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Berlinski’s Question Remains Unanswered

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In a recent post I asked the following question.

I have a question for non-ID proponents only and it is very simple: Is there even one tenet of modern evolutionary theory that is universally agreed upon by the proponents of modern evolutionary theory?

Then I waited for the answers to come in. I was not disappointed, and I would like to express a hearty “thank you” to the proponents of modern evolutionary theory who participated in the exercise.

I have gone through the comments, and the proponents have nominated the following list as tenets on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree:

1. Common descent

2. Modern organisms descend from very ancient ones.

3. The differences among related lineages have accumulated over many generations of change.

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

5. The relative success of those heritable traits is the basis of evolutionary change.

6. Selection is an important evolution force.

7. Populations connected by gene flow evolve together absent very strong selection pull each population in different directions.

8. Selection is important (I am not sure how this is different from 6).

9. Drift exists.

10. Allopatric speciation is possible.

11. Most speciation processes fit somewhere between the extremes of sympatric speciation and allopatric speciation.

12. All of modern life shares common ancestry, HGT and orphan genes notwithstanding.

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

14. A parallel process of concentration/dilution of such variant alleles occurs (concentration of one is inevitably dilution of the other), by both sample error (drift) and systematic bias (selection).

15. Only frequency-dependent selection can oppose the progress of such an allele through to the fixation of one variant and elimination of the other. This is rare, so origin-fixation is the norm, long-term. [Later withdrawn]

16. Iterated occurrences of such fixations inevitably change lineages.

17. Isolated gene pools diverge.

18. Species differences are fundamentally due to the tendency of this divergence to proceed beyond the point of interfertility (isolation through prezygotic and postzygotic mechanisms).

19. Higher taxa result from ongoing divergences of historic species.

20. Transition-transversion biases in substitution are due to a biochemical tendency increasing yields of one product over the other.

21. Codon position biases occur and are due to the relative effects of selection and drift on synonymous vs nonsynonymous sites.

OK then. Let’s take a look at this list. They seem to fall into the following five categories.

Category 1: Who doesn’t believe that?

Pretty much everyone on the planet would agree with the following proposition: Animals and plants are different now than they were in the past. Thus, the proposition – while at some trivial level a tenant of modern evolutionary theory – is not that which sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power. Even young earth creationists believe it. Therefore, these propositions cannot be the basis for any claim that the theory (as opposed to some other theory) is true. From the above list the following fall into this category: 1, 2, 3, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 and 21.

Category 2: Trivial

4. The basis of (some of) the differences among individuals is heritable.

Yes, all evolution proponents agree that genetics exists.

Category 3. It is simply not true that all evolution proponents believe it

It is simply not true, for example, that all evolution proponents believe that natural selection plays more than a non-trivial role in the process. It is also not true that all proponents believe sympatric speciation occurs. 5, 8 and 11 fall into this category. See here and here.

Category 4. I Don’t know what claim is being made

13. The following mechanisms of genetic change cause change in lineages, with a bias against reversal:
Mutation (point, indel, duplication and rearrangement)
Gene Conversion
Recombination (several mechanisms including HGT)

Is the proponent of this claim stating that genetic change and only genetic change causes change in a lineage? If so, it is clearly not the case that all proponents of the theory agree with this; indeed most of them would dispute it. Is the proponent claiming merely that genetics change occurs and somehow that gets fixed in a species? If that is the case, it would fall under category 1.

Catategory 5. Withdrawn: claim 15.

CONCLUSIONS

My suspicions have been confirmed. Proponents of modern evolutionary theory all agree on a set of propositions that even most fervent young earth creationist would also agree on. And nothing more as far as I can tell.

What I was really trying to get at was this: Is there any “core” proposition on which all proponents of modern evolutionary theory agree. By “core” proposition, I do not mean basic facts of biology that pretty much everyone from YECs to Richard Dawkins agrees are true. I mean a proposition upon which the theory stands or falls, and, as I said above, sets it apart from other theories and accounts for its unique purported explanatory power

I have in mind a proposition that would answer David Berlinski’s famous question:

I disagree [with Paul R. Gross’ assertion] that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Disagree? I regard the claim as preposterous. Quantum electrodynamics is accurate to thirteen or so decimal places; so, too, general relativity. A leaf trembling in the wrong way would suffice to shatter either theory. What can Darwinian theory offer in comparison?

Indeed. What does modern evolutionary theory offer in comparison? How can the theory ever hope to be as “solid as any explanation in science” when its proponents cannot seem to agree on a single tenet, the falsification of which would, in Berlinski’s words, shatter the theory?

UPDATE:

In the comments eigenstate pulls Haldane’s famous “rabbit in the Cambrian” out of his hat. I will address that here:

Everyone knows there are no rabbit fossils in the strata that have been labeled “Cambrian.” First, eigen’s sputtering to the contrary notwithstanding, the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils.

Set that aside for the moment and consider this. The fact that there are no rabbit fossils in the Cambrian strata is a datum. It is a datum for evolutionary theory; it is a datum for young earth creationists; it is a datum for ID proponents. It is a fact on the ground in the same way that people are stuck to the earth with a force of 1G is a fact on the ground. Saying “a rabbit in a Cambrian stratum would destroy Darwinism” is equivalent to saying “if people start floating off into space it would destroy general relativity.” Well, people are not floating off into space and they are not about to. No rabbits have been found in the Cambrian strata and none ever will be. Haldane’s observation amounts to nothing more than “if the facts were different the theory to explain those facts would have to be different too.” It is trivially true and singularly unhelpful.

I take it that Berlinski’s point is very different. The mathematical models of quantum electrodynamics and general relativity make extremely precise predictions (13 decimal points). It follows that those theories have exposed themselves to an enormously high degree of “risk,” because if an observation were to vary from prediction by even an astronomically small degree it would falsify the theory.

Now consider the following exchange:

Barry: And yet unlike respectable scientific theories, there is not universal agreement on a single one of those details that sets [evolutionary] theory apart as an explanatory mechanism.

eigenstate: so what?

Well, here is what. Paul R. Gross’ asserted that Darwin’s theory is as “solid as any explanation in science.” Berlinski retorted that the assertion is preposterous. The point of the OP is that Berlinski is certainly correct. There is not even agreement among evolutionary theorists on what the model should be in the first place; far less has anyone developed a model that would make exquisitely precise predictions equivalent to those made by quantum electrodynamics and general relativity. Thank you eigenstate for confirming Berlinski’s point with your “so what.’

Comments
Carpathian #152, The Weasel program is an example of creating something new due to variation. Natural selection is of no help at all.Box
May 9, 2015
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Box:
Nope, there is nothing creative about NS and there is also nothing creative about the interplay between variation and selection. NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.
Using a command line Weasel program, a group of students could demonstrate how the interplay between variation and selection could create something new.Carpathian
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel #147,
Box: NS steps in and wipes out new viable life forms and doesn’t wipe out some—doesn’t touch some.
Zach: It tends to reduce those with lower fitness in favor of those with higher fitness. The population changes.
Not one single life form is the result of the alleged creative powers of Natural Selection (NS). NS just reduces the variety in ‘viable replicator space’. In no way shape or form does it create anything. It throws things out and leaves other things alone.
Zach: This can also result in cladogenesis.
There is no cladogenesis that would not have also taken place without NS being in operation. All life forms that roamed the earth (and many more) would also be here if NS was not in operation. Everything that took and takes place in life is because natural selection did not touch it.
Zach: It’s the interplay between variation and selection that constitutes the creative ‘force’.
Nope, there is nothing creative about NS and there is also nothing creative about the interplay between variation and selection. NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.
Joe: Except the interplay between variation and elimination has proven to be impotent as a creative ‘force’.
Elimination (nor its interplay with variation) is not a creative force—not even an impotent one.Box
May 9, 2015
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It's ID's problem because ID needs to insert large-scale changes which will have large-scale impact. Evolution doesn't have this problem because evolution makes small changes which have a small impact. ID also has to release populations all at once of new species while evolution simply mutates members of a population slowly.Carpathian
May 9, 2015
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This quote from me applies to rolling out an organism that is produced with ID, not evolution so this is an ID problem, not evolution’s.
It isn't ID's problem. Why isn't it evolutionism's problem?Joe
May 9, 2015
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It’s the interplay between variation and selection that constitutes the creative ‘force’.
Except the interplay between variation and elimination has proven to be impotent as a creative ‘force’.
the strength of the Theory of Evolution means we can state confidently that there never was an archetypal griffin, or centaur for that matter.
Liar.Joe
May 9, 2015
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logically_speaking: Except the experts in the field of paleontology who look closely at the protoceratops and say that it’s quite possibly the mythical griffin of old. Someone might suggest it was the inspiration for the griffin, but no paleontologist conflates the archetypical winged griffin for a protoceratops. Even if the origin of the centaur myth was ignorant people seeing horse-riders crossing the plain, that doesn't mean centaurs exist as actual creatures. Not only is there a lack of archetypal griffins, the strength of the Theory of Evolution means we can state confidently that there never was an archetypal griffin, or centaur for that matter. Box: NS steps in and wipes out new viable life forms and doesn’t wipe out some—doesn’t touch some. It tends to reduce those with lower fitness in favor of those with higher fitness. The population changes. This can also result in cladogenesis. Box: That doesn’t make NS any more creative … It's the interplay between variation and selection that constitutes the creative 'force'.Zachriel
May 9, 2015
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Querius:
In the far future, if a small blue planet remarkably like ours were seeded with an amazing spectrum of *human-designed* organisms that were left to adapt, migrate, or die, what would the result look like after millions of years, and how would that result differ from what we observe on our own small blue planet?
We could probably see something like we do now. If this was ID's position, I would have no problem at all with ID.
By “spectrum,” I mean that these human-designed species are incredibly numerous due to the fact that undergraduates in future terrestrial college classes frequently design new species under the supervision of a qualified professor and then observe and analyze the results.
This is the detail of ID I'd like to see someone explain. While the actual biological engineering of a simple single organism would be difficult, releasing it may be impossible once that ecosystem is populated by a large number of different species living in populations. My question is how do you insert a population of a new type of organism without having detailed knowledge of the future environment that would have incorporated these new organisms? How would these students recall a mistake? I'm also uncomfortable with the thought that students would risk real lives for their education.Carpathian
May 9, 2015
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Upright BiPed:
Carpathian: An error on roll out cannot be tolerated.
Upright BiPed:We are told (without end) that all one needs is a replicator with feedback. From that insignificant organization, the wizards of natural selection can then do all things. Yet, now we are told that the slightest imperfection burns the roux. good grief
This quote from me applies to rolling out an organism that is produced with ID, not evolution so this is an ID problem, not evolution's. If you have a mechanism for successfully releasing and recalling changes in an ID population could you please briefly explain it?Carpathian
May 9, 2015
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Bob O'H @ 138:
But if there are a lot of other strata without rabbits, then not having rabbits fossils is a poor diagnostic criterion. So anyone saying “this stratum doesn’t have rabbit fossils, therefore we’ll call it Cambrian” would be viewed as decidedly odd. So why, then would anyone using rabbit fossil absence as the primary reason for calling a stratum Cambrian?
Bob, you have misunderstood my statement. I said:
the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils
If you ignore context I suppose you can get to "Barry is saying that the primary criterion for determining whether a stratum is Cambrian is whether it has no rabbit fossils." But in the context of the discussion, it should have been clear that I meant that the whole reason any particular stratum would have been designated "Cambrian" in the first place is because the fossils in it are the type of fossils we have come to associate with the strata we call "Cambrian" and not other fossils, which other fossils would include rabbit fossils. The point, Bob, is that designating "rabbit fossil in the Cambrian" as a datum that would falsify Darwinism is disingenuous when "Cambrian stratum" is defined as a stratum that does not include fossils of that type.Barry Arrington
May 9, 2015
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Nice to see that Elizabeth Liddle ran away as opposed to producing a model and a theory for unguided evolution.Joe
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel #140,
Box: Natural selection (NS) is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.
Zach: You can keep repeating it, but doesn’t make it true. Assume a simplified case where the mutation rate is such that every mutation is tried once (not uncommon in large bacterial populations).
So, what we see is mutations creating new viable life forms—making headway filling up ‘viable replicator space’.
Zach: If there is an improvement in function in any of those mutations, then selection will tend to move the population in that direction.
NS steps in and wipes out new viable life forms and doesn’t wipe out some—doesn’t touch some.
Zach: Repeat.
That doesn’t make NS any more creative …
Zach:The only question, then, is whether the landscape is amenable to step-wise movement. If it is, then variation and selection will move the population towards increasing fitness;
All you get is a subset of viable life forms that happen to get around the restrictions imposed by NS. A subset that would also be there if NS was not operational—if 'replicators+mutation' was unhampered by NS.
Zach: much like a gas will fill every nook-and-cranny of a vacuum chamber, even though the movement of gas molecules is random.
If “viable replicator space” is a vacuum chamber, which gas (replicator+ mutation) 'wants' to fill, then NS is a pipe network in that vacuum chamber where the “gas” is forced into.
Zach: So, simply saying it can’t happen a priori is fallacious. It depends on the relationship of variation and the fitness landscape.
I don’t understand. What can’t happen? My point is that natural selection is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.Box
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel, "No one who takes even a close look would confuse the archetype of the griffin with a protoceratops". Except the experts in the field of paleontology who look closely at the protoceratops and say that it's quite possibly the mythical griffin of old. Thank goodness nobody takes your opinion seriously.logically_speaking
May 9, 2015
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Box: Lack of resources is simply part of NS. Drawing attention to lack of resources only underscores my point that NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force. You can keep repeating it, but doesn't make it true. Assume a simplified case where the mutation rate is such that every mutation is tried once (not uncommon in large bacterial populations). If there is an improvement in function in any of those mutations, then selection will tend to move the population in that direction. Repeat. The only question, then, is whether the landscape is amenable to step-wise movement. If it is, then variation and selection will move the population towards increasing fitness; much like a gas will fill every nook-and-cranny of a vacuum chamber, even though the movement of gas molecules is random. So, simply saying it can't happen a priori is fallacious. It depends on the relationship of variation and the fitness landscape.Zachriel
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel,
Box: NS only hampers evolution. (1) replicator –> (2) mutations –> (3) filling of “viable replicators space”.
Zach: There’s only so many resources. It’s competition for resources that determines which lineages will persist.
Lack of resources is simply part of NS. Drawing attention to lack of resources only underscores my point that NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.
Box: NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.
Zach: Again, it’s the interplay between variation and selection that represents the ‘force’ of adaptation.
There is not one animal form that can be explained by NS or by an interplay of variation and NS. All animal forms are explainable by mutation and the subsequent filing of 'viable replicators space'. The only thing NS does is exterminate a lot of creatures and not exterminate some creatures.Box
May 9, 2015
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Barry @ 89 - What you wrote in 29 was "the primary reason a stratum would be called “Cambrian” in the first place is because of the absence of rabbit fossils." But if there are a lot of other strata without rabbits, then not having rabbits fossils is a poor diagnostic criterion. So anyone saying "this stratum doesn't have rabbit fossils, therefore we'll call it Cambrian" would be viewed as decidedly odd. So why, then would anyone using rabbit fossil absence as the primary reason for calling a stratum Cambrian?Bob O'H
May 9, 2015
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Box: (3) filling of “viable replicators space”. There's only so many resources. It's competition for resources that determines which lineages will persist. Box: NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force. Again, it's the interplay between variation and selection that represents the 'force' of adaptation.Zachriel
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel,
Box: What unites all those theories of evolution is that natural selection (NS) is not a creative force.
Zachriel: The ‘force’ of adaptation is the interplay between variation and selection.
NS only hampers evolution. (1) replicator --> (2) mutations --> (3) filling of "viable replicators space". The role of NS is hampering step (3). In no way can this be described as a creative process. In fact the opposite is true: NS is a restrictive conservative anti-creative force.Box
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel: The Theory of Evolution is so strongly supported that we can be confident that rabbits never existed in the Cambrian. Nearly everyone on this thread knows it. Who on this thread thinks that Cambrian rabbits are a real possibility? Why or why not?Zachriel
May 9, 2015
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Mung: According to what principle? It's been known for decades that RNA acts as memory and enzyme, which, along with studies of mitochondria, led to the hypothesis of RNA World. More recent studies have shown RNA can catalyze its own replication, a confirmation of the hypothesis. See Robertson & Joyce, Highly Efficient Self-Replicating RNA Enzymes, Chemistry & Biology 2014. Mung: There is a lack of evidence of rabbits existing in the Cambrian. Not only is there a lack of rabbits in the Cambrian, the strength of the Theory of Evolution means we can state confidently that there never was a Cambrian rabbit. Box: What unites all those theories of evolution is that natural selection (NS) is not a creative force. The 'force' of adaptation is the interplay between variation and selection. logically_speaking: Ok so I don’t want to get into an off topic debate with you, but I am quite surprised that the only comment you make on this is that griffins have more limbs than protoceratops. It's a defining characteristic of griffins. No one who takes even a close look would confuse the archetype of the griffin with a protoceratops. It doesn't have wings. It has a skull plate. If you want to propose that the mythical griffin is a fanciful version of a fossil species of ornithischia, it's certainly possible! Maybe the myth of the centaur came about because ignorant people thought early horse-riders were single organisms. That doesn't make centaurs actual organisms. Protoceratops fits snugly within the nested hierarchy. Our conclusion, then, is that the combination of traits of lion and eagle are not consistent with what is expected from evolution, but consistent with human imagination (design). Not only is there a lack of archetypal griffins, the strength of the Theory of Evolution means we can state confidently that there never was an archetypal griffin, or centaur for that matter.Zachriel
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel, "logically_speaking: Hi Zachriel, here’s something for you to read So are you saying we might possibly find evidence of a griffin? The article discusses protoceratops, but protoceratops only had four limbs, while a griffin has six". Ok so I don't want to get into an off topic debate with you, but I am quite surprised that the only comment you make on this is that griffins have more limbs than protoceratops. Firstly I take it that when you say limbs you are including the supposed wings of the griffin. But of course the obvious answer for this supposed discrepancy is down to simple embelishment of the real creature in stories, you were the one to suggest that maybe they are "dimly remembered" after all. You ingore the fact that almost everything else matches, infact it's official cus they were in a museum, "Millions of years before humans arrived in the Gobi, the desert was home to strange animals that seemed to combine body parts of eagles and lions. But these animals weren't griffins; they were dinosaurs". http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/past-exhibitions/mythic-creatures/land-creatures-of-the-earth/griffin-bones So zachriel maybe you can answer your own question now; "Could griffins and centaurs be dimly remembered real-life organisms? Why or why would you not expect to find the remains of such a creature? If we found a griffin, what would that mean in terms of the theory of evolution"? Please tell us what it means in terms of the theory of evolution? Maybe you can pull a rabbit out of a precambian hat!logically_speaking
May 9, 2015
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What unites all those theories of evolution is that natural selection (NS) is not a creative force. NS throws stuff out. New things are not created by throwing old things out. NS is death, and death has never created anything new. NS kills off perfectly viable organisms on a whim. Without NS evolution would be much better off, it's simply a hindrance—a conservative anti-creative force.Box
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel:
The Theory of Evolution is so strongly supported that we can be confident that rabbits never existed in the Cambrian. Nearly everyone on this thread knows it
Now Zachriel's just lying. Again.Mung
May 9, 2015
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Elizabeth: Joe, I’m not sure whether you are seriously querying whether there is a theory of evolution or not. There is no "the theory of evolution." There are "theories of evolution." Zachriel, in a more lucid moment, recently admitted such. He seems to have forgotten, already. Modern evolutionary theory is a smorgasbord. It lacks what it most needs, which is a unifying coherence. Something that could rightly be called, The Theory of Evolution. Unless and until, we will continue to mock it. Elizabeth: Joe, I’m not sure whether you are seriously querying whether there is a theory of evolution or not. A theory of evolution just isn't going to cut it. No one but you knows which one of the many theories you're referring to. You people kill me, you really do. THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION: Those organisms which leave more offspring have more offspring in the following generation than those organisms which leave fewer offspring. That is not a theory. Sorry.Mung
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel: Because the vast majority of evidence against rabbits existing in the Cambrian, other possibilities would be strongly considered. You're confused. Again. There is a lack of evidence of rabbits existing in the Cambrian. Zachriel: Most scientists would probably be highly skeptical of such a finding as it would contradict “99.9999% of the evidence”. You're confused. Again. You cant' contradict 99.9999% of a lack of evidence. That's just silly. Zacriel: It would throw the entire theory of evolution into doubt. Your story changes daily. Doesn't that bother you?Mung
May 9, 2015
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Joe: There isn’t any such model you delusional loser. Elizabeth: Of course there is, Joe. It’s the one you keep saying there isn’t any evidence for. Joe: So either produce this model for unguided evolution or admit that you lack integrity and are as dishonest as they come. Wrong answer Joe. The correct response is to point out that they are conflating the model with what is being modeled.Mung
May 9, 2015
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Elizabeth Liddle:
The first step would have to be the same step as we do when we find any outlying datapoint: check that it is not an error
iow, look for more rabbits!Mung
May 9, 2015
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Zachriel: Individual molecules can self-replicate, at least in principle. According to what principle?Mung
May 9, 2015
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Carpathian, There seem to be a lot of frustrated people on this thread, and in some cases it might be due to misunderstanding what ID really is, how it's different than creationism, and what one of the many versions of the theory of evolution. Since Seversky mentioned science fiction, let's play a science fiction game. Do you like games? ;-) In the far future, if a small blue planet remarkably like ours were seeded with an amazing spectrum of *human-designed* organisms that were left to adapt, migrate, or die, what would the result look like after millions of years, and how would that result differ from what we observe on our own small blue planet? By “spectrum,” I mean that these human-designed species are incredibly numerous due to the fact that undergraduates in future terrestrial college classes frequently design new species under the supervision of a qualified professor and then observe and analyze the results. What would you expect to find on that planet? -QQuerius
May 8, 2015
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Reciprocating Bill @ 123 It reminds me of the beginning of one of the Stargate: SG-1 movies where the leading characters start winking out of existence one by one leaving only memories ....Seversky
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