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About intelligence and ID – a response to scordova

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My post intends to be a response to a previous UD article by scordova. Scordova, who asks “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” and answers “I think so”, is aware to have put on the table a critical topic because himself writes:

I know many of my ID colleagues will disagree or will remain skeptical of adopting such a convention.

I am one of his ID colleagues who disagrees and I will explain why.

Scordova wrote:

So what is the evidence of intelligence? I would suggest the ability to construct artifacts or events with Specified Improbability (the usual term is Specified Complexity, CSI, etc. but those terms are too confusing).

This is an extremely reductive way to consider intelligence. Why consider only the construction of artifacts? Are people not constructing artifacts all stupid? There are countless evidences of higher activities by human intelligence. For example: the elaboration of logic, languages, mathematics, philosophy, sciences… To reduce intelligence only to its practical uses is pragmatism/materialism of the worse kind. A movement that names itself “intelligent design movement” cannot have a conception of intelligence so low.

Thus factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms, bacteria, a collective network of ants, etc. can be considered intelligent systems. The problem is that we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence in any formal way.

“Factories with robots, smart cruise missiles, genetic algorithms” are not “intelligent systems” because what they produce is entirely due to the intelligence of their human designers. It is not the artificial system to be “intelligent”, rather its designer.

With no disrespect intended toward those with severe mental handicaps, yes such people are conscious, but there is a point a robotic automaton might be capable of generating more Specified Improbability than such an individual.

Conscious persons with mental handicaps, also if unable to produce “Specified Improbability”, are far more than robots because consciousness is always ontologically superior to any machine.

Some of us have imagined building robots that will land on a planet and tame it and build cities. They will act pretty much like human engineers and construction workers… Hence, the line between real and artificial intelligence gets blurred.

Again, robots build cities because they are programmed to do so by human engineers. In this case, the “line between real and artificial intelligence” is the clear hierarchical demarcation between “who programs and what is programmed”. “Who” are the human robotics engineers, “what” are the robots.

From an empirical standpoint, I don’t think it does ID much good to try to distinguish the outcomes of real vs. artificial intelligence, since we can’t formally demonstrate one from the other anyway, at least with regard to Specified Improbability.

On the contrary, I think that ID should carefully distinguish between real vs. artificial intelligence. (A general exhortation of Scholasticism was “distingue frequenter” in all fields.) One of the goals of ID theory is indeed to show that chance and necessity cannot produce information. Machines belong to “chance and necessity” because they are “necessitated” by their designer, so to speak. Therefore an IDer who denies the above ID proof self-contradicts.

We can even assume the process of natural selection is AI (where Natural Selection is an AI genetic algorithm in the wild), given it’s level of intelligence, we do not expect it to build extravagant artifacts.

To consider natural selection an “AI genetic algorithm” is to attribute it a merit that it doesn’t deserve. Not only natural selection is unable to build “extravagant artifacts”, it is unable to build the least artifact.

We can say an adding machine is intelligent, but we do not think, in and of itself it will build a space shuttle.

Actually I have on my desk an old mechanical adding machine. If you call it “intelligent” then why don’t call “intelligent” the reading lamp or the paperknife?

We rate the capability of various intelligence systems, and it is reasonable to affix limitations on them.

True, but here you contradict what you said before “we have no means of distinguishing real from artificial intelligence”. In fact, if we can rate various intelligences, we can see they form a hierarchy where at the top there is the real intelligence and at the bottom the artificial “intelligence”.

Whether the Intelligence that made the wonders of life is God, A Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence…it is irrelevant to the design inference. We might however be able to make statements about the level of capability of that intelligence.

Here again I see an inconsistence. I agree that we are able to grasp the level of capability of intelligence. But then, before a design inference on the universe as a whole, we cannot suppose that it was designed by “a Computer in Sky, Aliens, the Borg Collective, some mechanistic intelligence”. See here.

To sum up, to scordova’s question “should ID include AI as a form of intelligence?” my answer is: “no, we cannot consider an artificial system really intelligent”. Here I explained that real intelligence is direct connection to what I called “Infinite Information Source” (God). Here I explained that without such direct connection no comprehensibility of the world, also at the least degree, is possible. Here I explained that artificial systems (also those more sophisticated considered by AI) can show only false intelligence.

The direct connection to the Infinite Information Source (IIS) is the reason why the potentiality of knowledge of the real intelligence is infinite, as its source. No machine has this direct connection. As such the potentiality of real direct knowledge of a machine is zero. From the point of view of potentiality, the difference between real intelligence and its caricature – artificial “intelligence” – is like the difference between infinite and zero.

To deny the IIS and its connection to man is to consider man as an isolated finite system, whose potentialities are necessarily limited, due only to the configuration of its parts. This way real intelligence with its infinite potentiality of knowledge remains entirely unexplained. Said in theological terms: if man is not image of God, then man couldn’t have the potentiality of understanding he effectively has. If this simplistic materialist conception is supported by evolutionists/materialists no wonder. If it is supported by an IDer/creationist I am a bit bemused.

Comments
Mapou, but without math and peer-review, regardless of your personal opinion of math and peer review, IT IS just your personal opinion. There is no insult in that that is just the way it is. You may not like it but OH WELL what can I say! Now conservation of information is fairly simple to understand in that no computer program can create information over and above what is programmed, and feed, into it, by an original conscious intelligent being. To claim otherwise, as you have admitted mistakenly done, without reference to mathematical peer review, is to ignore what has been established by much hard work by Dembski and Marks, as well as numerous others before them as well as alongside them (Please look at the credentials and references here Evolutionary Informatics Lab – Main Publications http://evoinfo.org/publications/ ). There is no fine line for you to play with in conservation of information. It is a strict demarcation that clearly delineates the actions of a conscious intelligent being, with free will, from that of a deterministic machine (even one programed with very sophisticate algorithms, quantum randomness, and etc..) For you to pretend otherwise, and to want me to give your personal opinion as much weight as I give to Dembski and Marks seminal work is severely misplaced on your part to put it mildly. Note:
Can a Computer Think? - Michael Egnor - March 31, 2011 Excerpt: The Turing test isn't a test of a computer. Computers can't take tests, because computers can't think. The Turing test is a test of us. If a computer "passes" it, we fail it. We fail because of our hubris, a delusion that seems to be something original in us. The Turing test is a test of whether human beings have succumbed to the astonishingly naive hubris that we can create souls.,,, It's such irony that the first personal computer was an Apple. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/03/failing_the_turing_test045141.html
bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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The problem with AI as actual intelligence is aptly demonstrated in the movie 5th Element when Gary Old man chokes on a cherry and none of the intelligent machines knew what to do, but a human would.....Andre
November 20, 2013
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Mapou Sure machines are getting smarter we design and build them that way bit here is my question to you? Will a machine ever be able to think what it's like to be a bat? You see machines do not think..... they compute.Andre
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77, you started it with this:
Okie Dokie. Thanks for your opinion. But your specific peer-reviewed refutation of Dembski and Marks’ work can be found on the web where exactly?
This is insulting, in my opinion. It means this: you got nothing interesting or intelligent to say unless you can publish a peer-reviewed paper to refute Dr. Dembski's work. First off, I happen to have a very low opinion of the peer review process. I don't believe it should even exist. I think science should be a free for all system just like the arts and other human occupations. I detest elitism. Second, I also happen to know a little about AI and robots and I know what they can do and what they'll be able to do in the near future. I can't stand having to defend obvious facts. Countless computer programs are creating complex events and objects with CSI in them as I write. It's part of the machine learning and big-data revolution going on right now. Video games have intelligent entities that learn about your moves as you play. Cars are getting smarter all the time. Many have collision avoidance systems. Some can tell whether or not you're distracted and act accordingly. Still others are driving autonomously, making complex judgments about the road ahead, lane markings, road signs, the behavior of other vehicles, their current locations and how to get from point A to point B using virtual maps, etc. Advertisers and retailers have systems that constantly monitor what you do on the internet and tailor their offerings according to your habits. It goes on and on. All of that stuff is based on the automatic creation of data with complex specified information. You seem to think of it as a threat to your (archaic, in my opinion) view that the brain is not needed for intelligence, which is fine (although you are about to be sorely disappointed in the not too distant future) but there is no threat to ID that I can see.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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Mapou, other than in your imagination, I can find no place I talked down towards you in this thread. I've tried patiently to correct your misconceptions with friendly discourse extended to a fellow ID advocate and with trustworthy references (not with my personal opinions save those I can back up with trustworthy references). But in my attempts to correct your unreferenced misconception about intelligent robots creating CSI (which you finally admitted to 'using the wrong word') I was repeatedly talked down to. A quick glance finds the disrespect from you towards me as such:
stop being so pompous. You love to argue from authority, don’t you, bornagain77? You don’t have a lick of creativity or self-confidence do you? You need to get a clue before you can argue with me, OK? I can see where it could be a threat to your personal worldview and that of other Christian fundamentalists. You see? This is what I’m talking about. There is no need to invoke authority to make a good point every time you write a comment. It exercises the mind. Doesn’t that feel better?
I challenge you, a brother ID advocate, to find where I treated you in such manner in this thread.bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77 @41: Well, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones in my opinion.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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Mapou, I disagree with some nuances in 38 but I don't feel like being talked down to for correcting you. Thus I will not point them out to you.bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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Salvador:
I thank you for airing an opposing opinion.
You're welcome.Mung
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77 @36:
Mapou at 17: “Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot create CSI? If you are, I disagree.”
I realize that my choice or words can be confusing. Maybe I should rephrase the question thus: Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot construct new objects with CSI? No new CSI is created.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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So is the “intelligent” robot creating information or is it simply converting information?
You see? This is what I'm talking about. There is no need to invoke authority to make a good point every time you write a comment. It exercises the mind. Doesn't that feel better? So OK, I realize now that I should not have used the word 'create' in reference to CSI. In a sense, if a robot rearranges building blocks to come up with a new configuration of matter that was not not there before, it is creating something new even though the total information in the universe is always conserved. This is because the robot's "knowledge" is always acquired (via learning or what have you), never generated or created.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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Just to clarify on my post #31 because it reads a bit ambiguous. I mean AI is capable of making choices indifferent to physicality (such as devising the rules of a game for example). I do not mean AI is capable of being unconstrained by physical reality.Eugene S
November 20, 2013
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Mapou at 17: "Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot create CSI? If you are, I disagree." Mapou at 34: "It simply converts existing information that it learns from the environment into CSI." So is the "intelligent" robot creating information or is it simply converting information?bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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"An intelligent robot" that is an oxymoronbornagain77
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77, again give a rest. I am not disagreeing with Dembski. You are. Dembski's work on NFL has nothing to do with free will or consciousness. It has to do with the conservation of information. An intelligent robot does not create new information. It simply converts existing information that it learns from the environment into CSI. An intelligent robot is not a threat to ID nor is it evidence for Darwinism. Stop being so defensive. But then again, I can see where it could be a threat to your personal worldview and that of other Christian fundamentalists.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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It is also interesting to note another place where exemption is claimed from rigorous mathematical proof: Oxford University Seeks Mathemagician — May 5th, 2011 by Douglas Axe Excerpt: Grand theories in physics are usually expressed in mathematics. Newton’s mechanics and Einstein’s theory of special relativity are essentially equations. Words are needed only to interpret the terms. Darwin’s theory of evolution by natural selection has obstinately remained in words since 1859. … http://biologicinstitute.org/2011/05/05/oxford-university-seeks-mathemagician/ “On the other hand, I disagree that Darwin’s theory is as `solid as any explanation in science.; Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?” (Berlinski, D., “A Scientific Scandal?: David Berlinski & Critics,” Commentary, July 8, 2003) Macroevolution, microevolution and chemistry: the devil is in the details – Dr. V. J. Torley – February 27, 2013 Excerpt: After all, mathematics, scientific laws and observed processes are supposed to form the basis of all scientific explanation. If none of these provides support for Darwinian macroevolution, then why on earth should we accept it? Indeed, why does macroevolution belong in the province of science at all, if its scientific basis cannot be demonstrated? https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/macroevolution-microevolution-and-chemistry-the-devil-is-in-the-details/ “nobody to date has yet found a demarcation criterion according to which Darwin can be described as scientific” – Imre Lakatos (November 9, 1922 – February 2, 1974) a philosopher of mathematics and science, quote as stated in 1973 LSE Scientific Method Lecture Whereas nobody can seem to come up with a rigid demarcation criteria for Darwinism, Intelligent Design (ID) does not suffer from such a lack of mathematical rigor: Evolutionary Informatics Lab – Main Publications http://evoinfo.org/publications/bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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"Is Da Vinci some sort of infallible god? Why is he dead then?" And yet, his spirit lives on, perhaps in heaven, but most definitely on Earth: Da Vinci Vitruve Luc Viatour – interactive image http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Da_Vinci_Vitruve_Luc_Viatour.jpg "Speaking as one who has examined the original Vitruvian Man drawing, I can say that Leonardo was looking for a numerical design scheme that informs the proportions of the human body. The drawing began as an illustration from Vitruvius’ book, De Architectura where Vitruvius justifies the use of the square and circle as design elements because those shapes are integral to the human body: a man’s height is equal to his width (with arms outstretched) as a square, and a circle drawn with the navel as center and feet as radius is coincident with the hands’ reach. Leonardo also notes the other proportional relationships from Vitruvius such as the head height measures to the whole as well as the arms and hand sections. Leonardo then continued measuring (from the evidence of pin point indentations made by walking dividers, especially along the left vertical edge) to find more proportional relationships. He would take a measure of a part of the figure with the dividers and walk that measure along the height to see if the measure would fit an even number of times. From this drawing and others where Leonardo was working on the same type of problem it is evident that Leonardo believed there was a something like a unified field theory of design where everything in nature was related by numerical and geometrical design systems. He was one of the original ID thinkers." - Dr. Ford Of note: The Vitruvian Man is a world-renowned drawing created by Leonardo da Vinci c. 1487. It is the one commonly associated with the science of physiology https://uncommondescent.com/darwinism/peer-reviewed-paper-neo-darwinism-falsified/#comment-455233bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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Tragic Mishap #15, The way I read Dembski is that he rather means choices indifferent to law-like necessity and/or chance contingency because being unconstrained by physical reality is a divine property. However, if my understanding is correct, AI is capable of that, too. Having said this, I am not taking either side of this debate.Eugene S
November 20, 2013
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“No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests.” Leonardo Da Vinci
You love to argue from authority, don't you, bornagain77? You don't have a lick of creativity or self-confidence do you? Is Da Vinci some sort of infallible god? Why is he dead then? Da Vinci also believed that humans could fly by flapping artificial wings. He even designed a flying screw that was intended to be powered by humans. You need to get a clue before you can argue with me, OK? So give it a rest, bornagain77. Maybe you need to be reborn again and again.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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"Mathematics have nothing to do with it." OKIE DOKIE, thanks for your opinion. "No human investigation can be called true science without passing through mathematical tests." Leonardo Da Vincibornagain77
November 20, 2013
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boragain77 @25:
Not pompous at all. Just want to see your rigorous mathematical work backing up your opinion.
Mathematics have nothing to do with it. Math is only descriptive, not explanatory. Like I said, I don't see how Dr. Dembski’s work contradicts my opinion on this topic.
As to: “An intelligent robot is not a natural force.” And what exactly is ‘non-deterministic’ (i.e. supernatural?) within the robot? Does the robot have free will?
Non-determinism has nothing to do with free will in my opinion. All of nature is non-deterministic (probabilistic) at the quantum level. But I never claimed that robots can have free will. It is possible to program a robot to have random motivations but that would not be free will. And I never claimed that intelligent learning robots can create new information. But they can certainly learn from their environment and use that information to create CSI. A robot does not need to have free will to create CSI. It only needs the capacity to anticipate the future and plan its future actions to accomplish its goals. Furthermore, its goals are generated from being conditioned (motivated) by either the environment or a human trainer.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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What is thinking when there is no one who is thinking? How can there be understanding if there is no one who understands? What is the meaning of letters without words, the meaning of words without sentences, the meaning of sentences without a story, the meaning of a story without consciousness? What is (artificial) intelligence if there is no one who is intelligent?Box
November 20, 2013
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Mapou #20 What I wrote concerns man. So I didn't claim that "viruses, bacteria, animals and plants are conscious". Ancient traditional teachings may seem nebulous to whom has a modern mindset. You say:
If demon spirits can enter and possess a human brain, so can a human spirit.
You seem to speak of devil possession. I don't deny that. But the issue wasn't that, rather the causation chain generating a new human with all his three aspects (spirit, soul, body).niwrad
November 20, 2013
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Not pompous at all. Just want to see your rigorous mathematical work backing up your opinion. As to: "An intelligent robot is not a natural force." And what exactly is 'non-deterministic' (i.e. supernatural?) within the robot? Does the robot have free will?bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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bornagain77 @19:
Okie Dokie. Thanks for your opinion. But your specific peer-reviewed refutation of Dembski and Marks’ work can be found on the web where exactly?
Please stop being so pompous. Peer review has nothing to do with it. After all, all the Darwinist crap that's being put out by the academic community is peer reviewed. That being said, I don't see how Dr. Dembski's work disagrees with my claim about intelligent robots. Quoting from your comment above:
Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information.
How does this contradict what I am saying? An intelligent robot is not a natural force.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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I thought ID was strictly science but I see that a lot of the discussion here getting into theology and philosophy. In an effort to get away from that I would like to submit a question – or two. How can a programmer quantify a personal preference in digital form? I mean I like broccoli while Bush Sr. hates it, who is right? If some else likes broccoli but only cooked is that person any more right than either Bush Sr. or me and who is to decide what is right on that issue? But all of this is part of what we commonly call intelligence. If such things cannot be adequately programmed then my computer can never be considered intelligent. Furthermore, computers are digital automation machines. Even though analog circuits can be built into them they still have to convert that information over to digital data for processing. So I like a certain room temperature but my friend thinks it is too warm while another likes the temperature somewhere in between. The problem is that temperature is a linear analog quantity. How does one program something like that? How do we program preferences that have infinite possibilities?fossil
November 20, 2013
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Dennett on Competence without Comprehension – William A. Dembski – June 2012 Excerpt: In 1936 Turing proposed a universal mechanism for performing any and all computations, since dubbed a Turing machine. In the last seventy-plus years, many other formal systems have been proposed for performing any and all computations (cellular automata, neural nets, unlimited register machines, etc.), and they've all been shown to perform the same -- no less and no more -- computations as Turing's originally proposed machine.,,, Something is a Turing machine if it has a "tape" that extends infinitely in both directions, with the tape subdivided into identical adjacent squares, each of which can have written on it one of a finite alphabet of symbols (usually just zero and one). In addition, a Turing machine has a "tape head," that can move to the left or right on the tape and erase and rewrite the symbol that's on a current square. Finally, what guides the tape head is a finite set of "states" that, given one state, looks at the current symbol, keeps or changes it, moves the tape head right or left, and then, on the basis of the symbol that was there, makes active another state. In modern terms, the states constitute the program and the symbols on the tape constitute data. From this it's obvious that a Turing machine can do nothing unless it is properly programmed to do so. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/06/dennett_on_comp061451.html#sthash.pIAPWiRP.dpuf Algorithmic Information Theory, Free Will and the Turing Test – Douglas S. Robertson Excerpt: For example, the famous “Turing test” for artificial intelligence could be defeated by simply asking for a new axiom in mathematics. Human mathematicians are able to create axioms, but a computer program cannot do this without violating information conservation. Creating new axioms and free will are shown to be different aspects of the same phenomena: the creation of new information. http://cires.colorado.edu/~doug/philosophy/info8.pdf Free Will In the following experiment, the claim that past material states determine future conscious choices (determinism) is falsified by the fact that present conscious choices determine past material states: Quantum physics mimics spooky action into the past – April 23, 2012 Excerpt: The authors experimentally realized a “Gedankenexperiment” called “delayed-choice entanglement swapping”, formulated by Asher Peres in the year 2000. Two pairs of entangled photons are produced, and one photon from each pair is sent to a party called Victor. Of the two remaining photons, one photon is sent to the party Alice and one is sent to the party Bob. Victor can now choose between two kinds of measurements. If he decides to measure his two photons in a way such that they are forced to be in an entangled state, then also Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair becomes entangled. If Victor chooses to measure his particles individually, Alice’s and Bob’s photon pair ends up in a separable state. Modern quantum optics technology allowed the team to delay Victor’s choice and measurement with respect to the measurements which Alice and Bob perform on their photons. “We found that whether Alice’s and Bob’s photons are entangled and show quantum correlations or are separable and show classical correlations can be decided after they have been measured”, explains Xiao-song Ma, lead author of the study. According to the famous words of Albert Einstein, the effects of quantum entanglement appear as “spooky action at a distance”. The recent experiment has gone one remarkable step further. “Within a naïve classical world view, quantum mechanics can even mimic an influence of future actions on past events”, says Anton Zeilinger. http://phys.org/news/2012-04-quantum-physics-mimics-spooky-action.html In other words, if my conscious choices really are just merely the result of whatever state the material particles in my brain happen to be in in the past (deterministic) how in blue blazes are my choices instantaneously effecting the state of material particles into the past?,,,bornagain77
November 20, 2013
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If I decided to counter a position (a rare event) of one of my colleagues (a very intelligent and clever IDer, by the way) it is because the topic is really very important.
Thank you for the kind words. I very much appreciate your posts at UD as well, and I appreciate you stating the opposing case. Whether or not the UD community finds resolution on the matter, it is a topic that needed to be discussed. I've mostly avoided this topic for quite some time, but I've alluded to it all the way back to my ARN and ISCID days on occasion. AI and Robotics was a topic of interest when I studied computer science and electrical engineering. I actually thought that was my career path until I realized the AI community wasn't quite delivering what we saw in the science fiction movies (like C3PO in Star Wars, or the Arnold Schwarzenagger Terminators, especially the Kristanna Lokken Advanced Terminator in Terminator 3).scordova
November 20, 2013
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niwrad @18:
In traditional cosmology the standard “layering” of the macro-micro cosmos is “spiritus-anima-corpus“. This means that a newborn birth is always a vertical causation crossing the three layers. Man is a vertical manifestation of God (or vertical instantiation of an image of Him) on earth. … “Spirit made flesh”.
I'm sorry but I really have no idea what any of this means. Sounds like medieval theology. It's rather nebulous, if you ask me. How did they arrive at their conclusions? That worldview seems to imply that viruses, bacteria, animals and plants are conscious, which I think is both unproven and false. I believe that there must be a spiritual substrate that gives matter its properties, and not just animate matter, mind you. But consciousness is something else. It comes from a different kind of spirit. If demon spirits can enter and possess a human brain, so can a human spirit.Mapou
November 20, 2013
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as to:
Are you and Dr. Dembski claiming that an intelligent robot cannot create CSI? If you (and Dembski) are, I disagree.
Okie Dokie. Thanks for your opinion. But your specific peer-reviewed refutation of Dembski and Marks' work can be found on the web where exactly?
LIFE’S CONSERVATION LAW - William Dembski - Robert Marks - Pg. 13 Excerpt: Simulations such as Dawkins’s WEASEL, Adami’s AVIDA, Ray’s Tierra, and Schneider’s ev appear to support Darwinian evolution, but only for lack of clear accounting practices that track the information smuggled into them.,,, Information does not magically materialize. It can be created by intelligence or it can be shunted around by natural forces. But natural forces, and Darwinian processes in particular, do not create information. Active information enables us to see why this is the case. http://evoinfo.org/publications/lifes-conservation-law/ Before They've Even Seen Stephen Meyer's New Book, Darwinists Waste No Time in Criticizing Darwin's Doubt - William A. Dembski - April 4, 2013 Excerpt: In the newer approach to conservation of information, the focus is not on drawing design inferences but on understanding search in general and how information facilitates successful search. The focus is therefore not so much on individual probabilities as on probability distributions and how they change as searches incorporate information. My universal probability bound of 1 in 10^150 (a perennial sticking point for Shallit and Felsenstein) therefore becomes irrelevant in the new form of conservation of information whereas in the earlier it was essential because there a certain probability threshold had to be attained before conservation of information could be said to apply. The new form is more powerful and conceptually elegant. Rather than lead to a design inference, it shows that accounting for the information required for successful search leads to a regress that only intensifies as one backtracks. It therefore suggests an ultimate source of information, which it can reasonably be argued is a designer. I explain all this in a nontechnical way in an article I posted at ENV a few months back titled "Conservation of Information Made Simple" (go here). ,,, ,,, Here are the two seminal papers on conservation of information that I've written with Robert Marks: "The Search for a Search: Measuring the Information Cost of Higher-Level Search," Journal of Advanced Computational Intelligence and Intelligent Informatics 14(5) (2010): 475-486 "Conservation of Information in Search: Measuring the Cost of Success," IEEE Transactions on Systems, Man and Cybernetics A, Systems & Humans, 5(5) (September 2009): 1051-1061 For other papers that Marks, his students, and I have done to extend the results in these papers, visit the publications page at www.evoinfo.org http://www.evolutionnews.org/2013/04/before_theyve_e070821.html Conservation of Information Made Simple - William A. Dembski - August 28, 2012 http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/08/conservation_of063671.html How Information Theory Is Taking Intelligent Design Mainstream - William Dembski PhD http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UCLJKLQNbs
bornagain77
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Mapou #15 In traditional cosmology the standard "layering" of the macro-micro cosmos is "spiritus-anima-corpus". This means that a newborn birth is always a vertical causation crossing the three layers. Man is a vertical manifestation of God (or vertical instantiation of an image of Him) on earth. ... "Spirit made flesh". So, according to this point of view, it seems to me improper to say that spirit or soul "take possession" of the body only when the latter reaches a level of maturity that makes it possible. Causes have possession (have the potentiality) of their effects just from the beginning. This is the reason I said that - somehow similarly - consciousness was just potentially present in the birth process. Of course consciousness will be actual only when the body is ready. This matter is similar to the evolutionary question: "could an human spirit/soul be injected in a non-human creature transforming it in a true human?". Similar answer: no.niwrad
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