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A world-famous chemist tells the truth: there’s no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution

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Professor James M. Tour is one of the ten most cited chemists in the world. He is famous for his work on nanocars (pictured above, courtesy of Wikipedia), nanoelectronics, graphene nanostructures, carbon nanovectors in medicine, and green carbon research for enhanced oil recovery and environmentally friendly oil and gas extraction. He is currently a Professor of Chemistry, Professor of Computer Science, and Professor of Mechanical Engineering and Materials Science at Rice University. He has authored or co-authored 489 scientific publications and his name is on 36 patents. Although he does not regard himself as an Intelligent Design theorist, Professor Tour, along with over 700 other scientists, took the courageous step back in 2001 of signing the Discovery Institute’s “A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism”, which read: “We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

On Professor Tour’s Website, there’s a very revealing article on evolution and creation, in which Tour bluntly states that he does not understand how macroevolution could have happened, from a chemical standpoint (all bold emphases below are mine – VJT):

Although most scientists leave few stones unturned in their quest to discern mechanisms before wholeheartedly accepting them, when it comes to the often gross extrapolations between observations and conclusions on macroevolution, scientists, it seems to me, permit unhealthy leeway. When hearing such extrapolations in the academy, when will we cry out, “The emperor has no clothes!”?

…I simply do not understand, chemically, how macroevolution could have happened. Hence, am I not free to join the ranks of the skeptical and to sign such a statement without reprisals from those that disagree with me? … Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution? If so, I would like to sit with that person and be taught, so I invite them to meet with me.

In a more recent talk, entitled, Nanotech and Jesus Christ, given on 1 November 2012 at Georgia Tech, Professor Tour went further, and declared that no scientist that he has spoken to understands macroevolution – and that includes Nobel Prize winners! Here’s what he said when a student in the audience asked him about evolution:

I will tell you as a scientist and a synthetic chemist: if anybody should be able to understand evolution, it is me, because I make molecules for a living, and I don’t just buy a kit, and mix this and mix this, and get that. I mean, ab initio, I make molecules. I understand how hard it is to make molecules. I understand that if I take Nature’s tool kit, it could be much easier, because all the tools are already there, and I just mix it in the proportions, and I do it under these conditions, but ab initio is very, very hard.

I don’t understand evolution, and I will confess that to you. Is that OK, for me to say, “I don’t understand this”? Is that all right? I know that there’s a lot of people out there that don’t understand anything about organic synthesis, but they understand evolution. I understand a lot about making molecules; I don’t understand evolution. And you would just say that, wow, I must be really unusual.

Let me tell you what goes on in the back rooms of science – with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. I have sat with them, and when I get them alone, not in public – because it’s a scary thing, if you say what I just said – I say, “Do you understand all of this, where all of this came from, and how this happens?” Every time that I have sat with people who are synthetic chemists, who understand this, they go “Uh-uh. Nope.” These people are just so far off, on how to believe this stuff came together. I’ve sat with National Academy members, with Nobel Prize winners. Sometimes I will say, “Do you understand this?”And if they’re afraid to say “Yes,” they say nothing. They just stare at me, because they can’t sincerely do it.

I was once brought in by the Dean of the Department, many years ago, and he was a chemist. He was kind of concerned about some things. I said, “Let me ask you something. You’re a chemist. Do you understand this? How do you get DNA without a cell membrane? And how do you get a cell membrane without a DNA? And how does all this come together from this piece of jelly?” We have no idea, we have no idea. I said, “Isn’t it interesting that you, the Dean of science, and I, the chemistry professor, can talk about this quietly in your office, but we can’t go out there and talk about this?”

If you understand evolution, I am fine with that. I’m not going to try to change you – not at all. In fact, I wish I had the understanding that you have.

But about seven or eight years ago I posted on my Web site that I don’t understand. And I said, “I will buy lunch for anyone that will sit with me and explain to me evolution, and I won’t argue with you until I don’t understand something – I will ask you to clarify. But you can’t wave by and say, “This enzyme does that.” You’ve got to get down in the details of where molecules are built, for me. Nobody has come forward.

The Atheist Society contacted me. They said that they will buy the lunch, and they challenged the Atheist Society, “Go down to Houston and have lunch with this guy, and talk to him.” Nobody has come! Now remember, because I’m just going to ask, when I stop understanding what you’re talking about, I will ask. So I sincerely want to know. I would like to believe it. But I just can’t.

Now, I understand microevolution, I really do. We do this all the time in the lab. I understand this. But when you have speciation changes, when you have organs changing, when you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and time – not just one line – concerted lines, all at the same place, all in the same environment … this is very hard to fathom.

I was in Israel not too long ago, talking with a bio-engineer, and [he was] describing to me the ear, and he was studying the different changes in the modulus of the ear, and I said, “How does this come about?” And he says, “Oh, Jim, you know, we all believe in evolution, but we have no idea how it happened.” Now there’s a good Jewish professor for you. I mean, that’s what it is. So that’s where I am. Have I answered the question? (52:00 to 56:44)

Professor Tour’s online talk is absolutely fascinating as well as being deeply moving on a personal level, and I would strongly urge readers to listen to his talk in its entirety – including the questions after the talk. You won’t regret it, I promise you. One interesting little gem of information which I’ll reveal is that it was Professor Tour who was largely instrumental in getting Nobel Laureate Richard Smalley, winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry, to reject Darwinian evolution and accept Old Earth creationism, shortly before he died in 2005. It was Tour who persuaded Smalley to delve into the question of origins. After reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist).. Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death.

Strong words indeed, for a Nobel scientist. Readers can find out more about Professor Richard Smalley’s change of views here.

Why should we believe macroevolution, if nobody understands it?

Now that Professor Tour has informed the world that even Nobel Prize-winning scientists privately admit that they don’t understand macroevolution, a layperson is surely entitled to ask: “Well, if even they don’t understand it, then why should we believe it? How can we possibly be obliged to believe in a theory which nobody understands?”

That’s a good question. And it’s no use for Darwinists to trot out the standard “party line” that “even if we don’t yet understand how it happened, we still have enough evidence to infer that it happened.” At the very most, all that the current scientific evidence could establish is the common descent of living organisms. But that’s not macroevolution. Macroevolution requires more than a common ancestry for living organisms: it requires a natural mechanism which can generate the diversity of life-forms we see on Earth today from a common stock, without the need for any direction by an Intelligent Agent. But the mechanism is precisely what we don’t have evidence for. So the question remains: why should we believe in macroevolution?

The decline of academic freedom

Given the massive uncertainty about the “how” of macroevolution among scientists working in the field, you might think that a wide variety of views would be tolerated in the scientific arena – including the view that there is no such process as macroevolution. However, you would be sadly mistaken. As Professor Tour notes in his online article on evolution and creation, an alarming academic trend has emerged in recent years: a growing intolerance of dissent from Darwinism. This trend is so pronounced that Professor Tour now advises his students not to voice their doubts about Darwinism in public, if they want a successful career:

In the last few years I have seen a saddening progression at several institutions. I have witnessed unfair treatment upon scientists that do not accept macroevolutionary arguments and for their having signed the above-referenced statement regarding the examination of Darwinism. (I will comment no further regarding the specifics of the actions taken upon the skeptics; I love and honor my colleagues too much for that.) I never thought that science would have evolved like this. I deeply value the academy; teaching, professing and research in the university are my privileges and joys…

But my recent advice to my graduate students has been direct and revealing: If you disagree with Darwinian Theory, keep it to yourselves if you value your careers, unless, of course, you’re one of those champions for proclamation; I know that that fire exists in some, so be ready for lead-ridden limbs. But if the scientific community has taken these shots at senior faculty, it will not be comfortable for the young non-conformist. When the power-holders permit no contrary discussion, can a vibrant academy be maintained? Is there a University (unity in diversity)? For the United States, I pray that the scientific community and the National Academy in particular will investigate the disenfranchisement that is manifest upon some of their own, and thereby address the inequity.

It remains to be seen if other countries will allow their young scientists to think freely about the origin of life, and of the various species of organisms that we find on Earth today. What I will say, though, is that countries which restrict academic freedom will eventually be overtaken by countries which allow it to prosper. There is still time for America and Europe to throw off the dead hand of Darwinism in academic circles, and let their young people breathe the unaccustomed air of free speech once again.

(UPDATE: Here’s a link to my follow-up post, Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details. It amply refutes the simplistic charge, made by some skeptics, that Professor Tour was conflating macroevolution with the question of the origin of life.)

UD Editors:  This post has received a great deal of attention lately, so we are moving it back to the front page.

Comments
My father (who got his doctorate at Rice University) was shocked to see professors such as James Tour coming out of the closet and admitting that they have no idea how macroevolution happens. This is an exciting time for ID proponents! James Tour is not alone!ringo
June 17, 2014
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The question is asked: "Does anyone understand the chemical details behind macroevolution?" Indeed I say even God doesn't understand the chemical details behind macroevolution - because it's just not possible in our universe!Gentle Knight
May 21, 2014
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Thanks for your contribution, brorico. I read what you wrote in your linked blog. The atheists in the debate that you mentioned also have to have faith, because they have no way to prove that God doesn't exist---in fact, the evidence is quite to the contrary.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. Psalm 14 (KJV)
I respect people who try to find natural explanations because I believe that God created, designed, and uses nature. In many places, Genesis included, God creates things out of other things. To me, it's wonderful to discover and try to understand all the wonderful organisms and mechanisms that God created. Kind regards my brother, -QQuerius
April 8, 2014
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Wow - such passionate responses, I'm reeling from such a turn of wit as exampled by some of you. Alas, my point has been made and cannot be unread but looking over the responses, I think it safe to say any observations I made were somewhat understated. Peace out :) UD Editors: And our observation that you have apparently nothing to add to the discussion but sneers has been confirmed. Peace back atcha.Robbo
April 8, 2014
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@Robbo: Your profile name links directly to a medical page with nasty and not so nasty vaginas. Love the "Sexy virgins with monster fake dicks!" video!JWTruthInLove
April 7, 2014
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Whenever threads such as this erupt on a forum, there always seems to be a curious mix of agendas upheld from those who post. Some love to see their name up in lights but lack the appropriate degree of education to contribute positively, others know jack-sh!t but they remain undeterred as they babble on trying to look 'intelligent'. These people like to utilise words that 'look' good or give the impression the author knows what he / she is talking about - it actually accomplishes the opposite. There's an appropriate saying that seems to fit well, 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing' ... well, it may not be dangerous but it sure makes people look silly when it's obvious they have little to no clue as to what's relevant. The most pernicious agenda is the religious one because it subverts any ethos reliant upon reason and seeks to impose a set of rules and behaviours that is completely divorced from a rational approach. Faith begins where knowledge ends ... if you think about those five words, and I mean, really think about them, free from agenda, then the truth will begin to ooze out .... have fun !!! Peace ... UD Editors: Robbo, you missed your chance. You could have dropped a science bomb on the ID movement and obliterated it. For example, you could have shown a plausible naturalistic pathway from non-living to living things. Instead, you just sneered. A sneer is not an argument. Write that down. Robbo
April 7, 2014
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I would like to share may article regarding Evolution: http://theunprofitableblog.blogspot.com/2014/01/the-evolution-fraud.htmlbrorico
March 28, 2014
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Hi Roy, The hexagonal shapes are certainly due to the molding effect of the adjacent lenses, much the same as can be shown occurring when bees create the cells in a honeycomb. Without the tightly packed adjacent structures, they would be round as shown, and the corneal coverage is also dependent on the packing. You can see why the tessellations are hexagonal here: http://www.livescience.com/38242-why-honeybee-honeycombs-are-perfect.html Yes, I saw the variation in the internal boundary of the doublet lenses. I don't know how significant the boundary surface is and whether it's size dependent. Perhaps studying the formation of double calcite lenses in brittlestars, which have an amazing optical surface (fused?), might provide some clues. See http://www.nature.com/news/2001/010823/full/news010823-11.html
I have a vague memory that the reason proposed for why one group of arthropods survived one of the major extinctions was because it included species that had adapted to living in polar areas and their ability to ‘hibernate’ through six months of darkness gave them advantage in surviving atmospheric dust from impact or eruption blocking sunlight, while other creatures couldn’t.
This type of explanation, often found in textbooks, is highly speculative. How would we know whether trilobites hibernated or even needed sunlight? Take a look at this video concerning tadpole shrimp. I think you'll be as amazed as I was. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS_MCdverzE
Would that be what you meant by mechanical extinction?
Yes, non-uniformitarian changes from meteor impacts, widespread volcanism, dramatic changes in water turbidity, salinity, or temperature, mega floods and tsunamis, etc.
Evolution includes gross morphological changes, but it doesn’t require every species to undergo them. Just like geology includes the possibility of volcanic islands, but doesn’t require every lake to have one.
Right. But as you know, such gross changes are maintained by environmental changes. I'm not sure you'd be willing to say that there were no significant environmental changes over 250 million years (otherwise similar plants and animals wouldn't have gone extinct). Thus, the ability for what are popularly misnamed "living fossils" must be either due to some detectable genomic blessing, or extremely lucky sets of mutations at just the right times.
You’re casting everything in the light of becoming better, but as you rightly said about leaves there’s no perfect design since different environments have different requirements for survival, so evolution doesn’t necessarily mean becoming better, only becoming different.
Not intentionally . . . although for a relatively static environment, gross morphological changes would indeed tend to get better suited for that environment, hence better.
So how long would you expect an intelligent designer to take to progress from single-celled organisms to multicellular ones?
To answer your question directly, (A) I don't think it's necessarily "progress" to move from single-celled organisms to multi-cellular ones, and (B) Without preconceptions, a case can be made that the less genetically "streamlined" multicellular organisms came first. In a more realistic evolutionary model, it gets a lot more complicated since it's probably more correct to think of an evolving ecosystem (a sort of evolutionary version of succession) than merely the individual constituent species.
There’s a massive difference between the consequences of a single seeding of microscopic life vs the consequences of repeated seedings of diverse multicellular life-forms at different times.
I'd be interested in your thoughts why, especially assuming multiple seedings. Incidentally, you probably know that lab experiments on populations of simple ecosystems of microorganisms demonstrate that they are inherently unstable and require buffer species to survive. -QQuerius
March 17, 2014
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It's been interesting to see this thread continue; however, it doesn't seem that anyone has yet proposed how we might extrapolate from microevolution (which we don't fully understand) to some macro function (which we've never observed), or (in my opinion more likely) an unrelated mechanism for macroevolution that would help us fill the punctuated equilibrial gaps. There is not good reason to believe a lot of little changes add up to specified complexity over time. This is highly problematic hopeful thinking. Someone needs to instead propose a viable mechanism of quick broad evolutionary leaps. Also of interest, we have recently found a Milky Way -like dying galaxy whose entire cycle of birth to dying is shorter than half the proposed age of the earth: http://www.swin.edu.au/media-centre/news/2014/03/galaxies-in-the-early-universe-mature-beyond-their-years.html Let us not pretend that finds like these don't throw an enormous monkey wrench into our broader timetable presuppositions.jw777
March 16, 2014
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Querius:
The arrangements of the compound eyes show spectacular variation, but apparently not the design of the individual eyes, which I was referring to.
Again, your own source states that trilobite eyes varied in the external shape of the lens (hexagonal vs circular), the shape of the internal layer boundary, and the extent of corneal coverage.
Continued existence.
Yes, I think that’s much more reasonable. However, trilobites ceased to exist and tadpole shrimp continued to exist from that time to the present. I can’t observe any reason for this outside of mechanical extinction.
I have a vague memory that the reason proposed for why one group of arthropods survived one of the major extinctions was because it included species that had adapted to living in polar areas and their ability to 'hibernate' through six months of darkness gave them advantage in surviving atmospheric dust from impact or eruption blocking sunlight, while other creatures couldn't. Would that be what you meant by mechanical extinction?
Again you seem to think evolution requires that creatures evolve grossly different morphology. That’s not so.
So where did creatures with grossly different morphologies come from?
Evolution, of course. Evolution includes gross morphological changes, but it doesn't require every species to undergo them. Just like geology includes the possibility of volcanic islands, but doesn't require every lake to have one.
Precisely because we can observe variation, which as you pointed out facilitates adaptation. I think of natural selection as fine tuning, and in that sense it is progression (although alleles might be lost in the process). But a major branch of Darwinism imagines a grand Tree of Life that tries to identify last common ancestors, extrapolating back to the origin of life. This is what I’m “hung up” on as wildly improbable, and disruptive to scientific investigation.
Ok, but that wasn't what I meant. You're casting everything in the light of becoming better, but as you rightly said about leaves there's no perfect design since different environments have different requirements for survival, so evolution doesn't necessarily mean becoming better, only becoming different.
So how long would you expect an intelligent designer to take to progress from single-celled organisms to multicellular ones?
Great question! Here’s another question.
... but not an answer. You said “The fossil record indicates advanced structures at an extremely early point relative to where we would reasonably expect them.” by which I think you're referring to the evolutionary timescale. But if intelligent design doesn't even produce expectations, isn't it useless?
Why would we think that “progress” is necessarily from single-celled organisms to multi-celled ones?
I wouldn't. I don't. I was referring to the progression of the designer, not their designs.
To contain all an organism’s functions within a single cell is pretty amazing, but single-celled organisms have a much greater number of generations within a given period of time, so we would expect a lot more adaptation and refinement. Is this what we observe?
Yes. Single-celled organisms can survive in many places where no multicellular ones can, and many of them have highly streamlined genomes.
We (including myself) have been conditioned to accept a single-cell origin of life, strata being laid down in horizontal sediments (rather than at an angle through laminar flow of a suspension of silt, sand, and gravel),...
Check out cross-bedding for strata being laid down angularly
... specialization through symbiotic relationships, and somehow several complex codes magically forming inside a semi-permeable protective membrane, perhaps a coacervate. I think it’s more reasonable to believe that the Earth was seeded. And if the Earth was indeed seeded, what would we observe that’s inconsistent with this idea?
I can't answer this - it would surely depend on the nature and timing of the seeding. There's a massive difference between the consequences of a single seeding of microsopic life vs the consequences of repeated seedings of diverse multicellular life-forms at different times.
Thank you for your previous, thoughtful answer.
And thank you for your integrity. RoyRoy
March 16, 2014
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Roy, The arrangements of the compound eyes show spectacular variation, but apparently not the design of the individual eyes, which I was referring to.
Continued existence.
Yes, I think that's much more reasonable. However, trilobites ceased to exist and tadpole shrimp continued to exist from that time to the present. I can't observe any reason for this outside of mechanical extinction.
Again you seem to think evolution requires that creatures evolve grossly different morphology. That’s not so.
So where did creatures with grossly different morphologies come from? ;-)
Anyway, why are you hung up on “Darwinism”? You seem to think evolution is all about “progression” – it isn’t and hasn’t been for decades.
Precisely because we can observe variation, which as you pointed out facilitates adaptation. I think of natural selection as fine tuning, and in that sense it is progression (although alleles might be lost in the process). But a major branch of Darwinism imagines a grand Tree of Life that tries to identify last common ancestors, extrapolating back to the origin of life. This is what I'm "hung up" on as wildly improbable, and disruptive to scientific investigation.
So how long would you expect an intelligent designer to take to progress from single-celled organisms to multicellular ones?
Great question! Here's another question. Why would we think that "progress" is necessarily from single-celled organisms to multi-celled ones? In human technology, miniaturization often represents progress. If fossilized telephones were discovered, would we arrange them generally from smallest to largest demonstrating symbiotic specialization of components? To contain all an organism's functions within a single cell is pretty amazing, but single-celled organisms have a much greater number of generations within a given period of time, so we would expect a lot more adaptation and refinement. Is this what we observe? We (including myself) have been conditioned to accept a single-cell origin of life, strata being laid down in horizontal sediments (rather than at an angle through laminar flow of a suspension of silt, sand, and gravel), specialization through symbiotic relationships, and somehow several complex codes magically forming inside a semi-permeable protective membrane, perhaps a coacervate. I think it's more reasonable to believe that the Earth was seeded. And if the Earth was indeed seeded, what would we observe that's inconsistent with this idea? Thank you for your previous, thoughtful answer. -QQuerius
March 15, 2014
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Roy, Please tell us how to test the claim the vision system arose via blind and undirected physical and chemical processes. Thanks.Joe
March 15, 2014
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Querius:
The problem is that in about a quarter of a billion years, if we saw a progression in the trilobite to better and better eyes, it would be consistent with Darwinism.
Your own source describes massive variation in trilobite eyes, including the Devonian trilobite with massive cylindrical shade-topped eyes that are far more impressive than anything from the early Cambrian. Why does this not count as a progression? Anyway, why are you hung up on "Darwinism"? You seem to think evolution is all about "progression" - it isn't and hasn't been for decades. Adaptation to changing environmental circumstances wouldn't necessarily result in a steady progression in one direction, and short term studies (e.g. on sticklebacks) show that minor variations in environmental conditions - such as presence or absence of certain predators - result in changes in selection pressure that lead to decidedly non-linear variation in traits over successive generations.
As I said, a trilobite doesn’t seem to be profoundly less competent than a tadpole shrimp Notostraca Triopsidae or even a common woodlouse, but trilobites are extinct and tadpole shrimp aren’t. What do they have to show for a quarter of a billion years of evolution?
Continued existence. They've done far better than most. Again you seem to think evolution requires that creatures evolve grossly different morphology. That's not so.
The author of http://www.trilobites.info/eyes.htm seems to think that one cannot worship a God whose designs aren’t perfect. There are no perfect designs possible on the Earth, only reasonably optimal designs for a range of habitats.
I read that as him being unable to accept a tinker god, rather than one who couldn't produce perfection. But if your reading is correct, he's wrong for the reasons you imply. So how long would you expect an intelligent designer to take to progress from single-celled organisms to multicellular ones? RoyRoy
March 15, 2014
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OT: podcast - Molecular Data Wreak Havoc on (Darwin's) Tree of Life - Casey Luskin http://intelligentdesign.podomatic.com/entry/2014-03-14T16_17_31-07_00bornagain77
March 15, 2014
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Roy@445,
That the complex trilobite eyes were preceded by simpler ones is consistent with evolution.
The problem is that in about a quarter of a billion years, if we saw a progression in the trilobite to better and better eyes, it would be consistent with Darwinism. However, if we don't see a progression in about a quarter billion years, it apparently also would be consistent with Darwinism. Darwinism can explain anything, but rarely seems to correctly predict anything. As I said, a trilobite doesn’t seem to be profoundly less competent than a tadpole shrimp Notostraca Triopsidae or even a common woodlouse, but trilobites are extinct and tadpole shrimp aren't. What do they have to show for a quarter of a billion years of evolution? The author of http://www.trilobites.info/eyes.htm seems to think that one cannot worship a God whose designs aren't perfect. There are no perfect designs possible on the Earth, only reasonably optimal designs for a range of habitats. That's why I asked the question about whether expensive evergreen leaves or throwaway deciduous leaves were a better design, to which you responded
Depends on the context.
Yes, exactly! Maybe that's why in the Genesis, it says that God saw it was "good" or even "very good" but not perfect. -QQuerius
March 14, 2014
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Some :moron wrote:
The god argument is no better than the pink unicorn argument. Both are pretty bullshit, I get that.
I've never encountered a pink unicorn. Have you? There are MILLIONS, even BILLIONS of people who profess to believe in a God or gods, as compared to how many who profess belief in a Pink Unicorn or pink unicorns? The two are only equivalent to the irrational "skeptic." The moron. Maybe you're not the moron I think you are. Perhaps you have a way to establish the equivalence of the two. But I doubt it.Mung
March 14, 2014
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While it may be true that there is no scientist alive today who understands macroevolution, there are plenty of us dead scientists who understand it perfectly.Mung
March 14, 2014
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Quirius,
Yes, I should have said “The fossil record indicates advanced structures at an extremely early point relative to where we would reasonably expect them.”
That would depend on expectations, which are worldview and knowledge dependent - and on what counts as "advanced". YECs would expect advanced structures from day one (or rather day 3). I'd expect such "advanced" structures to appear relatively rapidly after active predation, and bot to be dependent on environmental pand population pressures. When would an intelligent designer switch from designing monocellular creatures to multicellular ones, and then to complex differentiated multicellular ones? If 'twere me I'd not have waited nearly so long.
For example, it would not be surprising at all for trilobites to have eyes that can sense only light and dark. This would help validate Darwinism, but it’s not what we find.
As your link says, trilobite eyes weren't the earliest. That the complex trilobite eyes were preceded by simpler ones is consistent with evolution.
What’s the best design for leaves? Expensive evergreen or throwaway deciduous?
Depends on the context. RoyRoy
March 14, 2014
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Yeah, EricF, if imagination was science or evidence you would have a point. OTOH seeing that no one knows what makes an organism what it is then the imagination meets reality and comes crashing down:
Loci that are obviously variable within natural populations do not seem to lie at the basis of many major adaptive changes, while those loci that seemingly do constitute the foundation of many if not most major adaptive changes are not variable.- John McDonald, “The Molecular Basis of Adaptation: A Critical Review of Relevant Ideas and Observation”, Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics: 14, 1983, p77-102
And blind watchmaker evolution can't even account for those non-variable genes. It is stuck with the given prokaryotes and can't get beyond that. The there is the fact that the genes responsible for small changes are not the same genes responsible for large changesJoe
March 14, 2014
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Yeah, Joe. It appears to make sense. A cursory glance shows a variety of flora and fauna with differing levels of complexity. It's very easy to conceptualize that they begat each other. We can see how small mutations lead to advantages and disadvantages as these lifeforms interact with this planet's environment. You can extrapolate that this has happened a lot over billions of years. I'm not saying that means it is right. I just think that's the easier pill to swallow. So now, everyone has shown these weaknesses, and I'm looking for the correct theory.EricF
March 14, 2014
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All eyes first appeared during the Cambrian in a relatively short period of time and have not been improved much since then. It was a relatively short time after multi-celled organisms first appeared.jerry
March 14, 2014
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Roy@434, Yes, I should have said "The fossil record indicates advanced structures at an extremely early point relative to where we would reasonably expect them." For example, it would not be surprising at all for trilobites to have eyes that can sense only light and dark. This would help validate Darwinism, but it's not what we find.
Although they were not the first animals with eyes, trilobites developed one of the first sophisticated visual systems in the animal kingdom. The majority of trilobites bore a pair of compound eyes (made up of many lensed units).
See http://www.trilobites.info/eyes.htm for the whole article with microscopic views, diagrams, variations, and Darwinist speculation. Particularly interesting were the wide range of configurations, and the design allowing the images to be focused using a rigid crystalline lens. Be sure to read the disclaimer! Also note that "perfect" designs are not possible. As any engineer knows, even the best designs are compromises. Imagine designing the lightest bike possible . . . for mountain biking. What's the best design for leaves? Expensive evergreen or throwaway deciduous? -QQuerius
March 14, 2014
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ba77@433, Thank you for checking with Johanan Raatz. The information you provided is provocative. I suspect that there's a possibility of space dimensions separate from time dimensions. The plural is intentional. Here's an example. You're downloading a large file, and then the timer indicates that you have so many real-time minutes left. However as you know, the timer can speed up, slow down, or even go backwards as the estimates for completion change. The timer measures how much information is being added to your computer. Continuing my wild speculation, perhaps mass-energy also might have multiple dimensions as well. Virtual matter production might simply be the result an additional mass-energy dimension that that we're moving through intersecting with our dimensions. Good for a science fiction story if nothing else. ;-) -QQuerius
March 14, 2014
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The Marxist theory of history makes perfect sense. Intuitive, simple, possible to implement in the real setting. It has only one problem.Jon Garvey
March 14, 2014
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How does differing accumulations of genetic accidents make sense?Joe
March 14, 2014
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Yeah. I like to understand how things work. It's good to show that something is unlikely or unprovable, but the alternatives should then be the opposite. I'll take a look at Meyers book. it sounds like a good place to start. I'm skeptical of replacing one bad theory with a worse one. While the actual mechanics of evolution turn out to be bunk, the advantage it has had over everything else is that is that it appears to make sense. It sucks to now have to say, I don't know. Worse to imagine that we may never.EricF
March 14, 2014
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Hi Roy, Unfortunately no one knows how old the earth's sediments are. And blind watchmaker evolution cannot explain trilobites.Joe
March 14, 2014
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EricF wants an alternative to something tat can't even produce a testable model? Are you serious?Joe
March 14, 2014
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One minor observation:
- The fossil record indicates advanced structures at an extremely early point (a trilobite doesn’t seem to be profoundly less competent than a tadpole shrimp Notostraca Triopsidae or even a common woodlouse)
Trilobites are not found at an extremely early point in the fossil record, only in the last 20% of it. RoyRoy
March 14, 2014
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Querius, in regards to your question @ 427 Johanan Raatz answered: "Possibly, I'm unsure though. I had never heard of that idea before." Here are a few notes that may help: Physicists describe method to observe timelike entanglement - January 2011 Excerpt: In "ordinary" quantum entanglement, two particles possess properties that are inherently linked with each other, even though the particles may be spatially separated by a large distance. Now, physicists S. Jay Olson and Timothy C. Ralph from the University of Queensland have shown that it's possible to create entanglement between regions of spacetime that are separated in time but not in space, and then to convert the timelike entanglement into normal spacelike entanglement. They also discuss the possibility of using this timelike entanglement from the quantum vacuum for a process they call "teleportation in time." "To me, the exciting aspect of this result (that entanglement exists between the future and past) is that it is quite a general property of nature and opens the door to new creativity, since we know that entanglement can be viewed as a resource for quantum technology," Olson told PhysOrg.com. http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-01-physicists-method-timelike-entanglement.html Here’s a variation of Wheeler’s Delayed Choice experiment, which highlights quantum information's transcendence of time so as to effect 'spooky action into the past'; Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past - April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a "Gedankenexperiment" called "delayed-choice entanglement swapping", formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice's and Bob's photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice's and Bob's photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor's choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. "We found that whether Alice's and Bob's photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured", explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as "spooky action at a distance". The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. "Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events", says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html Qubits that never interact could exhibit past-future entanglement - July 30, 2012 Excerpt: Typically, for two particles to become entangled, they must first physically interact. Then when the particles are physically separated and still share the same quantum state, they are considered to be entangled. But in a new study, physicists have investigated a new twist on entanglement in which two qubits become entangled with each other even though they never physically interact.,, In the current study, the physicists have proposed an experiment based on circuit quantum electrodynamics (QED) that is fully within reach of current technologies. They describe a set-up that involves a pair of superconducting qubits, P and F, with qubit P connected to a quantum field vacuum by a transmission line. During the first time interval, which the scientists call the past, P interacts with the field. Then P is quickly decoupled from the field for the second time interval. Finally, F is coupled to the field for a time interval called the future. Even though P and F never interact with the field at the same time or with each other at all, F’s interactions with the field cause it to become entangled with P. The physicists call this correlation “past-future entanglement.” http://phys.org/news/2012-07-qubits-interact-past-future-entanglement.html In the following study, they cleared up some loose ends in relativity concerning time's relation to space. Loose ends that had been ample fodder for much of the speculation of time travel being possible in relativity: Physicists continue work to abolish time as fourth dimension of space - April 2012 Excerpt: “The rate of photon clocks in faster inertial systems will not slow down with regard to the photon clocks in a rest inertial system because the speed of light is constant in all inertial systems,” he said. “The rate of atom clocks will slow down because the 'relativity' of physical phenomena starts at the scale of pi mesons.” He also explained that, without length contraction, time dilation exists but in a different way than usually thought. “Time dilatation exists not in the sense that time as a fourth dimension of space dilates and as a result the clock rate is slower,” he explained. “Time dilatation simply means that, in a faster inertial system, the velocity of change slows down and this is valid for all observers.,, Our research confirms Gödel's vision: time is not a physical dimension of space through which one could travel into the past or future.” http://phys.org/news/2012-04-physicists-abolish-fourth-dimension-space.htmlbornagain77
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