Yet one of them was unhesitatingly described as "artificial" by a British Museum expert, even as he expressed complete ignorance as to its nature. So, for your amusement, I present two local alien artifacts from England - designed, or not? And why?Jon Garvey
January 22, 2013
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Quadruple Axel, eh, Tim? Well spotted. And to think, I could have been a contender at the Olympics!Axel
January 22, 2013
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He surely did, KF. One senses that the CBI's finest would have been electronically tagged, today, were society any wiser, instead of dimmer. Strange as it may seem, Timaeus, I believe this sudden, overwhelming success of individuals of egregious mediocrity(!), hitherto unknown precisely in the area of their sudden apotheosis, has become a recurrent feature of the West, precipitated by far right-wing 'backwoodsmen', (effectively, all who are generically atheist), when they find, as regularly happens, that at last, the opportunity they had been working towards has arrived. They gradually come to believe more and more in their own publicity, and so end up as demi-gods in their own eyes, as well as those of their supporters, a little further down the food-chain than their billionnaire sponsors. Even Lloyd George, admittedly on the more cynical downward slope by that time, expressed admiration for Mussolini, according to the UK Daily Mail, which, at one time, had had headlines lauding Mussolini and was also passionate about the merits of 'Mr Hitler'. In another item, it mentioned that Churchill himself had actually stated that Mussolini was the greatest national leader in the world. If you want the inside track on what goes on behind the scenes, read a right-wing rag. I hadn't known that our ships heading for Suez were being tracked by a US battleship. 'Move over, sonny. Your day's over!' It's equally the case that the most brilliantly savage humour, even against its own, politically, is from the right. None more hilarious than Evelyn Waugh. In one of his books, the historian, A J P Taylor, stated that the Lord Chancellor (Mr Law and Order) of a former, female Prime minister of the UK - of whom more later - canvassed as the conservative candidate for Oxford in a prewar by-election under the slogan, 'A vote for Hogg' - as he then was - 'is a vote for Hitler.' Whenever I have brought this up in newspapers, it has been denied, and the slogan ascribed to another candidate, but Taylor was a meticulous scholar. Moreover, I wrote to the head of Channel 4 TV saying to him that he should be ashamed of himself, as a Jew, for not publicising this; and it was only(?) by chance that I found myself watching the programme that he did in fact make on that infamous bye-election (they voted for Hogg), when he was interviewing Lord Longford. When asked directly about it, Longford squirmed with an embarrassed grin and, tut- tutted at the idea, though without directly denying it. By the way, Hogg won that election, as most of the monied people in the West and the Antipodes had at that time a great tenderness for Mussolini and 'Mr Hitler'. A striking parallel with Darwin in this sudden, in her case, proximately media-driven, apotheosis, is a certain former, female prime minister of the UK. Suddenly, once she had served her purpose and had become an embarrassment (possibly, incipience of the dementia, referring to herself with the royal plural), she was almost literally given 'the bum's rush', and one could sense that she would have been asking herself, 'How can I be so different from what I was last week? When I, so to speak, walked on water? And have been doing so to great fanfares, for a long time now.' Taylor also recounted that Hitler too was carried along far more than he had anticipated, by the efforts of the German industrialists, lawyers, physicians et al, and the concomitantly ambivalent attitude of the UK. Chomsky asserted that the UK could have prevented WWII as late as 1938, but the Nazis were good for the stock-market. Its so easy to understand Christ's animadversions against the World with a big W. Incidentally, when a group of anti-Nazi freedom-fighters came to Britain, at great personal risk, presumably - I certainly hope* - before the war, seeking help from our Government of the day, they were told by a Foreign Office official that they were traitors to their country! In fact, most were executed towards the end of the war by the Nazis - doubtless after being tortured. *I certainly hope so, as during WWI, some clown of a Tory MP expressed consternation at plans to bomb the industrial Ruhr, since, as he protested, it was private property...Axel
January 22, 2013
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Timaeus, What a wonderful read #100 was! You said:
So I support ID but I’m not a dogmatist about it. My main reason for entering the fray was that so many anti-ID people were being nasty, polemical, and just plain unreasonable in not giving ID arguments *some* credit. It’s almost as if anything any ID person argues has to be met, for political reasons, by flat denials — every white must be met with a black, every argument with “lousy science” “not science” “closet creationism” etc.
The main reason I present the arguments I do is to expose the unreasonableness of the ideological stonewalling on several fronts. For years on the internet I've run into those that claim that ID detection is "not science", but rather seeks to undermine science. What? How can the effort to quantify what is in many cases an obvious difference between categories of physical objects be called "non-science"? The revealing aspect of this is: in every other case, scientists leap into the effort to quantify everything imaginable, not just apparent differences between categories of objects and phenomena. But, when it comes to trying to quantify the difference between obvious, known cases of ID and that which is presumed to be naturally-occurring - IOW, quantifying a difference known to exist - we run into those that refuse to even admit that a battleship is obviously, quantifiably different from a pile of rocks. They won't even answer simple, basic questions, apparently to avoid being corralled into the cul-de-sac of their ideological denial. It seems to me that the biological arguments, which is where this debate is almost entirely held, covers up this more fundamental and explicit issue because it is buried under rather dense scientific and mathematical terminology and references. What dispassionate onlookers should note, IMO, is this is what the ID community is dealing with deep inside those arguments about protein landscapes, islands of function and information creation, transcription and use; their opposition (atheistic, materialist darwinists) will often not even admit that there is, even in principle, a quantifiable difference, in terms of intelligent design, between a battleship and a pile of rocks. Once again: how can anyone expect to have an intellectually honest and productive debate about ID with those that deny this, and when called on it, are content to say "I have no idea if such a difference can be quantified" or "Nope, I'm not going to answer those questions." How can there be any expectation of fair, honest treatment of deeper and more involved biological/evolutionary issues when this is the kind of ideological intransigence one is working with?William J Murray
January 22, 2013
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F/N: I would argue that in the case of digital signal processing systems in the living cell, we are not looking at mere similarity, but instantiation. I would further point out that so long as agency is possible at OOL or OO body plans or OO a fine tuned cosmos, we cannot properly exclude such as candidates, on pain of censorship of the process of investigation of the remote past in light of its traces and causes in the present that are known to be adequate to cause such signs. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2013
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T: AS had some petty sharp things to say about merchants and the like, and their tendency to create greed driven conspiracies in restraint of trade. KFkairosfocus
January 22, 2013
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It's a pleasure to talk to the first man in history who has performed (101-104 above) a quadruple Axel! Yes, Adam Smith was a professor of Moral Philosophy, and I would not be surprised if he personally opposed certain forms of greed. In mentioning the "invisible hand" I wasn't trying to blame him for all the evils of capitalism; it's true, however, that the slogan, and the idea, of the "invisible hand" lent itself to misuse by the greedy and the exploitative, who could salve their consciences by saying that according to the best economic theory, their ruthless activities were contributing to the long-term good of the human race! Thus, you have books with titles like "The Virtue of Selfishness" etc. But of course "selfishness" as commonly understood can never be virtuous -- not for a Christian, anyway. (Economic activity aimed at a profit is another matter -- that need not be "selfish" in the bad sense.) In any case, the point about Darwin is that the pigeon or giraffe with a survival advantage couldn't care less what happens to his less competitive brethren. He will out-breed them, and their lines will eventually die out. Nature's wisdom works through the pitiless destruction of the less efficient. It's no accident that the rhetoric of businessmen in the Anglophone world (where Darwin had his greatest influence) is filled with language like "survival of the fittest" "law of the jungle" "drive other competitors out of business" "the superior product will survive" etc. I'm not blaming Adam Smith for all of that, but one can see how Darwin's theory fit in better with economic notions set forth by Adam Smith than it would have with notions set forth by Plato, Aristotle, or Cicero. Smith's ideas facilitated, even if they did not cause, or intend, the later evils done in Smith's name. However, I think you understand my general point, which is that the acceptance of Darwin was at least as much due to cultural factors as to the scientific merits of Darwinian theory. (In fact, Darwin's theory of natural selection was severely criticized by many scientists, on scientific, not religious, grounds, and was not universally accepted until it was synthesized with the genetics of Mendel and some high-powered math by the population geneticists of the 1930s. But the NCSE and Myers, Moran, Ken Miller, Dawkins, etc. will never bring up such bits of biological history. It suits their propaganda purposes to picture the history as "Darwin comes along, slays Paley in one stroke, and the whole biological world falls at his feet" -- a historiography that could be accepted only by the most vulgar of journalists.)Timaeus
January 22, 2013
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@ Timaeus 'I think that neo-Darwinism once seemed compelling (a) because it fit in well with (indeed, was partly derived from) a cultural ethos in which “survival of the fittest” and “the invisible hand” (which makes selfish actions of individuals work out best for the whole nation, as selfish actions of individuals with superior variations in the long run strengthen the species) was a keynote in economics and other fields;' Timaeus, I can see that in terms of exploiting the worldly bent of merchants, their incorrigible commitment to a kind of personal, spiritual kamikaze, but not as endorsement of their morality. But then neither was the touted myth of the survival of the fittest. So, it seems to me that the point Smith was making was nothing other than the old Augustinian adage that Grace builds upon Nature, perhaps a more technical aspect of the more secular adage that it takes all types to make a world. Notably, in the case of the butcher, the baker, the candlestick-maker, et al. What smith referred to as the Hidden Hand, would, therefore, have been nothing other than the synergies arising from the prudent use of all human skills, so that 'all things' could 'work together for good to them that love God.' Unsurprisingly, that august, encyclopaedia of record, Wikipedia, casts him as an unbeliever, if I remember correctly, but if he was such, he was eminently imbued as the moral philosopher he was, with pristine, Christian values. Also, if that was the case, it may be that the fame he acquired through a general misunderstanding of the burden of his writings, if it occurred in his own day, as well as in our purblind, Brave New Neo-Conservative world, 'turned his head', as it was to turn Darwin's. Even Marx was to claim that there were people who were more Marxist than he was, but doubtless was eventually grateful insofar as it 'aggrandised' his fame/notoriety. However, as regards the grander, more opulent merchants, he evidently viewed them as out and out recidivists, criminals, to be watched like hawks, in order to forfend against their constant conspiring against the common good, by gratuitously raising prices, etc. I realise this is not germane to the thread, but think it worth pointing these things out, in the teeth of all the unconscionably-mendacious far-right propaganda concerning him. http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/23/4046Axel
January 21, 2013
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Nothing less. Not even a degree of mental deficiency.Axel
January 21, 2013
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RE your #98, Mung, why does Mt Rushmore appear to be designed and patently was, yet the teleological default assumption be that the whole of nature in all its apparent ingenuity (such as to leads to man's very successful biomimetic research), complexity and variety, be nothing more than the product of random chance. Utter insanity.Axel
January 21, 2013
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'Whether the relational property of having been designed applies to organisms, as it does to artifacts, depends on how impressed one is by the relevant similarities between them. I’m just not impressed by the similarities at all.' But, re your #18, surely, KN, you would be all the more in impressed in favour of ID, in relation to the immeasurably more sophisticated machine constituted by the organism?Axel
January 21, 2013
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Hi, Kantian. There is no "next step" -- not at the moment, anyway. I just wanted your confirmation of my analysis. I certainly agree with you that we classify things as artifacts often enough without perceiving ourselves as making any formal inference; but it seems to me that the fact that we can make errors in classifying some things as artifacts (e.g., when a young child sees a certain pattern of frost on a window, neatly arranged hexagons or something of the sort, he or she often thinks that someone made the glass that way) indicates the unconscious thought process we are employing (such arrangements don't happen by nature or change, but only by design). I agree that the next step -- the crucial step -- the step that moves from television sets on Mars to complex organic systems -- is debatable. And it doesn't bother me when when TEs or atheists or others (sensible "neutrals" like yourself) point out the dissimilarities between organic systems and artificial ones, and raise the question whether the inference can be straightforwardly applied. That's a reasonable caution, the sort of caution that we see in any good philosopher. (If only all the bloggers and commenters and popular book-writers wrote with your calm and sobriety about these things!) At the same time, the similarities between organic systems and artificial ones are strong as well. And whether we try to cast those similarities in terms of information theory or in terms of probability theory or something else, I don't think the argument is fundamentally a bad one -- though I would hasten to add that I don't think it constitutes a "proof" (in the Euclidean or Cartesian sense) either. I don't expect "proof" of a formal kind in any natural science -- just more rather than less compelling explanations. At the end of "Theism" Mill speaks about inductive arguments of varying strengths, and ranks the argument for God's existence from design (Paley-like arguments) as only of middling strength; but he doesn't therefore say that they are inadmissible arguments or should be banned from philosophy. He's simply saying that they aren't demonstrative as Aquinas or someone else would mean the term. But few things are demonstrative in that narrow sense. That's why I have trouble getting excited about the "ID is not science" argument, because it seems to imply that "real science" somehow has achieved "truth" by some rigorous method, whereas ID arguments are looser somehow. Yet all arguments in natural science, from those that established the ether to those that destroyed it, from those that established the steady state to those which substituted the Big Bang, are non-demonstrative in the classical sense. They are accepted because they are compelling to the mind at a certain stage of scientific and cultural development. Nothing is ever "proved" in the final sense. I think that neo-Darwinism once seemed compelling (a) because it fit in well with (indeed, was partly derived from) a cultural ethos in which "survival of the fittest" and "the invisible hand" (which makes selfish actions of individuals work out best for the whole nation, as selfish actions of individuals with superior variations in the long run strengthen the species) was a keynote in economics and other fields; (b) because it was reductionist (all higher-level organization is explained by crude stepwise advances of lower-level organization) and (c) because it was anti-teleological (the mutations aren't trying to do anything; no one is guiding the show). Only such things can explain why neo-Darwinism was so widely accepted (the Modern Synthesis, i.e., neo-Darwinism, was firmly in place by 1947) at a time when biologists didn't really have a clue how inheritance worked, how proteins were made inside cells, etc. (the double helix wasn't understood until 1953, and the triplet codons weren't entirely worked out until about 1963 or so), and knew next to nothing about developmental processes and how they interconnect with genomic factors. There was no *empirical* reason to believe that "random mutations" filtered by "natural selection" could create radically new body forms (as opposed to tinker with existing ones, making necks longer, spots darker, eyes bluer, etc.). The argumentative looseness involved in accepting neo-Darwinian mechanisms long before the genetic-biochemical basis for it was established was at least as high as the argumentative looseness in the best passages of Paley etc. And the design argument is tighter now than it was in Paley's day, now that we know things that neither Paley nor Darwin (nor any of the Modern Synthesis people in 1937-1947) knew about molecular biology, genomics, and developmental biology. That said, I don't regard the design inference as a "proof." I think it's an "inference to the best explanation" and therefore tentative, revisable as new data come in. The best explanation for the origin of the first cell *now* is that a designing intelligence arranged it. That's what I think men and women of science should conclude, if they adopt *any* tentative inference about the origin of life. If new information comes in, i.e., if we find out tomorrow that we can create proteins randomly in a milk shake maker, then that inference would not longer be the best explanation; chance would surpass it. But it seems to me that "good science" at the moment points more strongly to design rather than chance, at least for the first life. After you have life, with its possibility for variation and exploring new forms, then an additional argument needs to be made. I see Meyer as concentrating on the first point, and Dembski, Behe, Nelson, etc. as working on the additional arguments. So I support ID but I'm not a dogmatist about it. My main reason for entering the fray was that so many anti-ID people were being nasty, polemical, and just plain unreasonable in not giving ID arguments *some* credit. It's almost as if anything any ID person argues has to be met, for political reasons, by flat denials -- every white must be met with a black, every argument with "lousy science" "not science" "closet creationism" etc. You don't do that, which I appreciate; but many TEs and atheists do. Hence my occasional ferocity on this site. I can't stand intellectual unfairness, which is a form of intellectual dishonesty. I like your more balanced way of arguing, whereby you represent ID people as at least intelligent and not as entirely wrong in everything they say, while reserving the right to disagree on a number of points. If only that could be the standard internet approach! But I'm daydreaming again.Timaeus
January 21, 2013
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It's possible that I was making a design inference, but I'm not entirely sure. Design inferences are supposed to be strictly inductive, right? Whereas once I've decided to classify the alien cloth as an artifact, it's just analytic that it was designed. But maybe you're right -- after all, what grounds the classification is its perceptible similarities to the categories I already know how to work with. If cotton turned itself into cloth on this alien world, the laws of physics would have to be radically different here -- so different that they couldn't be universal truths, as we take them to be -- which in turn means that there aren't any "laws" of physics in the sense we ordinarily mean, as established by the past three hundred years of Western science. Given a choice between "making a design inference" and tossing the laws of physics entirely out the window, I'd happily say that it's more reasonable to chose the former. Ok, so you got me to concede that much -- what's the next step?Kantian Naturalist
January 21, 2013
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Kantian: I agree with you about Miller's book - entertaining, and well-written, but his various remarks about quantum indeterminacy were, I thought, internally incoherent. And of course I don't agree with his overall characterization of ID, or with many of this theological remarks (a number of which, despite his personal Catholicism, don't reflect the Catholic intellectual tradition). Hans Jonas's book, *The Phenomenon of Life*, is indeed a rich and interesting work. Unfortunately few evolutionary biologists, or even biologists generally, seem interested in a philosophical understanding of their subject-matter. Jonas has also written a number of other good things pertaining not just to biology but to the history and philosophy of science more broadly; many of his essays are collected, sometimes in revised form, in his various books. I think you didn't really respond to my comment about the cotton and the woven cloth. It seems to me that you said we could simply "classify" the woven cloth as an artifact, whereas I think you were implicitly making a design inference. Yes, you can "recognize" woven cloth when you see it, but if the question is "where did this arrangement of fibres come from, when only the raw cotton was here before" then in "recognizing" it as woven, you are in fact tacitly accepting a causal history that implies design. You're ruling out combinations of freak events and natural laws as the explanation for the woven cloth. So the recognition or classifying conceals a design inference -- even if the inference is one you never consciously made.Timaeus
January 21, 2013
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Another weird thing, Mung, is that science, empiricism, is all about appearance; indeed, measurable appearance. So, Dawkins is really into mystagogy in a big way. What other way is there to know via the analytical intelligence than by appearance? You can't measure something, even at the subatomic level, that does not manifest at least some of its physical properties. Mind you, they've somehow managed to take the 'intuition' they've read that Einstein prized so highly on board the materialist express, just as they've concluded that mind must be an emanation of matter. But, inevitably, when they use the term, 'counter-intuitive' to describe some paradox, they cast themselves as incorrigible idiots.Axel
January 21, 2013
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It's pretty amazing that Richard Dawkins and other scientists can admit to the blatant "appearance of design" in nature, in fact, that an entire theory could be constructed to explain how that appearance of design could arise naturally, and people here can't even admit a battleship appears to be designed. lol.Mung
January 21, 2013
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@Alan (91) TE = theistic evolutionists FSCO/I = functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, more here! <-- repaired linkBox
January 21, 2013
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@Alan (91) TE = theistic evolutionists FSCO/I = functionally specific, complex organisation and associated information, more hereBox
January 21, 2013
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I ask because on the biological side it has never been clear to me what it means to say that biological information is one thing that that was intelligently designed.
Larry I provided you an unambiguous material marker of agency involvement in biological information, that is, the presence of physicochemically-arbitrary relationships instantiated in the genetic translation system. It is unambiguous in regards to the presence of its arbitrary component; it is unambiguous in regards to the system’s causal structures being independent of their lowest potential energy states; and it is unambiguous in regards to the availability of any naturally-occurring counter examples. One can, of course, choose to ignore that such relationships are the antithesis of that which results from a purely material process, and likewise, one can ignore that the observed arbitrariness is also a logical necessity to the proper function of the system. And finally, one can ignore that not only are there no naturally-occurring counter examples to be found, but given the logical necessities of the system (viewed even from the standpoint of pure material reductionism), none should be found. One can choose to ignore these things, but none are altered by that choice.Upright BiPed
January 21, 2013
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KN @ 88 so, if anywhere, in all that living complexity, there was just one piece of finely woven, (non-self replicating) cloth, you'd be sold, but in its absence, no dice? fascinatinges58
January 21, 2013
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