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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
WJM is "no longer interested in fair play." That's what this thread is about. When you get some 'spine,' timaeus, please let us know. So far, 'spineless' is pretty much the definition of you, who won't even show your actual face hidden behind an Expelled Syndrome excuse. Please get that through your thick head. A western religious studies graduate critiquing natural scientists is mostly humour, with very little substance. "yes, my post constitutes what I was made aware of by others." - Barb Like I said, you're welcome. A "thanks" from you would be appropriate. But IDists do not seem grateful for much, that is, unless it comes from within their cracked 'movement'. It would show that IDists are not simply beggars. "some of his colleagues simply did not like his endorsement of design and didn’t want anyone who would endorse design in their department, no matter how good his science was." - timaeus First, Gonzalez meant Uppercase 'Design' (i.e. by a Transcendent Designer) and not lowercase 'design.' That should be obvious. And he is indeed paying the price for this. Second, if Gonzalez wanted to promote Uppercase 'Design' as an explanation *IN* natural science he would be violating the parameters of the field he was working in. As such, he *should* be dismissed. The case obviously involved worldviews, but IDism, qua IDM leaders, is supposed to be 'strictly [natural] science.' The Gonzalez case aptly shows that IDism is not and cannot be a 'strictly [natural] science' topic. But spineless IDists won't acknowledge this. Spineless timeaus, a western religious studies scholar (who won't say anything about who he actually is), wants to try to protect the 'strictly [natural] scientificity' of IDT. He is delusional, folks. Welcome to the real world.Gregory
September 26, 2013
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Franklin: First of all, just as a point of general courtesy, perhaps you could learn to spell my name correctly. (And if your spelling is an example of how much attention you pay to detail, I wonder how closely you really studied the Gonzalez case.) Second, I'm not letting you off that easily. You hold a Ph.D. in one of the natural sciences? Which one? How well do you know Gonzalez's field? If it's not your field, how do you know what would be considered adequate performance in that field? I'd like all my other questions answered, please. And especially the last one: name me any case in the history of US higher education, in *any* scientific field, where someone with 60+ peer-reviewed publications, and *a higher citation index than any of the people voting on his tenure decision* was refused tenure. I actually followed the Gonzalez case quite closely. Anyone who followed it closely, and does not admit that Gonzalez's religious views were *a major factor* (I don't say the only factor, but a major factor) in causing him to lose tenure, is simply being intellectually dishonest. We have the quoted words of one of his departmental colleagues, who admitted that Gonzalez's ID views influenced his decision, and we have strong reason to believe he wasn't the only one so influenced; we have the pre-tenure-review smear campaign by atheist professor Hector Avalos and others. Where did the ISU President address these things in final statement on the case? It sounds to me very much as if you made your judgment on this case based not on a careful balancing of the evidence pro and con, but out of prejudice against scientists who believe that nature points to design. However, I'm not in the end concerned about your personal motives. What's clear is that you are incredibly naive about how universities work, because you take ad hoc justifications by the administration as the real reason why something was done. I remember when the Soviet Union offered its justification for the invasion of Afghanistan. The arguments were about as good as those of the President of ISU in the Gonzalez case. Finally, your remark about "spine" is offensive. Gonzalez, a good man and a good scientist, lost his job. You, who won't even state your academic qualifications to assess a tenure case in astrophysics, are justifying the loss of job, income, and dignity of a scientific colleague. And you won't answer the questions I've asked you. You are the one, it seems to me, who is spineless. In any case, I've got better things to do that to debate a case that is years old. I only jumped in because your set of questions was so obviously selective, partisan, and materially misleading about what actually happened at Iowa State. Your questions strive, by conscious omission, to suppress the evidence that Gonzalez was a very good researcher in his field and hence a superb candidate for tenure, and you deliberately avoid discussing the elephant in the room, i.e., the fact that some of his colleagues simply did not like his endorsement of design and didn't want anyone who would endorse design in their department, no matter how good his science was.Timaeus
September 26, 2013
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social Darwinism just mixes up the apples and the oranges
There is a lot of things wrong with this. There is no theory, movement or philosophy of "social Darwinism." It is a term that few if any heard till the 1930's long after Spencer was dead. It is used to refer to people and ideas that certain groups didn't like. As such the term is meaningless.
order to construct a flimsy pseudo-scientific legitimacy for unrestrained capitalism.
I have studied economics with a lot of emphasis on capitalism. And I have never heard of the term, "unrestrained capitalism". My guess it is an example of my point above where one tries to cast aspersion at something they do not like by using the term "social Darwinism" and associating it with something they personally do not like. If one wants to learn about capitalism, I suggest two books Good Capitalism, Bad Capitalism, and the Economics of Growth and Prosperity by William Baumol. http://www.amazon.com/Good-Capitalism-Economics-Growth-Prosperity/dp/0300158327 In it Baumol et al identify four types of capitalism: mercantile capitalism, oligarchic capitalism, big firm capitalism and entrpreneurial capitalism. and The Mind and the Market: Capitalism in Western Thought by Jerry Muller http://www.amazon.com/The-Mind-Market-Capitalism-Western/dp/0385721668/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380166260&sr=8-1&keywords=muller+capitalism Muller expands on his book in a Teaching Company Course on Capitalism. http://www.thegreatcourses.com/tgc/courses/course_detail.aspx?cid=5665jerry
September 25, 2013
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Gregory @ 718: I'm not sure I follow; yes, my post constitutes what I was made aware of by others. That's called life. I don't get to experience every facet of human life, and neither do you. But not all of my information comes from scientists and, I suspect, the same can be said for you. After all, we aren't taught by scientists throughout school, are we? My parents weren't scientists. We get information from a wide range of sources, Gregory, and the main thing is to be able to disseminate it and think critically about what's being told or said to us so that we can determine its truthfulness.Barb
September 25, 2013
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Barb #717 - You're welcome for that. None of this comes originally from you. Unfortunately, IDists are often ungrateful for what they learn from scientists, either theists or atheists. Barb shows her ideology in her posts. Perhaps Barb will pubically acknowledge that #717 constitutes largely what she was made aware of by others? Just to remind that I recently visit Auschwitz-Birkenau for the first time so any rhetorical spin by IDists is not welcome. USAmerican commentors who have not visited the 'sites' are usually insensitive to this topic.Gregory
September 25, 2013
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But, yes, timeaus, I do hold a Ph.D in one of the natural sciences and yes I am very familiar with the tenure process and what it takes to be successful.
Well, I know I'm convinced. Phinehas
September 25, 2013
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KN @ 705:
(1) “Social Darwinism” (e.g. Herbert Spencer, Clarence Darrow, H. L. Mencken) is the metaphorical extension of “Darwinism” to society — it is not logically entailed by “Darwinism” itself. And the contemporary versions of Darwinism, neo-Darwinism etc., are crystal-clear in showing why there’s no legitimate scientific basis to “social Darwinism” — social Darwinism just mixes up the apples and the oranges in order to construct a flimsy pseudo-scientific legitimacy for unrestrained capitalism.
By applying Darwin’s theory of evolution to social problems, one of the leading men of that movement—Herbert Spencer—coined the phrase, “the survival of the fittest.” They reckoned that those who won in the battle of the marketplace would get the spoils, and as for those who lost—well, only the fittest should survive, anyway! This sort of thinking led to some very unscrupulous business practices and the amassing of tremendous fortunes by the most aggressive. According to The World Book Encyclopedia, some believe that “people in society compete for survival and . . . superior individuals become powerful and wealthy.” This is social Darwinism. And it exists, whether you believe in it or not. A good percetage of the wealthy elite in the US (the fabled "1%") view the poor as just lazy people or spendthrifts. Yet, rural laborers, migrant workers, and others, despite being poorly paid, often work very hard to feed their families.
(2) Neither Marx nor Nietzsche were social Darwinists nor substantially influenced by Darwin. Marx’s critique of political economy was pretty much mature by the time he became aware of Darwin’s work in 1859. Nietzsche knew of Darwin through German translations of Spencer and through German neo-Kantians, and generally thought that Darwin was deeply mistaken (“One should not mistake Malthus for nature,” etc.)
Marx and Engels wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848, but that doesn't mean that Darwin's ideas didn't appeal to either of them. Karl Marx is said to have rejoiced at reading Darwin’s Origin of Species, which he described as giving “the death blow” to God. {Himmelfarb, Darwin and the Darwinian Revolution, p. 398.] He also said: “Darwin’s book is very important and serves me as a basis for the class struggle in history.” [J. D. Bernal, Marx and Science, 1952, p. 17.]
(3) Neither Marx nor Nietzsche has a political theory. Marx has a Kantian-Hegelian critique of economic theories, and that has ramifications for politics and for political theory. Nietzsche has a critique of “morality” that likewise has ramifications for politics and political theory. But to describe either of them as having a worked-out political theory is a serious mistake.
Marx's writings became the touchstone of socialist thinking and action. Marx taught that by means of class struggle, history progresses step-by-step; once the ideal political system has been found, history in that sense will end. This ideal system will resolve the problems of previous societies. Everyone will live in peace, freedom, and prosperity, with no need for governments or military forces. Yeah, that is a political theory, whether or not you wish to acknowledge it as such. And let's not forget what Darwin's theory did for totalitarianism: Darwin’s theory of evolution also helped erode belief in God and the Bible. Its effects upon world history should not be underestimated, as the book Europa zwischen den Kriegen (Europe Between the Wars) tells us. It calls Hitler a “genuine social Darwinist” who firmly believed that survival of the fittest is a law of nature. “His concept of war,” explains its author, Hermann Graml, was that it “was a completely normal form of national intercourse necessary for strengthening ones own people, and which the true statesman would repeatedly try to bring about himself.” Charles Darwin’s idea of evolution and natural selection was another significant factor in the rise of Fascism. The book The Columbia History of the World speaks about the “reawakening of Social Darwinism in the ideologies of the Fascists, expressed both by Mussolini and by Hitler.” The Encyclopedia of the Third Reich agrees with this appraisal, explaining that social Darwinism was “the ideology behind Hitler’s policy of genocide.” In harmony with the teachings of Darwinian evolution, “German ideologists argued that the modern state, instead of devoting its energy to protecting the weak, should reject its inferior population in favor of the strong, healthy elements.” They argued that war is normal in the struggle for survival of the fittest, that “victory goes to the strong, and the weak must be eliminated.”Barb
September 25, 2013
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Timeaus, FYI I already know the answer to the question(s) so it isn't of great import to me to have anyone answer them. Their purpose was to see if anyone here had the spine to address Gonzalez's performance while in the employ of ISU. That, is after all, what ISU was/is gong to base any tenure decision on for any candidate. That your guy, Gonzalez, crumped like others at ISU over the years should not promote him to martyred.franklin
September 25, 2013
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Timeaus:Re your list of questions regarding Gonzalez – First, please give us the sum total of your academic experience relative to hiring/firing issues.
So now we have to add Timeaus to the list of UDites that don't have the intellectual integrity to evaluate the Gonzalez case on its merits. Timeaus, I'm sure you realize that for a successful outcome in a tenure-track associate professorshipe, i.e., life-long job, is not likely if a individual is incapable of mentoring any graduate-level students through their degree program. Ain't going to happen and I would be shockingly surprised if you could point to any instance of this happening, i.e., no mentoring = tenure. I also think you know that the generation of funding for an individuals own original research (as well as partial salary and graduate student support, is paramount to a successful tenure candidate. I also think you know that performance during the probationary period is what is evaluated in tenure situations and that while whatever past contributions a person might have made to science it is what has been accomplished during the probationary period which triggers a granting of tenure or rejection. I know you know that the answers to the questions I posed are devastating to Gonzalez's case for tenure and that on any single point, among many, ISU would have been justified in letting Gonzalez go. That Gonzaez's career fizzled once he had to prove himself capable of operating in academia as an independent researcher is on one hand sad but on the other hand he has no one to blame but himself. I wonder, Timeaus, why you haven't insisted that anyone commenting on the Gonzalez tenure case answer your questions. I mean if they actually represent some important criteria to add credibility to the tesponder than I can't imagine why you would only single me out to answer them. The other thought is that you need to create some double-standard to hold someone too since your case is empty and void of substance. But, yes, timeaus, I do hold a Ph.D in one of the natural sciences and yes I am very familiar with the tenure process and what it takes to be successful.franklin
September 25, 2013
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mung: Do submit your communications with ISU to public scrutiny. Why should they remain your private communication
Why should I?franklin
September 25, 2013
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A perfect example of the question raised in the OP.Mung
September 24, 2013
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franklin:
Why would that necessarily follow from any communication with Iowa State?
You mean from any lack of communication. Call it an inference. Subject to falsification. Do submit your communications with ISU to public scrutiny. Why should they remain your private communication? Did you sign a non-disclosure agreement? Do they not exist?Mung
September 24, 2013
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Franklin (708): Re your list of questions regarding Gonzalez -- First, please give us the sum total of your academic experience relative to hiring/firing issues. Do you hold a Ph.D.? In what discipline is your Ph.D.? Have you ever held an academic job? Have you ever obtained tenure? Have you ever applied for tenure? What were the requirements for tenure when you obtained it? Have you ever served on a committee for the review of someone's tenure? Have you personal experience of the process in any of the natural sciences? Have you personal experience of the process in astronomy/physics? Have you personal knowledge of the process at Iowa State? Have you personal knowledge of the Gonzalez case at Iowa state? Were you a faculty member at Iowa State at the time of the events in questions? Did you play any role there, however small, in the Gonzalez affair? When you have answered all these questions, then maybe we will consider answering yours. It is the mark of a scientific and academic coward to strike at Gonzalez or anyone who has lost tenure from the shadows, defending the decision which cost a man his job without identifying who one is. So if you are a real scientist with a genuine concern for the integrity of the tenure process, and not just another atheist materialist jerk who reflexively takes the side against Gonzalez because Gonzalez is a scientist who believes in God, lay your cards on the table. Prove that you know something about tenure process and about the field of astrophysics in which Gonzalez works and about Gonzalez's contributions to that field. And prove it from your own knowledge, not by quoting pseudonymous partisans from Panda's Thumb. And while you are at it, give us a list of the number of astrophysicists (or of scientists or scholars from *any* field) in the entire history of the USA who had 68 published articles at the time of their tenure review, and a citation index higher than that of any member of their department, and did not get tenure.Timaeus
September 24, 2013
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No matter, KN (705), for your facts detract from the larger propaganda goals that, after all, keep the good flock in line behind Jesus. Barb and other UDiots require that statements be truthy before truthful. Again, for Jesus, who would surely approve.
I wouldn't put it that way at all. One could think that Marx and Nietzsche (and Darwin) were fundamentally wrong while still correctly understanding what they were saying. Many theologians, liberals and conservatives alike, have had a profound mastery of Marx and Nietzsche. For that matter -- and I say this based on generic considerations rather than first-hand acquaintance with their texts -- I have no reason to doubt that William Lane Craig has a decent grasp of Marx and Nietzsche, or that Dembski has a decent grasp of evolutionary theory. For that matter, I'm not even all that upset by "since I already know that I don't agree with them, I'm not going to take the time to investigate what they were actually saying." (There are all sorts of things I'm happily ignorant about because they don't matter to me!) What frustrates me is the attitude of, "I don't really understand _____, and I don't care about whether I understand it or not, but here's my opinion about it anyway!" It's an appalling lack of epistemic humility or intellectual integrity, and Internet culture seems to have made it worse.Kantian Naturalist
September 23, 2013
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No matter, KN (705), for your facts detract from the larger propaganda goals that, after all, keep the good flock in line behind Jesus. Barb and other UDiots require that statements be truthy before truthful. Again, for Jesus, who would surely approve.LarTanner
September 23, 2013
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onlookers it will be interesting to see if KF and his ilk are able to complete the following simple quiz: Gonzalez successfully mentored ___________ graduate students through their degree programs. Gonzalez obtained $__________ in funding to support original research and graduate students while at ISU and represents _______% of funding in the astronomy and physics department at ISU. Gonzalez was a first author on ___________ manuscripts published in refereed journals. Gonzalez second (or third, fourth ect) author on ___________ refereed published manuscripts while in his probationary period at ISU. Gonzalez secured ____________ telescope time during his tenure-track position at ISU and this represents __________percent of telescope time secured by his home department at ISU. failure to answer such simple questions relating to Gonzalez's performance while employed at ISU will highlight and underscore what really happened at ISU. Intellectual dishonesty will prevent any ID supporters from filling in any of the above statements which will speak volumes on the issue of Gonzalez;s performance at ISU and underline and highlight exactly why such poor performance was not granted tenure.franklin
September 23, 2013
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The faculty members pejoratively labeled intelligent design an “ansatz,” a term from mathematics which means something “not based on any underlying theory or principle.”
Either Mr Luskin or the faculty members tainted the term slightly. From Wikipedia: "In physics and mathematics, an ansatz is an educated guess that is verified later by its results. An ansatz is the establishment of the starting equation(s), the theorem(s), or the value(s) describing a mathematical or physical problem or solution. It can take into consideration boundary conditions. After an ansatz has been established (constituting nothing more than an assumption), the equations are solved for the general function of interest (constituting a confirmation of the assumption)." Put in those terms it sounds akin to a hypothesis.Jerad
September 23, 2013
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KF @ 702: Bah. That isn't evidence of a conspiracy, it's just people in power plotting in secret against ID supporters because of their beliefs. It certainly isn't evidence of a culture war!William J Murray
September 23, 2013
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Ever heard of social Darwinism? Marx and Nietszche both found Darwin’s work invaluable in formulating their political theories.
(1) "Social Darwinism" (e.g. Herbert Spencer, Clarence Darrow, H. L. Mencken) is the metaphorical extension of "Darwinism" to society -- it is not logically entailed by "Darwinism" itself. And the contemporary versions of Darwinism, neo-Darwinism etc., are crystal-clear in showing why there's no legitimate scientific basis to "social Darwinism" -- social Darwinism just mixes up the apples and the oranges in order to construct a flimsy pseudo-scientific legitimacy for unrestrained capitalism. (2) Neither Marx nor Nietzsche were social Darwinists nor substantially influenced by Darwin. Marx's critique of political economy was pretty much mature by the time he became aware of Darwin's work in 1859. Nietzsche knew of Darwin through German translations of Spencer and through German neo-Kantians, and generally thought that Darwin was deeply mistaken ("One should not mistake Malthus for nature," etc.) (3) Neither Marx nor Nietzsche has a political theory. Marx has a Kantian-Hegelian critique of economic theories, and that has ramifications for politics and for political theory. Nietzsche has a critique of "morality" that likewise has ramifications for politics and political theory. But to describe either of them as having a worked-out political theory is a serious mistake.Kantian Naturalist
September 23, 2013
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I have archived the first thread at TSZ that documents the slanders, and note that it has apparently metastasised. BTW, the Blog Owner here now has a copy, with a few highlights. These include a false accusation that design theory is not merely error but FRAUD, which went down without a peep of protest.
Nothing to do with me. I haven't even read the thread. None of those guys/gals are my 'buddies'. And I'm not responsible for helping you police all the blogs you find objectionable. Go complain to them.
Obviously, that is a “given,” a presumed fact — but as your and your ilk’s inability for a full year today to show on observational evidence that evo mat’s claimed dynamics can account for OOL and origin of body plans reveals, it remains the case that the only known empirically validated source of FSCO/I is design.
Good thing over 150 years of research and publications has already spelled out the case for universal common descent via unguided natural processes then eh?
Your enabling behaviour simply inadvertently underscores the point.
How can I enable things I'm not aware of or involved with? Just because you have an issue does not require me to help you deal with it. It's just a blog. One where people are expressing opinions. Sometimes emphatically I take it. Based on your interpretation some of the views might have been promoted in ways that I wouldn't choose. But, again, just as you do not feel obligated to explain or monitor every ID or Christian blog I do not feel any responsibility regarding TSZ. If you've got a problem with them it's your problem. Leave me out of it. If you can't be bothered to participate in the discussion at TSZ then why would you expect me to do so? Or to help you with the situation?Jerad
September 23, 2013
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Jerad: I have archived the first thread at TSZ that documents the slanders, and note that it has apparently metastasised. BTW, the Blog Owner here now has a copy, with a few highlights. These include a false accusation that design theory is not merely error but FRAUD, which went down without a peep of protest. Obviously, that is a "given," a presumed fact -- but as your and your ilk's inability for a full year today to show on observational evidence that evo mat's claimed dynamics can account for OOL and origin of body plans reveals, it remains the case that the only known empirically validated source of FSCO/I is design. So absent materialist a prioris imposed on science and science education, that would be the obvious conclusion on 60 years of evidence starting with DNA. That false accusation of fraud -- them's fighting words -- is in the comments, a little before KN tried to make a very gentle distancing I clipped above in this thread. The main issue is in the OP, which lays out a line of talking points pivoting on twisting the Wedge document into pretzels: false malicious accusations of totalitarian theocratic agenda and an equally false conflation of design theory with creationism. I know, when smears reinforce your prejudices, you are unlikely to see them as wrongful, but that's the pint isn't it Jerad. Thanks for letting us know your own bigotry. And it is easy to show the roots of the tactics used above through Alinsky and ilk and back to the Third Reich's propaganda masters. The connexions of people, attitudes and argumentation to AtBC etc are easy to show if you are willing to wade through such filth. Denials in the face of evident truth is a standard agit prop tactic. So the further attempts to turn about the matter and blame the target simply reveal themselves as another all too familiar tactic. And if you think this stuff is harmless, that tells me even more. Your enabling behaviour simply inadvertently underscores the point. KFkairosfocus
September 23, 2013
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F/N: What really went down at ISU in 2007: _____________ >> Design Was the Issue After All: ISU's official explanation in Gonzalez case exposed as a sham (Updated) Casey Luskin December 3, 2007 9:30 AM | Permalink Documents show Gonzalez was denied fair tenure process by hostile colleagues who plotted behind his back, suppressed evidence, and then misled the public. Click Here To See a PDF Version of this Document with Citations Included. Executive Summary. Internal e-mails and other documents obtained under the Iowa Open Records Act contradict public claims by Iowa State University (ISU) that denial of tenure to astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez was unrelated to his writing on the theory of intelligent design. According to these documents: Dr. Gonzalez was subjected to a secret campaign of vilification and ridicule by colleagues in the Department of Physics and Astronomy who explicitly wanted to get rid of him because of his intelligent design views, not his scholarship. Dr. Gonzalez's work and views on intelligent design were repeatedly attacked during department tenure deliberations. Dr. Gonzalez's colleagues plotted to evade the law by suppressing evidence that could be used against them in court to supply proof of a hostile work environment. One of Dr. Gonzalez's colleagues admitted to another faculty member that the Department of Physics and Astronomy had violated the principle of academic freedom "massively" when it came to Gonzalez, while other colleagues expressed qualms that their plotting against Gonzalez was unethical or dishonest. Dr. Gonzalez's department chair misled the public after the denial of tenure by insisting that "intelligent design was not a major or even a big factor in this decision"--even though he had privately told colleagues that Gonzalez's support for intelligent design alone "disqualifies him from serving as a science educator." In voting to reject tenure for Dr. Gonzalez, members of the Department of Physics and Astronomy all but ignored recommendations made by the majority of their own outside scientific reviewers, who thought Gonzalez clearly deserved tenure. The bottom line according to these documents is that Dr. Gonzalez's rights to academic freedom, free speech, and a fair tenure process were trampled on by colleagues who were driven by ideological zeal when they should have made an impartial evaluation of Gonzalez's notable accomplishments as a scientist. A. The Campaign to Vilify Dr. Gonzalez and Induce Him to Leave ISU. In private e-mails, Dr. Gonzalez's colleagues repeatedly expressed their prejudice towards Gonzalez's ID views by asserting that ID is "intellectually vacuous," "more than just vacuous," that "[e]mbalming is more of a science" than ID, and that Gonzalez should be lumped with "idiots" and "religious nutcases." They hoped that ID would experience "self destruction" and mocked Gonzalez's ID work, saying they would study it "[u]nder medication." Gonzalez's colleagues drafted--and nearly released--a petition against ID whose avowed purpose was "to discredit" Gonzalez, and "give Gonzalez a clear sign that his ID efforts will not be considered as science by the faculty." Department member Vladimir Kogan urged his colleagues to denounce ID publicly with the express purpose of pressuring Gonzalez to leave ISU without applying for tenure: "our open statement signed and put in a visible place will show to GG that this is not a friendly place for him to develop further his IDeas. He may look for a better place as a result." ISU Professor Bruce Harmon also expressed the hope that Gonzalez would leave "and solve us the potentially difficult issue." Harmon explicitly admitted that Gonzalez's views on intelligent design posed a significant obstacle to his getting tenure: "[Intelligent Design] is a topic that is simmering in my blood ... [Gonzalez] will be up for tenure next year, and if he keeps up, it might be a hard sell to the department (but may be not so difficult for his lawyers, who will certainly be retained by the Discovery Institute). ... [H]e is claiming ID is a proper branch of science, and so I think he opens it up in his tenure consideration. I would have thought an intelligent person would have at least kept quiet until after tenure. Then you can advocate blowing up the moon." B. The Use of Intelligent Design as a Negative Factor in Tenure Deliberations. Long before Dr. Gonzalez came up for tenure, his colleagues' intolerance had crossed legal and ethical boundaries. They clearly were prejudiced against ID and felt that the only way to save the department's reputation was to get rid of Gonzalez, or better yet, hope that Gonzalez would feel unwelcome and simply choose to leave ISU. This intolerance became even more manifest during tenure evaluations. In his department's report on his tenure evaluation, it was stated that Dr. Gonzalez's work on ID entailed "naive reasoning" and that "[p]erhaps the most problematic of Dr. Gonzalez's scholarly efforts has been his co-authorship of the book 'The Privileged Planet: How Our Place in the Cosmos is Designed for Discovery.'" The faculty members pejoratively labeled intelligent design an "ansatz," a term from mathematics which means something "not based on any underlying theory or principle." Faculty members admitted that they were concerned that Dr. Gonzalez's affiliation with the ID movement might help intelligent design and be "harmful to science in general": "[s]ome noted ... that his association with the intelligent design movement is harmful to his career, and by allowing the movement to include an otherwise respected scientist, it is harmful to science in general." C. The Effort to Evade the Law by Suppressing Evidence that Could Be Used in Court to Prove a Hostile Work Environment. Dr. Gonzalez's colleagues ultimately abandoned plans for a public anti-ID statement as part of an effort to evade the law by suppressing evidence that could be used in court to expose the hostile work environment they had created for Dr. Gonzalez. ISU astronomer Steve Kawaler, whose wife is a "former employment lawyer" and gave him legal advice on this matter, passed the advice on to his colleagues, explaining why the department must abandon the statement:
"I think it is a big mistake for anyone in our department to go on the record on this issue given the upcoming (next year) up or out decision regarding our most vocal for the use of ID to guide scientific inquiry. ... Yes it will get worse before it gets better. But circulating such a statement could accelerate the process and could easily play into the hands of your perceived adversaries. For example, it could be used to justify a legal claim of a hostile work environment. That could be ammunition in any appeal of a tenure decision."
After Kawaler warned of legal troubles, John Clem withdrew his support from the statement because he also wanted to hide from Gonzalez any evidence that would allow him to prove that he had been subjected to a hostile work environment:
"I had a conversation yesterday evening with my son Paul, who has had management training at Sandia. I told him about the current situation and the concerns about 'hostile work environments.' His opinion was that indeed lawyers might well be successful in convincing a jury of average Americans that publication of our statement was reasonable for creating a hostile work environment. ... As strong as my feelings are on this matter, I have come around to Steve Kawaler's point of view. I now feel that publication of such a statement might become the most important piece of evidence in a successful court case to guarantee tenure to the person whose scientific credibility we would be attempting to discredit ... As for the unfortunate publicity we are receiving and the embarrassment we feel as a department, I think the best policy is to just grin and bear it for the next couple of years."
After John Clem chose to back out of the statement, Joerg Schmalian wrote various ISU physicists and astronomers saying "I think we should nevertheless proceed." Schmalian understood that their conversations about abandoning the statement would be taken as precisely what they were: attempts to cover up the intolerance towards ID in the department: "They feared that "[i]n view of an upcoming tenure decision, secrecy in the department may equally be interpreted as prejudging the case." "If it becomes clear that there were efforts to write such a statement and that the statement was not made only to avoid the impression of a hostile environment, isn't this strong evidence for a secrecy in the department[?]" D. Private admissions that Dr. Gonzalez was denied academic freedom or otherwise mistreated. In a particularly damning e-mail, ISU Physicist John Hauptmann admitted to faculty member Hector Avalos that "principle [of freedom of inquiry] has been violated massively in the physics department" in its treatment of Dr. Gonzalez. Other faculty members privately expressed qualms at the unethical and dishonest way they were plotting against Dr. Gonzalez behind his back. Dr. Harmon stated to Kawaler that, "I don't think talking behind Guillermo's back is quite ethical." Bruce Harmon had similar concerns, stating that they should issue the statement because otherwise it would appear that they were doing exactly what they were doing: secretly scheming about how to attack the viewpoint of a department member who was under consideration for tenure. Harmon wrote:
"Do we do everything at secret meetings and the hope the Discovery Institute's Lawyers don't subpoena our records? If I were Gonzalez, I would prefer my colleagues were honest and forthright in their opinions, as he seems to be with his."
Note: In the original version of this document, this e-mail was mistakenly attributed to Paul Canfield rather than Bruce Harmon. Kogan also knew they were acting inappropriately, writing, "It is not nice to discuss all this behind his back." E. The Cover-Up: Department Chair Eli Rosenberg's Effort to Mislead the Public. After Dr. Gonzalez's denial of tenure, Dr. Eli Rosenberg, chair of the Department of Physics and Astronomy, publicly insisted that "intelligent design was not a major or even a big factor in this decision." The record clearly shows otherwise, especially when it comes to Dr. Rosenberg himself. Contrary to his later public statements, during the tenure process Dr. Rosenberg presented Dr. Gonzalez's beliefs about intelligent design as a clear-cut litmus test on whether he was qualified to be a science educator, stating:
"on numerous occasions, Dr. Gonzalez has stated that Intelligent Design is a scientific theory and someday would be taught in science classrooms. This is confirmed by his numerous postings on the Discovery Institute Web site. The problem here is that Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory. Its premise is beyond the realm of science. ... But it is incumbent on a science educator to clearly understand and be able to articulate what science is and what it is not. The fact that Dr. Gonzalez does not understand what constitutes both science and a scientific theory disqualifies him from serving as a science educator."
F. The Rejection of the Recommendations of the Outside Reviewers. Of the nine review letters by scientists outside ISU that gave recommendations regarding Dr. Gonzalez's final tenure decision, six strongly supported his tenure promotion and gave glowing endorsements of his reputation and academic achievements. (Even Dr. Gonzalez's tenure dossier admitted that "five of the external letter writers ... including senior scientists at prestigious institutions recommend his promotion" and that only "[t]hree do not." ) One reviewer observed that ISU's Department of Physics and Astronomy does not consider grants as a criterion for gaining tenure, and stated that "Dr. Gonzalez is eminently qualified for the promotion according to your guidelines of excellence in scholarship and exhibiting a potential for national distinction. In light of your criteria I would certainly recommend the promotion." ISU chose to ignore the advice of these senior scientists at prestigious institutions. >> ______________ In short, the partyline is evolutionary materialism, and Gonzalez was outside it. And it is obvious these folks skirted both ethics and the law to knife a decent and distinguished colleague -- more distinguished than most of them were -- in the back. And they set out on exactly the kind of smear campaign as we have noted to besmirch his reputation. And duly, our fellow traveller enablers parrot the party line talking points. A very familiar pattern. The thing is probably too entrenched in too many institutions to be easily reformed. My own comment is that Americans should take a leaf out of the book of the Catholic Centrists in Prussia in the 1870's. Get organised, get registered -- apathy is now collaboration -- and VOTE. Then, it will be time to defund materialist ideology by taking away money used to effectively establish the darwinist cult as a de facto state cult; money taken at compulsion by the taxing system. Probably, something inspired by the old GI bill at primary, secondary and tertiary level so the funding to institutions is linked only to ability to attract and hold students. Without regard to other than basic, non ideological criteria. Scare mongering by the politicised teachers unions notwithstanding. Some judges are going to need to be recalled too. But then, that's just a general observation on history. When Bismark woke up staring at a big Centrist bloc, he made compromises. I would be very cautious in making deals with agendas that have the sort of track record above. Aha, proof of theocratic conspiracy! I can already hear the cackling. Liars. Citizens rising up in their own defence and voting out those with a proven hostile track record is citizenship not conspiracy. Parents refusing to send their kids to toxic talking point indoctrination centres hiding under the label of education is sound parenting. Where, the rise of the broadband web and the tablet computer offers a potential education revolution. At minimun, parents should insist on the sort of supplemental studies that my neighbourhood Chinese used to have over by the benevolent society. And a good summer camp or two won't hurt. And if it is too late for that, the rot is too deep, the time has come to vote with the feet and the wallet. Why send children to indoctrination centres? Create an alternative education system, and if needs be an alternative economy. Starting with media. Simply refuse to pay for, read, buy or otherwise fund the secularist establishment's talking point noticeboards. And on the actual science, the fact is, straight inductive reasoning says that the design inference has a serious point. Lock out the a materialist prioris and that becomes obvious. So, onlookers, glance at the above, and see how the pattern of hostility and indoctrination has indeed poisoned people to the point where it is as nothing to slander a decent man who from childhood as a Cuban refugee set out to be an astronomer. Understand what we are up against and understand that sweet reason will not persuade committed, hostile ideologues such as we are confronting. We can only expose them, and build a base that sets a sounder footing for ordinary people. And with that base in hand it is indeed entirely appropriate to point out unwelcome facts such as this from Dawkins:
Nature is not cruel, only pitilessly indifferent. This lesson is one of the hardest for humans to learn. We cannot accept that things might be neither good nor evil, neither cruel nor kind, but simply callous: indifferent to all suffering, lacking all purpose . . . . The true utility function of life, that which is being maximized in the natural world, is DNA survival. But DNA is not floating free; it is locked up in living bodies, and it has to make the most of the levers of power at its disposal. Genetic sequences that find themselves in cheetah bodies maximize their survival by causing those bodies to kill gazelles. Sequences that find themselves in gazelle bodies increase their chance of survival by promoting opposite ends. But the same utility function-the survival of DNA-explains the “purpose” of both the cheetah [--> i.e. predator] and the gazelle [--> i.e. prey] . . . . In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but pitiless indifference . . . . DNA neither cares nor knows. DNA just is. And we dance to its music. [[ “God’s Utility Function,” Sci. Am. Aug 1995, pp. 80 - 85.]
Think, folks. Do you want your children indoctrinated to think and act like this? Not if you are sensible. And not if you have come to realise that this is not an independent result of science, but an a priori imposition on it. As Lewontin stated in that infamous NYRB article in 1997:
the problem is to get them [the public] to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world [--> notice the ideological biases and assumed a prioris as well as the unwarranted contempt and hostility to God and those who believe in him] , the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth [[--> NB: this is a knowledge claim about knowledge and its possible sources, i.e. it is a claim in philosophy not science; it is thus self-refuting] . . . . It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes [[--> another major begging of the question . . . ] to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counter-intuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute [[--> i.e. here we see the fallacious, indoctrinated, ideological, closed mind . . . ], for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. {“Billions and Billions of Demons,” NYRB, January 9, 1997. If you swallow the talking point that this smoking gun quote is quote mined, kindly cf the fuller cite and notes with onward links here}
KFkairosfocus
September 23, 2013
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Jerad: Your latest dismissal of the pivotal issue that absent question-begging a priori materialism and bending the very definition of science, we can see that the evo mat paradigm has not got the observationally anchored goods on actually grounding its claims is absolutely revealing. Especially since this is the backdrop to all the posturing as to how ID is not science and its all politics so lets make up conspiracy stories and play dirty academic politics as with a very long list of dissidents. I don't think you know how tiresomely you echo the marxist talking points from the 1970's and 80's, even as the system was setting up to blow up. You would do well to go read the history of the Prussian Kulturkampf of the 1870's, and especially on the backdrop to it. BTW as we speak, in Quebec, there is a push on about a charter of secular values that has even Amnesty International concerned. Multiply that by your confusion of real freedom above with some bunch of faceless bureaucrats stamping a permit, you are ALLOWED to x . . . then think again. KFkairosfocus
September 23, 2013
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Just one thing, the observational evidence for blind watchmaker chance and necessity creating FSCO/I and capable of OOL and of origin of body plans is _______, and the nobel prize for the relevant discovery is _______. KF
Another one of your strawman talking topics. And presented in bad faith merely to score points I'd say since you know it's not answerable. I answer, you win by pointing out I'm wrong. I don't answer you win because I didn't address the question.
F: All you have managed to prove is how unreliable you are with facts in front of your face. Did you notice that there was direct discovery of smoking gun documentation of what really went down? I leave it to the astute onlooker to then understand the agit prop games that are going on on the part of ruthless evo mat agenda radicals. KF
"agit prop games"? You mean like asking non-answerable strawman questions? Like continuing to try and argue a point against evolutionary theory which is not a point the evolutionary theory makes? Like trying to gain acceptance for a theory of some insidious materialist conspiracy when none exists? That kind of stuff?
Ever heard of social Darwinism? Marx and Nietszche both found Darwin’s work invaluable in formulating their political theories.
Well, since those guys are dead (and quite a long time ago at that) and since I don't know anyone who claims to be a Social Darwinist now . . . . and since WJM said "Darwinist" and not "Social Darwinist" then . . . what's your point?Jerad
September 22, 2013
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mung: Because if you had done so already, you wouldn’t be trolling here at UD about it.
Why would that necessarily follow from any communication with Iowa State?franklin
September 22, 2013
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franklin:
What makes you think I haven’t done so already?
Because if you had done so already, you wouldn't be trolling here at UD about it.Mung
September 22, 2013
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mung: I propose that you write them and ask.
What makes you think I haven't done so already?franklin
September 22, 2013
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frankin:
What metirc do you propose that Iowa State University should use to evaluate tenure track employees?
I propose that you write them and ask.Mung
September 22, 2013
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mung: So it follows that it was what he did, or did not do, at Iowa State University.
As it pertains to Iowa State University granting him tenure, yes. What metirc do you propose that Iowa State University should use to evaluate tenure track employees?franklin
September 22, 2013
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franklin:
Whatever he [Guillermo Gonzalez] did at Washington as a graduate student and at Texas while a psotdoc is irrelevant to his meeting the requirements of tenure while in the employ of Iowa State University.
indeed So it follows that it was what he did, or did not do, at Iowa State University. Do tell.Mung
September 22, 2013
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