Bob Marks Knocks it Out of the Park on AI

_{Barry Arrington

February 26, 2023

Intelligent Design}

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This is a great discussion about whether AI (1) is currently sentient and (2) can, in principle, be sentient. All three panelists agree that it not currently sentient. It is 2 to 1 on whether it can, in principle, be sentient. As you might expect, how the materialists reach their conclusion follows more from metaphysical commitments than evidence. Max and Melanie (the materialists) see no reason why, in principle, computers cannot in the future be conscious. Why not? they ask, we are all just material stuff. And if you agree with their metaphysical premises, that is an unanswerable question. Max, especially is committed to this view and thinks we should be more humble. He is so blinkered by his commitment to materialism that it does not seem to occur to him that there can be any possible reason to think machines cannot be conscious other than arrogance.

Bob is a dualist and reaches the opposite conclusion, and he gives some excellent reasons to question materialist premises. I commend this excellent discussion to you.

BTW, Bob Marks really knows his stuff, and he presents his arguments in a very winsome fashion. We should all follow his example.

Comments

... [Gerald Joyce] made a clear distinction between the type of templated RNA replication found in his experiments (which is based on the dynamic properties of RNA), versus the kind of replication that occurs in the living cell — that this, replication using the separate “replication machinery” of the aaRS, tRNA, ribosomes, etc. He stated
“It is difficult to see how one would devise autocatalytic networks that allow optimization of a replicative machinery that is distinct from the templating properties of the molecule.“
As I keep saying, given RNA World, the subsequent evolution of the system that exists now could have been gradual.Alan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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Origenes:
I’m only refuting your claim that an iPhone cannot be formed through natural processes, such as erosion, mineral deposition, and geological activity. In the case of an iPhone, the object’s appearance and complex structure could be due to chance and random arrangements of minerals. I freely admit there is as yet no fully detailed and complete explanation.
So Origenes is claiming iphones arose supernaturally? How odd?Alan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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BTW, Upright Biped, I'm a nobody in the field of OoL research and you have every right to ignore my assessment of your hypothesis. But in the 12 years or so since you began talking about it here, you have made absolutely no impression on any professional in the life sciences. Why don't you run it by someone with relevant credentials, such as Nick Lane. What's the point of the Ancient Mariner routine here?Alan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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I'm only refuting your claim that an iPhone cannot be formed through natural processes, such as erosion, mineral deposition, and geological activity. In the case of an iPhone, the object’s appearance and complex structure could be due to chance and random arrangements of minerals. I freely admit there is as yet no fully detailed and complete explanation.Origenes_{March 16, 2023
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UB, I'm only refuting your claim that an evolutionary origin for the genetic code is impossible. I freely admit there is as yet no fully detailed and complete explanationAlan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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. Alan, you fall from one branch only to hit the next. If Nick Lane (or anyone else) had given you anything useful to say, you would have said it. This should seem obvious. On the other hand, I can easily defend the key findings right out of the published record, even as you ignore it. “Each amino acid would combine chemically, at a special enzyme, a small molecule which, having a specific hydrogen-bonding surface, would combine specifically with the nucleic acid template. This combination would also supply the energy necessary for polymerization. In its simplest form there would be 20 different kinds of adaptor molecules, one for each amino acid, and 20 different enzymes to join the amino acids to their adaptors. Sydney Brenner, with whom I have discussed this idea, calls this the "adaptor hypothesis", since each amino acid is fitted with an adapter to go on to the template. The usual argument presented against this scheme is that no such small molecules have been found, but this objection cannot stand.” You know who wrote this? That is Francis Crick in early 1955 setting up the confirmation of John Von Neumann’s 1948 physical conditions for autonomous open-ended self-replication. He is describing a physical instantiation of the organization that Von Neumann had drawn from Alan Turing’s 1933 symbol machine. The confirmation would come in 1956-58 with the discovery of both complete sets of molecules. There is a video (linked above) from the early 2000’s, where Sydney Brenner emphatically acknowledges everything I just said. And as for your enthusiasm for RNA, you’ve been asked repeatedly to defend it:
I don’t think Alan ever told us which type of RNA replicator he sees as the magic bullet here. Is it the type that can freely assemble itself, base by base, from a pool of available parts? That’s certainly a persnickety version. So far that version hasn’t been shown to be robust enough to even copy the RNA script causing the reaction, much less specify a protein on the side. Or maybe what Alan has in mind is the self-replicating ribozyme? That’s another tough one. But what about the cross-catalytic ligase ribozyme, from Gerald Joyce’s team? That’s the six-piece version where they create four specific RNA substrates that become linked together based on two complimentary RNA templates. Template 1 links two substrates together to create Template 2, and Template 2 does the same with the other two substrates to create Template 1. One template is 66 bases long, if I remember correctly, and the other is 78. It’s a reaction that can go on forever as long as a steady supply of the four individual substrates are created and fed into the system at balanced levels. If it falls out of balance, the system runs into troubles. The upside for Alan is that there is a short patch of bases in each template that are outside the catalytic domain, and aren’t critical – i.e. they can be changed around. Perhaps this is where Alan sees an opportunity to specify some protein? Of course, the downside is that the reaction fails in the presence of protein or other biological materials. So there’s that. When Gerald Joyce published on this cross-catalytic ligase ribozyme, he talked about the potential of forming autocatalytic networks of these replicators in order to study various concepts in replication, and he made a clear distinction between the type of templated RNA replication found in his experiments (which is based on the dynamic properties of RNA), versus the kind of replication that occurs in the living cell — that this, replication using the separate “replication machinery” of the aaRS, tRNA, ribosomes, etc. He stated “It is difficult to see how one would devise autocatalytic networks that allow optimization of a replicative machinery that is distinct from the templating properties of the molecule.“ Perhaps Alan intends to share something Gerald Joyce is missing.
You declined. In fact you said “excellent reference UB” … “much food for thought” and then added “I have no explanation about life’s origin”. And so it goes.Upright BiPed_{March 16, 2023
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By the way, UB, where are going with your "semiotic hypothesis"? Is Nick Lane concerned? My feeling is that he (nor anyone else working in the field of OoL) is not.Alan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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Alan, you have been crystal clear from the very start.
Excellent.
Your undefended dismissal is the full extent of your argument.
I'm just pointing out that the dual rôle that RNA can play as both a replicator and catalyst destroys your claim that the DNA/RNA/protein relationship involving aminoacyl tRNA synthetases could not evolve. What else need I say?Alan Fox_{March 16, 2023
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.
UB, the simple fact is that your “semiotic hypothesis” fails to deliver.
Alan, you have been crystal clear from the very start. Your undefended dismissal is the full extent of your argument. Taking up such a position goes by various names, some of them quite colorful, but I think it is referred to as hand waving among proper company.Upright BiPed_{March 16, 2023
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Relatd, no the US has not conquered the world, though it is the leading maritime power thus shoulders the burden -- in key part unwillingly -- of guarding global trade routes. One of the lessons of the first half of C20 is that in an age of predatory powers and ideology the US cannot be a refuge of isolationism, a place to escape geostrategic contest and live in a self sufficient continent. The issue is to guard and defend cost effectively. FP, Remember, I am in the Caribbean, where several members of the Canadian banking cartel have operated for over a century. If you are unaware of the big six and their interlocking relationships, you are projecting your own gaps to others. Try, Royal and ScotiaBank, including share ownership. Toss in CIBC and go down the list to Bank of Toronto, National Bank of Canada and Bank of Montreal. (The first three are.were deeply involved in the Caribbean, the were part has to do with a partial withdrawal.) The US broke up the Bell System and has had a long running suit with IBM. A big six would have been a focus for major antitrust legal action. Go on down from there. Jerry, British colonisation of India was a tragedy in many respects, but India's relative poverty was more a matter of delayed industrialisation and sci tech transformation than a matter of being colonised. Do not overlook for example Ishapore as a centre for tech transfer. The point is, agriculture delivered a certain level, industrialisation broke the Malthusian mould and the oil age multiplied by global ICTs has opened up much more. But industrialisation has come in waves and is tied to cultural, government, governance, educational and broader worldviews patterns. india, post independence, lost decades due to flirtation with socialist ideologies. Contrast Japan, note what happened with China post Mao and more recently with India. This is similar in some ways to France's political upheavals from late C18 to the early C20 when she was ripe for picking by Germany, which tried the trick twice. General [attn AF and UB]: Notice, the side stepping of the implications of the article in Nature by a Nobel Laureate on code in the cell. See 297. This blows up the rhetorical gambit to pretend that noting on code in the cell is ill founded. UB yo AF is right:
your maneuvers reflect the actual status of your argument. The physical sciences have shown protein synthesis to be the encoded symbol system it was predicted to be, and encoded symbol systems remain a universal correlate of intelligence. Your blind enthusiasm for your point of view changes neither of these demonstrable facts … and suggesting that I haven’t faced the RNA proposition is as clear of a projection as anyone could make. It is you who refuses.
AF;s retort is a fallacy of dismissiveness toward abundant evidence:
the simple fact is that your “semiotic hypothesis” [--> codes are clearly, empirically established, and are integral to observed protein synthesis, implying a communication system, architecture and protocols as say Yockey summarised diagrammatically] fails to deliver.[--> blatant denialism] RNA can and does perform two rôles: that of replicator and that of catalyst. [--> RNA world is in fact the unobserved hypothesis that has failed to deliver observations on the code based protein synthesis system, the attempt to pretend that ribosomes are evidence fails due to the involvement of proteins in their structure and operation]
Accordingly, AF is to be identified as of negative credibility. KFkairosfocus_{March 15, 2023
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UB, the simple fact is that your "semiotic hypothesis" fails to deliver. RNA can and does perform two rôles: that of replicator and that of catalyst.Alan Fox_{March 14, 2023
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. Alan, you haven’t added anything, and we both know there is nothing for you to add. The physical properties of the system remain the same. The identification of protein synthesis as a system of symbols and constraints stands on the detailed history of experimental results, confirmed predictions, and unchallenged physical analysis. I have documented universal observation in my favor, whereas you begin with the promise of an unknown RNA organization that (even if it was known to exist) would be 100% physically incapable of specifying anything at all from encoded memory. You’ve been particularly enthusiastic about this fact, describing it as the key point of your proposition, which you did not want overlooked. When asked how your proposition specifies and replaces all the many components and the critical simultaneous coordination required for your own hypothesis to be successful, you took the stance that such details are unimportant to the conversation and simply added that you had no idea how these things came into being. And now you’ve characterize them as “irrelevant” in your point of view. Again, your maneuvers reflect the actual status of your argument. The physical sciences have shown protein synthesis to be the encoded symbol system it was predicted to be, and encoded symbol systems remain a universal correlate of intelligence. Your blind enthusiasm for your point of view changes neither of these demonstrable facts … and suggesting that I haven’t faced the RNA proposition is as clear of a projection as anyone could make. It is you who refuses.Upright BiPed_{March 14, 2023
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The US commitment to freedom is part of how the US Navy has taken the place of the RN as guardian of the sea lanes
I rememberer a song titled "Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XPHL4Q86t4 I am watching a Great Courses on England and India, called "A History of British India." England's interest in India lasted almost 200 years and at the time of England's entry into India it was the wealthiest empire in the World. We look at India and its current poverty but at one time it was richer than any other area in the world. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XPHL4Q86t4jerry_{March 14, 2023
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Kairosfocus writes:
The freedom in the US would not tolerate Canada’s big six banking cartel.
I have no idea what you are talking about. And I don’t think you do either. Any organization is free to establish a bank in Canada.Ford Prefect_{March 14, 2023
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Kf at 398, What freedom? The U.S. captured the world and refuses to let go. Under the Lend-Lease program, England got much needed help. It took until 2006 to pay it all back. Our temporary Allies, the Russians, had no desire to pay anything back. Your view is incomplete. In 1997, a think tank called the Project for a New American Century laid out the plan for continued American dominance in global affairs. Once power is acquired, it will not be let go. Here, I see the constant repetition that random events allowed for inorganic chemicals to spring to life. That also allowed random events to allow life to self-upgrade. That allow for random events in computer programs to turn into life. With NO evidence. Those who demand evidence will accept NO evidence when it suits them.relatd_{March 14, 2023
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FP, Jerry, Relatd, The freedom in the US would not tolerate Canada's big six banking cartel. That freedom feeds the enterpreneurial risk behind the post ww2 prosperity wave. Where, a 70 year global growth trend is compatible with the onward damaged economy of the UK after two ruinous wars. The US commitment to freedom is part of how the US Navy has taken the place of the RN as guardian of the sea lanes. That expenditure implies a burden on the US economy that others are able to ride on. And much, much more. But it remains the case that we see the fatal challenge of a credible mind to evolutionary materialistic scientism expressed here in the idea that an AI can become a self aware, free mind. Or that our minds, alternatively, are just software. Similarly, we have on the table in 297, Nature publishing a Nobel Laureate on the genetic code. KFkairosfocus_{March 14, 2023
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Jerry at 396, 100% wrong. Manipulating money is the problem. Convincing regulators to loosen controls is the other. Right now, the so-called Fake Money Industry - referred to as cryptocurrency - wants to move off-shore, out of the reach of anybody, so they can do what they want. Greed is the primary reason. The latest bank failure has resulted in some people saying one bank didn't warn them about potential problems, even though they clearly saw it coming. Greed has nothing to do with "modern." And one-line accounts of history are not actually history. "After WWII the prosperity came to much of the world." Really? In England, rationing continued into the 1950s.relatd_{March 14, 2023
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bank failures
There was a book about 10 years ago called “Fragile by Design” that discussed US bank failures. Independence of banks was built in from the beginning which meant that when a bank experienced problems it had no associated banks to help it financially. Hence, a large number of bank failures. https://www.amazon.com/Fragile-Design-Political-Princeton-Economic/dp/0691155240 Whether that is good or bad, the US system derived from England and along with England have been the biggest drivers of technical and financial success in the world. The modern world owes its current progress to these two countries. Otherwise the world would look like 19th century Latin America. In Scandinavia they we’re eating the bark off of trees in the early 1800s to supplement their diets. In the 1800s the ideas that led to these two countries success spread to Europe. Canada came along for the ride. After WWII the prosperity came to much of the world. See Hans Rosling’s Gapminder data. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbkSRLYSojo&t=263s Most people live in a goldfish bowl not knowing how or why the bowl got there. They just assume it’s normal. Aside: in the US it’s all politics as conservative news sites are talking about bank failures while Biden is touting his economic miracle.jerry_{March 14, 2023
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Kairosfocus writes:
FP, I stand by my remark…
You are certainly free to stand by a remark that has nothing to do with the comment you are responding to, but I really don’t see the point in doing so.Ford Prefect_{March 14, 2023
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FP, I stand by my remark and refocus, especially given the state of news and commentary. Many critiques of the US miss the key point that often the heavy lifting by the US enables them to do other things, starting with the common defence. On finance and economic policy/regulation (banking is a heavily regulated industry), there are more than enough resources in the US to frame balanced policies, but there is a clear problem of agendas. Meanwhile, the main issues for this thread stand as noted. KFkairosfocus_{March 14, 2023
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Kairosfocus writes:
FP, consider whether Canada can be Canada [ditto for Europe etc] because its next door neighbour, warts and all, is doing the heavy lifting.
What does this have to do with the disproportionately high rate of bank failures in the US as compared to Canada?
Meanwhile, the banking failure is an emerging story in an age of low credibility media and with too many low integrity public officials, one would be well advised to wait for the story to become clear.
Bank failures in the US is not a new phenomenon. There have been 3500 bank failures in the US since 1930 but only two in Canada. The difference in population size can’t explain this. Banking in both countries is in the private sector. Again, can the US learn something from Canada on this?Ford Prefect_{March 14, 2023
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FP, consider whether Canada can be Canada [ditto for Europe etc] because its next door neighbour, warts and all, is doing the heavy lifting. Meanwhile, the banking failure is an emerging story in an age of low credibility media and with too many low integrity public officials, one would be well advised to wait for the story to become clear. Back to focal issues, KF PS, Focal issue 1:
Max and Melanie (the materialists) see no reason why, in principle, computers cannot in the future be conscious. Why not? they ask, we are all just material stuff. And if you agree with their metaphysical premises, that is an unanswerable question. Max, especially is committed to this view and thinks we should be more humble. He is so blinkered by his commitment to materialism that it does not seem to occur to him that there can be any possible reason to think machines cannot be conscious other than arrogance. Bob is a dualist and reaches the opposite conclusion, and he gives some excellent reasons to question materialist premises
See how demonstrably self referentially incoherent views such as evolutionary materialistic scientism shape views? I would beg to note, that GIGO limited computation on a substrate is inherently dynamic-stochastic and has no independent rational, responsible freedom. In the case of ChatGPT, it is obvious that its responses are reflective of its coding, including lockouts on controversial topics and marginalised movements or ideas. PPS, emergent issue, by way of attempts to discredit UB, kindly see 297 above on a Nature article by a Nobel Laureate and expert on the genetic code: Life's code script.kairosfocus_{March 14, 2023
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Completely off topic, but I was wondering what people here thought about the recent US bank failures. Canada has had two bank failures in the last 100 years. The US has had 562 in the last twenty years. Can the US learn something from Canada?Ford Prefect_{March 13, 2023
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It’s a shame you only got that from it
There wasn't much to get. Interesting research but nothing of any great portent. If you feel otherwise, then layout your case.
The spontaneity of the ATP reaction under controlled conditions didn’t intrigue you
Why should it? If you believe it’s a big deal, explain why. I expect every reaction in the body could be produced with the right conditions.jerry_{March 13, 2023
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He is essentially saying that there is nothing so far but a couple of interesting reactions.
Well, I'm impressed you made it that far. It's a shame you only got that from it. The spontaneity of the ATP reaction under controlled conditions didn't intrigue you? Emergent properties and all that?Alan Fox_{March 13, 2023
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I watched Nick Lane’s video for 10 minutes at the time specified. He is essentially saying that there is nothing so far but a couple of interesting reactions. 17 years ago nearly everyone on UD expected there would be synthetic life in the near future. So this is no big deal even if he actually had something. This video is sort of like the Miller-Urey experiments many years updated. Good research but not much to see here. Does zero to counter ID. If Lane or his associates were able to create a prototype cell, ID would have no problem and endorse the research. ID is science+ jerry_{March 13, 2023
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Jerry, generally speaking, functionally specific, complex organisation exhibits fine tuning, i.e. parts have to match, be properly arranged, organised and coupled to work. So yes, phenomena observed on earth, in the sol system and the wider cosmos that exhibit fine tuning are at the core of the design inference. This includes, the physics of the cosmos. KFkairosfocus_{March 13, 2023
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CR, utterly irrelevant. The observed NC action of ribosomes etc in creating proteins is a matter of copious record. That this action effects coded alrorithms is further record, and these strongly point to language using intelligence as key cause. KFkairosfocus_{March 13, 2023
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AF, the bare assertion that things can change is itself an admission that you do not have adequate empirical observation that they did change as you hope or "imagine" and that they did so by the means you wish to impose. The context is one where the consensus on actual observation is, that there are codes and algorithms involved, which is already language, thus a strong sign of design, intelligently directed configuration. As a first sign that such design is possible observe the work of Venter et al, not to mention -- as you also ignored above -- the work where even the 16 GB contents of Wikipedia in English were encoded in DNA. The refusal to acknowledge the evidence of code, is itself another sign of what has been going on on your part. KFkairosfocus_{March 13, 2023
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@KF
A ribosome is an intercellular [sic] structure made of both RNA and protein, and it is the site of protein synthesis in the cell. The ribosome reads the messenger RNA (mRNA) sequence and translates that genetic code into a specified string of amino acids, which grow into long chains that fold to form proteins.
Implicitly, this is a claim that the above cannot be reformulated in constructor theoretic terms of possible construction tasks, impossible construction tasks and why. See above. So, by all means, feel free to make that claim explicit, then elaborate on it, in detail.critical rationalist_{March 13, 2023
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