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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
DK: In re, 200:
As a logical principle, the law of non-contradiction is self-evident, correct, and useful. But as a metaphysical principle, it is useful only to metaphysicians. Why? Because non-metaphysicians (scientists) have no tools to investigate the properties of “being” or “existence.” You may say that non-metaphysicians implicitly operate under metaphysical rules of which they are blissfully unaware . . .
First, though, kindly note at 194 – 5 above on your remarks above in which you claim – incorrectly BTW, right from the outset of the discussion in the previous thread at 98, and especially once the Wales example was on the table at 112 there [disagreement on your part does not constitute lack of evidence on mine . . . as was said in that previous thread] – that no “evidence” has been put in the context of the reality of mind beyond the reach of matter + energy acted upon by chance + necessity. Do you still insist there is “no evidence,” given say 194 – 5 above, as you seem to wish to say; and if so, on what grounds? While you are at it, can you state your disagreement without implying the reality of the law of non-contradiction, etc as first and self-evident truths? Thence also, show us how since on your presumed worldview, your words presumably trace to chance + necessity acting on matter + energy, we should treat the apparent message as credible? That is, we are back to the force of the Welcome to Wales example:
. . . suppose you were in a train and saw [outside the window] rocks you [credibly] believe were pushed there by chance + necessity only [i.e. you saw the actual rockslide . . . ], spelling out: WELCOME TO WALES. Would you believe the apparent message, why? [Onlookers, for more details cf here.]
Similarly, we need to soberly reflect on the moral issues tied to the original post: self evident truths include certain moral truths and we reject such truths at our peril. As our civilisation seems ever hastening to do. But, the even more revealing issue is your idea that “scientists” are “non-metaphysicians.” It is worth the while to pause and address this, step by step: 1 --> Metaphysics, proper, is best understood as analysis of worldviews [roughly: our key ideas on what the world is like and how it works and where we fit in, thence what we should do (vs. what we actually do . . ), why], and so the real issue is whether science is worldview-neutral, or more properly, whether individual scientists and schools of thought are worldview-neutral. (This last especially holds for evolutionary materialism, which commonly views itself as “science,” and the associated ideas of so-called methodological naturalism, which boil down to only allowing into scientific discourse entities and ideas that comport well with the idea of a wholly materialistic evolution from hydrogen to humans.) 2 --> Immediately, it is plainly evident that evo mat is hardly worldview neutral, and that methodological naturalism only manages to shield the iron fist in a velvet glove. From this, too we see much of the reason for the stout resistance to evidence that points to design in ways that may be uncongenial to evo mat thought: much more is at stake than mere theories of science when some candidates for design may lend some credibility to theistic views in the minds of hoi polloi. 3 --> Further to this, we come back to Socrates' principle: the unexamined life is not worth living. One implication of which is that none of us fails to have a worldview, the question is whether we have seriously and critically reflected upon it and especially its core assumptions, assertions and warranting arguments. Thus the value of metaphysics as critical reflection on worldviews in light of comparative difficulties across factual adequacy, coherence and explanatory elegance and power. From that, it is but a step to the related issues of the unpopularity and sad fate of that founder of the Noble Order of the Gadfly. [He is the one who first used that metaphor on the record . . . ] 4 --> Thus also, we come to the principle that we cannot but have metaphysical commitments, in a context where the most dangerous metaphysics is that which is unexamined, merely assumed “true” or “fact.” But, given Josiah Royce's truth no 1 -- “error exists” -- to love wisdom [i.e philo sophia, in its basic sense] must among other things entail willingness to critically assess one's own views; not just those of others. [For ALL worldviews bristle with difficulties; the issue is to compare and come to a mature view on the balance of the evidence and issues.] 5 --> Further to this, we must see the implications of chains of warrant. Start with a claim, say A. Why accept it as well-warranted? Because of B. But then, why accept B? Well, C, then D, . . . 6 --> In short, we face either infinite regress or we come to a point, F, where we acept things as so without further “proof.” F is our faith-point: first plausibles, presuppositions, axioms, intuitions, self-evident truths, accepted/trusted sense perceptions, etc. Thus, F defines the core of our worldview. 7 --> Are we all then in the end inevitably irrational? Some indubitably are irrational or closed-mindedly question-begging, but that we start from core ideas etc and work our way out to account for the world, is to say that worldviews are EXPLANATIONS. As, by the way, are scientific hypothesies and theories. 8 --> This brings us to the logic of abuction. In deductive proofs, we reason from premises to conclusions per logical inference: P => C. In induction, per principles of cogency, we reason from observations and experience to things that are made more credible or probable -- however provisionally -- based on the empirical data. In abduction [a species of induction] we argue by explanation. Namely, observed facts F1, F2, . . . Fn are puzzling but would at once be coherently explained if we were to suppose that an explanation E were so. E explains F1 to Fn, and is empirically supported by them. If it goes on to predict further expected facts P1, . . . Pm, . . . and we see that as we test, the P's are confirmed, this lends more support. If E is also coherent and elegantly simple but powerful relative to live option alternatives E1, E2 etc, it lends even more support. 9 --> But of course all of this is a balance of judgements, not a proof. Indeed there is a telling counter-flow between facts and implications. That is, empirical support is not proof. And indeed, the very premises of deductive arguments are arrived at by abduction or similar means. We must live by faith, the question is which one, why. 10 --> And, closing the circle, among the first plausibles are self-evident truths. Those things which we see are and must be true on understanding what they are saying based on our core experience as conscious agents living in a real world. Such truths we can test by observing that they are often undeniably true [e.g. “error exists” -- to deny is to instantiate its truth, and thus also that truth exists as what refers accurately to reality . . .], or are so at one remove: to deny them lands one in absurdities, incoherence and confusions [the law of non-contradiction – one cannot even state the denial without assuming what one tries to deny (and BTW, remember, language refers to reality, or at least attempts to do so) . . .]. 11 --> Similarly, there are moral first truths, and we should beware of any worldview that tries to subvert such. Citing Hooker from Locke again as he grounds principles of liberty [as opposed to licence] in Ch 2 section 5 of his 2nd essay on civil government:
. . . if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire which is undoubtedly in other men . . . my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant.
Plainly, much is at stake . . . [hence my willingness to make the effort to comment, even in semi-retirement . . . ] GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2008
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-----"vividblue: "It comes to a shock to many that what they so smugly think is some kind of objective knowledge is rooted in what they would call subjective, faith based, irrational, ie something that cannot be empirically conirmed!!" Excellent point!StephenB
May 12, 2008
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"As a logical principle, the law of non-contradiction is self-evident, correct, and useful. But as a metaphysical principle, it is useful only to metaphysicians. Why? Because non-metaphysicians (scientists) have no tools to investigate the properties of “being” or “existence.” " Here is the problem, or at leat one of them. Many scientists and so called scientific types treat their empiricism as if it is not rooted in metaphysics. From this launching point they then take their metaphysical empiricism and claim a privileged position against all other forms of knowledge. One of the most eloquent spokesperson of this type of thinking was the late Steven Jay Gould where he articulated what I call the fact/faith distinction. That which can be and has been empirically confirmed is fact everything else is faith. Others have gone so far to apply this to rationality itself. Only those things we can empirically confirm conttutes what is rational and everything else is irrational. This why the subject of morals, reigion,etc, are said to be non factual and in the case of faith irrational. However science itself is based on several metaphysical presuppositions. Given this no metaphysical position is entitled to claim a privileged position or monopolize what is or is not knowable. This does not stop scientists from doing so but as KF and Stephen have shown and so far no one has refuted them their scientism is nothing but metaphysics. Those who fail to see this arrogantly tell those who understand that we all operate from certain first principles, that such and such cannot be because we cannot emirically confirm certain things. How else could Jack for instance make statements that certain people only deal with what is "knowable" and do not make assumptions. Or that the law of non contradiction is not metaphysical. It comes to a shock to many that what they so smugly think is some kind of objective knowledge is rooted in what they would call subjective, faith based, irrational, ie something that cannot be empirically conirmed!! Vividvividblue
May 12, 2008
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----DK: “As a logical principle, the law of non-contradiction is self-evident, correct, and useful. But as a metaphysical principle, it is useful only to metaphysicians." It is useful for anyone who wants to live as a rational person. -----DK: "Why? Because non-metaphysicians (scientists) have no tools to investigate the properties of “being” or “existence.” As I pointed out @193, the law of non-contradiction is applies to both realms. It is no less self-evident in either case. No “tools” are needed to “investigate” a self evident truth, though a little reflection would certainly help. -----DK: “You may say that non-metaphysicians implicitly operate under metaphysical rules of which they are blissfully unaware. If they are rational, they will act according to that principle, whether they are consciously aware of it or not. -----DK: "Perhaps non-metaphysicians are invincibly ignorant. If so, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia, -----DK: “Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin.” You might want to reread those last two sentences and ask yourself if they are relevant in any way.StephenB
May 12, 2008
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BarryA #179
Jack’s characterization of the law of non-contradiction as a linguistic convention may be addressed by approaching the subject from an ontological point of view. At it’s core, the law of non-contradiction is a statement about existence. Instead of saying “A cannot be true and not true at the same time and under the same formal conditions,” we could say “for any thing “A,” A cannot exist and not exist at the same time and under the same formal conditions.” This formulation of the law is clearly a statement about existence in the real world and cannot be dismissed as a linguistic construct.(emphasis added)
Spot on, BarryA. Ontology is the key concept that separates the linguistic analysts from the metaphysicians. As a logical principle, the law of non-contradiction is self-evident, correct, and useful. But as a metaphysical principle, it is useful only to metaphysicians. Why? Because non-metaphysicians (scientists) have no tools to investigate the properties of "being" or "existence." You may say that non-metaphysicians implicitly operate under metaphysical rules of which they are blissfully unaware. Perhaps non-metaphysicians are invincibly ignorant. If so, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia,
Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin.
Daniel King
May 12, 2008
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So much complex talk for something so intuitively obvious is never a good sign of either our intelligence or our submission to reality. It is strange that those who are the most rebellious to reality are the materialists and agnostics - who claim we cannot know yet argue as though they do! Imo, Lewis still says it best because he states it most simply: "Those who would like the God of scripture to be more purely ethical, do not know what they ask...All men alike stand condemned, not by alien codes of ethics, but by their own, and all men therefore are conscious of guilt." - CS Lewis, The Problem of Pain "If nothing is self-evident, nothing can be proved. Similarly if nothing is obligatory for its own sake, nothing is obligatory at all." --The Abolition of Man "When you are arguing against Him you are arguing against the very power that makes you able to argue at all." "There is nothing indulgent about the Moral Law. It is as hard as nails...If God is like the Moral Law, then He is not soft." --Mere Christianity "If naturalism were true then all thoughts whatever would be wholly the result of irrational causes...it cuts its own throat." "Unless thought is valid we have no reason to believe in the real universe... A universe whose only claim to be believed in rests on the validity of inference must not start telling us the inference is invalid..." --Christian Reflections "First, and self-evident truths, the affirmations of reason, consciousness, and the testimony of God, can never conflict with each other. There is always a fallacy in whatever is flatly inconsistent with either of these." - Charles G FinneyBorne
May 12, 2008
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-----DK: "What is the point? That one must believe in the Christian God and/or Aristotelian metaphysics to do science?" The point is that science, which normally investigates material realities, owes its existence and its practice to many non-material, philosophical realities, one example of which is the law of non contradiction. Science cannot survive without a metaphysical foundation. First principles are philosophical, not scientific. More importantly, these first principles are articles of faith. That means that it useless and irrational to ask for “evidence” or “proof” of their existence. They are to be accepted as given, so they can be used to prove everything else. It is not necessary to accept Christianity or Aristotelian metaphysics to do science, but it is necessary to accept a theme common to them both and one which can be found in few other places---belief in a rational, orderly universe.StephenB
May 12, 2008
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DK: Pardon a few direct words . . . At the core of scientific research programmes, as Lakatos pointed out, we find embedded core worldview level commitments, often tied to ideas of both epistemology and metaphysics proper. [Cf here the discipline known as phil of science, noting that "what is/is not science" and "how do we know, to what degree of warrant in science" and the like are a PHIL issues not scientific ones.] Second you full well know -- or on long being referred to adequate documentation [e.g. cf here -- again -- for a start] SHOULD know -- that it is a common allegation to day that the Christian worldview is hostile to science as such, when in fact it is also not well discussed in education and media circles -- no prizes for guessing why -- that in fact modern science and the scientific revolution were birthed in a Judaeo-Christian matrix, by men who sought to understand God's order for the world, viewed as a revelation of God's nature. "Thinking God's thoughts after him." Third, a basic fair-minded reading of the above will show that SB has emphasised that we must accept certain self-evident truths about e.g. rationality [not (A ANSD NOT_A)], before we can reason to do science. So, in the light of so much of such significant value from SB that has gone on above, claims like your:
What is the point? That one must believe in the Christian God and/or Aristotelian metaphysics to do science? . . .
now begin to come across as grating, frankly disrespectful strawman caricatures driven by objection for the sake of objection and dismissal without serious consideration of serious issues, not a constructive contribution to a serious dialogue. Pardon my directness. But, I am sure we can do better -- a lot better -- than the above quote! GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2008
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StephenB #190:
In science, an assumption can be a hypothesis, but in philosophy, an assumption is a meta-world view that shapes perspective.
So, we have two intellectual domains here, that of science and that of philosophy. And, the symbol "assumption" can be construed in different ways within each domain, so that the proposition "The world can be understood," is a (non-metaphysical) working hypothesis for the scientist and part of a metaphysical world-view for the philosopher. Therefore, the claim that the proposition "The world can be understood" is a metaphysical foundation of science is not necessarily true. (If I recall correctly, Aristotle distinguished metaphysics from physics as a "theoretic" science, concerned with "being as such." Meta - physics = beyond physics.)
Once again, you miss the point about the philsopical world views that shaped the attitudes and actions of the early scientists.
What is the point? That one must believe in the Christian God and/or Aristotelian metaphysics to do science?Daniel King
May 12, 2008
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Now, on the issue of mind-brain interaction: First, I stand by the point that the first fact of all is that of the conscious, reasoning, understanding, deciding mind. This is the fact that is the premise on which all our other actions as agents is predicated. So, when we see allegedly scientific claims and associated worldviews that would entail that our minds are illusions and/or epiphenomena of material processes that reduce to chance + necessity acting on matter + energy in space-time, we must yell: STOP! For, we know that such things would put mind under the driving control of mechanical necessity of blind forces and associated chance conditions and circumstances. This would fatally undermine mind, which we have excellent reason to understand is sufficiently reliable for us to have viable intellectual lives. In short, we are looking at truths per se notum that cut across claimed scientific understanding, which in turn must inevitably rely on said truths they would dismiss! Now, while we know THAT there is mind-brain interaction beyond what can credibly be accounted for on the basis of C+ N acting on M + E in s-t, we are not so advanced in knowing how. But to have an explanation for a fact comes after we acknowledge the fact, and to deny a fact that in denying we must rely on is absurdity. So, let us start afresh on a humbler footing. Having said that, let us look in brief at the D-S model as linked above:
The problem is that motor activity - efference - does not just induce movement, but also affects what is picked up by the senses. As soon as you start moving, proprioceptors will tell you about limb position and balance, cutaneous receptors will tell you about changes in touch, pain, temperature, and pressure, homeostatic systems will signal requests for blood pressure and blood glucose maintenance, and special senses (eyes and ears) will detect the changing visual and auditory shape of the world. The senses, in short, are involved every bit as much in motor activity as are the motor pathways. What efference copy systems do, therefore, is subtract what you expect your senses to tell you next from what they actually tell you next. This gives zero if things are going to plan, but a non-zero error signal if they are not. This comparison is achieved by momentarily storing an image of the main motor output - the efference copy - and by then monitoring what is subsequently received back from the senses - the reafference. The principal benefit, of course, comes when the two flows totally cancel each other out, because this leaves the higher controller free to get on with more important things. Every now and then, however, the system encounters some sort of external obstacle, or "perturbation". This causes the reafference not to match the efference copy, and this, in turn, causes the higher controller to be interrupted with requests for corrective action. And because the sensors in an efference copy system thereby become capable of confirming for themselves that the effectors are working to plan, this is a highly efficient way of reducing unnecessary network traffic . . . . An even more advanced way to make use of past experience is to develop some form of predictive control system, that is to say, a system where the efference at every level of the control hierarchy is prepared well ahead of actual need (up to seconds ahead in many cases, but hours or even days ahead in the case of more "strategic" predictions). Indeed, there is considerable insight to be gained (even as non-technologists) by considering the problems faced by robotics engineers. Maravall, Mazo, Palencia, Perez, and Torres (1990), for example, are among the many research teams working in this area, and have obtained good results with robots capable of constantly making guesses at what is coming next . . . . There are also several important new modules (and important new memory resources to go with them). (1) a higher order controller (far left) replaces the external manual source of command information. This means that there is no longer any high-side system boundary, making the new layout self-controlling. That is to say, it is now capable of willed behaviour, or "praxis" . . . . The higher order controller "thinks ahead" (7), the device controllers deploy a repertoire of prelearned skills (8), and the peripheral systems know from their efference copy what is expected next (9). Note that this diagram, if redrawn to Yourdon notation and rotated 90o to the right (so that the system boundary is at the bottom), has many points of congruence with Frank's organogramm and Smith's (1993, 1996) six-module model of cognition. Note especially that Denmark Technical University's Rodney Cotterill (eg. Cotterill, 2001) is building a convincing theory of consciousness based around the brain's efference copy system
In short the mind can beenvisioned as a supervising controller for the brain acing as i/o front end controller of the body and its various effectors and feedback elements. To get to the interaction we can for instance look at the possibilities of quantum gaps:
Keith Campbell writes, “The indeterminacy of quantum laws means that any one of a range of outcomes of atomic events in the brain is equally compatible with known physical laws. And differences on the quantum scale can accumulate into very great differences in overall brain condition. So there is some room for spiritual activity even within the limits set by physical law. There could be, without violation of physical law, a general spiritual constraint upon what occurs inside the head.” (p.54). Mind could act upon physical processes by “affecting their course but not breaking in upon them.” (p.54). If this is true, the dualist could maintain the conservation principle but deny a fluctuation in energy because the mind serves to “guide” or control neural events by choosing one set of quantum outcomes rather than another. Further, it should be remembered that the conservation of energy is designed around material interaction; it is mute on how mind might interact with matter. After all, a Cartesian rationalist might insist, if God exists we surely wouldn’t say that He couldn’t do miracles just because that would violate the first law of thermodynamics, would we? [Cf also here -- especially stuff on Penrose and related ideas on microtubules.]
In short, serious stimulus to research – just the opposite of a science stopper. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 12, 2008
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H'mm: Sigh – it seems a little harder to [semi-]retire than one thinks, when serious matters of grave import are in contention . . . at least, this AM I am a little less sleepy. First, thanks to Stephen B for some kind words [I was only summarising what we means by “self-evident truth and how it connects to the inference to design], and I will follow up BarryA on the mind-body interaction issue a bit. [Indeed, this morning in offline exchanges with a UD contributor soon to be credited co-author once the app 6 the always linked is revised, the very issue3 came up.] But lest we forget – and lest we forget the chaotic and tyrannical implications of rejecting such self-evident truths, the actual focus of this thread is acceptance/rejection of MORAL self-evident truth and implications for liberty. That brings Locke's citation of Hooker's Ecclesiastical Polity to the fore in Ch 2 section 5 of his 2nd essay on civil gov't again:
The like natural inducement hath brought men to know that it is no less their duty to love others than themselves, for seeing those things which are equal, must needs all have one measure; if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man's hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire, which is undoubtedly in other men weak, being of one and the same nature: to have anything offered them repugnant to this desire must needs, in all respects, grieve them as much as me; so that if I do harm, I must look to suffer, there being no reason that others should show greater measure of love to me than they have by me showed unto them; my desire, therefore, to be loved of my equals in Nature, as much as possible may be, imposeth upon me a natural duty of bearing to themward fully the like affection. From which relation of equality between ourselves and them that are as ourselves, what several rules and canons natural reason hath drawn for direction of life no man is ignorant." (Eccl. Pol. i.)
This quote is of course the bulk of that section. Locke then immediately builds on this:
6. But though this be a state of liberty, yet it is not a state of licence; though man in that state have an uncontrollable liberty to dispose of his person or possessions, yet he has not liberty to destroy himself, or so much as any creature in his possession, but where some nobler use than its bare preservation calls for it. The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions; for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent and infinitely wise Maker; all the servants of one sovereign Master, sent into the world by His order and about His business; they are His property, whose workmanship they are made to last during His, not one another's pleasure. And, being furnished with like faculties, sharing all in one community of Nature, there cannot be supposed any such subordination among us that may authorise us to destroy one another, as if we were made for one another's uses, as the inferior ranks of creatures are for ours . . .
Shades of Paul in Rom 2:14 – 15 and 13:1 – 10! Compare BarryA's warning on what the evolutionary materialism-driven rejection of this Creation-anchored self-evident principle has done in US [and wider Western] Law:
it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning. Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.” With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States. “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings. In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place. The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences. At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built. Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality? This is where the influence of Darwin comes in. It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical – I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. In Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”
It is but a step from such thought to Darwin's Graveyards, I am afraid – outrage at such exposure of implications of dearly held beliefs notwithstanding. History is warning us, loud and clear, again and again, but are we listening? For, when “scientifically anchored” rejection of an intuitively obvious principle of morality leads to chaos, tyranny and absurdity, that immediately tells us that we are probably playing with the fire of rejecting self-evident moral truth. Something must be wrong with such science [probably including its core worldview level commitments asd Lakatos discussed] those and/or its applications and extensions. In the case of Darwinist evolutionary materialism, as I have repeatedly pointed out [of course, echoing many far more august voices than that of a mere humble blog commenter], something is drastically wrong with all three:
. . . [evolutionary] materialism [a worldview that often likes to wear the mantle of "science"] . . . argues that the cosmos is the product of chance interactions of matter and energy, within the constraint of the laws of nature. Therefore, all phenomena in the universe, without residue, are determined by the working of purposeless laws acting on material objects, under the direct or indirect control of chance. But human thought, clearly a phenomenon in the universe, must now fit into this picture. Thus, what we subjectively experience as "thoughts" and "conclusions" can only be understood materialistically as unintended by-products of the natural forces which cause and control the electro-chemical events going on in neural networks in our brains. (These forces are viewed as ultimately physical, but are taken to be partly mediated through a complex pattern of genetic inheritance ["nature"] and psycho-social conditioning ["nurture"], within the framework of human culture [i.e. socio-cultural conditioning and resulting/associated relativism].) Therefore, if materialism is true, the "thoughts" we have and the "conclusions" we reach, without residue, are produced and controlled by forces that are irrelevant to purpose, truth, or validity. Of course, the conclusions of such arguments may still happen to be true, by lucky coincidence — but we have no rational grounds for relying on the “reasoning” that has led us to feel that we have “proved” them. And, if our materialist friends then say: “But, we can always apply scientific tests, through observation, experiment and measurement,” then we must note that to demonstrate that such tests provide empirical support to their theories requires the use of the very process of reasoning which they have discredited! Thus, evolutionary materialism reduces reason itself to the status of illusion. But, immediately, that includes “Materialism.” For instance, Marxists commonly deride opponents for their “bourgeois class conditioning” — but what of the effect of their own class origins? Freudians frequently dismiss qualms about their loosening of moral restraints by alluding to the impact of strict potty training on their “up-tight” critics — but doesn’t this cut both ways? And, should we not simply ask a Behaviourist whether s/he is simply another operantly conditioned rat trapped in the cosmic maze? In the end, materialism is based on self-defeating logic . . . . In Law, Government, and Public Policy, the same bitter seed has shot up the idea that "Right" and "Wrong" are simply arbitrary social conventions. This has often led to the adoption of hypocritical, inconsistent, futile and self-destructive public policies. "Truth is dead," so Education has become a power struggle; the victors have the right to propagandise the next generation as they please. Media power games simply extend this cynical manipulation from the school and the campus to the street, the office, the factory, the church and the home. Further, since family structures and rules of sexual morality are "simply accidents of history," one is free to force society to redefine family values and principles of sexual morality to suit one's preferences. Finally, life itself is meaningless and valueless, so the weak, sick, defenceless and undesirable — for whatever reason — can simply be slaughtered, whether in the womb, in the hospital, or in the death camp. In short, ideas sprout roots, shoot up into all aspects of life, and have consequences in the real world . . .
We have been warned – not least by the ghosts of over 100 million victims of regimes acting on such principles. [ . . . ]kairosfocus
May 12, 2008
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-----jjcassidy: “Contra-diction” literally means “speaking against”. It is a projection that we make into the cosmos. It is a best guess–and really the only way it seems comprehensible to us. -----"It doesn’t matter that Aristotle was not a linguist, the issue can still be linguistic." I guess the only thing I can do is to keep making the point in different ways until people get it. The law of contradiction works as follows: {A] We have rational minds and [B} We live in a rational universe. With respect to [A} a think cannot be true and false at the same time With respect to {B} a thing cannot be and not be at the same time. With respect to {A} it is subjective, appropriate to the mind, and true for the INVESTIGATOR With respect to {B} it is objective, appropriate for the reality outside the mind, and true for the OBJECT OF THE INVESTIGATION. {A} has to do with what we say about the things we talk about (language) [B} has to do with the things that we talk about Thus, if the streets are wet, it must be raining. This is true for {A} OUR PERCETION OF THE WORLD and {B} FOR THE WORLD ITSELF. It is not either or. To complete the formula, I will repeat it once again with the final loop. {A} We have rational minds, {B} We live in a rational universe, and {C} there is a correspondence between the two. Truth is the correspondence between the mind and reality. That means that unless mind and reality both exist, there can be no truth and no rationality. Two realms (duslism) are required for rationality. One realm (materialism/monism cannot accomodate rationality.StephenB
May 12, 2008
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jjcaddidy, I'm as big a fan of Wittgenstien and the linguistic movement as anyone, but I have to tell you, they fell off the edge when they started suggesting the law of non-contradiction is up for grabs. See my 179, which approaches the issue from an ontological perspective.BarryA
May 11, 2008
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Stephen, Take for example these seemingly contradictory statements, that would both be true in certain contexts. The world is a ball. The earth is not actually a ball. That's the thing about metaphor. It is both true and not really true ("straight", or even "oak-like") at the same time. Language works by metaphor and that metaphor colors the result to a large degree. "Contra-diction" literally means "speaking against". It is a projection that we make into the cosmos. It is a best guess--and really the only way it seems comprehensible to us. It doesn't matter that Aristotle was not a linguist, the issue can still be linguistic.jjcassidy
May 11, 2008
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—–Daniel King: “I say, The law of non-contradiction is a linguistic rule for keeping our discourse coherent. Without coherent discourse, neither deductive nor inductive reasoning are possible.” Aristotle, a philosopher not a linguist, discovered the principle and used it as a principle of logic. According to logicians, it is the standard for propositional logic. -----DK: “One may remember that this related to StephenB’s #118: It all starts with the self-evident truth that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time, a fact that is far more dependable than any scientific discovery you could ever point to. -----Daniel King: “Now, I agreed (and still attest) that the law of non-contradiction is self-evident. But now StephenB said that it was discovered by Aristotle in the fourth century BC. What’s going on here? How can something self-evident and foundational not have been noticed by anyone in all the previous centuries of human history?” You have to think about a subject before it becomes self evident to you. The law of non-contradiction isn’t self evident to those who don’t consider what it means to reason in the abstract. When I say that Aristotle “discovered” the “principle,” I mean he formalized it and put it into words. He was the trying to explain the reasoning process in a systematic way. I was pointing out that Aristotle was a philosopher and not a linguist to disabuse you of your misguided notion that the law of non-contradiction is solely about language. That was the context of the discussion, a point you seem to have forgotten rather quickly. -----Daniel King: “But assumptions are hypotheses, not first principles. So I take it that he is agreeing with my opinion in #122 that such correspondence is a sensible working assumption:” No, that is not necessarily the case. In science, an assumption can be a hypothesis, but in philosophy, an assumption is a meta-world view that shapes perspective. The world is a lot bigger than you think. Once again, you miss the point about the philsopical world views that shaped the attitudes and actions of the early scientists. -----“Daniel King: “Further agreement by StephenB about the utility of working assumptions in the pursuit of science followed the above (my emphasis):” The whole scientific enterprise took off when scientists insisted that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” They assumed, (not proved) that the universe was the kind of place that could be studied systematically. It is not enough to say that “we can apprehend elements of the universe.” The question is, why did all those scientists believe that? It was because they were convinced that a Creator left clues and that we could find those clues if we looked for them. In other words, based on their religious faith, they concluded that the design in the universe was real, meaning that it must have been made with a purpose. Put another way, it is a rational place that can be understood using rational principles. Believe it or not, atheists operate on this assumption every day. -----Daniel King: “I find all of these agreements satisfying. Thank you, StephenB.” Why you would feel satisfied about not knowing that philosophy and science use the word “assumption” in different ways? Once again, you miss the major point about the PHILSOPHICAL FOUNDATIONS of science.StephenB
May 11, 2008
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BarryA: "Qualia" is a conceit of philosophy, not something that has been verified or confirmed in anyway whatsoever. In some formulations it is merely defined as those aspects of experience that cannot be attributed to physical phenomena. On the subject of color, there are quite predictable innate human responses to specific colors that are well understood in for example the advertising industry.JunkyardTornado
May 11, 2008
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I read both the Tractatus and Philosophical Investigations and don't remember that line in either of them.Frost122585
May 11, 2008
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DK's misunderstanding of StephenB is proof once again that Wittgenstein was right: "Philosophy is the struggle against the bewitchment of our minds by means of language."BarryA
May 11, 2008
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Daniel King writes: "But assumptions are hypotheses, not first principles." Again, an equivocation. StephenB is using the word "assumption" in the sense of that which is accepted a priori. To say that first principles are assumed is the same as saying first principles are accepted a priori. You are using the word "assumption" in the sense of an educated guess that may be tested and confirmed or falsified, i.e., an hypothesis.BarryA
May 11, 2008
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BarryA #152:
Daniel King, a tremendous amount of research has been done in the area of qualia. No material explanation so far. Here’s a more detailed post on the subject I did a couple of months ago. I challenge you to come up with a counter argument. https://uncommondescent.com.....e-that-is/
Yes, that is a fascinating thread, but in my #150, I asked for evidence regarding the reducibility of a perception to physical properties. Your post is not responsive, since you provided no evidence to back up your assertions that such an explanation is now and forever impossible. Asking for a "counter-argument" is pointless, because empirical questions cannot be settled by argument.Daniel King
May 11, 2008
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Daniel King asks "But now StephenB said that it was discovered by Aristotle in the fourth century BC. What’s going on here? How can something self-evident and foundational not have been noticed by anyone in all the previous centuries of human history?" DK, you are equivocating on the word "discover." StephenB used it in the sense of "artiulcated for the first time." You are using it in the sense of "found that which was not there before." Thus, your confusion. Newton "discovered" the law of gravity, but I am fairly certain things fell to the ground before then.BarryA
May 11, 2008
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Jack asks: "I spent some time in post 162 elaborating on my question to you about how the immaterial interacts with the material. Is this a subject that you have any thoughts about that you’d like to offer?" I will defer to GEM of TKI.BarryA
May 11, 2008
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Jack if you don't mind me interjecting, the Big Bang began with a first cause we therefore have two logicaly sound interpretations of what can account for the actions and existence of all things and their form. You have to believe* either some "non-thing" or "non-material" (what we call in philosophy the metaphysical) thing brought the universe into existence or you can believe what the empiricist would go by - that since all we know is that the universe has a first physical cause, that is all we can know and hence that is all that happened. Option 1 - the universe and all things/events in it are the product of a non-material cause or mover or Option 2- The universe came out of nothing. I find the idea that the universe "came out of nothing" to be quite impossible and unintelligent especially when I look around myself and think about all of the amazing things and experiences I have and am aware of. How could everything come out of nothing when on a daily basis (that is all of my experience in my life) I have never seen “anything” come out of nothing. I would assume that the non-material works through the material by a sort of proxy- a dialectic. Assume that there is a God- if X happens then y and z will happen but if A happens then B and C will happen. That is there is a law like encoding into the universe that was imparted into the Big bang - a natural but uncontrollable Law- that is the laws are not exactly predictable so no one can play the system dishonestly. All things and events such as thoughts are calculated into the proxy. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and General Relativity supports this kind of a world view. Science actually supports a theistic world view in this case. And of course God or no God there is plenty of room for law like design.Frost122585
May 11, 2008
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My goodness, these threads have a way of growing like a hydra. What with this and that in my life, including Mother's Day, it's almost impossible to keep up. Anyway, I hope StephenB will countenance my lateness and won't mind if I stick my nose in at this point and follow up on his #123 of two days ago:
—–Daniel King: “I say, The law of non-contradiction is a linguistic rule for keeping our discourse coherent. Without coherent discourse, neither deductive nor inductive reasoning are possible.” Aristotle, a philosopher not a linguist, discovered the principle and used it as a principle of logic. According to logicians, it is the standard for propositional logic.
One may remember that this related to StephenB's #118:
It all starts with the self-evident truth that a thing cannot be true and false at the same time, a fact that is far more dependable than any scientific discovery you could ever point to.
Now, I agreed (and still attest) that the law of non-contradiction is self-evident. But now StephenB said that it was discovered by Aristotle in the fourth century BC. What's going on here? How can something self-evident and foundational not have been noticed by anyone in all the previous centuries of human history? StephenB went on to say,
We also assume that the logic of our mind corresponds to the logic of the world. That is why you can say with confidence that if the streets are wet, if must be raining. We are constantly assuming that truth is the correspondence of the mind to reality.
But assumptions are hypotheses, not first principles. So I take it that he is agreeing with my opinion in #122 that such correspondence is a sensible working assumption:
DK---Why not simply propose that we can (with more or less success) apprehend elements of the universe? Looks like a sensible working assumption to me in any case. But not self-evident or metaphysical.
Further agreement by StephenB about the utility of working assumptions in the pursuit of science followed the above (my emphasis):
The whole scientific enterprise took off when scientists insisted that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” They assumed, (not proved) that the universe was the kind of place that could be studied systematically. It is not enough to say that “we can apprehend elements of the universe.” The question is, why did all those scientists believe that? It was because they were convinced that a Creator left clues and that we could find those clues if we looked for them. In other words, based on their religious faith, they concluded that the design in the universe was real, meaning that it must have been made with a purpose. Put another way, it is a rational place that can be understood using rational principles. Believe it or not, atheists operate on this assumption every day.
I find all of these agreements satisfying. Thank you, StephenB.Daniel King
May 11, 2008
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Hi Barry. I spent some time in post 162 elaborating on my question to you about how the immaterial interacts with the material. Is this a subject that you have any thoughts about that you'd like to offer?Jack Krebs
May 11, 2008
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Jack's characterization of the law of non-contradiction as a linguistic convention may be addressed by approaching the subject from an ontological point of view. At it's core, the law of non-contradiction is a statement about existence. Instead of saying "A cannot be true and not true at the same time and under the same formal conditions," we could say "for any thing "A," A cannot exist and not exist at the same time and under the same formal conditions." This formulation of the law is clearly a statement about existence in the real world and cannot be dismissed as a linguistic construct.BarryA
May 11, 2008
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I think that in these philosophical discussions such as we are having in this thread electromagnetic radiation is considered part of the material world. Immaterial, metaphysical and transcendent are being used here to refer to things that are not part of the physical world of elementary particles and forces (which are mediated by particles, if we properly understand what "particles" are in the quantum sense.) If I am wrong, and any of you are meaning by the word immaterial things such as energy and forces as opposed to something metaphysical or spiritually transcendent please let me know. Also, PaV writes,
Lastly, when we talk about the transcendent, implicit in that talk is the kind of self-awareness that we humans have.
That is exactly the point in question. My claim is that we don't know whether human awareness is transcendent - it might have a transcendent component, in my opinion, but I don't think there is any way to tell: this is certainly not a self-evident fact, nor is it self-evidently implicit in the idea of, or experience of, self-awareness.Jack Krebs
May 11, 2008
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jk (148):
Now I have questions about this, although I’m not sure anyone here is actually interested in discussing (rather than pontificating [Cf. 146 supra.]), but my first question is how does this immaterial mind interface with the physical body?
I recently had a conversation with someone who was dead for over thirty minutes and had an *out-of-body* experience. At the table, as we were having the discussion, was someone who knew someone who also had had an *out-of-body* experience. The man who had recently had an OOBE said that as he *died*, he could feel electricity flowing out of the nerve-endings in his hands. The person who knew someone who had had an OOBE, said that this is exactly what this person experienced as well. I know that, as kairosfocus brings up, that in "The Spiritual Brain", by Mario Beuaregard and Denise O'Leary, OOBE are included in their examination of how the brain/mind works. So, maybe for all of us, that might be a good book to read. Nevertheless, perhaps what the one man (confirmed by another) says about nerve-endings, we can infer that there is some kind of electro-magnetic connection. And, of course, electro-magnetism is, strictly speaking, non-material---although it has the ability to ineteract with material---and, so, may be a way at getting to the connection between the material and the non-material. After all, there is machinery that can "read" minds; and what do they measure? Yes, that's right, some form of E-M phenomena. Let me throw this into the mix. Personally, on two occasions in my life, I was able to "see" and "hear" without the use of my eyes and ears---meaning that I *saw* in a way that is everyway the same as you looking at your computer screen right now and everything around it. That is, in a completely normal way. I suspect this would qualify as "non-material". In one such instance, what I *saw* and *heard* in a normal way took place about 14 seconds before it ACTUALLY took place. I know these are highly unusual experiences, and, if it's never happened to you, it must seem completely foreign. Nevertheless, they happened. My experience was completely immaterial. But, of course, OTOH, I didn't "cause" any of what happened to me. IOW, as this was happening, as far as I know, I was unable to do anything at all. Summarizing, you can have thoughts and world-like experiences while completely disconnected to the material world. On the other hand, you cannot "act" in this disconnected state. Lastly, when we "disconnect" completely, i.e., "die", apparently some electro-magnetic phenomena is involved. Perhaps some of this is suggestive in some way. Lastly, when we talk about the transcendent, implicit in that talk is the kind of self-awareness that we humans have.PaV
May 11, 2008
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Putting aside the question of transcendence, we can simply examine the issue of priority. Let's put it this way: reason is more important than science in the sense that it is more basic. If there was no science, logic would still exist; if there was no logic, science would not exist. To be alive, for example, is prior to being productive. If there is no productivity, life can still exist; if there is no life, productivity cannot exist. Life provides countless opportunities for activity that have nothing to do with productivity, so it is more basic. Reason provides countless opportunities for understanding the world that has nothing to do with science. On the other hand, without reason, science can do nothing. Just as life is prior to productivity both in time and in importance, reason is prior to science both in time and importance.StephenB
May 11, 2008
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I don't believe that I have made any remarks comparing the importance of science to the importance of logic. Can you point me to a place where I have either affirmed or denied anything about the relative importance of science and logic? What I have said is that science would not be possible without logic, but logic without empirical content cannot tell us anything about the physical world. These statements do not rank the two in order of importance. I think you are drawing the conclusion that I am denying the prior importance of logic because from your view these laws are part of an immaterial, transcendent reality that is prior in importance. I am arguing against that point of view - I think logic has a different ontological status than you do - but from my point of view this doesn't mean that logic is more or less important than science: this is for me just not a distinction to be made one way of another. But my point certainly isn't a strawman argument or a logical error. You are ascribing errors to me that are not errors, but rather the product of disagreements about the nature of ideas, which is the big topic at issue here.Jack Krebs
May 11, 2008
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