Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

An open letter to BSU President Jo Ann Gora

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Dear President Gora,

As an intelligent design advocate (Web page here) who contributes regularly to the ID Website Uncommon Descent, I would like to thank you for your recent statement to the faculty and staff of Ball State University, which clarifies your university’s official position regarding the teaching of intelligent design theory.

I hope you will not object if I ask you a few questions which your own faculty staff might want to pose to you, in future meetings.

Question 1

You referred to “intelligent design” in your email to Ball State University faculty and staff, without saying what you meant by the term. So I’d like to ask: exactly how do you define “intelligent design”? Specifically: does it include the cosmological fine-tuning argument, which purports to show that the the laws and constants of Nature were designed by some intelligent being? Does it include the scientific theory proposed by physicist Silas Beane (see here and here) that the universe we live in is a giant computer simulation? (The same idea was proposed back in 2003 in an influential paper by the Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom.) Does it include the theory that life on Earth was seeded by aliens, at some point in the past (never mind where they came from)? Does it include the evolutionary theory championed by Alfred Russel Wallace, who fully accepted evolution by natural selection as a fact which explained the diversity of living things, but who also believed on empirical grounds that unguided natural processes were, by themselves, unable to account for: (a) the origin of life; (b) the appearance of sentience in animals; and (c) the emergence of human intelligence?

Would a science lecturer at your university get into trouble for discussing these theories in a science classroom? Where do you draw the line, President Gora? What’s “in” and what’s “out,” at your university?

The reason why I ask is that the official definition of intelligent design at the Intelligent Design Website Uncommon Descent, on a Webpage entitled ID Defined, is quite broad:

The theory of intelligent design (ID) holds that certain features of the universe and of living things are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than an undirected process such as natural selection. ID is thus a scientific disagreement with the core claim of evolutionary theory that the apparent design of living systems is an illusion.

In a broader sense, Intelligent Design is simply the science of design detection — how to recognize patterns arranged by an intelligent cause for a purpose.

If you construe “intelligent design” more narrowly, could you please tell us what you mean by the term?

Question 2

Would you agree that the discussion of a bad scientific theory – even one whose claims has been soundly refuted by scientific testing, such as aether theories in physics, the phlogiston theory in chemistry, and vitalism in biology – can be productive and genuinely illuminating, in a university science classroom? The history of science, after all, is littered with dead ends and blind alleys, and scientists have learned a lot about the world – and about how to do science properly – from their past mistakes. Would you therefore agree, then, that even if the theory of intelligent design were found to be riddled with factual or theoretical flaws on a scientific level, that would not be a sufficient reason by itself to keep discussion of intelligent design out of the science classroom?

Question 3

If you answered “Yes” to question 2, as I expect you did, then I shall assume that for you, the decisive reason for keeping intelligent design out of the science classroom is that it is essentially religious in nature. As you wrote in your email: “Teaching religious ideas in a science course is clearly not appropriate.”

I would now invite you to consider the following two quotes by the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, an outspoken opponent of religion and a life-long atheist, as Jane Gregory notes in her biography, Fred Hoyle’s Universe (Oxford University Press, 2005, ISBN 0 780198 507918, p. 143), and to indicate: (i) whether you think they are religious claims, and (ii) whether you think a discussion of their scientific merits belongs in a science classroom at your university.

A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.
(The Universe: Past and Present Reflections, Engineering and Science, November 1981, p. 12.)

If one proceeds directly and straightforwardly in this matter, without being deflected by a fear of incurring the wrath of scientific opinion, one arrives at the conclusion that biomaterials with their amazing measure or order must be the outcome of intelligent design. No other possibility I have been able to think of in pondering this issue over quite a long time seems to me to have anything like as high a possibility of being true.
(Hoyle, Fred, Evolution from Space, Omni Lecture, Royal Institution, London, 12 January 1982; Evolution from Space (1982) pp. 27–28 ISBN 0-89490-083-8; Evolution from Space: A Theory of Cosmic Creationism (1984) ISBN 0-671-49263-2)

I am of course well aware of the scientific literature relating to “Hoyle’s fallacy”, which Professor Richard Dawkins has taken great pains to refute. (Biologist Stephen Jones’ article, Fred Hoyle about the 747, the tornado and the junkyard, contains a very fair-minded discussion of the relevant issues, for those who are interested.) The point I’m making here is that if Hoyle’s claims are scientifically refutable, as neo-Darwinian biologists assert, then surely a discussion of the flaws in those claims belongs in a university science classroom. But since Hoyle referred to his own theory as “intelligent design,” it follows that a discussion of the flaws in intelligent design belongs in a university science classroom.

Now I hope you can see where I’m heading with this line of inquiry. If the discussion of the flaws in intelligent design theory belongs in a university science classroom, it logically follows that discussion of the theory itself belongs in a university science classroom. But that contradicts your email, which states that “[d]iscussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses,” clearly implying that a discussion of intelligent design has no place in a science classroom. Elsewhere in your email, you state that “intelligent design is not appropriate content for science courses,” which once again implies that any discussion of intelligent design is off-bounds at a Ball State University science course.

Indeed, a consistent application of your injunction to faculty staff to keep intelligent design out of the science classroom would mean that any science professor who gave a lecture exposing the errors in intelligent design theory would be in violation of your university’s official policy. Is that correct, President Gora?

Question 4

In your email, you state that “Intelligent design is overwhelmingly deemed by the scientific community as a religious belief and not a scientific theory.” I’m sure you can cite court decisions to back up that assertion of yours – notably the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District court case of 2005.

I wonder if you have heard of the late Professor Richard Smalley (1943-2005), winner of the 1996 Nobel Prize in Chemistry. In a letter sent to the Hope College Alumni Banquet where he was awarded a Distinguished Alumni Award in May 2005, Dr. Richard Smalley wrote:

Recently I have gone back to church regularly with a new focus to understand as best I can what it is that makes Christianity so vital and powerful in the lives of billions of people today, even though almost 2000 years have passed since the death and resurrection of Christ.

Although I suspect I will never fully understand, I now think the answer is very simple: it’s true. God did create the universe about 13.7 billion years ago, and of necessity has involved Himself with His creation ever since. The purpose of this universe is something that only God knows for sure, but it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life. We are somehow critically involved in His purpose. Our job is to sense that purpose as best we can, love one another, and help Him get that job done. (Emphases mine – VJT.)

Towards the end of his life, Dr. Richard Smalley became an Old Earth creationist, after reading the books “Origins of Life” and “Who Was Adam?”, written by Dr. Hugh Ross (an astrophysicist) and Dr. Fazale Rana (a biochemist). Dr. Smalley explained his change of heart as follows:

Evolution has just been dealt its death blow. After reading “Origins of Life”, with my background in chemistry and physics, it is clear evolution could not have occurred. The new book, “Who Was Adam?”, is the silver bullet that puts the evolutionary model to death. (Emphasis mine – VJT.)

I’m quite sure you will tell me that most biologists and chemists disagree with the late Nobel Prize Laureate, Dr. Richard Smalley, on whether the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution can account for the origin and diversity of life. Be that as it may, what interests me is that Dr. Smalley evidently felt that the question of whether life and the universe were intelligently designed was scientifically tractable. What’s more, he felt that science had already found the answer: “it is increasingly clear to modern science that the universe was exquisitely fine-tuned to enable human life.” That’s intelligent design.

So my question to you is: if a Nobel Prize winner in chemistry thought that intelligent design belongs in the category of “science”, what makes you so sure that it belongs in the category of religion? For that matter, was the late Sir Fred Hoyle, FRS, being religious when he argued on scientific grounds that “superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology”? Is that what you are saying?

Finally, I note that you remark in your email that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory” (italics mine – VJT). However, the scientific community’s very rejection intelligent design as a scientific theory logically implies that it is a scientific theory – even if a bad one. Are you prepared to grant this point?

Question 5

In your email, you state:

Discussions of intelligent design and creation science can have their place at Ball State in humanities or social science courses. However, even in such contexts, faculty must avoid endorsing one point of view over others.

I’d now like you to consider the hypothetical case of a humanities or social science lecturer at your university who is asked a very direct, personal question by a student: “Do you believe in intelligent design?” Let’s suppose that the lecturer answers like this:

Personally, I do. I should point out in all fairness that the vast majority of scientists currently reject intelligent design, and if you want to know why, then I’d invite you to have a look at the official statements on the Websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the American Astronomical Society, and the American Physical Society. I’ve spent some time sifting the arguments on both sides. I’m not a trained scientist; but I do have some (philosophical) training in spotting a bad argument. In my humble opinion, the scientific arguments against intelligent design are not very convincing; at most, they merely refute some of the more naive versions of intelligent design. Regarding the arguments in favor of intelligent design, I do think they raise some very real questions which science has not yet answered. Now you might say that some day it will answer those questions. And maybe you’re right. My own opinion – and I’d invite you to read the best books on both sides in order to arrive at yours – is that we already have enough information at our fingertips to conclude that most likely, the Universe itself – and life – was a put-up job. Who or what the “Putter-Upper” is, I leave for you to speculate, if you agree with my line of thinking.

In answering in this way, has the lecturer said anything that is “out of line” with your university’s policy on the separation of church and state? It should be noted that up to this point, the lecturer has not even expressed a belief in theism, let alone the tenets of any particular religion. Saying that the universe was designed (passive voice) says nothing, by itself, about the identity of the Designer.

Now suppose that the inquisitive student presses further: “Do you believe the Designer of life and the universe to be God?” and the lecturer answers, “Yes, that is my personal belief.” Does that answer qualify as “endorsing one point of view over others” – something which your email expressly prohibits? If not, why not?

What if, instead, the lecturer had answered the student’s question as follows: “I’m an atheist, and I think intelligent design is a load of pseudo-scientific religious claptrap.” Would such an answer constitute “endorsing one point of view over others”? If not, why not?

Well, I think five questions are quite enough for one day. Over to you, President Gora. Thank you taking the time and trouble to read this letter.

Yours sincerely,

Vincent Torley

Comments
Breckmin, With "billions upon billions of stars," there's also a reasonable probability of sentient alien life (think Astrobiology). Then, there's a much smaller but finite possibility that alien life was responsible for designing life and seeding planet Earth (I'd imagine that when an alien kid turned in his "platypus" project, he got an F for genetic plagiarism). This version of panspermia seems to have been linked to severe cogitive dissonance, irritable forum comments, and eating disorders among some folks who cannot accept the possibility of ID, and that it might actually be Science (gasp). I believe some notable exceptions to the paranoia include Hoyle, Hawking, and Crick.Querius
August 5, 2013
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Joe, This is just an FYI. You wrote:
Any bacterial flagellum- over 500 bits of specified information.
LarsTanner replied:
Excellent. How did you get that measurement?
Bornagain77 quoted this number in @34, which was mentioned in an estimated computation in a book review by John Walker of Signature in the Cell by Stephen C. Meyer. I'm not sure whether Meyer or Walker performed the calculation. The review is on Walker's Web page, Fourmilab. Walker wrote:
Now, if you go back to the universe of elementary particle Planck time chemical labs and work the numbers, you find that in the finite time our universe has existed, you could have produced about 500 bits of structured, functional information by random search. Yet here we have a minimal information string which is (if you understand combinatorics) so indescribably improbable to have originated by chance that adjectives fail.
It's an interesting review. However, I'm always leary of combinatorial math when applied to organic molecules and living structures. A lot of the combinations would never occur.Querius
August 5, 2013
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#9 CLAVDIVS RE: Intelligent Causation in biological systems
"but it’s not science because it can’t be either confirmed or refuted by any sort of test."
But you can test how useful and schematic information is always formed. You can test mechanical working systems and see that factories never self-assemble. You can test programming and see that not algorithms or engineering with contingencies ever occur without a programmer (intelligent programmer). Based on our repeated experience and experimentation - ALL current finds demonstrate that sequences of arranged useful information always come from Intelligence. It's open for falsification so falsify it. A conclusion of intelligent causation based on scientific observation is indeed science. (unless you have the blinders of circular assumptions and false definitions for what science really is). Science can test this level of informational arrangement. It is NOT a general design claim...it deals with the exact nature of information. The conclusion of intelligent causation (ID) is even distinct from the implications of agnostic theism. ID comes "before" agnostic theism in a cumulative case argument. And agnostic theism comes before the religious implications of agnostic theism...so you have not 1 but 2 steps before the religious implications of those conclusions. ID is therefore not religion it's science! And any counter claim is just "ignoring" (what do you call the state of ignoring?) the distinctions made between (1)ID (2)agnostic theism and (3)the religious 'implications' of agnostic theism which are distinct from both. Question everything.Breckmin
August 5, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, contrary to what you imagine, you have nothing of substance to address.bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 86 As it seems you have nothing substantive to add at this stage, I'll just let my unaddressed arguments and points stand. Cheers CLAVDIVSCLAVDIVS
August 5, 2013
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Claude, the probability that Intelligence can produce functional information is 1. You provide concrete 'scientific' evidence for Intelligence every single time you write a single post with more than a few words in it. If you want to get into the details of 'Intelligent Cause' we can go into Consciousness and its relation to quantum mechanics, the 'information theoretic' foundation of reality, and what it means for humans to uniquely be made in the image of God. All of which are very interesting points and I could list copious notes for you in each of those regards (as unqualified as I am).bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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Claude, please try to pay attention! You have no argument!bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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bornagain @ 84
CLAVDIVS, you have no argument! For if you concede ‘for the sake of argument’ that undirected processes cannot produce life, being that life was created or it was not, then you have conceded that Intelligent Design is responsible for life. There is no other option! Thanks for playing!
Goodness, bornagain77, please try to pay attention. I have not conceded for the sake of argument that "undirected processes cannot produce life". The only things I have conceded for the sake of argument in this thread are: 1. The idea that "life began as an undirected event in chemical history" is being taught at Ball State as science and it's not testable (@ 19). 2. "Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous" (@ 63). What I have argued for and supported is that the ID claim of "intelligent cause", bare and unqualified, is too vague and unlimited to be tested by the methods of science, and therefore it is not a scientific explanation. I have also explained, numerous times, that a claim of the form "X cannot be explained by any Y" (e.g. "undirected processes cannot produce life") is also not a scientifically testable claim, because we are not omniscient and can never know if we have checked out every possible Y, as I pointed out @ 32 and @ 62. Furthermore, this particular claim about "undirected" processes suffers from operational problems in testing whether some process is in fact "undirected" e.g. how do you disentangle the "direction" of the experimenter from the processes being experimented upon? This problem has not been addressed. You seem to want to discuss anything and everything other than the actual arguments I have put forward and points relevant to them. Please try to do better.CLAVDIVS
August 5, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, you have no argument! For if you concede 'for the sake of argument' that undirected processes cannot produce life, being that life was created or it was not, then you have conceded that Intelligent Design is responsible for life. There is no other option! Thanks for playing!bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 81
CLAVDIVS, I don’t play politics with science so take your ‘grant for the sake of argument to the trash heap’!
It's not politics, bornagain77, just a commonplace tool of academic discussion to bring focus to what is relevant and avoid what is irrelevant. If you want to keep talking about irrelevant things, by all means do so, but please stop pretending that they are relevant to my arguments on this thread, because they're not.
Either you can defend your atheistic position or you can’t, period!
I'm not an atheist. And my argument that ID's unqualified claim of "intelligent cause" is not scientifically testable is not an atheistic argument. It is purely a logical argument, based on the fact that a claim that is consistent with any possible state of affairs - even contradictory ones - can never be disproved, and thus is not the sort of explanation testable by the methods of science.
Since you say that we cannot test to see if material processes can produce functional information, will you be forwarding your conclusion to all origin of life researchers to tell them to stop testing to see if purely material processes (without overt guidance from an intelligent chemist) can produce functional information sufficient for life?
Once again, you have misunderstood. I do not claim that we cannot test material processes. Of course we can. What I am saying is that the ID claim "intelligent cause", without any limit or qualification, cannot be tested. Testing whether material processes can do something is not a scientific test of the claim of "intelligent cause", as I have previously explained in detail @ 32 and @ 62. You really need to deal with my arguments on this point, and stop bringing up irrelevant subjects.CLAVDIVS
August 5, 2013
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Joe @ 68
CLAVDIVS: I do not appeal to the politics of consensus to establish Darwinism as scientific. I think Darwinism is irrelevant to this discussion. Joe: How can darwinism be irrelevant to this discussion? ID is at least as scientific as darwinism.
Darwinism is irrelevant because this thread is about whether ID should be taught in university science class. Whether ID is science or should be taught in university science class is a question about the status and methods of ID, not about the status and methods of any other theory. You seem to want to make the point there are other subjects taught as science that are just as unscientific as ID. This is also irrelevant: 1. If true, that would not somehow change ID's scientific status, which depends on the methods of ID and not any other theory. 2. If true, the solution would be to remove those other subjects from science class too; however, this thread is about ID and not some other theory, so discussing some other theory is just a red herring and is thus irrelevant. 3. You've repeatedly claimed Darwinism is unscientific, now you state here ID is is "at least as scientific as darwinism". Well then, logically, your claim tells us nothing about the scientific status of ID - you claim ID may be completely unscientific like, in your view, Darwinism, or it may be more scientific. In other words, your claim amounts to saying ID may or may not be scientific. This tells us nothing and is thus irrelevant. 4. If ID is not taught in science class but some other unscientific subject is, you may have a point about hypocrisy and double-standards. However, the existence of hypocrites and people with double-standards doesn't change the scientific status of ID. Either ID is testable by the methods of science, or it is not, regardless of the existence of hypocrisy and double-standards, so this too is irrelevant.
CLAVDIVS: And I have argued that the ID claim of “intelligent cause”, bare and unqualified, is not a scientific explanation, because it is too vague and unlimited to be be tested by scientific methods. Joe: Yet we test it on a daily basis, via scientific methods.
And test it via scientific methods you may, but the problem is, as I have said repeatedly, those tests always come back "true: intelligent cause" because the unqualified claim of "intelligent cause" is consistent with any conceivable fact, measurement, observation or state of affairs, and thus cannot ever be refuted. Therefore, it is not a scientific explanation.CLAVDIVS
August 5, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, I don't play politics with science so take your 'grant for the sake of argument to the trash heap'! Either you can defend your atheistic position or you can't, period! Since you say that we cannot test to see if material processes can produce functional information, will you be forwarding your conclusion to all origin of life researchers to tell them to stop testing to see if purely material processes (without overt guidance from an intelligent chemist) can produce functional information sufficient for life? Or are you just making outlandish claims here on UD to see if anybody will fall for your nonsense? If not, then please show me the e-mail draft of your letter to OOL researchers to tell them to stop doing research (i.e. testing of material processes to see if they can produce functional information!) and let me help you get the word out!
Life What A Concept! - Robert Shapiro – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=ku9wUbbPVYg#! Professor Robert Shapiro~ quote from preceding video “I looked at the papers published on the origin of life and decided that it was absurd that the thought of nature of its own volition putting together a DNA or an RNA molecule was unbelievable. I’m always running out of metaphors to try and explain what the difficulty is. But suppose you took Scrabble sets, or any word game sets, blocks with letters, containing every language on Earth, and you heap them together and you then took a scoop and you scooped into that heap, and you flung it out on the lawn there, and the letters fell into a line which contained the words “To be or not to be, that is the question,” that is roughly the odds of an RNA molecule, given no feedback — and there would be no feedback, because it wouldn’t be functional until it attained a certain length and could copy itself — appearing on the Earth.” Robert Shapiro was professor emeritus of chemistry at New York University. He is best known for his work on the origin of life, having written two books on the topic: Origins, a Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth and Planetary Dreams.
As to the Winston Ewert video, your claim that the threshold is not falsifiable is simply laughable, all you have to do to falsify his claim is show the origination of one single functional protein by Darwinian processes. Care to be the first Darwinist on UD to show us the origination of a single functional protein by purely material processes? By the way, I can show the origination of a protein by Intelligent processes:
Viral-Binding Protein Design Makes the Case for Intelligent Design Sick! (as in cool) - Fazale Rana - June 2011 Excerpt: When considering this study, it is remarkable to note how much effort it took to design a protein that binds to a specific location on the hemagglutinin molecule. As biochemists Bryan Der and Brian Kuhlman point out while commenting on this work, the design of these proteins required: "...cutting-edge software developed by ~20 groups worldwide and 100,000 hours of highly parallel computing time. It also involved using a technique known as yeast display to screen candidate proteins and select those with high binding affinities, as well as x-ray crystallography to validate designs.2" If it takes this much work and intellectual input to create a single protein from scratch, is it really reasonable to think that undirected evolutionary processes could accomplish this task routinely? In other words, the researchers from the University of Washington and The Scripps Institute have unwittingly provided empirical evidence that the high-precision interactions required for PPIs requires intelligent agency to arise. Sick! http://www.reasons.org/viral-binding-protein-design-makes-case-intelligent-design-sick-cool Computer-designed proteins programmed to disarm variety of flu viruses - June 1, 2012 Excerpt: The research efforts, akin to docking a space station but on a molecular level, are made possible by computers that can describe the landscapes of forces involved on the submicroscopic scale.,, These maps were used to reprogram the design to achieve a more precise interaction between the inhibitor protein and the virus molecule. It also enabled the scientists, they said, "to leapfrog over bottlenecks" to improve the activity of the binder. http://phys.org/news/2012-06-computer-designed-proteins-variety-flu-viruses.html
Funny, that you go on to deny that ID would not be falsified by material processes generating just one molecular machine, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that purely material processes have yet to demonstrate the capacity to produce a single molecular machine. Do you really think we would even be having this conversation is you could produce such an example of material processes generating molecular machines? If so, I got some swampland,,, by the way I can also show you a molecular machine that has been produced by Intelligent processes: (Man-Made) DNA nanorobot – video https://vimeo.com/36880067 So LT, your objections are all absurd. And I find you profoundly intellectually dishonest!bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 66
Why are you “quite prepared to grant, just for the purposes of this thread’s discussion, that Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous” and not grant it elsewhere? Or you or are you not intellectually honest? Since Darwinism in fact has no rigorous mathematical foundation and thus no way to test/falsify it’s claims, why are you not prepared to grant this in all threads from hence forward? Or are you just prepared to admit what you are forced to admit at the present moment because you really are not concerned with the truth of the matter?
bornagain77, perhaps your rudeness and false aspersions of dishonesty should be excused simply because you are unfamiliar with the concept of granting a point for the sake of argument. From Wikipedia,
Arguendo is a Latin legal term meaning for the sake of argument. The phrase "assuming, arguendo, that ..." is used in courtroom settings and academic legal settings to designate provisional and unendorsed assumptions that will be made at the beginning of an argument in order to explore their implications.
So to grant for the sake of argument means, even though one doesn't necessarily agree with a point, one maintains that the truth or falsity of that point is irrelevant to discussion at hand. Therefore one concedes that point - for present purposes only, reserving the right to dispute that point at a later time or in another venue - so the current discussion can focus on what is relevant rather than being sidetracked by what is irrelevant. In this case, the status of Darwinism is simply irrelevant to the point I am arguing about whether or not the unqualified ID claim of "intelligent cause" is scientifically testable. If this claim is not scientifically testable then it's just not, and the testability of other theories is simply irrelevant.
As to your repeated denial of the falsifiability/testability of ID, you have blatantly ignored that I already provided the criteria for falsifying ID: ... Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity – Winston Ewert – video
This supposed test is the claim that a particular observation (1000 bits) could not have been produced by any undirected, natural process. I have already explained @ 32 and again @ 62 why the claim "X cannot be produced by any Y" is in principle unfalsifiable, and thus not scientifically testable. There are other problems with this supposed test too - see my post @ 62.
The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel – Null Hypothesis For Information Generation – 2009
"[P]hysicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization" -- this is yet another supposed test in the form "X cannot be produced by any Y" which is in principle unfalsifiable, as previously explained twice.
Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video
"To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection." Yet another supposed test in the form "X cannot be produced by any Y" which is in principle unfalsifiable, as previously explained twice. Not only that, but Behe stated in sworn testimony that this was really only a test of natural selection, not a test of intelligent design. And indeed he is right - his proposed test is in the form "X (a complex system) cannot be produced by this particular Y (natural selection)" which of course, with good enough knowledge of natural selection, we can test scientifically. So we see in each case the supposed tests you have profferred are not in fact testable in principle. This is what I have been saying all along: ID is unscientific because it does not propose anything testable by the methods of science.CLAVDIVS
August 5, 2013
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correction: 'I would be MUCH MORE interested',,,bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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So LarTanner, you state "I have taken pains to agree with Joe on his view of evolutionism." Glad to hear that you agree that Darwinism is completely inadequate to explain the unfathomed levels of integrated complexity/information found in life. I hope I never see you again defending such an absurd theory as neo-Darwinism on UD again. But something tells me you are just playing politics with Joe and really have no intention of ever admitting Darwinism is absurd.,,, I'm sure that Joe, like me, can give you a rough ballpark figure for (classical) functional information present in proteins, but for more in depth analysis I once again refer you to Dr. Durston's thread (which I linked) where, when he returns tomorrow, you can get it straight for the horses mouth as to how to calculate functional information. Myself, since quantum information/entanglement has now been found in proteins and DNA, I would be interested in finding out how much computational capacity (as in quantum computation) is inherent in proteins in regards to information. Now that would be a peer reviewed paper I would read with relish!bornagain77
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Except, BA, I have made no claims whatsoever about Darwinian evolution, so I have nothing to defend about it. In fact, I have taken pains to agree with Joe on his view of evolutionism. But Joe has made a positive statement about bacterial flagella each having 500+ bits of information. The fair thing, if you are concerned at all about fairness, is for Joe to respond to my question about how he arrived at that figure. I'm not trying to trip him up; I expect he has the answer readily available. It should not be a big deal at all. But Joe and now you keep trying to call me to account for Darwinian evolution, and in your terms too. I don't know why you keep trying to deflect onto me, nor do I see why I have any obligation to answer for a position I have not asserted. I'll say it again: this conversation is about the theory of intelligent design and nothing else. Really, you ought to be elated to discuss the subject for once.LarTanner
August 5, 2013
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LarTanner, so instead of being fair and providing the detailed random mutation by random mutation account of how Darwinian evolution produced the flagellum in the first place you tell me to 'lump your offensive-sivity'? No need to get all belligerent if you don't have an answer LarTanner. Just admit that you have no answer and take some intellectual responsibility for once in you life for crying out loud!. If you want a detailed discussion on how functional information is measure in proteins I suggest you ask Dr. Kirk Durston who will be back tomorrow on his thread since he is, by far, the expert to ask in that regards:
Dr. Durston elaborates on how futile an evolutionary search is to find a single functional protein: Excerpt: From this, we can come up with a very rough estimate for the total number of stable, folding 3D sequences in 300 residue sequence space … roughly 10^74 sequences that will give stable 3D folds (this is very rough, but it will illustrate my point and help one see why scientists don’t search for novel stable 3D folds from a library of random sequences). One might think that 10^75 sequences is an enormous number, however, it is miniscule in comparison with 20^300, which is the total number of sequences in 300 –residue sequence space. This is why the theory that an evolutionary search, even if it involved all the planets in all the galaxies of the known universe, is utterly implausible. https://uncommondescent.com/biophysics/kirk-durston-a-common-either-or-mistake-both-darwinists-
Notes: Engineering at Its Finest: Bacterial Chemotaxis and Signal Transduction - JonathanM - September 2011 Excerpt: The bacterial flagellum represents not just a problem of irreducible complexity. Rather, the problem extends far deeper than that. What we are now observing is the existence of irreducibly complex systems within irreducibly complex systems. How random mutations, coupled with natural selection, could have assembled such a finely set-up system is a question to which I defy any Darwinist to give a sensible answer. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2011/09/engineering_at_its_finest_bact050911.html The Bacterial Flagellum: A Paradigm for Design - Jonathan M. - Sept. 2012 Excerpt: Indeed, so striking is the appearance of intelligent design that researchers have modeled the assembly process (of the bacterial flagellum) in view of finding inspiration for enhancing industrial operations (McAuley et al.). Not only does the flagellum manifestly exhibit engineering principles, but the engineering involved is far superior to humanity’s best achievements. The flagellum exhibits irreducible complexity in spades. In all of our experience of cause-and-effect, we know that phenomena of this kind are uniformly associated with only one type of cause – one category of explanation – and that is intelligent mind. Intelligent design succeeds at precisely the point at which evolutionary explanations break down. http://www.scribd.com/doc/106728402/The-Bacterial-Flagellum Biologist Howard Berg at Harvard calls the Bacterial Flagellum “the most efficient machine in the universe." Souped-Up Hyper-Drive Flagellum Discovered - December 3, 2012 Excerpt: Get a load of this -- a bacterium that packs a gear-driven, seven-engine, magnetic-guided flagellar bundle that gets 0 to 300 micrometers in one second, ten times faster than E. coli. If you thought the standard bacterial flagellum made the case for intelligent design, wait till you hear the specs on MO-1,,, Harvard's mastermind of flagellum reverse engineering (Howard Berg), this paper describes the Ferrari of flagella. "Instead of being a simple helically wound propeller driven by a rotary motor, it is a complex organelle consisting of 7 flagella and 24 fibrils that form a tight bundle enveloped by a glycoprotein sheath.... the flagella of MO-1 must rotate individually, and yet the entire bundle functions as a unit to comprise a motility organelle." To feel the Wow! factor, jump ahead to Figure 6 in the paper. It shows seven engines in one, arranged in a hexagonal array, stylized by the authors in a cross-sectional model that shows them all as gears interacting with 24 smaller gears between them. The flagella rotate one way, and the smaller gears rotate the opposite way to maximize torque while minimizing friction. Download the movie from the Supplemental Information page to see the gears in action. http://www.evolutionnews.org/2012/12/souped-up_flage066921.htmlbornagain77
August 5, 2013
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BA, Why are you acting all hostile and defensive? Just tell me that I am asking something unfair. Just tell me that the question I have asked is improper. All I asked was for high-level, basic lines of evidence. Then Joe gives a neat example of the bacterial flagellum. So, I asked the natural follow up: hey, how'd you get the number! Is this too difficult a question? Is it unfair of me to ask? So, lump your offensive-sivity. You can review my comment #58 for the main lines of evidence favoring the documentary hypothesis. If it took me 10 minutes. I have done already exactly what I have asked others to do. Your defensiveness obviously stems from some insecurity you have with your "beliefs" and the "evidence for ID." Maybe the Ball State U. decision still smarts. I don't know. It must hurt that every time ID gets raised to the public policy level it gets shut down for being what it is: creationism.LarTanner
August 5, 2013
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LarTanner, to be fair, will you provide the detailed random mutation by random mutation account of how Darwinian evolution produced the flagellum in the first place? (especially since you can't repeat the feat in the lab!) Or do such questions not interest you since they show how absurd Darwinism is?bornagain77
August 5, 2013
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Excellent. How did you get that measurement?LarTanner
August 5, 2013
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Any bacterial flagellum- over 500 bits of specified information.Joe
August 5, 2013
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Thanks, Joe. That's helpful. For your #2 item, can you please clarify the argument by naming a representative biological system and telling the quantity of information it contains? This should be a pretty standard request, right?LarTanner
August 5, 2013
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Larry, I did not say that you were fighting me on evolutionism. I just masde a very valid point and it is very telling that you just ignored it. Did you not understand the quotes from TPP? As for VJT 65- he just barely touched the tip of the iceberg. But anyway: ID, wrt biology, is based on three premises and the inference that follows (DeWolf et al., Darwinism, Design and Public Education, pg. 92): 1) High information content (or specified complexity) and irreducible complexity constitute strong indicators or hallmarks of (past) intelligent design. 2) Biological systems have a high information content (or specified complexity) and utilize subsystems that manifest irreducible complexity. 3) Naturalistic mechanisms or undirected causes do not suffice to explain the origin of information (specified complexity) or irreducible complexity. 4) Therefore, intelligent design constitutes the best explanations for the origin of information and irreducible complexity in biological systems.Joe
August 5, 2013
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Joe, I am not fighting you on evolutionism. It's really not the subject I'm trying to address. The subject is intelligent design theory. I take it you find VJ Torley's response in #65 satisfactory? No issues there?LarTanner
August 5, 2013
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CLAVDIVS:
I do not appeal to the politics of consensus to establish Darwinism as scientific. I think Darwinism is irrelevant to this discussion.
How can darwinism be irrelevant to this discussion? ID is at least as scientific as darwinism.
And I have argued that the ID claim of “intelligent cause”, bare and unqualified, is not a scientific explanation, because it is too vague and unlimited to be be tested by scientific methods.
Yet we test it on a daily basis, via scientific methods.
In other words, the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science about ID being unscientific is well-founded.
And yet those same "scholars" say darwinism is scientific. IOW they lie.Joe
August 5, 2013
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LarTanner:
And again, we can take it as given that evolutionism has no evidence or testable hypotheses.
LoL! Evolutionism is the reigning paradigm. And that means all competing scenarios just need to reach its level. So if you cannot do for evolutionism what you ask of ID, then don't ask of it for ID as obviously it isn't a requirement. BTW the quotes from "The Priivileged Planet" are the type of evidence that pulls all of the biological evidence together- see VJT's comment in 65.Joe
August 5, 2013
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CLAVDIVS, your answer is incoherent you state "And I have argued that the ID claim of “intelligent cause”, bare and unqualified, is not a scientific explanation, because it is too vague and unlimited to be be tested by scientific methods. In other words, the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science about ID being unscientific is well-founded. I am quite prepared to grant, just for the purposes of this thread’s discussion, that Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous, because that’s simply irrelevant to the point I am making about the ID claim of “intelligent cause” being too unqualified for scientific testing." Why are you "quite prepared to grant, just for the purposes of this thread’s discussion, that Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous" and not grant it elsewhere? Or you or are you not intellectually honest? Since Darwinism in fact has no rigorous mathematical foundation and thus no way to test/falsify it's claims, why are you not prepared to grant this in all threads from hence forward? Or are you just prepared to admit what you are forced to admit at the present moment because you really are not concerned with the truth of the matter? If you were truly honest in your intellectually inquiry you would be willing to grant that Darwinism is not scientific always until shown otherwise and not just for the purposes of this thread’s discussion,! As to your repeated denial of the falsifiability/testability of ID, you have blatantly ignored that I already provided the criteria for falsifying ID: This short sentence, “The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog” is calculated by Winston Ewert, in this following video at the 10 minute mark, to contain 1000 bits of algorithmic specified complexity, and thus to exceed the Universal Probability Bound (UPB) of 500 bits set by Dr. Dembski Proposed Information Metric: Conditional Kolmogorov Complexity – Winston Ewert – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fm3mm3ofAYU Here are the slides of preceding video with a clear view of the calculation of the information content of the preceding sentence http://www.blythinstitute.org/images/data/attachments/0000/0037/present_info.pdf The Capabilities of Chaos and Complexity: David L. Abel – Null Hypothesis For Information Generation – 2009 To focus the scientific community’s attention on its own tendencies toward overzealous metaphysical imagination bordering on “wish-fulfillment,” we propose the following readily falsifiable null hypothesis, and invite rigorous experimental attempts to falsify it: “Physicodynamics cannot spontaneously traverse The Cybernetic Cut: physicodynamics alone cannot organize itself into formally functional systems requiring algorithmic optimization, computational halting, and circuit integration.” A single exception of non trivial, unaided spontaneous optimization of formal function by truly natural process would falsify this null hypothesis. http://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/10/1/247/pdf Michael Behe on Falsifying Intelligent Design – video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8jXXJN4o_A Orr maintains that the theory of intelligent design is not falsifiable. He’s wrong. To falsify design theory a scientist need only experimentally demonstrate that a bacterial flagellum, or any other comparably complex system, could arise by natural selection. If that happened I would conclude that neither flagella nor any system of similar or lesser complexity had to have been designed. In short, biochemical design would be neatly disproved.- Dr Behe in 1997bornagain77
August 4, 2013
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LarTanner: Thank you for your post. You asked:
Enumerate the different main strands of evidence that make up the body of data supporting ID theory. Just list–1,2,3–the main categories under which the evidence can be classed.
OK, this will be very brief, and just on the biological side of ID theory (please read Robin Collins on the fine-tuning argument if you want to learn about cosmological evidence for Intelligent Design). A summary of the biological evidence for ID: 1. Proteins: the astronomical odds against a functional sequence of amino acids arising by chance. Only intelligence can overcome these astronomical odds. 2. The simplest living cell. Even a minimally complex cell needs at least 250 proteins, for it to work. If Nature cannot even generate one protein, how much less can it generate a living cell with 250 proteins? 3. Molecular machines, which are made up of dozens of proteins working in sync in a very precise fashion. Some scientists have argued that these molecular machines may have once been simpler, on the grounds that some of the proteins in these machines appear to have been derived from other ones. That's true, but even when you take out the derived proteins that came along later, you're still stuck with machines that have dozens or even hundreds of components. So the problem remains. 4. The eukaryotic cell, which is like a miniature factory. The cell nucleus contains a multitude of robot-like machines working in synchrony, which shuttle a huge range of products and raw materials along conduits leading to and from the various assembly plants in the outer parts of the cell. Everything is precisely choreographed. What's more, , the technology the cell employs is light years ahead of anything our best scientists could have devised. (DNA information is overlapping-multi-layered and multi-dimensional; it reads both backwards and forwards.) Intelligence produced this. 5. Animals with complex body plans (e.g. arthropods, annelid worms, molluscs, echinoderms and chordates, as opposed to simple animals like sponges and coelenterates). Complex animals need more cell types in order to perform their diverse functions. New cell types require many new and specialized proteins. But these new proteins also have to be organized into new, hierarchically ordered systems within the cell. What's more, the only kinds of mutations that are capable of changing living things' body plans are invariably deleterious, so there's no way the 30-odd body plans that appeared 530 million years ago in the Cambrian period could have arisen through an unguided process. 6. The fact that each species is distinguished from other species by hundreds of singleton genes and singleton proteins, which are chemically unrelated to other genes and proteins , and therefore could not have arisen by an incrementally. A look-ahead process was required to generate them - i.e. intelligence. That will have to do for now. Got to go.vjtorley
August 3, 2013
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Claudius,
From reading your latest I still don’t know whether you agree that “the scientific community has overwhelmingly rejected intelligent design as a scientific theory”?
That's because you didn't actually read my post, where I tried to explain to you that attempting to claim consensus among disparate scientists outside their fields is irrelevant, and it is not Science.
The question at issue here is “Ought we to teach ID in science class?” or “Is ID science?”
If you had read my previous post that ID is a paradigm, you would understand that it's not a matter of "teaching" ID in a science class, but following a scientific approach that assumes design and purpose, the result of a blind (or not so blind) watchmaker.
Sorry, Querius, you don’t get to substitute your personal opinion about what is “implied” by the term “junk” in place of Ohno’s actual opinion about whether non-coding DNA was likely to have function.
Implied? LOL! Look up "junk" in a dictionary! This is not my "personal" opinion. Once again, Ohno wrote in his paper “Our view is that they are the remains of nature’s experiments which failed.” That's why he called it "junk." Duh! He was wrong, and you're now just arguing to be arguing. Goodbye.Querius
August 3, 2013
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bornagain77 @ 61
CLAVDIVS, while your appeal to the politics of consensus to try to establish Darwinism as scientific and to establish Intelligent Design as non-scientific may play to those who are not so fussy about evidence, that simply does not cut the mustard here as to establishing whether Darwinism is science and ID is not.
bornagain77, you have misunderstood again. I do not appeal to the politics of consensus to establish Darwinism as scientific. I think Darwinism is irrelevant to this discussion. I do not appeal to the politics of consensus to establish establish Intelligent Design as non-scientific. I appeal to it as justification for the University President's decision not to teach ID in science classes, whilst allowing it to continue to be taught in non-science classes. The President should be relying upon advice from scholars and experts in the field for such a decision, and that's what she did. Whether the scholars and experts are right or wrong is an entirely separate question. And I have argued that the ID claim of "intelligent cause", bare and unqualified, is not a scientific explanation, because it is too vague and unlimited to be be tested by scientific methods. In other words, the consensus of scholars and experts in the field of science about ID being unscientific is well-founded. I am quite prepared to grant, just for the purposes of this thread's discussion, that Darwinism is not falsifiable or mathematically rigorous, because that's simply irrelevant to the point I am making about the ID claim of "intelligent cause" being too unqualified for scientific testing.CLAVDIVS
August 3, 2013
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