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BarryA Responds to DaveScot

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In Bass Ackwards Darwinism (below) my friend DaveScott writes:

 “Good people do good things.  Evil people do evil things.  Knowledge (like Darwinian evolution and the recipe for dynamite) is inanimate and can be employed by good people for good things and evil people for evil things.”

The issue is not whether “good” people do good things.  Of course they do.  That’s why we call them “good.”  The issue is not whether “evil” people do evil things.  Again, of course they do.  That’s why we call them “evil.”  The issue is what do we mean when we say “good” and “evil.”  From the answer to that question everything else about our ethics follows.

Some people (mainly theists of various stripes) say “good” means that which conforms to a moral standard that transcends place, time, opinion, personality, social constructs and everything else, and “evil” means that which does not conform to that transcendent standard.  I will call these people transcendent standard advocates or TSA’s for short.

Other people say no such transcendent standard exists.  I will call these people materialists. 

Now here is the crux of the matter.  TSAs may be wrong.  There may not be a transcendant moral standard after all, and the appearance of such a standard (what C.S. Lewis calls the “Tao” in the Abolition of Man) may be an illusion.  But at least they can give a rational account for the basis of their morality, i.e., the transcendent standard exists.  All of our moral choices are either consistent with that standard or inconsistent with that standard.  We can argue about the exact parameters of the standard.  There will be gray areas.  But to say that some areas are gray is very different from saying everything is gray. 

On the other hand, after centuries of striving materialists have failed to provide a rational account for morality.  Indeed, thoughtful and courageous materialists (I’m thinking of Frederic Nietzsche and Will Provine) have argued that the premises of materialism absolutely preclude a conclusion that ethics or morality have any firm foundation.

Turning back to DaveScott’s post, he says that he does “good” because he intuitively understands and abides by the golden rule.  In other words, Dave bases his morality on his intuition.   

Here is the problem with this formulation in classical terms:  What is the Good?  Dave and the TSAs agree that the Good is that which is desirable.  So far so good (so to speak).  But the more important question is “what is the desirable?”  Dave believes the desirable is that which he actually desires based on his intuition about the golden rule.  TSAs believe the desirable is that which Dave OUGHT to desire.   If, as is the case with Dave, what is actually desired corresponds with what ought to be desired, there is no problem.

The problem for Dave’s philosophy is what happens when someone has a disordered desire.  What if this person (let’s call him Bob) desires to have sex with little children.  Dave will say to him “I have a strong intuition that sex with little children is profoundly wrong.”  Bob will reply, “Why should I care what your intuition tells you?  If I can get away with an activity that gives me pleasure, why should I restrain myself?  Surely you are not suggesting your intuition, i..e, your opinion, is in any way binding on me.”

Dave might reply, “But Bob, it is plain that you ought not have sex with little children.”  Now, if Dave means by “ought” that he has a strong intuition that sex with little children is wrong because it violates the golden rule, he has done no more than repeat himself using different terms.  He has not answered Bob’s objection.  On the other hand, if Dave means by “ought” that sex with little children breaks an obvious moral standard that transcends his and Bob’s opinion, he has not acted logically given his premise that no such standard exists.

At the end of the day, Dave can appeal to a standard that transcends his intuition or he can appeal to his intuition.  If he does the former, he has implicitly admitted the TSA premise.  If he does the latter, he has given Bob no rational reason for refraining from his activity.  Dave has only said, “I do not agree with it.”

What does this have to do with Darwin?  Darwin’s theory does not compel belief in materialism any more than ID compels a belief in God.  But many people believed (especially in late 19th century Europe and North America) that Darwin’s theory was evidence of the triumph of materialist science over the superstition of religion.  This had a profound impact on our social institutions. 

In most of the recent posts this impact has been explored in the context of the holocaust.  I will not add to that debate.  Instead, I will give an example from my own field of the law.   As I have written before, it is not an overstatement to say that the modern era of American law began with the publication in 1897 of “The Path of the Law” by Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.   In this seminal work Holmes announced that it was time to jettison the notion that the law has anything to do with morality, because morality has no meaning.  Holmes wrote, “For my own part, I often doubt whether it would not be a gain if every word of moral significance could be banished from the law altogether, and other words adopted which should convey legal ideas uncolored by anything outside the law.”

With “The Path of the Law” Holmes had founded the school of “legal realism,” and this theory gradually came to be the predominate theory of jurisprudence in the United States.  “Legal realism” should more properly be called “legal materialism” because Holmes denied the existence of any objective “principles of ethics or admitted axioms” to guide judges’ rulings.  In other words, the law is not based upon principles of justice that transcend time and place.  The law is nothing more than what willful judges do, and the “rules” they use to justify their decision are tagged on after they have decided the case according to their personal preferences.  At its bottom legal realism is a denial of the objective existence of a foundation of moral norms upon which a structure of justice can be built.

Why would Holmes deny the objective existence of morality?  This is where the influence of Darwin comes in.  It is one of the darker secrets of our nation’s past that Holmes, perhaps the most venerated of all our Supreme Court justices, was a fanatical — I used that word advisedly — Darwinist who advocated eugenics and the killing of disabled babies. I n Buck v. Bell Holmes wrote “It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind . . . Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” As Phillip Johnson has written, Holmes was a “convinced Darwinist who profoundly understood the philosophical implications of Darwinism.”

“The Origin of Species” was published in 1859.  By 1897, when Holmes wrote “The Path of the Law,” Darwinism had had become an unchallengeable scientific orthodoxy accepted as a matter of course by practically all intellectuals. Holmes thought he had no choice but to believe Darwinism and to accept uncritically the philosophical materialism that most people of this time believed followed inexorably from Darwin’s ideas, and his great contribution to American law was to reconcile the philosophy of law with the philosophy of materialism.

Once they were unleashed from any duty to actually apply objective “rules of law,”  judges soon found they could impose their political views on the rest of us under the guise of interpreting the United States Constitution.  The federal judiciary’s long march through our laws, traditions and institutions began slowly in the 1930’ss but rapidly gathered momentum until, in 1973 in the most stunning example of judicial willfulness in our nation’s history, the Supreme Court invalidated the abortion laws of all 50 states.

So you see legal realism was built step by step, precept by precept, upon a foundation of philosophical materialism that in turn rests upon the triumph of Darwin for its acceptance. And upon this foundation was built a superstructure of judicial willfulness that resulted ultimately in Roe v. Wade.  Each link in the causal chain is plain to see for anyone who takes the time to look.

Obviously, I take for granted that abortion — the taking of an innocent human life — is immoral.  In the discussion thread I will not debate this topic, as it is beyond the scope of UD.  I will just say this:  If you believe an unborn baby is not human you are ignorant.  If you believe that taking that baby’s life is not immoral, you are deeply confused morally.

Comments
For legal and historical background, see Defending the Declaration Gary T. Amos, (1989-1994) Providence Foundation Charlottesville VA, ISBN 1-887456-05-8. In Chapter 3, Amos traces the well established legal/historical usage and meaning of "Self Evident Truths". e.g., via: Matthew Tindal, Christianity as Old as the Creation(1730). John Locke, Essay on Human Understanding (1690), Thomas Aquinas, (1225-1274) in Summa. St. John of Damascus (d. 749) in De Fide Orthodoxa. Paul, Romans 1,2. English "self-evident" is a translation of the Latin per se notum ("known through the instrumentality of oneself"). This in turn of the Greek phaneros en autois (evident in themselves) from Romans 1:19. Similarly, tois poiemasin nooumena kathoratai (by means of things that are made, being understood, being clearly seen) etc.DLH
May 6, 2008
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Fortunately the "transcendent standard" doesn't depend upon a bearded thunderer, or upon opinion, or tradition, or culture, or upon the Tao, about which one must become enlightened. The "transcendent standard" is life. As itself, life transcends mortal existence. Life is holy, since it cannot be divided and still be life. It is also the "light of men," the good, since it alone among all values known to men is absolutely desirable (viz, we're blogging). The law and the prophets are neither arbitrary nor conditioned. They reflect the value of life. They are summed up in one command: to love one another. And this command is firmly rooted in the sanctity of life. This accounts for the similarity between moral codes; not the Tao, which is interpretable. The ancient Hebrews were given only one name for God: "I am." Note that the "I" and the "am" are joined together as a unity--pure subject and also pure object. There is no division between immanence and transcendence, as there is in methods of discerning "the good" that are rooted in intellect and its qualitative force of resistance. That's because, in the sacred text, "the good" is not intellect, as it was for the philosophers. The good is life, the light of wisdom and understanding and substance of the way.allanius
May 6, 2008
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The USA was legally founded by an appeal to transcendent moral law by the Declaration of Independence. ("USC The Declaration of Independence - 1776" remains the first organic law in the United States Code) King and Parliament breached the Colonists constitutional right of petition for redress of grievances as guaranteed by the Magna Carta #61.
we give and grant to them the underwritten security, . . . that if we, or our justiciar, or our bailiffs or any one of our officers, shall in anything be at fault towards anyone, or shall have broken any one of the articles of this peace or of this security, . . .petition to have that transgression redressed without delay.
All constitutional basis having failed, the American Colonists then appealed to the highest transcendent law:
. . .to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them. . .
We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; . . .
. . , appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, . . .
. . .with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, . . .
. . .we mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.
Each of these clauses refers to transcendent moral values.DLH
May 6, 2008
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The whole issue revolves around the primacy of transcendence.. To presuppose that lifeless dirt can give rise to the transcendent love that is required for the Golden Rule is as ludicrous as believing that one rock can "love" another rock. Yet in materialism anything goes so it is of necessity to actually prove the physical reality of a dominant transcendent reality which has dominion over the material reality. This proof is accomplished partially through Dr. Anton Zeilinger's work in quantum non-locality. He actually proves the transcendence and dominion of "spiritual information" over the material/energy realm. This in conjuntion with the failure of gravity to be tied to the material/energy realm and timeless (eternal) nature of light as well as the sheer poverty and discoherence of the "many world's interpretation" in quantum mechanics, in my humble opinion, forces one to accept the reality of a higher, timeless, transcendent, dimension from which our "material" reality has its primary reality based. Dr. Anton Zeilinger is even confident enough of the reality and dominion of this transcendent realm he manipulates in his quantum teleportation experments to state: http://www.metanexus.net/Magazine/ArticleDetail/tabid/68/id/8638/Default.aspx In conclusion it may very well be said that information is the irreducible kernel from which everything else flows. Then the question why nature appears quantized is simply a consequence of the fact that information itself is quantized by necessity. It might even be fair to observe that the concept that information is fundamental is very old knowledge of humanity, witness for example the beginning of gospel according to John: "In the beginning was the Word". Anton Zeilinger Professor of Physics Transcendence of the material realm is now firmly established to overwhelming degree, thus why should we presuppose that any absolute moral standard such as the Golden rule would arise naturally from the material realm when it would be much more reasonable to presuppose that this absolute standard for moral conduct has its origination and primacy in the higher transcendent realm which gives rise to this "material" universe in the first place? As well it just seems clear and reasonable to me that since love even exist in the first place, then of logical necessity there must be an ultimate source for love to come from. Indeed for me, love has an element of primacy that I would classify as almost being foundational and independent of any other "building blocks"!bornagain77
May 6, 2008
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We are going around in circles, and obviously aren't going to get any place. For instance, Stephen says,
It is the same with morality. All moral behavior is based on the assumption that moral truth is transcendent. It is not something that rational people prove; it is something that they assume.
Well, no, all rational people don't assume that. In fact some rational people are loath to assume things that are not knowable and might very well be false. Now if you define rational to mean one who agrees with you and makes the assumption that the transcendent exists, then you are begging the question. So what I gather is that your belief in the transcendent is so strongly held that you can not conceive of it being any other way: that it is "self evidently true and any rational person would assume it to be so" is self-evidently true ... and so on forever with no further evidence or reasoning to back it up. I, however, am a rational person, and the existence of the transcendent is not self-evidently true to me (nor is it's absence self-evidently true to me, either, by the way), and therefore I do not assume it. So it is clear to me that you don't really know that the transcendent exists, but rather that you assume it, and then have build a circular chain of reasonings and feelings that make it seem as if what you assume must in fact be so.Jack Krebs
May 6, 2008
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“Self-evidency” is not a very clear nor reliable criteria, and neither is the notion of “reasonable,” as clearly different people, learned and sincere, often disagree about what is self-evident and reasonable" -----"Your and Barry’s assertions about what appears to you as self-evident and written in the heart are not addressing the question of how do you know that what you strongly feel is true is in fact a transcendent truth?" Self evident truths are the best and the most reliable of all truths. Science, for example, is based on the self evident truth that we live in a rational universe. Even if science was infalliable, and it is a long way from being that, it could be no reliable that the self-evident metephysical truth that it rests on. It is the same with morality. All moral behavior is based on the assumption that moral truth is transcendent. It is not something that rational people prove; it is something that they assume. If there was no such thing as human conscience, there could be no such thing as self govenment. People can rule themselves only on condition that they can apprehend the natural moral law.StephenB
May 6, 2008
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How would we know if something were transcendent or not unless we ourselves are able to transcend the strictly material. If, however, we are able to transcend the material, then we have a capacity that itself is transcendent. This transendent/spiritual component of our being obviously did not come from the strictly material since it is able to transcend the strictly material. Hence, our nature is composed of that which is transcendent and that which is material. Put another way, "natural law" cannot possibly exist unless we have a spiritual nature. How do you think Darwin would answer? I have my ideas.PaV
May 6, 2008
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"Self-evidency" is not a very clear nor reliable criteria, and neither is the notion of "reasonable," as clearly different people, learned and sincere, often disagree about what is self-evident and reasonable. Not only that, being self-evident is not necessarily the same thing as arising from a transcendent source. Your and Barry's assertions about what appears to you as self-evident and written in the heart are not addressing the question of how do you know that what you strongly feel is true is in fact a transcendent truth? Do you not see the difference? You and I might agree on a particular moral value, and we might even agree that it seems "self-evident," and yet we might disagree about whether that feeling of self-evidency stems from anything transcendent.Jack Krebs
May 6, 2008
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-----Jack Krebs: "It is, in my opinion, irrelevant to claim that belief in transcendent standards is superior to lack of such a belief if in fact there is no way to know if one’s belief in the existence of such transcendent standards is true." I submit the natural moral law is self evident to all reasonable people. Inasmuch as you evidently disagree with that statement, I must ask you again: Which of the Ten Commandments from four to ten is not self evident to you?StephenB
May 6, 2008
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Every law has a giver. If there is a transcendant moral code, then logically there must be a transcendant moral code giver. There can be no legislation unless there's a legislature.Barb
May 6, 2008
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My take on this is that the morality we all might “just know” is really the morality that we feel that would benefit ourselves as well in a society that fully implemented it.
So, when we see cooperation between members of species (or between different species) in nature are they operating based on a transcendental moral code?specs
May 6, 2008
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Dave: "I can’t even get many people to agree that killing other living things that are not causing you harm is, in principle, a violation of so-called natural law and rest assured that nothing will persuade me otherwise" I'd like you to clarify that please. Are you saying no killing of any living thing is morally acceptable? In your view at least? Do you eat? I presume so. Then what? Thanks. But you see, no matter what you answer, if there is no ultimate external rule governing life itself and declaring the value of life forms, it doesn't matter in the least. The ONLY way of measuring Right and Wrong is through a transcendent, objective Rule. And that rule is written on the heart by the Designer as sure as you exist. Only mind can have preferences. Only mind can will on thing over another. You're once again doing exactly what Lewis and others state that all those who deny an objective moral standard do - you're confirming it by your assuming it. You assume it in your implications and underlying presumption that there really is a real Right and thus a real Wrong. Otherwise why even defend your view? Or any view? As I say elsewhere here, all debate assumes that truth and falsehood really exist. And all morality necessarily assumes a real objective Right or Ought - even when it is denied. Again, if materialism is true then all rationality stems from non rational processes and thus has no meaning. But as Lewis said, "If whole the universe has no meaning then we should never have found out it has no meaning just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning" "If nothing is self-evident, nothing can be proved. Similarly if nothing is obligatory for its own sake, nothing is obligatory at all." --The Abolition of Man "Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator. In most modern scientists this belief has died: it will be interesting to see how long their confidence in uniformity survives it. Two significant developments have already appeared - the hypothesis of a lawless sub-nature, and the surrender of the claim that science is true. We may be living nearer than we suppose to the end of the Scientific Age." M. D. Aeschliman C. S. Lewis on Mere Science 1998 First Things Dave I think you'd really like Lewis' Abolition of Man or Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain. And here's what I hope you're ready to realize: "Until you have given up your self to Him you will not have a real self."Borne
May 6, 2008
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As for why some societies, like Muslims extremists who hate Jews, don't seem to "know the Tao" towards Jews, is because the young are vigorously indoctrinated, and the cycle perpetuates itself. Take any child and raise him in a home where the Golden Rule is revered, and I doubt he's going to hate anyone, let alone Jews. Etc. In such a case, the Tao (which I consider the default condition) can flower.mike1962
May 6, 2008
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t is, in my opinion, irrelevant to claim that belief in transcendent standards is superior to lack of such a belief if in fact there is no way to know if one’s belief in the existence of such transcendent standards is true.
Indeed. And how valuable is a code, transcendent or otherwise, that, by Barry's own admission, is full of gray areas. I would think a lawyer, like Barry, would value clarity in a moral code. Yet he seems to hold his moral code giver to a lower standard than he does his fellow members of the bar.specs
May 6, 2008
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...in other words, "we just do", translates into, "I want to be treated well, so I want to be part of a society that treats me well, and I will treat them well also, to our mutual benefit." "We just do" equates to an impulse to maximize mutual benefit.mike1962
May 6, 2008
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BarryA : Great post. A lot of great posts. A lot of good reasonings. Of course the only way I can say that is if there's really a rule by which one CAN measure "good" reasoning. ;-) If there isn't, then this whole discussion is useless as no one can be either right or wrong.Borne
May 6, 2008
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BarryA: The answer is: We just do. My take on this is that the morality we all might "just know" is really the morality that we feel that would benefit ourselves as well in a society that fully implemented it. "You shall not murder" is not only good for someone I might wish to kill, but it is good for me too that nobody kills me. Most of us would prefer a world where this sort of "fairness" is maximized for the benefit of all, including our selfish, self-preserving selves. These seems to me a plausible basis of the Tao that one might "know."mike1962
May 6, 2008
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Jack Krebs wrote: ". . . if in fact there is no way to know if one’s belief in the existence of such transcendent standards is true." Do you mean there is no way for an individual to know, or that there is no way for them to prove it to others? Barry's answer may not be satisfying, but it is a definite possibility. Indeed when one looks at the whole of history, there do seem to be some general principles that nearly all societies have tried to uphold. Why is that? Sheer dumb luck, an accident of societies, a coincidental societal contract that keeps repeating itself? Or perhaps it is a collective expression of what Barry suggests may be written in the heart (if one is willing to look there).Eric Anderson
May 6, 2008
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BarryA in 32, Maybe it's like mathematics---the axioms we just know---and we reason from there (the fundamental categores and rules of reason we just know). But the formalists deny any transcendence---it's just a game we play. Also is not our take on morality based largely on whether we believe there is a great Judge out there who will hold us to account? And whether or not there is life in the world to come? Otherwise I can balance my smarting conscience against my pleasure centers and make the choice I want because ultimately it doesn't matter---and therein, I submit, Darwin has proven quite popular. Anyway not every culture has developed mathematics, just as our post-modernist touchy-feelies now would abandon it and all logic. And so likewise morality is not always very well developed, and therefore, as it says, "For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem." If there's no God it all fails---meanwhile we must live in a world where the Deity can be ignored with no immediate consequences. But good will prevail as long as enough people care and speak out and do what they can---not to impose their way on all others but to insure that the life and liberty of all be respected. And that's what scares me! Maybe Expelled will help turn the tide.Rude
May 6, 2008
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StephenB writes,
Assuming that you would be less than enthusiastic about the first three of the Ten Commandments (having to do with our obligation to God), which ones from four through ten would you challenge?
That's not the question being addressed. The question is how we can know that certain moral rules are transcendent standards. How does anyone know that their belief about some aspect of transcendent reality is true, or even that such a transcendent reality exists? Barry says we "know it our heart." I don't believe that answers the question. It is, in my opinion, irrelevant to claim that belief in transcendent standards is superior to lack of such a belief if in fact there is no way to know if one's belief in the existence of such transcendent standards is true.Jack Krebs
May 6, 2008
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Dave It doesn't matter if all people can agree or not on a universal transcendental moral standard. That of course is not true and never has been. For example in many Islamic cultures honor killing is seen as morally good, whereas in the rest of the world you would go to prison or be executed by the state for honor kiling. That is all besides the point. The impact of Darwin's theories on the elites of western civilization was to make all transcendental morality, in fact the concept of transcendental morality, regarded as outmoded and unscientific. They were free to become gods of their own world by using "SCIENCE" as their new moral guidance for their exploitative designs on the common masses. Of course "SCIENCE" is mute, it's dead, knowing that they knew therefore anyone could invent any type of social policy and justify it as morally "good" through their invocation of "SCIENCE" and "PROGRESS" as the highest authority. That was the goal i.e to replace transcendental authority which forbade them from their exploitative activity and which made them "sinners" in the vision of the masses. As long as the mass of people see the ruling elites as sinners before their Gods then the elites will be fearful of the masses coming to destroy them and their plans. The end of slavery made this reality very clear when religious people forced the end of slavery in the British Empire through which the British Empire had built it's great wealth upon. Darwin's theories were jumped upon by an already godless elite class who saw the propaganda value of his theories as very valuable for changing mass public opinion about what is considered ultimate authority. This was why the Soviet Union outlawed religion, and why subsequent communist regimes attempted to so as well. The idea is to replace a transcendental authority with a human authority. In order to do that they needed to prove that transcendental authority was bogus because there is no supra-intellect supra-moral God to create or enforce a moral teaching or code. Darwin is what they used for that goal. That is simply historical reality. Ever since Darwin came on the scene his theories have been used in an attempt by elites in society to destroy belief in transcendental authority. And it is in fact the main ideology which is inspiring those who attack ID. They want to be free from transcendental authority and openly claim that they fear the ID movement is a "trojan horse" for the implementation of theocractic rule. Like in the past they are trying to use Darwin to destroy belief in God for political purposes. Dawkins et all are very open about this. The Nazis were also using Darwin in order to gain acceptance for their immoral activities. Their role in the eugenics movement was greatly praised by leading academics and politicians outside of Germany before it became politically incorrect to do so. The goal was always to use "SCIENCE" as ultimate authority as a cover for their own exploitative actions. Darwin's theory was needed to remove God as ultimate authority in order to install "SCIENCE" and "PROGRESS" as the new gods controlled by the elites of society.mentok
May 6, 2008
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----"Jack Krebs quotes Mike1962 “How do we know what the TSA morality is?” and asks: “How about Mike’s question?” Assuming that you would be less than enthusiastic about the first three of the Ten Commandments (having to do with our obligation to God), which ones from four through tem would you challenge?StephenB
May 6, 2008
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Jack Krebs quotes Mike1962 “How do we know what the TSA morality is?” and asks: “How about Mike’s question?” The answer is: We just do. You can say it is written on our hearts if you like, but no one had to teach you that it is wrong, for example, to murder or steal. This not to say that there will not be hard questions. As I said above, we are fallen. But again, to say that there are gray areas is very different from saying everything is gray.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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DaveScott, go back and read what you wrote: You said: “I believe I know the transcendent moral code and relative moral codes is what I have to accept in compromise when your transcendent codes differ from mine.” It seems to me that you are saying that transcendent morality is measured by what you believe. If that is not solipsism I don’t know what is. If I have misunderstood you, please let me know. I believe I understand with near perfect clarity the core of the Tao: Do as you would be done by. Do not murder. Do not steal. Do not bear false witness, etc., etc. But I know I have a fallen nature, and I know I am not able to understand how the Tao applies in every situation. Therefore, I approach some ethical questions (but by no means all) tentatively and with a sense of my fallenness, knowing that I could be wrong. I think this would be especially true if I came to an ethical conclusion that the vast majority of people disagreed with. Take your “don’t kill innocent living things” principle. Where do you draw the line? Some wackadoodles are now advocating for plants rights! See the link at the end of this comment. You do not seem to approach this ethical question with any sense that you might possibly be wrong and the overwhelming majority of humans throughout the history of the world might possible be right. That’s why I say you are teetering on the brink of solipsism and we have no common frame of reference. http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=15065&R=13A782CBBarryA
May 6, 2008
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7 mike1962 05/06/2008 3:11 pm How do we know what the TSA morality is?
How about Mike's question?Jack Krebs
May 6, 2008
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-----Dave: "I can’t even get many people to agree that killing other living things is, in principle, a violation of so-called natural law and rest assured that nothing will persuade me otherwise. My idea of natural law will always trump yours as far as I’m concerned." If you don't accept the natural moral law, on what principle would you build a well ordered society? I take it you agree that Sharia law is not a good idea. Also, I am sure that you will not allude to "reason," which is a totally meaningless answer, inasmuch as it begs the question about which ethic reason would have us use.StephenB
May 6, 2008
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Barry I say I won't ever completely agree with you on what are transcendent values and all of a sudden we have no common frame of reference at all? What a copout. We have more in common than not. You can't deal with having to agree to disagree on some things? DaveScot
May 6, 2008
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DaveScott, I can only say that, to me at least, you appear to be teetering on the brink of solipsism. Therefore, we have no common frame of reference in which to argue.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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faithandshadow writes: “It’s irrelevant what universal moral law a person or group actually follows or which is true.” Nonsense: This statement is logically incoherent. If the moral law is “universal” there cannot be more than one. faithandshadow goes on: “ In this country, it happens to be the Christian ethic. In Arabia, it’s Islam.” Nonsense. See the C.S. Lewis quote from Mere Christianity above. You are wrong. There is no such thing as a “Christian ethic” or an “Islamic ethic.” There is only the Tao. This might surprise you coming from a Christian. It should not. Jesus was a brilliant ethical teacher, but he himself said that what he was teaching was not new. His ethical teachings were there all along for those who sought them. Christianity is radically distinct from other religions theologically. But Jesus never purported to establish a “new” system of ethics. faithandshadow goes on: “In this nation, all men have inalienable rights endowed by their Creator. (In Arabia, you can cross Jews off that list.) Nonsense. A Jew in Arabia has the same inalienable rights as a Jew in New York. Whether those rights are respected is another question. If this were not so we would have no right to say an Arab in Arabia was wrong if he murdered a Jew. But I am sure you agree it is just as evil for an Arab to murder a Jew in Arabia as in New York. faithandnonsense goes on: “In materialistic nations, such as the now-defunct USSR and Cuba, God isn’t their [sic] to subdue their consciences and the leaders can oppress their peoples without feeling guilty. Nonsense. The issue is not whether Stalin felt guilty when he murdered millions of Ukrainians or whether Mao felt guilty when tens of millions died at his hands or whether Pol Pot felt guilty for the killing fields. This is the very point I made in the post. Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot had disordered desires. To Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, the Good was the desirable and the desirable was what they actually desired, i.e., killing millions of their own countrymen to achieve their ends. As Lewis says in Mere Christianity, if the Tao does not exist or if it is not manifest to all, we have no more right to blame Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot for their killing than for the color of their hair. The Tao does exist and it is manifest. Therefore, I can say – in an absolute sense – that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were evil. And when I say they were evil I mean they were evil. I do not mean, simply, that at the end of the day I disagree with them.BarryA
May 6, 2008
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BarryA Lewis? Core of the Tao? Universal agreement? I doubt it. I can't even get many people to agree that killing other living things that are not causing you harm is, in principle, a violation of so-called natural law and rest assured that nothing will persuade me otherwise. My idea of natural law will always trump yours as far as I'm concerned. I'm not at all laboring under any burden of giving your notions of morality the same respect as I give my own. You might have me confused with someone who believes in a relative moral code. Like countless others I believe I know the transcendent moral code and relative moral codes is what I have to accept in compromise when your transcendent codes differ from mine. And that's the really the problem. This universal agreement you speak of is as non-existent as the settled science of anthropogenic global warming.DaveScot
May 6, 2008
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