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A Simple Argument For Intelligent Design

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Intelligent Design
specified complexity
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When I come across a new idea, I like to see if there are any relatively simple and obvious arguments that can be levied for or against it.  When I first came across ID, this is the simple argument I used that validated it – IMO – as a real phenomenon and a valid scientific concept.

Simply put, I know intelligent design exists – humans (at least, if not other animals) employ it.  I use it directly.   I know that intelligent design as humans employ it can (but not always) generate phenomena that are easily discernible as products of intelligent design.  Anyone who argues that a battleship’s combination of directed specificity and/or complexity is not discernible from the complexity found in the materials after an avalanche is either committing intellectual dishonesty or willful self-delusion – even if the avalanche was deliberately caused, and even if the rocks were afterward deliberately rearranged to maintain their haphazard distribution.

Some have argued that we only “recognize” human design, and that such recognition may not translate to the intelligent design of non-human intelligence.  The easy answer to that is that first, we do not always recognize the product of human design. In fact, we often design things to have a natural appearance. That we may not recognize all intelligent design is a given and simply skirts the issue of that which we can recognize.

Second, it is again either delusion or dishonesty to ignore a simple hypothetical exercise: in some cases, were we to find certain kinds of objects/phenomena [edited for clarity] on distant,  uninhabited and otherwise desolate planets, would we be able to infer that such  were most likely specifically designed by intelligent creatures of some sort for some purpose?

Again, the obvious answer to this except in cases of delusion or or dishonesty is “yes”.   Then the question becomes: without a scientifically valid means of making such a determination, how would one be made? Intuition? Common sense? Is the recognizable difference between such artifacts and those that appear to be natural not a quantifiable commodity? If not, how do we go about making the case that something we find on such a planet is not a naturally-occurring phenomena, especially in cases that are not so obvious?  There must be some scientifically-acceptable means of making such a determination – after all, resources committed to research depend upon a proper categorical determination; it would quite wasteful attempting to explain a derelict alien spacecraft in terms of natural processes – time and money better spent trying to reverse engineer the design for practical use and attempting to discern the purpose of its features.

Thus, after we make the determination that said object/phenomenon is the product of intelligent design, our investigatory heuristic is different from what it would be were we to assume the artifact is not intelligently designed.  A scientific, categorical distinction is obviously important in future research.

The idea that there is no discernible or quantifiable difference between some products of ID and what nature produces without it, or that such a determination is irrelevant, is absurd. One might argue that the method by which ID proponents make the differential evaluation between natural and product of ID (FSCI, dFSCI, Irreducible Complexity, Semiotic System) is incorrect or insufficient, but one can hardly argue such a difference doesn’t exist or is not quantifiable in some way, nor can they argue that it makes no difference to the investigation.  One can hardly argue, IMO, that those attempts to scientifically describe that difference are unreasonable, because they obviously point at least in spirit to that which obviously marks the difference.  IMO, the argument cannot be against ID in spirit, but rather only about the best way to scientifically account for the obvious difference between some cases of ID and otherwise naturally-occurring phenomena, whether or not that “best accounting” indicts some phenomena as “product of design” that many would prefer not to be the case.

The only intellectually honest position is to admit ID exists; that there is some way to describe the differential in a scientific sense to make useful categorical distinctions (as “best explanation”), and then to accept without ideological preference when that differential is used to make such a determination.  If the best explanation for biological life is that it was intelligently designed, then so be it; this should be of no more concern to any true scientist than if a determination is made that some object found on a distant planet was intelligently designed, or if a feature on Mars is best explained as the product of water erosion.  To categorically deny ID as a valid, scientific explanatory category (arrowheads?  geometric patterns found via Google Earth? battleships? crop circles? space shuttle? potential alien artifacts?) is ideological absurdity.

Comments
Gregory @ 147 Please explain, clearly, the precise line between big ID and small ID, and exactly how we'll know it when we see it. If aliens designed the life on this planet (as Dawkins specifically stated it in the movie "Expelled: Not Intelligence Allowed", how would we know? Thankses58
January 23, 2013
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#119 ;)Upright BiPed
January 23, 2013
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Sorry, folks, I meant to quote es58's #144: 'if not, how can he know it’s an illusion, if yes, where is his definition and method if neither, what’s he talking about?' It’s intuitive, es58. Not ‘counter-intuitive, this time. But just as barmy, unless he can develop an empirical rationale. But he ‘feels it in his water’, anyway, so that’s OK.Axel
January 23, 2013
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It's intuitive, es58. Not 'counter-intuitive, this time. But just as barmy, unless he can develop an empirical rationale. But he 'feels it in his water', anyway, so that's OK.Axel
January 23, 2013
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#146 demonstrates how W.J. Murray has little understanding of what a supposedly 'scientific theory' actually is. Human beings create, build, make, dream, interpret, intuit, imagine, innovate, elaborate, etc. To 'reduce' *all* of those things into a narrow small-id 'intelligent design' THEORY is of course a joke. Worse, to elevate small-id into Big-ID via univocal predication is quite unexcusable. Yet here is what W.J. Murray saying as if people should conflate in unison with him from organisms to artefacts: "I know that intelligent design as [because] humans employ it..." That's surely not a 'natural scientific' statement. Far too many people rational and intelligent would not accept such presumptuous language outside of a narrow worldview community.Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Human beings don’t ‘employ intelligent design.’
Well, that sentiment does help explain certain posts.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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F/N: It should be plain that -- as is stated in post 115 ins o many words: "Chi_500 = I*S – 500, bits beyond the solar system threshold." -- the metric is explicitly in bits, beyond a threshold of complexity (and as assessed by a criterion of specificty or I*S = 0), as stated. Information is normally measured in bits, based on Hartley's log measure or extensions to that over the past 80-odd years. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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found it:
es58June 21, 2007 at 9:30 am Dawkins is quoted as saying that design in living things is an illusion. Does this not imply that he maintains: -) there is a rigorous definition for design -) there is a way to detect design if not, how can he know it’s an illusion, if yes, where is his definition and method if neither, what’s he talking about?
es58
January 23, 2013
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Gregory: Pardon, but namecalling and strawmannising do not answer to an issue on the merits. It should be beneath your dignity to resort to such tactics, please do better next time. Not to mention, I have in fact showed just how the FSCO/I approach can be quantified, through a live example. KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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mung @ 133
What does it mean to say that living things have the appearance of design?
I wish I could search better, but, at some point, the ability of the search function on this site failed me. But, at some time years ago, I posted here that Dawkins somehow got a free pass by saying that life appears designed, without ever having to rigorously define design, and that he then gets mileage against ID proponents by saying they can't rigorously define an approach to design detection.es58
January 23, 2013
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Surreal, isn't it, Mung? Dawkins forswearing his scientism for the other extreme, the most arcane mystagogy, about which, seemingly, no man dare speak. Keep your steenkin' appearance of design! Who needs an empirical 'take' in scientific investigations!Axel
January 23, 2013
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'What a meticulously probing, devious,.. nasty mind....' I missed out 'pertinacious', Mung.Axel
January 23, 2013
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Gregory, how about this for Intelligent Design? And a universally personal design with regard to mankind, to boot. Physical light either on its own initiative, or via an agency (which, for fear of causing 'alarm and despondency' in the High Temple of Scientism, shall remain nameless) unfailingly tracks all mobile members of the human race, to check which of the latter are threatening to move in the same direction as itself, at a constant speed. Having verified - a ceaseless ongoing process - which individuals threaten to do so, Mr Physical Light or its agency unfailingly ensures that whatever the speed said individuals are travelling at, Mr Physical Light reaches each one of them at the one constant speed, irrespective of their own, multifarious, constant speeds of travel. Could you please explain to us, Greg, how such remarkable omniscience, (for, surely, something approaching that is required) and evidently commensurate power, does not irrefutably require an intelligent design, purpose, plan, agenda, on the part of Mr Physical Light or his agency?Axel
January 23, 2013
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'But he believes natural processes can create the appearance of design. And if you don’t know what it is, if you can’t actually quantify it, how can you say that evolutionary processes can generate it? The anti-ID case, as it stands, is incoherent.' ---- What a meticulously probing, devious, and from a UDer's viewpoint, nasty, mind you have, esteemed Mung; holding Dawkins' feet to the fire, like that...!Axel
January 23, 2013
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O.k. so, a universalistic FSCO/I 'inference' by a blogger, non-academic, that dare not be quantified. Wow!? And you think serious scientists should wake up and pay attention to such an 'inferential' ideology? Notice that KF avoided giving an answer to my simple p.s. question: what's the metric, just numbers please? KF simply cannot now quantify the hypothetical 'FSCO/I' of 1), 2) or 3) in my question above. And he will not ever in his lifetime. Yes, obviously I see that "a[n] NFL team is a highly complex...system." But that has *nothing* to do with IDM Big-ID theory. Natural scientists predominantly don't study NFL teams (unless you count physiotherapy as a 'naturalistic science')! Folks, why doesn't KF understand this? Direct answer: conflation, as KN rightly identifies it above. Can Timaeus step-in and educate KF on this topic? Will he? Probably not because of 'movement' loyalties. "Obviously, once something has been classified as an artifact, it’s analytically true, or “true by definition,” that it was made by some intelligent being. So the inference from artifact to artificer is vacuously true." - Kantian Naturalist (#4) W.J. Murray's response to me displays one of many reasons why IDM/Big-ID rubs most people the wrong way. First, I am not an atheist. Second, I didn't say "ID is a religious conspiracy." W.J. Murray, however, seems to think its o.k. to put words in peoples' mouths and to believe that is ethical. Why? His "I know that intelligent design as humans employ it..." is so contrary to Big-ID theory (which is oriented towards OoL, OoBI and 'human origins') that no-one here at UD will likely pick up on it. It is simply too obvious, like the nose on one's face. As said above: "There simply is no Big-ID theory of human-made things!" Human beings don't 'employ intelligent design.' We breath, think, dance, drink, eat, write, walk, work, speak, etc. There is ZERO need to subsume all of that under a so-called small-id THEORY of 'intelligent design.' It really doesn't seem that W.J. Murray understands what a scholarly/scientific 'theory' actually is and what kind of paradigm shift Big-ID theory is not or even might not be...because of his dogmatic commitment to speaking in the conflated concept duo small/Big-id/ID. Organisms and artefacts are by some people at UD both 'designed' and 'Designed' because - well, just because they are and must be - darn it all, anyone who is not "ignorant, stupid or insane" *should* recognise this. Right? Only idiots could possibly reject W.J. Murray's "simple argument for ID." Well, that is, except for the vast majority of reasonable and faithful Abrahamic monotheists who reject Big-ID theory for its 'natural scientism.' They all know that there is no Big-ID theory of human-made things, that FSCO/I has less than no reputation or relevance in human-social sciences, and that fantasies aside, no scholar worth his or her salt would back Big-ID theory as a quantification metric regarding human-made things. Big-ID theory is simply an imbalanced, incomplete and insufficient attempt to overturn naturalism and materialism in 21st c. American society. Axel in #129 perhaps displays this attitude best: "Indeed, atheism, itself, now has zero scientific credential, the case for theism, and now Christianity being, effectively irrefutable." Case closed in Big-ID's favour. Christians win! Atheists lose. Don't doubt it anyone reading a single letter of thought or unthought-out text at UD. Long live Big-ID theory!Gregory
January 23, 2013
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Mung @133: Excellent point.Eric Anderson
January 23, 2013
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Gregory:
KF’s attempted universalisation of FSCO/I is the most direct example – we can observe human (small-d) designers in the designing processes of artefacts, thus thwarting his universalistic FSCO/I claims.
That's why it's just an inference. And there are numerous items believed to be artifacts that we have never directly observed anyone making, and yet we still infer design. How so?Mung
January 23, 2013
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Gregory:
Big-ID is quite obviously a science, philosophy, theology/worldview conversation first and foremost.
So? I take it you likewise reject Fine-Tuning arguments in that they are also BIG ID (BOO!).Mung
January 23, 2013
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Thanks Axel, and I really mean this as a very serious question for ID critics. It's another question I like to ask them in addition to asking what they would accept as evidence in favor of ID.
What does it mean to say that living things have the appearance of design?
IOW, Dawkins believes in design detection. But he believes natural processes can create the appearance of design. And if you don't know what it is, if you can't actually quantify it, how can you say that evolutionary processes can generate it? The anti-ID case, as it stands, is incoherent.Mung
January 23, 2013
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JG Okay this is indeed quite relevant to Mr Paley's thought. The case I addresed is one that adds tot he test cases. It also shows that a fair amount of empirical investigation may be needed in a given case, you will note how I used rough first pass estimates, 64 control points per circuit, 64 half-points per circuit etc. I would think the case would need more precise inputs and actual experiment for more marginal cases, but remember the implication of the rough try is that just one well filed ring in a rock that fits a specification that is reasonable, would suffice to indicate design. And BTW, I left off the smoothness of the rock itself, if the rock has been shaped to a precise and identifiable curve that leads to a mesh of nodes that could then be seen as info rich. In short, even a smooth rectangular block, without writing on it, so long as this is not a crystal face, would be an indication of shaping to a specification. (VJT in fact examined such a case way back when.) KFkairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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KF Thanks for referencing my stones - I should point out the surrounding landscape for the finding of both stones is, indeed, heathland, so Rev Paley might well have stubbed his toe on them, and been disappointed they weren't watches. On the face of it, your metric ought to be of considerable practical value in the non-controversial area of deciding whether an object is an artifact or a natural objet trouvé. My examples, intuitively, are clearly worked deliberately, but what if similarly non-contexted objects were less regularly patterned? "Was this rock decorated by an hitherto unknown race of interglacial immigrants, or is it just ice-weathered?" Could your methodology settle a dispute between an archaeologist's and a geologist's conflicting intuitions on the the matter? If so, it would be useful science, weighing the balance for or against the timing of the earliest inhabitants of (in this case) Essex. The thread is clearly looking for comment on the general applicability of such a metric, for which there must surely be a wealth of non-controversial applications. So it's hard to see why your comments should provoke any discussions about ID-ology ideology at all: you've answered the question of the OP with the application of a metric in a real case. Was it valid? How valid would it be in a more marginal case? Only after that is there any issue about whether it would be applicable to extra-terrestrial objects or living things (a) as they themselves make "artifacts" like beaver dams or (b) as they are themselves seen as possible "artifacts". But if the methodology were established regarding human artifacts, one would have, surely, to justify its inapplicability elsewhere, because "the appearance of design" would then have a mathematical, and testable, basis. But this thread needn't go there at all.Jon Garvey
January 23, 2013
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F/N: Demonstration of the intelligent design of battleships. Ladies and Gentlemen), courtesy Adm Jack Fisher, I give you, HMS Dreadnought, built in "a year and a day." Motto: "Fear God and dread nought!" KF PS: make sure to watch the vid!kairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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LT, until you and Gregory watch the YouTube videos on the latest findings concerning the Shroud of Turin, and the Sudarium of Oviedo, and report back on your conclusion, you are wasting people's time on here, presuming to address the question of Big ID. You are simply not competent. Indeed, atheism, itself, now has zero scientific credential, the case for theism, and now Christianity being, effectively irrefutable.Axel
January 23, 2013
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Onlookers please note: A very simple, straightforward and obvious argument is presented that leaves out any argument about biology or universal fine tuning, for the purpose of establishing the basic ground for the debate in non-controversial terms. Namely, using known human ID as a reference (battleships) and the trivial obviousness of its difference from non-organic, natural objects/phenomenon, the question is posed if (1) that difference can in principle be quantified, and (2) if that method of differential can in principle be used as inference to best explanation in the case of an alien "artifact" found on an otherwise uninhabited and desolate world. To paraphrase the responses: Graham2: "In terms of ID, there is no quantifiable difference between a battleship and a pile of rocks." Graham2: "In terms of ID, I have no idea if in principle there is a quantifiable difference between a battleship and a pile of rocks." LarTanner: "I'm avoiding answering your questions." LarTanner: "I need you to demonstrate that battleships are the product of intelligent design." Gregory: "ID is a religious conspiracy."William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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.. an incredibly useful exercise, and it would obviously be compelling evidence in LT's eyes.Axel
January 23, 2013
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' What does it mean to say that living things have the appearance of design? What does it mean to say that an internet blog post has the appearance of design?' Again, Mung. You're on fire!Axel
January 23, 2013
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LarTanner:
You know, I wish this site would spend much more time demonstrating how to make such inferences.
OK: Yes, Intelligent Design is both testable and falsifiable. Intelligent Design relies on Newton's First Rule, meaning agencies are only added when REQUIRED. Therefor to refute ID and any given design inference all one has to do is step up and demonstrate that blind and undirected processes can account for it. IOW all evos have to do to stop ID cold is to actually step up and A) produce a testable hypothesis for their position and B) produce positive, supporting evidence. However all evos can do is cry foul and say "blind, undirected processes is a strawman!"- yet it is a given that natural selection, genetic drift and HGT are all blind, purposeless processes and all mutations are undirected-> that is given the current theory of evolution. IOW evos are so clueless they don't even understand the theory they try to defend! So there you have it - just start supporting your position and ID will go away. How is ID tested? As in positive evidence? 1- See above as the way to the design inference is THROUGH the blind watchmaker 2- The criteria for inferring design in biology is, as Michael J. Behe, Professor of Biochemistry at Leheigh University, puts it in his book Darwin ' s Black Box:"Our ability to be confident of the design of the cilium or intracellular transport rests on the same principles to be confident of the design of anything: the ordering of separate components to achieve an identifiable function that depends sharply on the components.” So if nature, operating freely cannot account for it AND it meets that criteria, some agency is required and we infer design (or at least agency involvement).Joe
January 23, 2013
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PPS: G, you also need to distinguish a sampling result from a precise probability calculation; I have pointed to a severe limitation on sampling relative to space of configs, and what can be reasonably expected, a representation of the bulk, not the sort of narrow unrepresentative zones that are associated with functional specificity in a context of high complexity. Let us just say -- probably the earliest recorded design inference -- Moshe rejected as ridiculous the tale that the gold was tossed in the fire and the golden calf resulted by blind chance and necessity. And even on the subject of making probability estimates you would do well to consult the results of statistical mechanics and linked reaction kinetics in the OOL context, say as were outlined by TBO in TMLO in the 1980's.kairosfocus
January 23, 2013
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Gregory, Your concept of "Big ID vs Little ID" is nothing but a straw man here. ID is ID, regardless of what is employing it and in what case. Whether or not there is some conspiracy to sneak some supernatural theocratic groundwork into the classroom is entirely irrelevant to the point of my argument here and to the issue of its scientific relevance. Even if others may have created ID theory, or may use it, to advance some kind of social agenda, it is entirely irrelevant to arguments about its validity. My simple argument about ID was nothing other than using factually known and obvious cases of ID, extrapolated via a rather trivial alien artifact hypothetical, to demonstrate the unwillingness of the anti-ID community in admitting even the most blatantly and obvious cases of ID, and to reveal the absurdity of their attacks on attempts to quantify the ID vs natural differential. So, while you admit that human-generated ID (the basis of the entire ID position) is a trivial argument, and that other non-"supernatural" cases of ID detection are also not really an issue (alien artifact hypothetical), when it comes to establishing and utilizing a methodology more rigorous than intuition and applying it to that which may threaten your worldview (biology, fine-tuning of the universe), suddenly we've entered the realm of "Big ID", which you insist is completely different and somehow invalid simply because it might imply something you vaguely refer to as "supernatural" or because it might suit the purposes of some theocratic conspiracy. I do appreciate that you have apparently provided at least some of the motivation behind the intransigence that keeps so many from even admitting battleships as known cases of ID; many believe that ID theory is being used to thwart their particular ideological perspective and promote one they fear. So, by stonewalling, using straw man, appeals to motivation and conspiracy, or by simply refusing to answer simple questions, what this often boils down to in many cases is nothing more than theophobia.William J Murray
January 23, 2013
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PS: Do you not see that -- to pick one of your attempted dismissive examples as a slice of the cake with all the ingredients in it -- a NFL team is a highly complex and purposeful sociotechnical system full of functionally specific complex organisation on ever so many facets? Think about just the financial and accounting subsystems and linked tables or charts of organisation. The contracts are again FSCO/I rich, and ever so much more. We could in principle form a model framework and give a quantitative result but we would have long since passed the point of being obvious, this is yet another case where FSCO/I is recognisable and is known by direct observation and experience to trace to intelligence.kairosfocus
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