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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design
specified complexity
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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
Wouldn't biomimetics be viewed as a 'plus' on the side of ID? Just wondering.Axel
January 23, 2013
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Gregory:
W.J. Murray, however, seems to think its o.k. to put words in peoples’ mouths and to believe that is ethical. Why?
Not long ago you were putting words in the mouth of Stephen Meyer. Hypocrite much?Mung
January 23, 2013
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KN: I agree with you about testability, and about the speculative excesses of modern physics (and not just particle physics but also cosmology). There are two questions here: (a) whether ID inferences are legitimate; (b) whether, even if legitimate, they can be the basis of a dynamic scientific enterprise, or merely sit as dead "facts" that point to nothing beyond themselves. You and I now seem to agree that in certain cases, e.g., a contraption found on Mars, design inferences can be legitimate. But you are wondering whether the mere fact that "this was designed, not the product of chance" can be the basis of much of a science. That is a fair criticism. I would argue that ID did not have, at first, much of a scientific program. All it had was Paleyan-type arguments updated by Behe and Dembski, that the flagellum or some other thing was designed. But that does not yield any predictability. I think that ID is now moving beyond that point. If we ask, for example, what would the comparative predictions be for random mutations versus design, regarding "junk DNA," we see that a design perspective would bid investigators to experiment for yet-unknown uses of apparent genomic "junk," whereas a "random mutations" perspective would suggest that there would be lots of junk left over in the noncoding part of genome (which would be preserved because it was harmless, even though it did no good), and so long hours spent searching for uses would likely be profitless. Now, empirical evidence indicates that a much larger proportion of the "junk" than anyone imagined serves (noncoding but) important functions in the life of the organism. So the design perspective is a clear winner on that prediction. Also, the Biologic Institute, set up by Discovery, publishes a peer-reviewed scientific journal featuring new research based on a design perspective. Its articles can be mostly read online. I am also told that information-theoretical perspectives are now becoming routine in some areas of biology; and even though the scientists employing these perspectives are generally not ID theorists, the utility of such perspectives is again something would be predicted by ID. I'm not saying that ID has as yet generated any huge body of scientific literature, but it is making a start. And given that it has been heresy in the biological world to even entertain design-like language until very recently (when the success of information theory in other fields has forced hidebound, gray-haired population geneticists to grudgingly allow information theory inside their sacred compound), I think it's too soon to dismiss what ID perspectives may accomplish. I know this answer isn't fully satisfying, given that we are in early days, but I hope it isn't evasive and does address your concern.Timaeus
January 23, 2013
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The problem, WJM, is that you capitalized "Intelligent Design" in the title of the OP.Mung
January 23, 2013
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Mr. Murray: I'll let Gregory comment on his own meaning, but regardless of what Gregory thinks that I think, I do *not* think that you are a dupe.Timaeus
January 23, 2013
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In re: Timaeus @ 100 I agree with you in two major respect: "ID is not science" is weak tea, and the criteria of justification are very different in formal and informal domains of inquiry. In formal domains of inquiry, we can have proofs (or 'demonstrations'); in informal domains, we must settle for less-than-deductive justifications. In fact, I think that very little can be settled deductively, and none that is of genuine existential significance. However, I do think that we need more than just inference-to-the-best-explanation to have a good scientific theory. Inference-to-the-best-explanation, as I understand it, is what Peirce called "abduction", or what we might also call "positing": we posit the existence of some unobserved X in order to explain observed regularities described in terms of y, z, g. But we need to also figure out how to test for x, and that means supplementing abduction with deduction and induction. So we have to ask, "if x were the case, what would have to be case? what would follow? and what unobserved but observable regularities can we look for?" Then we look for them, and if we're on the right track, we can form empirical generalizations (induction) which bolster our confidence in our initial supposition. In other words, the inferences-to-the-best-explanation need to be empirically confirmable or testable. The further science drifts away from that standard, the more it approaches sheer metaphysical speculation -- as we saw happen in high-energy particle physics in the second half of the 20th century. But yeah, no empirical science can yield any certainty, only varying degrees of probable knowledge. But eh, who needs certainty, anyway?Kantian Naturalist
January 23, 2013
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'Understood, your pseudo-scientific religious apologetics in #159, Axel.' Greg, there is nothing pseudo-scientific about the findings of a team of eminent scientists, including at least one molecular physicist, involved in the latest research (at that time) on the Holy Shroud of Turin. Yet rather than address the empirical specifics they lay out for us, you apprise us of your astonishingly irrelevant tourist experience in the Holy Land..! 'Yes, that is part of the meaning of Big-ID. Bravo! Oops, but IDists claim that Big-ID theory is *only natural science* and that it provides no “scientific evidence for theism.” My position for almost a decade has been that “Big-ID is quite obviously a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation first and foremost.” It seems that you agree with me, even if you won’t openly say it at UD.' Sorry to disappoint you again, Greg, but, although for different reasons than you imply, perhaps I shouldn't be posting to this thread, as I'm not interested in adhering to a classification such as, Big ID, or small ID. Personally, I don't give tuppence about such classifications, as I speak from what I know, not from what I think or what I might gain me marks for in an examination. So, in that sense you could say that I am a fundamentalist. My interest is wholly religious, but it tickles me pink that these eminent scientists have adduced unassailable, empirical evidence of just such an event horizon as the Resurrection would have been. 'You’re not ranked high enough for most people to pay attention so far. Just give us the results when they’re ready, o.k.?' Excellent. The Dawkins Defence! I feel very flattered. Well, which do you want me to come backs as: a bishop or theologian, perhaps? Or a PhD biologist or PhD physicist? Or a professor in a field you deem relevant, perhaps? But I beg you, if I am too low on the pecking order (which I understand), please, rebut at least one of the more seemingly-epochal findings of those scientists, to another, actually academically-qualified, ID poster on here. Find some excuse to smuggle it in. Or maybe BA will get round to trying to pin you down on your opinion concerning the empirical evidence for the Resurrection presented by the Holy Shroud of Turin. '“Gregory, there is a genuine poignancy about your lament” – Axel Thank goodness someone in America seems to understand something!' Truth to tell, Greg, I don't like to see a grown man downhearted because he can't address specifics. For some reason, although your tone was quite measured and polite, I was reminded of Harry Enfield's perpetually-disaffected teenager, Kevin - perhaps in one of his more reflective moments. Anyway, best wishes to you from Bonny Scotland, Greg. (Consistent to the last, eh?) No. Not Nova Scotia.Axel
January 23, 2013
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#166: Gregory, As far as I can tell - and I most certainly can be wrong about this - you are saying that Big ID, as the well-known proponents advocate, is about classifying a supernatural god as a scientific explanation for ... well ... everything, I guess, and pushing that philosophy, and what it entails into the culture via academia, science, and media like UD. Also as far as I can tell, you consider me some kind of witting or unwitting accomplice to the propagandizing of this agenda, whereby I make small-ID arguments (that might be good in a rhetorical sense, but lack any substance) that only appear to be supportive examples of Big ID, but which really have nothing to do with Big ID other than contributing to the agenda. IOW, I'm some sort of dupe, or useful idiot (if I'm not aware that what I'm doing is supporting the Big ID agenda). Also, if I'm correct, in your view Timaeus and others know this, but are just happily allowing people like me to, in my ignorance, promote the cause. So, is that close?William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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G: Pardon me but onlookers can see for themselves what is going on, not only including what I pointed out but your triumphalistic assertion that I dodged you on giving units of info, when the units were right there from 115, apart from log_2 metrics being in bits being absolutely standard praxis that builds on not even Shannon but Hartley. I don't need to get into more personalities so I will simply point out on fair comment that you have gone ballistic since I took you up directly by using the information, specificity and complexity approach to show how FSCO/I applies to a live case and how it can quantify implicit info in an organised entity. Please pause, take a time out to do some rethinking on the merits, and then act on that. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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Gregory
Are you hearing this legitimate distinction (Gingerich and many others) or purposely ignoring it in order to defend the fantastic ideology of IDism?
I am trying to help you to understand that your distinction (and Gingerich's distinction) has not been well thought out.
To your clear and direct question to me, I am both a forward thinker and a backward thinker.
I didn't ask you what "you" were. I asked you to define small id. Does it include the traditional reason-based approaches that INFER a designer from the patterns in nature as well as the traditional faith-based arguments that ASSUME a designer and then explain nature on that basis? If it is only the latter, why do you leave out the former. If it is both, why do you refer to both as small id as if these two opposite approaches belong in the same category? It's really a very simple question. [“how do we separate motives from methods?” – StephenB
Yes, StephenB, seemingly orthodox Catholic Big-ID proponent, you should by now be ready to step to the plate and offer an answer to this. I’m already well-ahead of you, even as an academic to your amateurism.
If you are well ahead of me, then why are you running away from my questions? Does small id recognize both the forward and backward approach to "God did it?" Does Big ID make the distinction between Big ID's motives and Big ID's methods?
And everyone I’ve met in the IDM (including most ID-leaders from Dembski to Meyer to Wells to Nelson) refuses point-blank to directly answer this question.
What question would that be? If all else fails, try a simple interrogative sentence. A formulation like that works very well when you are trying to elicit a meaningful response.
(Yet an unsuprising hint, I’m not going to answer your question here on your own ideological turf, as if I owe anything to the Big-ID/IDM in forming my non-Big-ID views.)
This does not surprise me. At the moment of truth, you fold like a lawn chair. In spite of your endless blustering and self promotion, you cannot provide a reasonable answer to a reasonable question.
Yes, “It is time for you to define your terms,” StephenB, W.J. Murray, with the help of pseudo-’Timaeus,’ and not to depend on someone outside of the IDM like myself, who purposefully, rationally and faithfully rejects Big-ID natural scientism to speak directly to this weakness in Big-ID theory.
ID proponents are happy to respond to any challenge you might care to throw their way. Just gather up those disparate and disorganized ideas in your head and narrow them down to the point where you can formulate an intelligent and well-articulated question. Do you think you can do it? Practice makes perfect.
Will you or anyone at UD answer this call?
Here we go again. What call would that be?StephenB
January 23, 2013
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Gregory: [Big ID] regurgitates on analogies with human-made things.
This is refuted by physical evidence - which you ignore for that very reason that you cannot refute it.
Gregory: There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things.”
Humans are semiotic beings; sensory input and the exchange of information play a supreme role in virtually all human activities. This phenomena enatils specific material conditions. These material conditions tie the observation of human discourse to a larger set of semiotic observations, which include the origin of living systems. To the extent that design requires a "theory of human-made things", your claim is simply and demonstrably false. If you'd like to attack this counterclaim, I will provide you my position in a single paragraph, and you can take the opportunity to show it to be false:
In a material universe, it is not possible to transfer any form of recorded information into a material effect without using an arrangement of matter (or energy) as a medium. If that is true, then other material necessities must logically follow. Firstly, such a medium must operate to evoke a material effect within a system capable of producing that effect. Universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. Secondly, if a medium contains information as a consequence of its arrangement, then that arrangement must be materially arbitrary to the effect it evokes. Again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. And thirdly, if an arrangement of matter requires a system to produce an effect that it is materially arbitrary to, then that system must contain a second arrangement of matter to establish the otherwise non-existent relationship between the medium and its effect. Once again, universal observation and logical necessity demonstrate this to be true. If each of these things are true, then in order to transfer any form of recorded information, the process fundamentally requires two arrangements of matter, each with a materially arbitrary quality, operating as an irreducible core within a system. And because Darwinian evolution requires the transfer and translation of information in order to exist itself, it cannot be the source of the system. Given these observations, a mechanism capable of establishing this semiotic state is necessary prior to the onset of information-based organization, as well as Darwinian evolution.
Upright BiPed
January 23, 2013
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Ohh, but wait folks, Big-ID has *nothing* to do with human beings. It's supposed to be about 'transcendent Designers' and not mundane 'designers' (Dembski 1999). So Eric in his heart of hearts likely rejects W.J. Murray's OP claim too. But he simply won't publically reject it because he supports Big-ID ideology and doesn't respect small-id traditional theology. Instead, he will laugh insecurely at my logical claim that Big-ID theory is actually (and easily shown to be) scientistic, while 'small-id' responsibly suppports the orthodox Abrahamic religious traditions. Is there really nothing heterodox about Eric Anderson's position? Will he contort traditional 'theism' to adopt an IDist label for himself? Or does he claim, like many IDists, that Big-ID theory has *nothing* to do with theology?Gregory
January 23, 2013
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You're welcome for the laughs, Eric Anderson! No conspiracies here, just the most rigorous study of the IDM that is yet available in English language, including insider personal interviews with DI-IDM leaders. Go on being an IDist, an ideologue, a propagandist for IDism, if you feel that's your protestant calling. You promote 'Big-ID' as an already religious believer in supernatural 'Intelligent Design.' No shame in admitting that, right?Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Upright BiPed @ 150:
#119
dream on.Mung
January 23, 2013
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Gregory: Thanks for the laughs! Conspiracies and plots all around . . . We'd better all watch out for that nefarious Big-ID! :)Eric Anderson
January 23, 2013
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@ #154 “Big ID” vs “Little ID” - W.J. Murray Get with the program, overcome your antiquation. Be a friend and seek knowledge instead of embracing ignorance. Properly: Big-ID vs. small-id or Upper-Case ID vs. lower-case id. If you don't recognise a difference of terms, then that is a problem. The statement "I have a mind" differs from "God has a Mind." Do you or do you not agree? Read theologically: univocal predication. I'm aware of the worldview-bias of the New World Encyclop(a)edia. What are you ready to admit about Big-ID theory?Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Gregory wrote: ' Then Timaeus might want to actually face KN’s honest and insightful observation regarding Big-ID: “My chief complaint against design theory, given what I know of it, is that it collapses the organism/artifact distinction.” ' But of course, if he is reading my discussion with KN carefully, instead of superficially skimming it, he will know that I did in fact "face" KN's observation: [From 100 above] "I agree that the next step — the crucial step — the step that moves from television sets on Mars to complex organic systems — is debatable. And it doesn’t bother me when when TEs or atheists or others (sensible “neutrals” like yourself) point out the dissimilarities between organic systems and artificial ones, and raise the question whether the inference can be straightforwardly applied. That’s a reasonable caution, the sort of caution that we see in any good philosopher. (If only all the bloggers and commenters and popular book-writers wrote with your calm and sobriety about these things!) "At the same time, the similarities between organic systems and artificial ones are strong as well ..." [See the rest of 100 for details] How is such a response "failing to face" KN's observation? Gregory can disagree with my further arguments, but he cannot accuse me failing to face anything. In fact, I have consistently praised KN here, and treated him as a fresh voice and the kind of critic that ID needs. I'm not repelling him, but inviting him to continue in his rigorous testing of ID claims. If all ID critics had been like KN from the beginning, the history of the culture wars over ID would be quite different; but instead, we got partisan hacks like Miller, Scott, Collins, Giberson, Coyne, Myers, Moran, Dawkins etc. As for the big-ID vs. small-id distinction, I think we are all weary of it. Months (or was it years?) ago, I somewhere granted something to the effect that big-ID referred to official statements of Discovery etc., and small-id referred to a general affirmation of design. I didn't mean the distinction as anything grand or eternal, but just as a working distinction in a particular conversation. But Gregory keeps trying to use the distinction as some sort of official distinction that I and all ID proponents are bound by in the future. That's ridiculous. Gregory is failing to distinguish between what one says in tentative and exploratory conversation and what one publishes in an academic setting; statements are made with differing degrees of care and precision. And in any case, no one here on UD is bound to accept any distinction I made months or years ago. I couldn't enforce the distinction Gregory is talking about even if I wanted to. I wish he would give it a rest. Nobody wants to talk about big versus small ID/id here. What people want to talk about is whether intelligent design in nature is detectable. Gregory has already repeatedly indicated that he has no interest in that question, that he just accepts design on faith (the typical TE position), and that he wants to talk about human designs and social science and Marshall McLuhan and Discovery's religious motivations and about anything other than the writings and arguments of Behe, Meyer, Dembski etc. on biology, biochemistry, mathematics, and design detection. So the question is why he keeps posting here, when he knows that everyone here wants to have a conversation that he isn't interested in. Does he actually think he is going to get everyone here to stop talking about the origin of life, CSI, random mutations, probability and information theory, etc.? If not, then what is his goal? To establish that everyone here is badly confused for even being interested in such questions? If so, should we, in turn, start haunting social science sites and tell all the participants there that they are badly confused for even being interested in social scientific questions, and that they should really be talking about design in nature? That would be a fair response, wouldn't it? Gregory's goals in these discussions remain opaque. However, I've already suggested a way that he could be very useful to all of us here, and gain our rapt attention. He is apparently the only person regularly posting here who has attended a Discovery summer session. He has referred to the experience on several occasions. It would be very useful for all of us to have a blow-by-blow description (Day 1, Day 2, etc.) of his experience there: what he studied, what books he read, who the teachers were, what the teaching format was, who his fellow-students were (and what they are doing now -- did some of them go on to become famous ID proponents, or scientists, or writers?), etc. And what he thought were the strengths and weaknesses of the program, and what suggestions he has for its improvement. I suspect that I wouldn't be the only one here that would be glad to have such an account. If he prefers, he could publish it on a site of his own, and link to it here. It would be a real service to the discussion here, because it would be a presentation of firsthand personal experience that would be otherwise inaccessible to us.Timaeus
January 23, 2013
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Gregory regarding the quote
This house holds that Big-ID is a category error that is trying to force ‘design’ by ‘intelligence’ into fields of study in which it does not properly belong, i.e. biology and genetics.
if you agree with this, then, do you agree that no biotech company could patent/copyright anything they develop in a genome, and could not challenge anyone in court who uses their designs?es58
January 23, 2013
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Understood, your pseudo-scientific religious apologetics in #159, Axel. (Goodness, friend, I was very recently visiting the Holy Sepulchre and you talk about the Shroud and 'direct physical evidence'!!!!!) "scientific evidence for theism" - Axel Yes, that is part of the meaning of Big-ID. Bravo! Oops, but IDists claim that Big-ID theory is *only natural science* and that it provides no "scientific evidence for theism." My position for almost a decade has been that "Big-ID is quite obviously a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation first and foremost." It seems that you agree with me, even if you won't openly say it at UD. So go have a Big-ID-MMA battle for yourselves and come back when there's a winner. You're not ranked high enough for most people to pay attention so far. Just give us the results when they're ready, o.k.? "Gregory, there is a genuine poignancy about your lament" - Axel Thank goodness someone in America seems to understand something!Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Gregory's blog:
This house holds that Big-ID is a category error that is trying to force ‘design’ by ‘intelligence’ into fields of study in which it does not properly belong, i.e. biology and genetics.
Why doesn't Big-ID properly belong in biology and genetics? It is obvious that biology and genetics were Intelligently Designed. So to exclude Big-ID from those fields would be the category error. BTW Gregory, ID (BIG or small) has nothing to do with God/ the divine.Joe
January 23, 2013
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Don't find an excuse to shirk it, Greg.Axel
January 23, 2013
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@ #156 Check the link in #155 to educate yourself about my views of 'small-id' vs. 'Big-ID,' and those of Gingerich and other Christians who accept limited evolutionary theories. Even so, you still have not adopted the proper punctuation, so it is obvious that you don't recognise the importance of the distinction. Big-ID is unequivocally *not* something employed by humans. Contra this clear and effective realisation, Big-ID is a theory promoted by Johnson, Thaxton, Meyer, Dembski, Wells, Nelson, et. al. without a single 'heroic-genius' innovator. It regurgitates on analogies with human-made things. Fine-tuning is a separate issue, which many small-id believers accept. One needn't 'believe' in Big-ID to accept fine-tuning. That's actually quite an important point. Yes, it seems there are some erroneous notions about Big-ID that you need to be disabused from. As a graduate of the DI's summer program of Big-ID and as a post-Big-IDist, there is something that perhaps you have still to learn, which I already understand quite clearly. No hiding anymore out of fear of being 'expelled.' I am glad to hear that you are open "to be corrected of any faulty assumptions and reasoning." (But I expect Timaeus to waffle as a pseudo-IDM proponent, rhetoric and sophistry being his common trade, self-admittedly marginal IDist because of his views, who actually doesn't 'dogmatically' advocate Big-ID as a natural scientific proof.) Maybe you will come to realise that your statement "I know that intelligent design as humans employ it" makes little sense since “There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things.”Gregory
January 23, 2013
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'Axel in #129 perhaps displays this attitude best: “Indeed, atheism, itself, now has zero scientific credential, the case for theism, and now Christianity being, effectively irrefutable.” Case closed in Big-ID’s favour. Christians win! Atheists lose. Don’t doubt it anyone reading a single letter of thought or unthought-out text at UD. Long live Big-ID theory!' Well, you know, Gregory, there is a genuine poignancy about your lament, the reason for which I can't quite put my finger on. Unless it's that you fear being specific about any of the abundance of scientific evidence for theism which BA77, alone, now almost routinely posts, in the vain hope that maybe just one atheist might post saying, 'Gee, I didn't realise PHYSICS has taken us to this point. Wow! Wow! I mean I can't argue with such an abundance of UNDISPUTED, empirical findings by physicists. It doesn't take much to join the dots'; instead of 'SPAM! SPAM! All that tired, old stuff!' Though I haven't heard that for a while. But you can make a start, Greg. You can set the ball rolling, by viewing these YouTube video clips of the latest findings relating to the Shroud of Turin, and via a link, the Sudarium of Oviedo.: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_voTiCTqv4Q http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcKTkjWkqEU It seems to me that there are only two possibilities: a) It is genuine and all points to the Resurrection of Christ, without any kind of competing thesis however anecdotal having been advanced (I don't think Osiris is a viable alternative). And as if the direct physical evidence were not enough, the Shroud and the Sudarium, matching perfectly, are mutually corroborative; b) It is all a hoax perpetrated by a cabal of fraudulent scientists (ironical in view of the evidence that there was indeed such a conspiracy to conceal and misrepresent the evidence for the authenticity of the Shroud.)Axel
January 23, 2013
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I just read the your linked article about "big ID and little ID". My argument obviously has nothing to do with "Big ID" as that article defines it.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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Okay, I just read the "Big ID vs Small ID" blogWilliam J Murray
January 23, 2013
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Honestly, Gregory, I have no idea what you mean by "Big-ID" other than perhaps whether or not the ID as demonstrated and employed by humans can be successfully extrapolated into an arbiting differential towards discerning (as "best explanation") whether or not biological phenomena or "fine tuning" constants would meet the criteria for having been intelligently designed. If I need to be disabused of some erroneous notion about ID, and you think Timaeus is the fellow to do it I heartily encourage him to do so. I'm always anxious to be corrected of any faulty assumptions and reasoning.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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"you have never defined big ID small ID in a coherent and comprehensive way" - StephenB Eat my links, StephenB. I did this months ago. Obviously you're either not paying attention or too lazy to read. Go there to offer your opposition, if you have something valid to share. UD seems to be too comfortable a site for IDists to express their actual thoughts when directly challenged. Here Come back when you've digested something outside of Big-ID fantasy land, otherwise your hype is nothing more than noise. Hint: your language choice of "small ID" makes no sense. 'small' means 'non-capitalised,' which requires 'id' not 'ID.' You capitalise "I" and "D" and call it "small," which makes no sense. Why? Are you hearing this legitimate distinction (Gingerich and many others) or purposely ignoring it in order to defend the fantastic ideology of IDism? To your clear and direct question to me, I am both a forward thinker and a backward thinker. I am a scholar that studies human-made things, which eclipse the minimal claims of small-id 'intelligent design.' Big-ID theory, according to Stephen C. Meyer who is a backward OoL-oriented thinker, is *only* a 'historical science' (which is highly questionable as even a 'science' at all). What kind of 'science' do people here posit is Big-ID theory *other* than a historical one? "how do we separate motives from methods?" - StephenB Yes, StephenB, seemingly orthodox Catholic Big-ID proponent, you should by now be ready to step to the plate and offer an answer to this. I'm already well-ahead of you, even as an academic to your amateurism. And everyone I've met in the IDM (including most ID-leaders from Dembski to Meyer to Wells to Nelson) refuses point-blank to directly answer this question. They are dehumanising as a bunch, non-humanitarians as they are by trade and background. (Yet an unsuprising hint, I'm not going to answer your question here on your own ideological turf, as if I owe anything to the Big-ID/IDM in forming my non-Big-ID views.) Yes, "It is time for you to define your terms," StephenB, W.J. Murray, with the help of pseudo-'Timaeus,' and not to depend on someone outside of the IDM like myself, who purposefully, rationally and faithfully rejects Big-ID natural scientism to speak directly to this weakness in Big-ID theory. Will you or anyone at UD answer this call?Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Gregory said:
Human beings create, build, make, dream, interpret, intuit, imagine, innovate, elaborate, etc. To ‘reduce’ *all* of those things into a narrow small-id ‘intelligent design’ THEORY is of course a joke.
Perhaps a better course of action in the future is to simply ask someone what they mean when they use a term. When I use the term "ID", I'm referring to (as it says in the New World Encyclopedia):
ID focuses on just those sorts of complex patterns that in human experience are produced by a mind that conceives and executes a plan.
I have a mind that conceives and executes plans - matching means towards an end. That is what I mean by ID, and is the root of ID theory (not dreams, intuition, elaborations, etc.) This is the obvious difference I refer to when I compare battleships and piles of rocks; this is what I am referring to when I talk about quantifying the differential. Not dreams, aspirations and elaborations, but the specific capacity of a mind to match means to end and execute a plan towards achieving that goal. Please note that your view of "Big ID" vs "Little ID" is not listed in the New World Encyclopedia online. Since I'm the one that made the argument in the O.P., it's how I define ID that is relevant to my argument, not how you happen to define it.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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#143 KF = sheer exaggeration, pseudo-scientism. I'm not namecalling or 'strawmannising,' but speaking truth to falsely held beliefs. Categories have value for communicative purposes and the distinction between small-id and Big-ID theory is a valid one, supported and even initiated by Timaeus here at UD. Because many of you UD-IDists seem to trust 'Timaeus' about Big-ID because he is a thinker who happens to be a PhD-holding IDist, perhaps you should think again about whether distinguishing small-id from Big-ID makes an important distinction in 'science, philosophy, theology/worldview discourse' or not. Gingerich and the vast majority of Abrahamic believers reject Big-ID but support small-id, though they don't feel any compulsion to call it small-id. They believe "God created the heavens and the earth." Big-IDists want to wrestle with Darwin and Dawkins on this stage to seemingly prove they are not simply empty evangelical minds and hearts in the 21st century. That most people at UD can't even commit themselves to admiting that Big-ID *is* properly a 'science, philosophy, theology/worldview' discourse by itself speaks VOLUMES. "I have in fact showed just how the FSCO/I approach can be quantified" - KF Hogwash. All that's been supposed is pseudo-quantification without displaying actual numbers regarding human-made things. I asked a very simple question in #118. KF has not yet made a serious attempt to quantify his small-id/Big-ID theory with numbers. What are the numerical values/probabilities of 1), 2) and 3)? KairosFocus conveniently dodged a simple quantifiable answer in 121, 122 & 124. How long will we wait to hear his speculation? Numbers only please, what's the FSCO/I of 1), 2) or 3) above? I asked very specifically and KF should be able to understand my direct question, if he expects to be taken seriously. Somehow, I don't think he expects to be taken seriously by legitimate scholars. He is not at a qualified scientific level himself and thus is claiming proofs that he cannot actually deliver. His bluff is easily called! At least he could tell me that he's working on it, rather than just proudly positing that his quantification of human-made things (both origins and processes) is what he fantasises Big-ID theory is actually small-d 'designed' to address. Note to the wise and informed: it isn't. As mentioned above, Timaeus (from what he has already written) is quite easily able to refute W.J. Murray's human-made small-id as if it qualifies as non-human-made Big-ID at UD, that is, if Timaeus has intellectual integrity to educate his fellow IDists. If he doesn't, then that's the reality of two-faced (Wedge-like) life in the IDM. Timaeus has already said: "I agree that “we can infer that this *artifact* is designed” is circular." How much further will he go? IDists here at UD seem to be only able to accept truths if they are spoken by other ideological IDists. So let us await further clarification from Timaeus, who has already conceded that he 'isn't dogmatic' about whether or not Big-ID qualifies as 'scientific' or not.Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Gregory @118 Inasmuch as you have never defined big ID small ID in a coherent and comprehensive way, I think you should dispense with those terms until you can explain what you mean when you use those expressions. On one occasion, you wrote this:
For me and Gingerich and others, the term ‘small-id’ refers to the idea that “God-did-it,” but that we don’t know exactly how and ‘science-alone’ cannot prove it one way or another. This is accepted by a vast majority of TEers and ECers. Indeed, it is the basic Muslim, Christian, Jewish and Baha’i view of the Creation of the Universe.
Well, excuse me but that definition tells me almost nothing about small ID. Is it faith based? Does it move forward from cause to effect, that is, does it ASSUME something about God and then interpret nature in that context? OR Is it reason based? Does it move backward from effect to cause, that is, does it OBSERVE something interesting in nature and theorize how that might have come to be? Each approach has a pedigree that goes back over two thousand years. We notice the “forward” approach in Tertullian, Augustine, Bonaventure, and Anselm. Augustine described it best with the phrase, “faith seeking understanding.” With these thinkers, the investigation was faith-based. By contrast, we discover the “backward” orientation in Aristotle, Aquinas, and Paley. Aristotle’s argument, which begins with “motion in nature” and reasons BACK to a “prime mover” — i.e. from effect to its “best” causal explanation — is obviously empirically based. So, I ask you a very simple question. Which of these two formulations are you referring to when you use the term small ID? If you are referring to the faith-based approach, why do you ignore the reason-based approach? Or, if you are referring to both approaches, why do you try to integrate two opposite world views as if they belonged in the same category? BIG ID
Big-ID otoh refers to Discovery Institute as heart of a Movement as well as the view that ‘design/Design’ can be (and even has been!) proven by natural scientific methods, which is promoted by the intelligent design/Intelligent Design movement (or community). Here one has to use both not-capitalized and capitalized forms of id/ID because the IDM or Big-ID community uses both variants whenever they believe it suits them.
So, is this category to include both the “movement” and the “methodology?” If so, then how do we separate motives from methods? Or, is the definition calculated to conflate motive mongering with scientific inferences so that the former will always be reduced to the latter? It is time for you to define your terms. This is, after all, the very first condition for engaging in a rational dialogue. If you are going to write 1000+ word posts about small ID and Big ID, you really ought to know what you mean when you use those terms.StephenB
January 23, 2013
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