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Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered

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In a recent post I asked the following question.

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

Then I waited for the answers to come in. I was not disappointed, and I would like to express a hearty “thank you” to the proponents of modern evolutionary theory who participated in the exercise.

I have gone through the comments, and the proponents have nominated the following list as tenets on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree:

1. Common descent

2. Modern organisms descend from very ancient ones.

3. The differences among related lineages have accumulated over many generations of change.

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

5. The relative success of those heritable traits is the basis of evolutionary change.

6. Selection is an important evolution force.

7. Populations connected by gene flow evolve together absent very strong selection pull each population in different directions.

8. Selection is important (I am not sure how this is different from 6).

9. Drift exists.

10. Allopatric speciation is possible.

11. Most speciation processes fit somewhere between the extremes of sympatric speciation and allopatric speciation.

12. All of modern life shares common ancestry, HGT and orphan genes notwithstanding.

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

14. A parallel process of concentration/dilution of such variant alleles occurs (concentration of one is inevitably dilution of the other), by both sample error (drift) and systematic bias (selection).

15. Only frequency-dependent selection can oppose the progress of such an allele through to the fixation of one variant and elimination of the other. This is rare, so origin-fixation is the norm, long-term. [Later withdrawn]

16. Iterated occurrences of such fixations inevitably change lineages.

17. Isolated gene pools diverge.

18. Species differences are fundamentally due to the tendency of this divergence to proceed beyond the point of interfertility (isolation through prezygotic and postzygotic mechanisms).

19. Higher taxa result from ongoing divergences of historic species.

20. Transition-transversion biases in substitution are due to a biochemical tendency increasing yields of one product over the other.

21. Codon position biases occur and are due to the relative effects of selection and drift on synonymous vs nonsynonymous sites.

OK then. Let’s take a look at this list. They seem to fall into the following five categories.

Category 1: Who doesn’t believe that?

Pretty much everyone on the planet would agree with the following proposition: Animals and plants are different now than they were in the past. Thus, the proposition – while at some trivial level a tenant of modern evolutionary theory – is not that which sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power. Even young earth creationists believe it. Therefore, these propositions cannot be the basis for any claim that the theory (as opposed to some other theory) is true. From the above list the following fall into this category: 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.

Category 2: Trivial

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

Yes, all evolution proponents agree that genetics exists.

Category 3. It is simply not true that all evolution proponents believe it

It is simply not true, for example, that all evolution proponents believe that natural selection plays more than a non-trivial role in the process. It is also not true that all proponents believe sympatric speciation occurs. 5, 8 and 11 fall into this category. See here and here.

Category 4. I Don’t know what claim is being made

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

Is the proponent of this claim stating that genetic change and only genetic change causes change in a lineage? If so, it is clearly not the case that all proponents of the theory agree with this; indeed most of them would dispute it. Is the proponent claiming merely that genetics change occurs and somehow that gets fixed in a species? If that is the case, it would fall under category 1.

Catategory 5. Withdrawn: claim 15.

CONCLUSIONS

My suspicions have been confirmed. Proponents of modern evolutionary theory all agree on a set of propositions that even most fervent young earth creationist would also agree on. And nothing more as far as I can tell.

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree. By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true. I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls, and, as I said above, sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

UPDATE:

In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here:

Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled “Cambrian.” First, eigen’s sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils.

Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying “a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism” is equivalent to saying “if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity.” Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful.

I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory.

Now consider the following exchange:

Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.

eigenstate: so what?

Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’

Comments
Carpathian: I’ve already gone over this with Mung and code didn’t help. Haha. Funny. Your first attempt at code didn't even have an implementation of your fitness function. Remember? So it was impossible to test. So when I pointed that out you wrote the function. So yes, code helped. It helped us see what you were missing from your model. And then your fitness function helped us see some other problems and exposed the fact that you were mistaken that the modules didn't need to know anything about each other or about the target. So yes, the code helped a great deal. You cannot code a program that does what you assert. And you make unwarranted assumptions about whether people can understand the code you write. If you permit the target to be entered on the command line, how will your code know how long to make the candidate solutions? Or what character set to use? If your code does not create candidate solutions of the correct length, how will it find the target? Talk less. Code more. :)Mung
May 10, 2015
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mike1962: You have a nice day too mike1962.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Mung:
Mung: I would like to see Carpathian code this wonderful weasel that can find any target. Carpathian: Wonderful Weasel cannot find any target anymore than a chicken egg could contain any bird species.
I've answered this the last time you brought it up. It will find any ASCII string. It cannot find any scalar or floating point arrays, etc.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: Where is the contradiction? HERE Carpathian: The designer of the program included all components of Weasel into one program but nothing stops someone from removing the target string and passing it as a parameter from a console or a client on the web. Mung: I would like to see Carpathian code this wonderful weasel that can find any target. Carpathian: Wonderful Weasel cannot find any target anymore than a chicken egg could contain any bird species.Mung
May 10, 2015
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mike1962:
Are you drunk? Sure, you could modify Weasel so that it accepts a new target between mutations, you could modify it any way you like, but if you did, it is no longer Weasel. You have changed the nature of the algorithm. Why do keep trying to change the subject?
If that's the only objection you have, that I shouldn't call it Weasel, I'm agreeable to that. We'll call the program Carp and it will allow students to use it as I've described. Carp will allow students to select targets between mutations thus allowing a final string that may have no relation to the initial target just as evolution describes. This would be a better demonstration of variation/selection than the original Weasel.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian, Well, you just have a nice day, OK?mike1962
May 10, 2015
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Barry:
One of these is that, in each generation of selective ‘breeding’, the mutant ‘progeny’ phrases were judged according to the criterion of resemblance to a DISTANT IDEAL target . . . Life isn’t like that.
I agree 100%. That's why I want multiple students selecting each generation. That means the "final" string is not some foreseen "target" string since each mutation can be selected according to new criteria.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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mike1962:
If the program can change the target string or the fitness function itself after the first invocation of the fitness function, it is not Weasel.
What a Weasel implementation does is what makes it a Weasel program. Where it gets its data has nothing to do with its functionality. If you don't understand this basic concept of programming, (called indirection), you don't understand enough to ask for code. You can prove me wrong by simply demonstrating that where a program gets its data has something to do with how it processes it. If a program is written that does what I say, how would it not validate my position? Lastly, are you saying that if Dawkin's original program had accepted an interactive input, none of your arguments against it would be valid?Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: Show me code that demonstrates why a Weasel implementation cannot accept a new target string between mutation passes.
Are you drunk? Sure, you could modify Weasel so that it accepts a new target between mutations, you could modify it any way you like, but if you did, it is no longer Weasel. You have changed the nature of the algorithm. Why do keep trying to change the subject?mike1962
May 10, 2015
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mike1962:
Carpathian: 4) After each mutation, display all the strings and have the students vote on the new parent.
mike1962: Now I’m convinced you have no idea how Weasel works.
One us definitely doesn't know. Show me code that demonstrates why a Weasel implementation cannot accept a new target string between mutation passes.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian,
Although the monkey/Shakespeare model is useful for explaining the distinction between single-step selection and cumulative selection, it is misleading in important ways. One of these is that, in each generation of selective ‘breeding’, the mutant ‘progeny’ phrases were judged according to the criterion of resemblance to a DISTANT IDEAL target . . . Life isn’t like that.
Guess who wrote that.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: int Weasel( char *Target, char *Pop[]); int WeaselPass( char *Target, char *Pop[], int NumPasses); If you can’t understand by looking at this why I am right about my position, no amount of code will help you understand it.
Bwahahaha.
I’ve already gone over this with Mung and code didn’t help.
I pity Mung. :D The comedy never stops on UD.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: A Weasel implementation does not need to know the target string before it can start running. You can even change strings between mutation passes.
If the program can change the target string or the fitness function itself after the first invocation of the fitness function, it is not Weasel.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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mike1962:
Weasel has to know the target string before it can start running. That’s how weasel works. METHINKS YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW WEASEL WORKS. But do go ahead and code whatever you’re trying to describe using Weasel as your base and let’s have a look at your code. Your description is incoherent.
A Weasel implementation does not need to know the target string before it can start running. You can even change strings between mutation passes. int Weasel( char *Target, char *Pop[]); int WeaselPass( char *Target, char *Pop[], int NumPasses); If you can't understand by looking at this why I am right about my position, no amount of code will help you understand it. I've already gone over this with Mung and code didn't help.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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mike1962: Weasel has to know the target string before it can start running. That’s how weasel works Zachriel: That is incorrect.
No it isn't.
You could have a phrase in your own mind. As long as you return the fitness function, Weasel would converge on the phrase much faster than random guessing.
Oh, so now I act as the fitness function in real-time? That's not Weasel. Why are you changing the subject attempting to obfuscate? At any rate, your tweak obfuscation changes nothing. In your variant, the fitness function and the target string are still in the same domain, my mind. Either way the string would have to be fixed before the first invocation of the fitness function, wherever it is, otherwise you have changed the nature of the algorithm.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: Let’s put that to a test. 1) Predict what the [Weasel] goal string will be and put it into an envelope. 2) Write your initial target string with up to 50% of the characters in the goal string you put in the envelope. 3)Have a class full of students start a command-line Weasel with your initial string. 4)After each mutation, display all the strings and have the students vote on the new parent. 6) Compare your results whenever the students say they’re done. Who here believes that the final string will match the string in the envelope.
Now I'm convinced you have no idea how Weasel works.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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mike1962: Weasel has to know the target string before it can start running. That’s how weasel works. That is incorrect. You could have a phrase in your own mind. As long as you return the fitness function, Weasel would converge on the phrase much faster than random guessing.Zachriel
May 10, 2015
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Querius: Apparently primitive is applied to organisms that pre-dated contemporary organisms because they were more primitive than contemporary organisms because they pre-dated contemporary organisms . . .” Primitive, relating to, denoting, or preserving the character of an early stage in the evolutionary or historical development of something; closely approximating an early ancestral type.Zachriel
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: By replacing the target English string with a string representing DNA code, the Weasel output could be directly used for GMO engineering... Without knowing what the string contains, farmers could simply reply with the product number of the code of the seeds that in their opinion was most commercially viable.
Product number of the code of the seeds?
The DNA information of this product code would be used as the new parent and the process repeated. In this case,neither the farmer nor Weasel would know what the target string was and yet the crops from that process would change into something the farmer could market.
Weasel has to know the target string before it can start running. That's how weasel works. METHINKS YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW WEASEL WORKS. But do go ahead and code whatever you're trying to describe using Weasel as your base and let's have a look at your code. Your description is incoherent.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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Box: Again, the fact that resources are limited is just a fact that co-defines NS. That's right. Natural selection is an inevitable part of the process. Box: Only if evolutionary algorithms add information to the evolutionary search can a blind search be improved upon. That's false, and shows you haven't really thought about it. Given appropriate landscapes, evolutionary search is much faster than a random search or a random walk. For example, for a simple hill, a random walk or random sampling will take a long time to climb the hill, while a hill-climbing algorithm will go straight to the top. Box: Natural selection is like this guy with a beret who cannot paint and carries dynamite around instead of a brush. Natural selection is the process which hones the search. It's the road not taken.Zachriel
May 10, 2015
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Zachriel
Primitive does not mean not well adapted. Modern organisms are derived from primitive ancestors, for instance, humans evolved from a rodent-like mammal, which was well-adapted to its own environment.
Apparently primitive is applied to organisms that pre-dated contemporary organisms because they were more primitive than contemporary organisms because they pre-dated contemporary organisms . . ." And around the circle we go. There are no primitive organisms. -QQuerius
May 10, 2015
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Zachriel,
Box: NS did not produce the adaptation, nor did the interplay with variation.
Zach: If every organism that ever existed still existed, then we might imagine all manner of organisms hobbling around, some barely sustainable, some not even viable.
The primary evolutionary search is for viable organisms which are subsequently offered to natural selection (NS).
Zach: But that’s not the universe life finds itself in. Resources are necessarily limited.
This fact is an element that co-defines NS.
Zach: As organisms compete for resources, they become part of the environment itself.
These facts are elements that co-define NS.
Zach: The effect over historical periods is the observation of trends.
The trends we see are the ones that are ‘spared’ by NS—untouched by NS. The trends we don’t see are eliminated by NS or never existed. Either way, there is no observed trend with any causal relationship to NS—only the fact that some trends no longer exist has a causal relationship to NS.
Zach: The end result is gazelles, quick and graceful.
The gazelles slipped untouched through the net of NS. However this fortunate event didn’t add one single bit of information to the quick and graceful gazelles.
Box: All these original solutions are more ‘easily’ produced by variation unhampered by NS.
Zach: Resources are limited, and evolutionary algorithms only explore a tiny portion of possible solutions.
Again, the fact that resources are limited is just a fact that co-defines NS. Only if evolutionary algorithms add information to the evolutionary search can a blind search be improved upon. If this is the case then these ‘evolutionary algorithms’ are intelligently pre-programmed to evolve certain targets.
Zach: Selection is critical to the creative process.
Natural selection is the great saboteur of evolution. All it does is eliminate huge amounts of information.
Zach: The painter can paint a picture of a cat, a flower, or a house. The painter selects a house. The painter can paint his own house, a farmer’s house, or the mansion on the corner. The painter selects the farmer’s house. (…)
Natural selection is like this guy with a beret who cannot paint and carries dynamite around instead of a brush. All he can do is blowing things up. He is offered a picture of a cat, a flower, and a house. On a whim he blows up the picture of the cat and the picture of the flower. Next he is offered a picture of his own house, a farmer’s house, and the mansion on the corner. On a whim he blows up the picture of his own house and the picture of the mansion on the corner. (….) And so forth …. The picture that 'survives' is the one that he didn't blow up.
Zach: Creativity is all about selection.
That may be so, but the destruction of creativity and information—the killing of viable creatures—bares no relationship to creativity.Box
May 10, 2015
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Barry:
I take that back. Weasel does model a front-loaded ID form of evolution.
Let's put that to a test. 1) Predict what the goal string will be and put it into an envelope. 2) Write your initial target string with up to 50% of the characters in the goal string you put in the envelope. 3)Have a class full of students start a command-line Weasel with your initial string. 4)After each mutation, display all the strings and have the students vote on the new parent. 6) Compare your results whenever the students say they're done. Who here believes that the final string will match the string in the envelope.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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mike1962, By replacing the target English string with a string representing DNA code, the Weasel output could be directly used for GMO engineering. Without knowing what the string contains, farmers could simply reply with the product number of the code of the seeds that in their opinion was most commercially viable. The DNA information of this product code would be used as the new parent and the process repeated. In this case,neither the farmer nor Weasel would know what the target string was and yet the crops from that process would change into something the farmer could market.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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jw777 @ 171, Micro-organisms that reproduce by fission do not age. * Darwinists will assert that this is proof of evolution through natural selection. * Darwinists will also assert that ageing and death of other organisms is also proof of evolution through natural selection. They will not notice the contradiction because everything they observe gets filtered through their world view and they are completely unwilling or incapable of grasping any other. -QQuerius
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian, Weasel does not model any sort of evolution (as Dawkins freely admits), because it is front-loaded to conform to a distant goal where the intermediate steps provide no advantage. I take that back. Weasel does model a front-loaded ID form of evolution.Barry Arrington
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: Weasel does not model all of evolution as that would require a modelling of all forms of mutation and all selection pressures.
The "problem" with Weasel with respect to modelling "evolution" is that it has a search target, and the fitness function is biased in such a way that it guarantees that the target will be hit within a relatively small number of iterations. Dawkins himself called this "a bit of a cheat." It's not a bit of a cheat, it's a fundamental cheat, if one is trying to demonstrate Darwinian evolution. Of course, Dawkins was not attempting demonstrate Darwinian evolution, only cumulative selection. Whoopdie doo. But if you look on Youtube comments, you'll see all kinds of dunderheaded comments to the effect that this "demonstrates evolution." Problem is, it's the wrong kind of evolution, and a lot of people get the wrong idea when they see it. While Weasel does demonstrate cumulative selection, Weasel models a rudimentary intelligent design evolution not Darwinian evolution.mike1962
May 10, 2015
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Mung:
Carpathian: A Weasel program that accepts a command-line target has no information about the target. Mung: And now you’re contradicting yourself.
Here's the whole quote:
Carpathian: A Weasel program that accepts a command-line target has no information about the target. This is because a program must be compiled before it can run but the target string is provided when the the program is run, which is after the program is designed.
Where is the contradiction?Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Barry, Weasel does not model all of evolution as that would require a modelling of all forms of mutation and all selection pressures. This would be a huge undertaking. That does not mean that a simple Weasel program cannot model simple variation and selection to allow us to see the difference between purely random "selection" of mutations versus some degree of "guidance" from the environment the software is simulating. The point is that a "run-time" Weasel program has no knowledge of the targets it is looking for. By having a group of people select mutations, we can demonstrate that "selection" responds to changes in the "environment" The "environment" is simply a label for the mechanism that rejects some members of the population and not others. The "target string" does necessarily have to be an English string, as it could easily be a million char sequence of a type like "GGGAAACCC". The "environment" need not be students but rather farmers planting GMO crops.Carpathian
May 10, 2015
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Carpathian: A Weasel program that accepts a command-line target has no information about the target. And now you're contradicting yourself.Mung
May 10, 2015
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