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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
I truly miss the musings of Mr. Murray.AnimatedDust
April 29, 2016
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You're barking mad, mung. Your silly Expelled Syndrome fellow IDist 'timaeus' could post here at a moment's notice, if he had the will & courage. Do you doubt this? One thread had been 'afforded' me. That is already 'one more'.Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Gregory:
I have no posting privileges at UD, mung. How many do you expect?
I expect at least one more from you than you expect from Timaeus, who also has no posting privileges here at UD.Mung
October 1, 2013
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No, Axel, obviously not. You, who recently lied on the UD list about possessing/having completed a PhD and were called out to truth for it are in a rather bad position to comment. Truth seems to be a joke to 'Axel', just something to spin a phrase about from a translator's/editor's perspective. Please don't speak of licking boots, silly IDist. It does you discredit. timaeus already does enough of this with IDM leaders, especially Behe-the-Brave philosopher-midget. Unfortunately, we have not seen such bravery or healing growth from timaeus, at least, not yet. Do keep coming to timaeus' rescue from below, Axel; he needs all the Right-Wing IDist 'moral' support he can swallow (wherever he is, cuz it's a mystery!).Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Would you say that Jesus was an Expelled Syndrome sufferer, Gregory? The fatuousness of such an expression leaves me gobsmacked. You and your masters won't always be 'cock of the walk.' Now, go and lick their boots.Axel
October 1, 2013
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"Remind us again how many threads you’ve eXtended yourself to publish at UD?" Nice X! I have no posting privileges at UD, mung. How many do you expect?Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Gregory:
It is an absence of *WILL* and *EXTENSION* from timaeus. He has not extended himself to publish a single thread at UD
Remind us again how many threads you've eXtended yourself to publish at UD?Mung
October 1, 2013
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"Do I dare disturb the universe?" - T.S. Eliot Or just willingly shrink back to an Expelled Syndrome cave, still 6-10 years from retirement (based on a statement here at UD)? Remember charity.Gregory
October 1, 2013
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It is an absence of *WILL* from timaeus. Let’s be even clearer. It is an absence of *WILL* and *EXTENSION* from timaeus. He has not extended himself to publish a single thread at UD (and even ridiculously pretends he might not *have* posting privileges to do so). It would be ‘as easy as pie’ for timaeus to start threads at UD, but this Expelled Syndrome sufferer has not the strength or courage to make a pie or a post at his comfortably friendly and safe UD blog (let alone at a much more difficult scholarly venue, which timaeus surely couldn’t even imagine himself ever getting academically published in). But I’m sure it would be ‘tasty’ for IDists if ever he overcame his fears to actually make one. “Dare I disturb the universe?” People who don’t care about free will and choice of course will simply ignore this charge of apathy and self-depravity against timaeus, who is behaving like a typical two-bit reactionary crank instead of any kind of intellectual leader that IDists could be proud of. Other readers of UD’s blog should perhaps start to wonder why one of the few PhDs (in this case, in religious studies) at UD has *NEVER* made an OP of his own. Why is that? English teacher Dr. Torley in Japan is a champion of courage compared to ________ (anything personal disallowed) dr. timaeus! Taking a stab at Bejan’s non-IDist, mainstream lowercase ‘design in nature’ might be a first option post for timaues. But, friends and opponents, I have never seen timaeus demonstrate any courage that could correct or help to overcome his ideological Expelled Syndrome. Never. He is thus quite obviously caught 'in a web of his own making' and people should try to encourage him to escape from the vile clutches of the ideology he has swallowed unwittingly. I've been trying, but this is a very stubborn IDist, perhaps the most stubborn and backwards-looking at UD. Let us hope that timaeus will awaken from this ideological-health nightmare in which he dreams and find charity that he has never found before. Charity, come back to her.Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Snap your fingers, IDist Expelled Syndrome sufferer, and you will immediately have posting privileges at UD. I'm sure Barry would open his arms to have the rhetorical wizardry of 'timaeus' contributing posts. Barry is welcome to respond here about this, but it's not necessary. It is an absence of *WILL* from timaeus. The problem, folks, is that timaeus has nothing original to say and cannot actually defend IDT as IDM leaders mean it. He has his own ideology-infested, cult-of-personality cave-ridden version of IDT, which IDM leaders don't and still won't endorse. timaeus is not a 'revolutionary' as IDist leaders would require. That's just one example among several others that would be game-breakers for the IDM to adopt. Taking the lead in a thread, starting an OP is quite different than commenting in-reaction-to. And that's what timaeus has turned into, folks, a reactionary post-scholar who has no credibility outside of IDist-friendly locales.
"if Gregory promises always to answer all my questions and to respond fully to all my rebuttals if I become a columnist here" - timaeus
Your delusions of grandeur aside, timaeus (some of which we've spoken about privately), I've already reached this point by requesting a public recorded discussion with you outside of UD. Your 'promise' clause is already part of my regulations for discussions, so the duplication and desire to 'do it here at UD' is redundant. You, dr. timaeus, would also be required to answer all of my questions, instead of dodging as you have. Responding 'fully' is of course subjective. And from experience, I doubt timeaus could ever be satisfied, which is also part of his Expelled Syndrome condition. But timaeus has avoided far too many of my questions and challenges to IDism and has simply failed at giving a competent defense of IDism because he is defending timaean-IDT, rather than IDM-IDT. See for example in this thread #722, when timaeus chose *NOT* to engage the content of the challenge, but simply to play-the-victim as if he had been personally wronged (though he is probably the most person-less activist for IDism 'working' at IDist websites, even more than Mike Gene was) and that's what fellow UDers should focus on instead of the content:
"First, Gonzalez meant Uppercase ‘Design’ (i.e. by a Transcendent Designer) and not lowercase ‘design.’ That should be obvious. And he is indeed paying the price for this. Second, if Gonzalez wanted to promote Uppercase ‘Design’ as an explanation *IN* natural science he would be violating the parameters of the field he was working in. As such, he *should* be dismissed."
Recently I've been speaking with and reading top-level cosmologists who are just as 'believing' as Dr. Gonzalez, yet who have seen past the either/or dichotomy that he presents with his Design/design. These credible scholars realise that IDT poses a false dilemma. It is this dilemma that has seduced a former-academic like (the real person behind the UD name) 'timaeus' into dedicating his life's work to them, though it compromises his health and credibility. Obviously, timaeus and I hold quite different definitions of 'humble.' Read carefully his words; he speaks in superlatives and absolutes on behalf of 'ID people,' out of context far too often to be taken as 'humble.' And that's not a self-correction he is willing to admit and accept. He won't openly say he feels like a 'revolutionary,' but that is what he actually thinks regarding IDT...otherwise he wouldn't be driving himself into 'intellectual sickness' and marginality by defending it as he does. Humility, in the case of this thread, is linked to charity. And I reiterate the hope that IDists will eventually learn to humble themselves and be charitable to their sworn enemies, 'the Darwinists.' The aim is to find a higher level of discourse that is not reducible in their hearts to IDism uber alles, just as it is not compatable with universal evolutionism, if Abrahamic faith is required to shrink rather than to expand to meet the challenges of our current electronic-information era. timaeus would have you look backwards, while condescending (as 60 yr-olds sometimes like to do) most things contemporary and actual; I and many others (of the younger generation) would have you see the present with new emphasis and turn your visions forward. But that's not going to happen, since timaeus' Expelled Syndrome stops him from posting threads of his own will at UD. It's a scholar's disease that people shouldn't wish upon their children (in the growing rare case that they become academics).Gregory
October 1, 2013
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Gregory asked: "timaeus, do you have posting privileges at Uncommon Descent blog or not? Simple: Yes or No question." Simple: Yes or No answer: No. Would Gregory like me to *seek* posting privileges, so that he could enjoy my deathless prose in op-eds here? But what difference would it make? Since Gregory refuses to answer my polite and reasoned challenges when I'm a commenter, why should I think he'd behave any differently if I were a columnist? He would no doubt continue to back out of debate with me every time he started losing, as he's done here all along. However, if I'm wrong -- if Gregory promises always to answer all my questions and to respond fully to all my rebuttals if I become a columnist here -- I'll seek permission to become one. Otherwise, I'll remain a humble commenter.Timaeus
September 30, 2013
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So, it's turned to comedy hour with mung and timaeus? "You brought it up over at TSZ. I invited you to start an OP on it at TSZ." - mung I did that already over a year ago. Do you wish now to take back your belated 'invite'? "to face those “problems” right here on this site." - timaeus timaeus, do you have posting privileges at Uncommon Descent blog or not? Simple: Yes or No question. [We can expect silence from this Expelled Syndrome victim.] If you do, then start a new thread about Bejan's book and approach at UD. I'm not interested in answering every question, blame or claim you make in your isolated post-scholarly 'life' at UD, which is quite obviously not a credible 'publishing' venue, but a (ID-friendly popular) BLOG. Your sense of entitlement to be answered is so grotesque as to reach beyond humour. I really do wish you could heal from your sense of entitlement ailment and Expelled Syndrome. As it is, I could write several book-length texts about how timaeus has escaped direct answers to my questions and challenges over the past two-three years. Goody two-shoes with the wrong answers, sitting in a cul-de-sac. Indeed, I might write about it on my blog oneday, time permitting. But, folks, responding to frantic IDists isn't very conducive to actual improvements in the overall conversation. And it's become obvious to most serious organisations, academic departments, journals and global science commissions that IDism is *NOT* an ideology one should associate themselves with. Scientific martyr-wannabes could spend their time more wisely than to defend IDism. Abrahamic believers should avoid IDism and Expelled Syndrome like the plague, even if timaeus counsels otherwise. There is healing and a much better way forward in the post-Darwinian scientific landscape than *ANYTHING* the IDM has yet offered. As for 'stepping into a ring' with timaeus, that was obviously a naive joke. Well, he was invited to a level-playing field, but declined timidly. timaeus is comfortable here amongst his fellow IDists (and yes, folks, he is undoubtedly one of you even if he lies to himself that he is not part of a 'movement'!). But put him in a non-partisan atmosphere and his rhetoric defending IDism is easily exposed as fear of (exposure to) reality. He is sadly and unrepentantly, highly biased against 'theistic evolution' and the views of most Abrahamic believers who accept limited evolutionary theories. In this case, his religious studies training is proving damaging to more fruitful conversations. As for "intellectual stamina" - let's go for a serious run and then timaeus can talk to me about 'stamina' with his tongue hanging out. (That's realistic rap talk to a poser who couldn't cut it!) timaeus has forbidden me to speak to or about him as an actual ('real') person. He wants to be known simply as an IDist talking-head, one that obviously suffers from Expelled Syndrome. Do any of you wish to see him 'perform' for you in defense of IDT somewhere else? The big-talker and mocker would turn into a runt among men and women who have seen through the facade he is (perhaps still unwittingly, but willingly) representing. Let's see, will timaeus himself post an actual thread about Bejan's lowercase 'design in nature' approach at UD? Would anyone here like to risk the odds betting on that one?Gregory
September 30, 2013
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"He’s never lasted more than two or three." Well, to be perfectly honest, that's all he needs in order to get into the ring with me. =PMung
September 29, 2013
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Gregory wrote: "I wrote a post about Bejan’s book on my blog, which is enough for now. The topic is obviously too sensitive for IDists still, who are not prepared to directly face the problems Bejan’s approach causes ..." False. Gregory challenged us all to face those "problems" right here on this site. On the very thread on which he issued the challenge -- taunting us that we were afraid to respond to Bejan -- I responded to Bejan. Gregory was still present on the thread when my response was published. He chose not to reply. He therefore lost the debate by default. If you step out of the ring, you lose the match. Gregory has lost countless matches here. If he ever hopes to win one, he is going to have to develop the intellectual stamina to go fifteen rounds. He's never lasted more than two or three. In the case of Bejan, he lasted not even one.Timaeus
September 29, 2013
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Gregory:
What is spineless is deleting posts. You agree, don’t you mung?
I don't think I've ever seen a post of yours I thought ought to be deleted. I've made posts that ought to have been deleted, but I lacked the power to do so.
KF is now doing it at UD too, in defense of timaeus.
I have my doubts.
afaik, I am not ‘enabled’ to “create an OP” at UD. Just IDists are allowed to do that.
You brought it up over at TSZ. I invited you to start an OP on it at TSZ. You certainly are empowered to do so at TSZ. That's what I was referring to.Mung
September 28, 2013
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What is spineless is deleting posts. You agree, don't you mung? KF is now doing it at UD too, in defense of timaeus. Elisabeth Liddle at TSZ walks the high road compared to folks here at UD re: censorship/deleting posts w/out explanation. afaik, I am not 'enabled' to "create an OP" at UD. Just IDists are allowed to do that. timaeus, an IDist of the Expelled Syndrome variety, is (or should be) allowed to "create an OP on Bejan's book Design in Nature" (or anything else he wants) here at UD. Do you think he will? It obviously means nothing to ask someone who can't post why he or she doesn't. I wrote a post about Bejan's book on my blog, which is enough for now. The topic is obviously too sensitive for IDists still, who are not prepared to directly face the problems Bejan's approach causes for their narrow-broad, neutral-implicationist, un-theological, 'strictly [natural] scientific theory.' At least, they will not feature a thread about lowercase 'design in nature' because it would spell the end of Uppercase IDT's intentional facade. More charity from Right-Wing Conservatives in USAmerica for timaeus' groundless IDism at UD? Probably.Gregory
September 28, 2013
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Gregory, for some as yet unfathomable reason, declines to create an OP on Bejan's book Design in Nature. But he's not spineless, oh no. Go figure.Mung
September 27, 2013
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From the fact that we don’t presently have a good alternative to capitalism, it doesn’t follow that our descendent won’t come up with one.
Yes, anything is possible. Capitalism has may forms, some of which are negative, but not as negative as all forms of socialism. Some of the forms of capitalism are very positive but specific aspects are often suppressed by those in power when it affects them personally. Hence the terms, "crony capitalism"and "rent seeking", have arisen.
From the fact that we don’t presently have a good naturalistic evolution alternative to intelligent design, it doesn’t follow that our descendent won’t come up with one.
Anything is possible. I do not know which would come first, a valid theory of naturalistic evolution or a better system than free-market capitalism. My bet is that neither will arise but alternatives will continued to be imposed on the people by those in power. Sometimes, the people will even vote into existence an alternative that is dysfunctional for themselves.jerry
September 27, 2013
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No, he didn't put up his hand, 'a voice called out, 'Why, Sir?' It was on the parade ground not indoors.Axel
September 27, 2013
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KF, A number of SAS were captured in France and killed, pursuant to that order from Hitler. After the war, the SAS were assembled to be addressed by a senior staff officer. They were then told by him that they were no longer required by the British army, and the regiment was disbanded and they would be posted back to their former regiments. One of the SAS men put up his hand and asked, 'Why, Sir?' The officer replied: 'We don't like bandits in the British army!!!!' tee hee. Mind you, they didn't mind them in the British army while a handful of them could wreak more damage and loss on the enemy than a couple of field regiments. Anyway, the SAS regiment was soon to be re-established, but before all of this, they were given permission to go to France and wherever else necessary, to see to 'unfinished business', which they duly did. I mean they caught the SS characters responsible for carrying put Hitler's order, murdering their mates, and dealt with them in the same expeditious manner. I remember one was dragged out of a cellar! Incidentally, the reason why the Nazis didn't invade England by sea was that Hitler and his general staff feared the British navy.Axel
September 27, 2013
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jerry, Kantian Naturalist and Barb, Instead of Capitalism vs. Socialism It doesn't include the term 'charity,' but does speak to 'altruism.' And it includes Marx mainly, but also Darwin and Nietzsche. "there is no good replacement for capitalism" - jerry Is there any replacement for capital? Like, some things cannot be turned into 'capital'? Exploring the limits of capitalism is not such a difficult or treacherous activity. And neither is exploring the limits of evolutionism, creationism or IDism. But this is not something on most IDists' radars, including the IDM leadership at the DI. But what will come of this? In some circles, Marx is far more 'alive' than Darwin. Das Kapital has flourished in recent years (since the American-led financial crisis) and reading groups are re-assessing his critique of capitalism. China certainly won't accept the 'evolution of civilisation' model that Washington is still trying desperately to impose on the world. Charity for China? Charity for Russia? Charity for Abrahamic believers who accept limited evolutionary theory/ies in biology and other natural sciences?Gregory
September 27, 2013
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From the fact that we don't presently have a good alternative to capitalism, it doesn't follow that our descendent won't come up with one.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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Marx wrote thousands of page criticizing capitalism. He wrote almost nothing about what should replace it. That is because there is no good replacement for capitalism so it is hard to write about something that does not exist. So maybe that is why he does not have a lucid political theory. During Marx's life time, most of his criticisms were crumbling which he failed to acknowledge. Must have been an immense personal failure for him. But like most ideologies you cannot change the distorted views of the committed which is why some to disastrous consequences tried to implement Marx politically and economically. All the attacks on capitalism either distort what it is or use utopia as a comparison. That is, capitalism is compared to some idyllic system that cannot exist because of human nature. When any other system is compared to this idyllic system they pale in comparison to capitalism. Some forms of capitalism are much more effective than others. See my references to Baumol and Muller above. Interesting how off topic some OP's get.jerry
September 27, 2013
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In re: Barb @ 717: I wasn't denying the existence of social Darwinism -- I was denying that (1) the existence of social Darwinism is relevant to assessing contemporary evolutionary theory and, incidentally, that (2) Marx or Nietzsche were substantively and positively influenced by Darwin. More on (2): if Darwin's work were a major influence on Marx, then we would expect to see some important break between Marx's critique of political economy prior to Origin and after. This would put the break between the notes eventually published as Grundrisse and his Contribution to a Critique of Political Economy, which was basically a preview of Capital. I'm not aware of any such break. Are you? As for my claim that Marx doesn't give us a political theory, what I had in mind is that Marx doesn't tell us much (if anything) about what counts as a just or fair distribution of social and natural resources, the kind of constitution a state should have, the limits and powers that state should have, the proper functions assigned to different branches of government, etc. In fact Marx tells us almost nothing about what the ideal society will like once the capitalist mode of production has been overcome and the state has withered away. I have a lot of trouble calling that a political theory in any meaningful sense, despite the fact that there have been (and continue to be) Marxist political theorists. The Darwin-Hitler connection is too absurd to merit any refutation beyond what it has already received.Kantian Naturalist
September 27, 2013
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Just a note to add that I too wish that timaeus hadn't suffered how he has. It's a sad case, not just about his 'arguments'. In this thread, I agree with johnp, Deuce, Kantian Naturalist, Alan Fox, Mark Frank, Elizabeth Liddle and all others who champion charity. I was accused of being "a fellow traveller with evil and/or what Lenin called a useful idiot." What willful ignorance is displayed by some IDists is really remarkable. But Abrahamic believers need not be seduced by IDism and should defend themselves against 'strictly [natural] scientism,' even as IDT demonstrates it (Luskin, Meyer, Behe, et al.), under the blanket of merely being 'theology-friendly' by desire.Gregory
September 27, 2013
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Entitlement claims coming from timaeus? Hmm...let's see. "I’d like all my other questions answered, please." And that's just from a few posts ago. UD's blog drips bloody with entitlement claims from 'timaeus,' even if the sorry spineless fellow doesn't recognise it. timaeus is such a funny guy that he even claims to speak for others where he is not involved, e.g. in this case TSZ. In terms of "yielding a significant point," the bigger question is whether or not IDism a.k.a. IDT is on the right side of history. For a variety of reasons, all well documented and clearly stated, I don't think it is. And the significant Uppercase/lowercase distinction of ID/id shows why quite aptly. It is folks like 'timeaeus,' hidden behind their self-destructive ideological masks (in this case painted with pious symbols) while suffering from Expelled Syndrome, who cannot face reality. timaeus has a tendency to make it personal and then run and hide. Here's an example, speaking about "A competent and honest academic..." Now, can anyone answer: *is* timaeus a "competent and honest academic"? One would think he would be employed in a suitable academic position if that were true of him. Does anyone here know? Unfortunately, as with many Expelled Syndrome victims of IDist ideology, there are few among them who are "a competent and honest academic". That's a sociological fact (though I would argue that they do think they are being honest, which is part of the issue). But folks, timaeus WILL NOT openly show you this; he will not rise up to be an actual person, a human being with scars and stains and character history. He simply cannot allow for you to actually look behind his detached, 'neutral,' abstract sophistications into the real situation, to see the truth for what it is of a religious studies ex-scholar defending IDism. That would be too 'truthful' for UDers to see. Truth be told, I tried with timaeus, but he was too stubborn and not ready; he chose the blue pill instead of the red pill and still prefers his isolated Expelled Syndrome fabricated unreality. Sadly, that's still on him. But we can hope for healing and higher purpose, if timaeus will ever turn around from IDism. Will he?Gregory
September 27, 2013
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Timaeus:
How about a sociologist who has not, it seems, taken a course in an actual natural science subject (not history of science, not sociology of science, or “science for arts majors”) since high school, and maybe not even since *early* high school, boasting about having discussions about Einstein with “high level” European scholars (presumably sociologists like himself)?
Now that's just harsh, and unfair. Didn't he, after all, attend a summer session at the DI? And this before it turned into a C.S. Lewis course in apologetics.Mung
September 26, 2013
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Gregory: Quit blathering about my "sense of entitlement." It has nothing to do with any sense of entitlement. The fact is that you continually post statements on this site that are false. And when you are challenged on those statements -- and refuted, by polite, coherent, logical arguments -- you do not seem to have the ability to say: "I concede error here, and retract the statement." That is why everyone here keeps challenging you -- as everyone at the Skeptical Zone keeps challenging you, and everyone at the old ASA list kept challenging you, etc. The problem is not with "Timaeus", nor is it with "UD", nor is it with "ID" or with "The Discovery Institute's summer program in the social sciences." The problem is with the person who is incapable of ever yielding a significant point, and therefore always ends up in rancorous quarrels with people -- TE and ID and YEC and atheist alike -- instead of civilized debate. Various people here have shown, by careful reasoning from texts, that you are wrong about the Roman Catholic position on evolution, wrong about Bejan, wrong about Fuller, wrong about a number of scientific matters connected with evolution and ID, wrong about the meaning of many terms ("Darwinism" etc.), and wrong about a number of personal accusations (most recently, that I tried to block or inhibit the discussion of Human Extension). But when we do this, you respond either with strings of insulting or condescending remarks (and that is not simply my opinion, but the opinion of many people here), or else you simply refuse to answer. A competent and honest academic does not respond to arguments with insults or with silence. A competent and honest academic responds to arguments either with a refutation, or with the polite words: "I stand corrected, and withdraw my remark." As for your remark about chasing you around from thread to thread, it is plainly hypocritical. You jump in on many threads here where you were not previously involved, merely to stick in a jab at me. In any case, it is not "chasing you around" to demand (226 above) that you address my polite and carefully documented response to *a grossly false accusation that you made about my motives*. You should not make such public accusations if you are not willing either to defend them when they are contested, or retract them when they are proved wrong. Anyhow, I've had enough of "debating" with you. Virtually every debate anyone has with you quickly becomes personal (as a number of people over the Skeptical Zone have recently pointed out to you, not that it has led to any change in your behavior there, any more than here), and nothing is learned by anyone from our exchanges. So I'll abandon my attempts to reason with you. My rebuttals of your falsehoods are published here, and the reader can decide which of us is closer to the truth. Best wishes, Gregory.Timaeus
September 26, 2013
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Sorry, spineless timaeus, but I will not be baited into a pointless discussion with you. Your idiotic internet sense of entitlement demands will only reverberate in your Expelled Syndrome cave. Please quit chasing me around from thread to thread.Gregory
September 26, 2013
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Gregory wrote: "A western religious studies graduate critiquing natural scientists is mostly humour, with very little substance." How about a sociologist who has not, it seems, taken a course in an actual natural science subject (not history of science, not sociology of science, or "science for arts majors") since high school, and maybe not even since *early* high school, boasting about having discussions about Einstein with "high level" European scholars (presumably sociologists like himself)? Isn't that "mostly humour"? What could such people discuss about Einstein -- his sex life? Certainly not his physics. I've never claimed to be a scientist, but at least I went off to university on a science scholarship, and took university courses in the natural sciences. That's more than can be said for some sociologists, and for a good number of academics in all fields who intellectualize about "science" without being able to converse for five minutes about the relationship between atoms and molecules, or waves and particles, or nucleic acids and proteins. Or who claims to know that ID is bad science without having read (not skimmed, read straight through) any of the technical works of ID proponents. I await Gregory's reply to my critique of Bejan. And his reply to my refutation (226 above) of his utterly false charge that I tried to derail or obstruct intellectual conversation about Human Extension. I will take silence on his part as an admission that my critiques and refutations are valid and that he has lost the debate on the points in question.Timaeus
September 26, 2013
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