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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
kairosfocus: Once again, you have fulfilled a desperate need at 167. It rates as a headline item, especially, 167 [...4,5,6] which should be required homework for all "mind-to-brain" reducers. Also, at 169: "In effect the brain is the mind’s i/o front-end processor, the mind providing imaginative, insightful, creative supervision and guidance." Excellent.StephenB
May 11, 2008
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Jack: One last point. When you deny that the foundational logic is not prior to science in importance, you are falling into the error of not distinguishing the "necessary" from the "sufficient." You seem to be saying that because logic is not sufficient for science, it is not priot to it in importance. It is prior to it because it is "necessary, not because it is sufficient. In all you points, you are saying that logic is not sufficient for science, therefore it is not prior in importance. Sorry, but this is a strawman argument, and, excuse me, a logical error.StephenB
May 11, 2008
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to Stephen: Thanks for the extensive reply. I intend to put some good thought and time into a reply, but I don't know when today I'll get it done. Stay tuned.Jack Krebs
May 11, 2008
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Hi PaV. Dropping into a thread isn't "horning in" if the comments add to the discussion, which yours certainly do. Threads are lively, organic things which take their form from who chooses to comment about what, when. Anyway, the story I was thinking of is told on page 6 and 7 of Feynman's little book QED, and it is about the magnetic moment of the electron, whose value was not accurately calculated by theory until Feynman and others developed the techniques for which they received the Nobel prize. Your second point is one that is under discussion, and is related to the pending question being discussed in posts 148 and 162. I do not agree that it is a foregone conclusion that thoughts - acts of consciousness - are immaterial, but I have come to understand through this discussion that this is one of the major philosophical points driving a lot of disagreement. You might read posts 148 and 162 and other related posts (if you haven't already been following the conversation) to see some of what I think the issues are.Jack Krebs
May 11, 2008
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AN [After nap . . . ]: I have thought it helpful to look at the Euclidean issue by way of illustration of the difference between axioms and truths that are per se notum. Here, Wiki on Euclidean Geometry:
Euclidean geometry is an axiomatic system, in which all theorems ("true statements") are derived from a finite number of axioms. Near the beginning of the first book of the Elements, Euclid gives five postulates (axioms): 1.Any two points can be joined by a straight line. 2.Any straight line segment can be extended indefinitely in a straight line. 3.Given any straight line segment, a circle can be drawn having the segment as radius and one endpoint as center. 4.All right angles are congruent. 5.Parallel postulate. If two lines intersect a third in such a way that the sum of the inner angles on one side is less than two right angles, then the two lines inevitably must intersect each other on that side if extended far enough . . . . To the ancients, the parallel postulate seemed less obvious than the others; verifying it physically would require us to inspect two lines to check that they never intersected, even at some very distant point, and this inspection could potentially take an infinite amount of time.[1] Euclid himself seems to have considered it as being qualitatively different from the others, as evidenced by the organization of the Elements: the first 28 propositions he presents are those that can be proved without it.
In short, axiom 5 was known from ancient times to be anything but necessarily true on insightful inspection. Contrast to these the following common notions that Euclid also stated [including a very familiar-sounding one [albeit it omits the explicit statement of a whole being finite; though of course an infinite whole, per the related mathematics, is not at all an intuitive notion] . . .]
1 Things that equal the same thing also equal one another. 2 If equals are added to equals, then the wholes are equal. 3 If equals are subtracted from equals, then the remainders are equal. 4 Things that coincide with one another equal one another. 5 The whole is greater than the part
These notions come far closer to the concept of truths evident in themselves as I have noted on above, in short, than the five axioms as stated. In particular, inspect each of these and reflect on their contents. Are they true upon inspection? Are they necessarily true, and that based on the interactive nature of the concepts involved? Does rejecting them land you in absurdity? [So far as I know, apart form stipulating that the wholes in question be finite and the parts proper parts, they are true per se notum.] Going further, let us consider the geometry of perspective and its extensions. Namely, in our visual fields, parallel lines converge to a vanishing point. In the projective geometry article, Wiki observes:
Projective geometry is a non-Euclidean geometry that formalizes one of the central principles of perspective art: that parallel lines meet at infinity and therefore are to be drawn that way. In essence, a projective geometry may be thought of as an extension of Euclidean geometry in which the "direction" of each line is subsumed within the line as an extra "point", and in which a "horizon" of directions corresponding to coplanar lines is regarded as a "line". Thus, two parallel lines will meet on a horizon line in virtue of their possessing the same direction.
In short, our experience of vision itself is testimony that Euclidean Geometry is not the only possible one, especially in regards to parallel lines! Okay GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 11, 2008
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Sigh: CLARIFICATION: In effect the brain is the mind’s i/o front-end processor, the mind providing imaginative, insightful, creative supervision and guidance.kairosfocus
May 11, 2008
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CLARIFICATION: In effect the brain is the mind’s i/o front-end processor, providing imaginative, insightful, the mind providing creative supervision and guidance.kairosfocus
May 11, 2008
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Participants and onlookers: The following dismissive evasion, sadly, is ever so disappointingly predictable on JK's unfortunate track record:
JK,148: I’m not sure anyone here is actually interested in discussing (rather than pontificating [Cf. 146 supra.]). . .
Of course, as a scroll-up will suffice to show, 146 is in the main a summary of what a self-evident - per se notum ["known through the instrumentality of oneself," cf point 2 as cited just below] -- truth is, per basic definition with illustrative examples:
GEM, 146: Self-evident truths are: 1] immediately known on insightful inspection, i.e once we properly understand what is being claimed about their terms and the relationships among the terms, 2] this, in light of our constitution and experience of reality as conscious, intelligent verbalising agents. 3] known without proof, indeed often they are the foundation of proofs. 4] the are not true by mere arbitrary definitions of words, or being analytic, indeed, often the attempt to define one term ends up bringing out the whole cluster i.e. we have a rephrasing using the same core concepts. [Cf that a finite whole is greater than any of its proper parts. Try to define each term without dragging in the other concepts and their relationships.] 5] they are truths about reality that we may refer to accurately and intelligibly in sentences. 6] rejecting them leads straight to incoherence, absurdities and confusions The law of non-contradiction is a case in point. It is a law of reality before we put it into words, it is plainly so once we reflect on it, and it is a premise for proofs, indeed for all proofs. That comes out as soon as we open our mouths, even before we assert something is so to begin speaking and arguing.
Has JK shown us that such a definition by discussion is mere appeal to dubious titular authority? Plainly, not. So, I find his protest above that Stephen B has been uncivil, distinctly hollow-sounding. Now, as touching the side-issue of interaction of mind and matter, the basic point has long been put in earlier threads, as well as in a PS to 146 in brief, but just as easily ignored or dismissed without serious reflection: 1 --> We know, immemorial, that there are three major relevant causal factors: chance, mechanical necessity, intelligence. 2 --> We can show fairly easily that we look for mechanical necessity when we see low contingency, i.e natural regularities: fuel + heat + oxidiser --> fire. 3 --> highly contingent situations are dominated by chance or intelligence. And, where there is especially functionally specified, complex organisation and associated information, we see that the islands of functionality are so isolated in the sea of possible contingencies that the probabilistic resources of the observed universe are far too scanty to credibly get to the relevant FSCI. 3 --> This is backed up by the observation that reliably when we see FSCI and independently know the source, it is intelligence. That is, the explanatory filter is known to be reliable per empirical test on discriminating chance and intelligence, when it rules intelligence. (It is deliberately conservative in so ruling, in fact, so it may rule chance as best explanation when we know intelligence is the cause, independently of the filter.) 4 --> Further to this, we see that the characteristics of intelligent -- mind based -- action are radically different from what chance + necessity acting on matter + energy credibly do: neither direct characteristics nor interactions and known observed emergent results can make the leap from say voltages of neuronal pules to truth/falsity of propositions or the binding nature of moral duty [and a right is a claim to binding obligation on the part of others]. Indeed, as the Wales example discussed in app 6 the always linked [based on the exchange in an earlier thread here (note JK's role in that exchange . . . )] shows, even if C + N credibly [per direct observation of the vastly improbable but logically and physically possible, say . . . ] produce an apparent message, we have no good grounds to see it as credible as accurately referring to the states of affairs in the real world. Thus, for instance Sir Francis Crick's attempted reduction of mind to neuronal electro-chemistry and connexions plainly self-refers and reduces to absurdity. 5 --> So [a] we know THAT mind (whatever its nature . . . ), [b] we know THAT mind interacts with our decisions, speech, thought and action, and [c] we know THAT mind acts into the physical world. Even if we have no idea of how, we credibly "know THAT . . . " 6 --> And, if we know that but not yet how, is that not simply an invitation to serious research as per say "The Spiritual Brain" highlights . . .? In short, the question in 148 is back ways around and begs the real issue at stake: we know -- as a self evident/ per se notum fact -- that mind interacts with the material world as a matter of FACT, so we need explanations adequate to account for that. FACTS TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER EXPLANATIONS THEREOF. And, factual inadequacy counts heavily against any theory or worldview. 7 --> Chance + Necessity acting on Matter + Energy (for reasons outlined above and discussed onward in the linked and referenced] cannot credibly do so. So, since mind and related experiences are in fact "fact number one" -- we interact with the world as intelligent, conscious, thinking and deciding agents -- evolutionary materialism's explanatory failure and associated persistent refusal to accept the relevant fact no 1, here are fatal. [Cf on this, the misconceived statements of the "hard problem of consciousness" -- i.e the attempt to reduce it to neurological activity, as discussed in the referenced app 6.] 8 --> Notwithstanding; how, then, can we model the interaction of mind and matter? As the said appendix and earlier discussions will show, I favour the Derek Smith model in which, on my view, we see two-tier control of the body acting as a living robot. In effect the brain is the mind's i/o front-end processor, providing imaginative, insightful, creative supervision and guidance. The quantum gaps under the Energy-time form of the Heisenberg principle are, in this context, an interesting point for discussion. That is, loading the brain with intelligent information that guides it in controlling the body. In short, the distracting side-issue is evidently posed here again -- having been previously seriously answered without effective response -- as just that. Namely, yet another attempt to change the subject and/or shift the burden of warrant. So, let us get back on track, please. For, ad hominems and associated dismissals -- such as using smear -words like "pontification" [cf 148 supra] --are unresponsive on the merits. Finally, I repeat: the law of non-contradiction has long been a law of reality long before it was recognised as a law of logic as stated by Aristotle et al. For instance, here is Paul speaking of the importance of intelligible distinctions that are prior to formalisation of logic:
1 Cor 14:7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? . . .
In short, apart form the distinction between A and non-A clear communication is impossible, starting with even music. Similarly, if that out-of control car careering down the road towards you is both there and not there in the same sense and time, and you therefore ignore the warning of your eyes and ears, CRUNCH. Similarly, the unwary post-modernist trout that on similar grounds of rejecting non-contradiction ignores the hungry pike that is there, is LUNCH. QED, again . . . GEM of TKI PS: Geometrical axioms are not self-evident/ per se notum truths [cf the above!], and the parallel lines axiom was precisely the most counter-intuitive. That's why someone set out to propose and alternative hoping for a reductio, and then found himself facing a new geometry, non-Euclidean.kairosfocus
May 11, 2008
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Jack: I appreciate the time you have taken to lay it all out, and I will not abuse the overture. -----Jack: “And if you are so moved, you might reconsider your statement that I have “boldly stated that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world.” Yes, I accept the clarification to mean that logic without content can tell us nothing about the real world. So, I withdraw my comment as premature. I am going to stretch out a little bit myself. One key statement in your description reads as follows: -----"Our physical world does demonstrate mathematical and logical order - that is not in question either. The trick is finding the correct model, which involves a back-and-forth interplay between doing the math and testing the results." Now think about what this means. It means that we live in a rational world, or a world which is ripe for investigation. Further, this is something that we must believe or assume to be true prior to the investigation. Otherwise we would not even have begun the scientific enterprise in the first place. The assumption that we live in a rational world PRECEDED any application of mathematics or scientific methodology as a means of understanding it. The great scientists of the past, for example, thought that God had revealed himself in nature and left “clues” for scientists to uncover. This was the original impetus for scientific research, and, while moderns tend to dismiss it, the fact remains. We look for correct models because we believe and understand that, properly applied, they will reveal some of this same order. In other words, historically and logically, faith in the order and reasonableness of the physical world precedes scientific discovery. This is, and always has been, a first principle of science. It is something to be assumed, not something to be proven. But it doesn’t end there. You mentioned that logic was a tool. Yes, it is, but, more to the point, it is a tool used by the “mind” (humor me with the term even if you reduce minds to brains). Further, the logic of the mind is internally consistent. One can reason in the abstract, without putting it to use in the real world, or one can reason about the real world. In either case, the mind has its own logic. Put another way, we are rational beings, and our faith in that fact precedes the investigation. If we didn’t believe that our minds were capable of getting us to our destination (truth) we would not risk taking the journey. This is yet another principle of science no less important than the first. Again, this is assumed, but not proven. Even at this point, we are still taking something for granted. In addition to assuming that we life in a rational universe, and that we have rational minds, there is yet a third question: Does the rationality of the mind correspond to the rationality of the world? Or, does the logic of one fit the logic of the other? Now, if you are a nominalist, or a Kantian you might raise the objection: Wait, doesn’t logic apply only to the mind? Well, no it doesn’t. The world has its logic, and the mind has its logic. If it were not so, the mind would merely be reflecting on its own order, which would be ridiculous. So, not only do we have to believe in the rationality of the mind and the world, we must assume that there is a correspondence between the two. Indeed, that is the formal definition of truth: The correspondence of the mind to reality. This is exactly what the great scientists meant when they said that they were “thinking God’s thoughts after him.” Assumed but not proven. I was alluding to this correspondence earlier when I made the point about the objective world. If I make the following statement, “If the streets are wet, it must be raining,” I am saying something that is true about the world. But I am also saying something about the order of my own mind. Clearly, there are two things going on here, and they are both part of the same reality. In other words, we have a dualistic reality---a subject and an object---our mind and the world---an investigator and the object of the investigation. Are there cases in which we must construct and reconstruct models to put reason to use? Of course. Not everything is a simple as I made it out to be in the preceding paragraph. On the other hand, it often is just that simple. The models help with the precision and the texture of the research, but the basic realities remain fairly simple. I have used research methods in the hard sciences, and I know what it means to “yield results.” Still, the basic fact that the physical world is such that it will yield results in the first place is the primary principle in force. But it doesn’t stop even here. As both a practical and theoretical matter, the investigator must get the object of the investigation “in” his mind. This is a one way proposition, meaning that the reverse proposition is unthinkable, that is, the object of the investigation cannot get the investigator inside itself. Otherwise we would be the object of the investigation and the world would be analyzing us. What does it all mean? It means that the investigator is of a different substance than the object of the investigation. This is yet another principle that we must take for granted. Notice, that I haven’t really proved anything. That shouldn’t surprise us. None of these things can be proven; they must be assumed so that we can prove other things. The interesting part is this. Many scientists and philosophers seem scandalized by these obvious points because it reminds them of a concept that they have come to hate---design. The real irony is, that, thought they consciously deny it, unconsciously, and at an operation level, they believe it. In spite of what they say, they believe that the world exhibits reasonableness and that they are reasonable people. They may argue against the law of non-contradiction, but they assume it every day of their lives. Otherwise, they could not reason their way out of a paper bag, even in their own specialty. Still, they see fit to use the principles of reason to argue against design, forgetting that reason and design are two sides of the same coin. The orderliness of the world and its design simply will not submit to their agenda. How can it? It was already here before they arrived.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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-----vividBlue: "Stephen I did not mean to get Jack sidetracked." I see what you mean about responding to a tangential point. Further, I am certainly not the arbiter of truth on this or any other matter, nor can I claim the right to frame or reframe issues. Your humility if refreshing, especially from one who obviously has a great many relevant things to say on the subject. Your comments were in no way irrelevant, and there is no reason for me to think that you should conform to my agenda. I suspect that I may be taking my self a little to seriously, and I know exactly what to do about it. I think the word for it is "chill." Thanks for the comment.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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Jack, sorry to horn in here on things, but I'm wondering about your example of Feynman. Are you confusing QED and path integrals with quantum description of the hydrogen atom? I don't remember very well, but I believe it was it theoretically deriving the spin angular momentum of the hydrogen atom that they got accuracy to the level you're mentioning, and they only got to this level of accuracy when they took into account the spin of the electron, which was an added quantum number. I don't think this invalidates your point in any way, but I'm just wondering if this, in fact, is the example you're thinking of. As to non-Euclidian geometry, a pertinent point involving your on-going discussion may need to be made. For both Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry, axioms must be posited. These axioms represent intuitional thought. This kind of intuitional thought is transcendent. For example, Euclidean geometry would say that there is one, and only one, line that can be drawn through two points. But, now, what is a point? Can you point out a mathematical point for me? The answer is no. But the human mind can make abstractions and come up with axioms, and it knows how to apply it to real-life situations, but the former intellectual act is different in quality than the latter. But neither of these acts is material; they're BOTH immaterial acts of the intellect/mind. Any sense we have of what is "real" is an intellectual act, not a material act. Don't you agree?PaV
May 10, 2008
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to Stephen - OK, I'll try again. You quote me, from 139:
“Logic itself can’t tell us anything about the real world. Logic is a tool, but once we apply actual content, we have statements that may be logically correct but factually wrong, either because the premises we use as starting points are wrong, or because the modeling we do that associates the logical structure to the real world is wrong.”
and you write,
To state boldly that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world is to enter in to the theatre of the absurd.
I am claiming that you badly misunderstand me. Let me quote 124, the post in which I first made this point, and in respect to which the summary in 139 referred:
The law of non-contradiction, that something is either A or not-A, is a logical tool. However it, in and of itself, tells us nothing about the real world. Let me give an example. [snip example of how some things, such as whether a point on the earth is or is not on a mountain, don't naturally divide into two neat subsets, and therefore can't have the law of A or not-A applied without making some manmade and somewhat arbitrary distinctions> The more general point about both logic and math is this: their propositions are internally true, but in order to apply them to the real world we have to create a model in which the parts of the logical/mathematical system match up with parts of the real world. This second step - making the model - is not a purely logical operation: it is subject to various decisions on our part about how to name and categorize things. Furthermore, if we then draw logical conclusions about the model - a very powerful tool - we still have to test our conclusions against the real world because even though we trust the logic we don’t know for sure whether all the parts of the model are accurate.
Now note well that I point out that logic and math are powerful tools for understanding the world. I teach calculus, and one of the things I emphasize is that application of calculus to the real world. I know very well, and appreciate the wonder of it, that math, including logic, is clearly applicable to the real world. What I did say was that logic, in and of itself has no empirical content, and cannot tell us anything about the real world: associations between the logical structure and the physical world must be modeled and tested before we can declare that we know something about the physical world. Let me give a couple of examples. 1. Richard Feynman developed and perfected a very powerful and difficult mathematical tool, path integrals, to analyze interactions in quantum electrodynamics. This mathematical model predicts to value of certain constants to within 1/100,000,000 of their empirically measured values. This is a tremendous achievement, and proof that the model is accurate. Obviously math and logic can be applied to the real world as a tool for understanding. However, previous models didn't work well at all. This was not because the math they were using was defective, but because the real world was not being correctly modeled. There would be no way to tell which model was correct just by looking at the math - only when the math was tested against the world could we tell which was the correct formulation of a model. 2. A second famous example: it is well known that there are three different, entirely self-consistent geometries based on three different formulations of the parallel postulate, leading to spaces with positive, negative or zero curvature. Each is true in a purely mathematical sense. But the question of which geometrical model applies to a particular space (or section of space) is an empirical question that can only be answered by empirical investigation. (Gauss actually tried this using three mountaintops, but there was no way to take accurate enough measurements.) There is no way that logic itself can determine which of the three geometries is true about a particular area of space/ So let me summarize: 1. Logic and math are tools for manipulating symbols. They have an internally consistency which makes them true in respect to themselves. 2. Logic and math cannot, by themselves, tell us anything about the physical world: they must have empirical content added via a mathematical model. After the model is made, math and logic can be used to draw conclusions which will be true within the model (assuming no mistakes are made in the math and logic), but those truths cannot be considered truths about the physical world without being empirically tested. If they don't test out as true, the model must be adjusted. 3. Mathematical models do work, as the Feynman example illustrates. Our physical world does demonstrate mathematical and logical order - that is not in question either. The trick is finding the correct model, which involves a back-and-forth interplay between doing the math and testing the results. So, as I said earlier, math and logic are tools - powerful and successful tools - for understanding the physical world. But math and logic themselves have no empirical content: you can devise perfectly logical systems that have no relationship to reality if you wish, but you can't claim that just because something is logically true that it is also empirically true. Now I have taken quite a bit of time to explain myself. I hope you are willing to take all these points as a whole, and in context. And if you are so moved, you might reconsider your statement that I have "boldly stated that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world."Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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to Barry You ask, "Are you asking me by what physical mechanism the immaterial mind affects the material brain?" I am asking what your thoughts are as to how the immaterial (or metaphysical or transcendent or whatever you want to call it) affects the physical world. I did not use the phrase "physical mechanism." To recap: Vivid says that the fact that I, nor anyone, can not describe the physical nature of a thought (or, I presume, any event of consciousness) is an argument that consciousness is an immaterial, metaphysical thing. My counterpoint argument is that I don't think anyone can explain how an immaterial thing can affect the material world - how does this interface work? Clearly physical events are related to conscious events, in both directions. For instance, vivid gave a nice description of how the color blue, which starts as a property of the wavelength of light and proceeds to being the stimulus of nerve cells in the brain. How does the physical brain state make the jump, so to speak, to being a conscious perception. Conversely, I can think a thought and produce a bodily action. How does this happen? My argument is that your inability to explain this is as much of an argument against the mind being immaterial as my inability to describe the physical nature of consciousness is an argument against the mind being material. This is the question I am asking, and the point I am making.Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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"I shouldn’t blame you for taking advantage of the opportunity to escape." Stephen I did not mean to get Jack sidetracked. "Now I have questions about this, although I’m not sure anyone here is actually interested in discussing (rather than pontificating [Cf. 146 supra" Jack you need to recognize your part in this. What got me involved really started with Stephens post #57. Go back and read it. Your response or should I say lack of response prompted me into the fray so to speak. As Stephen pointed out you are very reluctant to commit yourself to certain questions. You have yet to interact with my questions asked all the way back in #63 nor #99 nor 117. And you have done the same with Stephen as well as KF. This is not to say that you have not expressed your personal opinion but you have not interacted with the arguments put forth. aking pronouncements and statements are not sufficient. Vivid When you do you make pronouncements such as "But I am firmly convinced that it is not self-evident that transcendent moral standards exist."vividblue
May 10, 2008
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To state boldly that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world is to enter in to the theatre of the absurd. -----Jack Krebs: "I didn’t say that. You appear to have no interest in actually trying to understand my points - that is why it is not worth my time to continue to discuss things with you." I present your own words to you: “Logic itself can’t tell us anything about the real world. Logic is a tool, but once we apply actual content, we have statements that may be logically correct but factually wrong, either because the premises we use as starting points are wrong, or because the modeling we do that associates the logical structure to the real world is wrong.” Tell me how my characterization differs from your statement. If my misunderstand you, I will make the necessary adjustments---in a congenial way.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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----Jack Krebs: "So why exactly is it Daniel and I who have derailed the thread? Because we responded to your comments?" Actually, I like your point. Everyone is, and has been, off the tracks in this discussion; I shouldn't hold you accountable for that. So, now you and DK are exempt from having to face the point about first principles. Even so, you are right. I shouldn't blame you for taking advantage of the opportunity to escape.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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Jack asks: "And how about the opposite question, Barry: how does the immaterial affect the material?" Jack, I'm not sure I understand. Are you asking me by what physical mechanism the immaterial mind affects the material brain?BarryA
May 10, 2008
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"Now I have questions about this, although I’m not sure anyone here is actually interested in discussing (rather than pontificating [Cf. 146 supra.])," Hi Jack, I hope to get somethig to you this evening if time permits. Vividvividblue
May 10, 2008
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Also, Stephen writes,
In any case, now that JK and DK have successfully derailed the discussion once again and taken it out of the arena of first princples and into the arena of science, I will simply observe the irrelevant discussion at this point.
I will point out that it was Stephen who brought up the subject of science in #118 when he wrote
As I have pointed out many times, the metaphysical foundations of science, which, by the way constitute self evident truths, take logical precedence over the science itself and are far more reliable.
and it was vivid who brought up the question of asking for the physical nature of an idea. So why exactly is it Daniel and I who have derailed the thread? Because we responded to your comments?Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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Stephen writes,
To state boldly that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world is to enter in to the theatre of the absurd
I didn't say that. You appear to have no interest in actually trying to understand my points - that is why it is not worth my time to continue to discuss things with you.Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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-----Jack: "Hmmm. Stephen chooses to be sarcastic and insulting, so I think my discussion with him is over." Desperate times require desperate measures. I tried to point out, at first, gently, and then, perhaps not so gently, that there are certain fundamental principles of reasoning that take logical precedence over science, communication, and our capacity to reason. It is one thing for someone to claim that these principles are not self evident; it is something else to dismiss them entirely and deny their reality. To state boldly that the laws of logic do not apply to the real world is to enter in to the theatre of the absurd. That this absurdity is common fare in the academy does not make it any less absurd. It is not the first time that I have been accused of insult and sarcasm for dramatizing the point, and strangely enough it always seems to happen when there is no answer to my point. Still, I am open to fraternal correction at any time, especially if I have violated reasonable standards of civility in my response@145. In this case, however, I would like to hear it from someone in my camp. If even one person thinks I went too far, I will apologize. No questions asked. In any case, now that JK and DK have successfully derailed the discussion once again and taken it out of the arena of first princples and into the arena of science, I will simply observe the irrelevant discussion at this point.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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And how about the opposite question, Barry: how does the immaterial affect the material? Does this question require an answer, or at least some evidence that it is going on?Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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Daniel King, a tremendous amount of research has been done in the area of qualia. No material explanation so far. Here's a more detailed post on the subject I did a couple of months ago. I challenge you to come up with a counter argument. https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/deep-blue-never-is-blue-that-is/BarryA
May 10, 2008
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Hi Apollos. Yes, I'm aware of that, and of the whole idea that the quantum level might the interface between the physical and the non-physical. This is a an entertaining area for speculation, and something may come of it some time, or not: as a friend of mine once said, there may never be a way to peer behind the quantum curtain. Also, there have been several times in the above conversation where I thought about pointing out that the quantum world doesn't seem to follow all the rules of logic that we are used to, and might in fact be a place where the law of non-contradiction (in some form or another) doesn't apply. However, even if we were able to show that the brain had large and or small scale quantum effects I'm not sure that would explain the experience of consciousness.Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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BarryA #143
Jack’s perception of the color blue is a metaphysical, not a physical experience, in that it cannot be reduced to the properties of any physical thing, such as his brain. It is a “qualia.” ... But the fact remains that Jack can never give an explanation of his perception of blue that can be reduced to the function of his brain.
BarryA argues by assertion. These are empirical statements, so if he has evidence to back them up, he needs to provide it. How can he know that a perception cannot be reduced to physical properties? This is a subject for scientific investigation, is it not?Daniel King
May 10, 2008
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Jack, a quantum or sub quantum reality is a good candidate for ~where (not how) immaterial mind interacts with material brain. Quantum behaviors seem, at least, loosely detached from time and space. And please don't mistake this wild speculation with any sort of dogma, but it's not like there are no weird, consciousness-level paradoxes with quantum reality. My hunch is that the brain is a big quantum computer that provides a bidirectional interface between immaterial mind and physical reality. *dons tin foil hat* Apollos
May 10, 2008
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Hmmm. Stephen chooses to be sarcastic and insulting, so I think my discussion with him is over. Barry's comment helps me understand something about this whole conversation that I hadn't realized was so central to our disagreements. For Barry, vivid et al, all thought - all activity in the conscious mind, I guess - is metaphysical (and presumably in touch with the transcendent). Therefore, if we have a thought that appears to be self-evident, it is automatically a transcendent self-evident truth. Now I have questions about this, although I'm not sure anyone here is actually interested in discussing (rather than pontificating [Cf. 146 supra.]), but my first question is how does this immaterial mind interface with the physical body? Vivid faults me for not being able to describe the physical way in which thought is manifested, and uses this as an argument that thought is immaterial, but I think he has the reverse problem: Vivid, can you describe how the immaterial mind manages to affect the material body? And does your inability to answer this question count as an argument that thought is not in fact immaterial? I don't believe that we know whether there is a non-material component to our consciousness, and if there is, to what kind of metaphysical reality it is connected, if at all. These are interesting philosophical questions, and as I have been pointing out, there are numerous possible answers, all speculative. (The idea that there are numerous possible answers doesn't seem to be a subject any of you wish to discuss.) You guys, however, appear to be thoroughly convinced that you know that the transcendent exists and that our minds have some infallible (at least at times) connection with it, because you believe that we can know, self-evidently and in our hearts, what some of those transcendental truths are. I don't believe that you are right to think that you are right about all that with such certainty, but obviously we disagree about that. You also think that my objections are faulty (in fact incoherent and absurd to some), and obviously we disagree about that also. But I do understand better why you guys think as you do, so that's good, and I think I understand some of my own thoughts better, and that's good also. Therefore there has been some value in the conversation for me - your mileage may differ.Jack Krebs
May 10, 2008
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Stephen B PREZACTLY. QED again, per reductio ad absurdum. [JK as a math teacher will appreciate.] Okay, time to go out of this public library now . . . GEM of TKIkairosfocus
May 10, 2008
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Elaborating: Self-evident truths are: 1] immediately known on insightful inspection, i.e once we properly understand what is being claimed about their terms and the relationships among the terms, 2] this, in light of our constitution and experience of reality as conscious, intelligent verbalising agents. 3] known without proof, indeed often they are the foundation of proofs. 4] the are not true by mere arbitrary definitions of words, or being analytic, indeed, often the attempt to define one term ends up bringing out the whole cluster i.e. we have a rephrasing using the same core concepts. [Cf that a finite whole is greater than any of its proper parts. Try to define each term without dragging in the other concepts and their relationships.] 5] they are truths about reality that we may refer to accurately and intelligibly in sentences. 6] rejecting them leads straight to incoherence, absurdities and confusions The law of non-contradiction is a case in point. It is a law of reality before we put it into words, it is plainly so once we reflect on it, and it is a premise for proofs, indeed for all proofs. That comes out as soon as we open our mouths, even before we assert something is so to begin speaking and arguing. QED, yet again GEM of TKI PS: the existence of such self-evident truths does not require any a priori metaphysical commitments, beyond those we need to make to accept that we are having a conversation. It is the implications of such self-evident truths that are fatal to evolutionary materialism. PPS: you are right, JK to say "I don’t know what the physical nature of consciousness is . . . " For, it -- especially on rational thought and associated intelligent action -- is radically different from what mechanical necessity plus chance can credibly deliver by acting on matter + energy on the gamut of the observed cosmos. Such is indeed, META-physical, beyond the physical.kairosfocus
May 10, 2008
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----Jack Krebs: "Logic itself can’t tell us anything about the real world. Logic is a tool, but once we apply actual content, we have statements that may be logically correct but factually wrong, either because the premises we use as starting points are wrong, or because the modeling we do that associates the logical structure to the real world is wrong." -----"So StephenB is wrong about me, I think, and wrong to think that I am dissembling." ------"So instead of questioning my honesty and trying to tell me what he thinks I really am, perhaps Stephen would like to discuss the more specific issues:So instead of questioning my honesty and trying to tell me what he thinks I really am, perhaps Stephen would like to discuss the more specific issues:" Actually, Jack, you really shouldn’t draw that conclusion. It may appear to you that I wrote those things about you, but that only happened in the real world. Your world of subjective logic, while internally consistent, can tell you nothing about the real world. So, it isn’t fair for you to make that leap from your world to the real world and assume that I question your sincerity. Actually, I don’t feel that way at all. I think that you are a paragon of sincerity. I am offended that you would make that leap of faith from your world of subjective logic to the outside world of reality and conclude that I question your intentions. I think that it is pure coincidence that you want to discuss the morality of war while avoiding the morality of abortion. I wouldn’t dream of suggesting that there is any kind of politically correct bias involved. That you are so certain about Darwinian science and so skeptical about the usefulness of logic is just one of those things. I’m sure that it doesn’t really reveal anything about your willingness to engage in meaningful dialogue. In fact, the event that you allude to did not happen. I didn’t write that post--- at least not in any sense that you can pin down. Your personal rationality may convince you that I did, but I can assure you, based on my personal rationality that I did not. Of course, in another sense, I did. In your subjective world of logic, the law of non-contradiction applies, but in the real world it doesn’t. In the real world, contradictions happen all the time. In fact, that is exactly what happened in this case; I wrote it, but I did not write it. Both of those facts are true. In any case, I agree with you that logic tells us nothing about the real world, and I am sure that you find that principle very liberating. Subjectively, you may think that if the streets are wet in must be raining, but in the real world, rainless conditions generate wet streets all the time. In fact, sometimes the reverse occurs. Sometimes, as it turns out, it rains and the streets do not get wet. Now I realize that your internal logic may tell you that this is impossible, but you ought not to make any such leap. In fact, contrary to popular opinion, the streets can be wet and not wet at the same time. In any case, if I were to propose to you that the streets really do get wet when it is raining, I am sure that you would start a new line of discussion on the definition of “wetness.” Or, we might have a little dialogue on the formal definition of “rain.” Are the streets really wet when it is sprinkling? What is the difference between a mist and a sprinkle? I look forward to the dialogue. I realize that you are not speaking to me right now, because you believe that I actually wrote that offensive post. But I feel certain that you will soon abandon that rigid position, when you finally come to realize that drawing such conclusions about the real world based on internal logic are unwarranted.StephenB
May 10, 2008
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