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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
kf: All you have managed to prove is how unreliable you are with facts in front of your face. Did you notice that there was direct discovery of smoking gun documentation of what really went down?
KF, I'm not surprised that you are fleeing from the challenge I posed to you as is Barb. You and I, and likely BArb, all realize that Gonzalez was unable to obtain funding for research and graduate student support as any tenure track associate professor MUST do in order to gain tenure...not surprising Iowa state left him go. It is also quite likely that you now realize that Gonzalez's publicationo record while empoloyed as an associate professor at Iowa state was nothing less than a subpar performance...it is no wonder he was denied tenure with the lack of scholarly publication as well as not conducting any original research while on his probationary period. That type of performance will never get a person into a tenured position nor should it by any measure of evaluation. you likely also realize that failure to mentor any graduate students, over a six year stint as an associate professor hoping to gain tenure, is a sure death knell to any associate professors hope for tenure at any university. You know the facts are against you so you flee and make ridiculous unsupported assertions. KF you need to do better....much better! You can start trying to reclaim any credibility you might have once had by listing the finding Gonzalez was able to obtain when compared to his peers, document the number of graduate students he successfully mentored, and compile the list of scholarly publications that Gonzalez produced while employed as an associate professor at Iowa state ( with reference how it matches his peers in his home department). You can also throw in whatever original research that he was working on during the six years he was an associate professor (hint it is ZERO). I doubt you'll do any of that and instead will prefer to stand on the sidelines and spout misleading and incorrect facts surrounding the obvious failure of Gonzalez to perform as was expected of him once he was at Iowa state. Whatever he did at Washington as a graduate student and at Texas while a psotdoc is irrelevant to his meeting the requirements of tenure while in the employ of Iowa State University.franklin
September 22, 2013
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"Good thing 'Darwinism' doesn't attempt to define political systems or laws then." Ever heard of social Darwinism? Marx and Nietszche both found Darwin's work invaluable in formulating their political theories.Barb
September 22, 2013
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F: All you have managed to prove is how unreliable you are with facts in front of your face. Did you notice that there was direct discovery of smoking gun documentation of what really went down? I leave it to the astute onlooker to then understand the agit prop games that are going on on the part of ruthless evo mat agenda radicals. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Jerad: Just one thing, the observational evidence for blind watchmaker chance and necessity creating FSCO/I and capable of OOL and of origin of body plans is _______, and the nobel prize for the relevant discovery is _______. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Elizabeth Liddle:
Mung, you seem to have reading comprehension issues.
I'm not the one who accused Stephen Meyer of not knowing the difference between phyla and phylum, Elizabeth. That was you.Mung
September 22, 2013
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I would just like to say, before I address particular issues, that I have been presented with a situation wherein my critics win regardless of my actions. IF I agree to denounce their supposed materialist plot to free the world of religious beliefs then I would be bolstering their arguments, giving credence to their suppositions. I do not believe there is any kind of conspiracy. I do believe individuals have made statements highly critical of religious believers and ID proponents as is their right under 'our' enlightened rules of free speech. It doesn't mean any organisation or concentrated effort has arisen. There are groups like NCSE which advocate and advise along certain policy lines. But they are upfront and clear in their motives and tactics; hardly a conspiracy. Regardless, I have not supported or participated in any attempts to restrict anyone's access to their legally guaranteed rights. I do not intend to do any such thing or to support anyone who does intend to do such thing. I would have no idea who to denounce even if I thought there was a plot afoot. Secondly, if I choose NOT to agree with KF and William and others that there is some cabal of atheists who are persecuting people of good faith and true then they win because then I'm part of the problem. But I'm not. I'm not doing any of the things they complain about, I do not associate with any of the people they complain about, I do not support (which, I agree, is different from not agreeing with) any of the people they complain about. So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. I'm unable to stop from being some kind of pawn in someone's 'war' game.
Do you see how you are ducking and dodging in order to twist issues into a trollish attack?
No attack intended. That's your perception.
As in the pivotal issue of slander, false accusation of fraud, worse conspiracy accusation of treason to set up a theocracy, leading to among many other cases a live case of censorship and career busting at Ball State University?
Nothing to do with me. I've not addressed these issues at all. I've got nothing to deny, defend or decry.
Recall, the issue with EL is that she is currently hosting slander-fests at her blog. You came up in support, multiplying the enabling behaviour, and I have simply laid out the correct, blunt names for and historical roots of the rhetorical tactics you have been using.
You're wrong that I express any opinion either way in that matter. And, according to what I've read ON THIS FORUM you have precious little evidence to back up your accusation.
Drop the tactics, the casting of loaded complex questions, and the enabling of slander, censorship, career busting, outing and threatening uninvolved family [this has personally happened to me and I assure you having to go to senior police about something like this is no fun) etc etc, and I will have no reason to point these things out.
I can't drop what I haven't held.
And, on far too long experience of dealing with radical subversives and the naive who enable them, I suggest you watch the company you keep and enable,
I'm not keeping any company. I'm not enabling anyone.
as well as the sources and arguments you entertain. As one entitled to the lab coat myself, I would suggest to you that you are simply blind to a lot of ideological issues in and around science and scientists. You may find a look at Kuhn on paradigms useful, and you will find it helpful to read the five from the horse’s mouth examples here on on specifically materialist bias in science in our time. As for not finding arguments persuasive, given presuppositions obviously at work and failure to address pivotal matters on core merits — I here think of how today makes a full year since the challenge to actually warrant the blind watchmaker thesis was put to you and ilk, that is no surprise.
I told you why, at the time and more recently, why I chose not to attempt your 'challenge'. If 150 years of research, data collection, publications, television series and books have not convinced you then what's the point? I'm not in the mood to waste my time.
This BTW is the root problem, when science moves into a crisis phase, issues of inductive logic, empirical warrant and worldview influences come to the fore — areas where scientists in our time tend to be laymen, and where the public at large is even less equipped. As a result these matters tend to deteriorate into ideological conflict. In turn that opens the door to ruthless radicals with Alinsky tactics and a cold reptilian ferocity. That is why we see the sort of accusations of fraud, slanders and the censorship and career busting that are going on.
No accusations or slanders or censorship by me. I continually do not understand why you have to assume that because I agree with someone else about the science that I am operating out of some kind of ideology.
The materialist, left-wing radical conspiracy has already done it’s work on you, Jerad, by your use of the term “you’re allowed”.
Oh dear. I didn't know. Should I be saluting some flag or singing some anthem or paying some dues then?
Yes, you are. Look up the term “useful idiot”. At best, you are naively enabling the destruction of the necessary, philosophical underpinnings that hold the line between personal, natural-rights liberty and a state that merely “allows” the people to do what is – for the moment – acceptable.
Oh well, at least I'm useful. Do I get to wear a funny hat showing my inculcation then?
Here in the USA, we have a father being forcefully thrown out of a public forum about school curriculum because he had questions he wanted answered and had something to say about that which the state was forcing on his kids.
I don't even know what case you're referring to. And I've had no involvement in it.
We have a government forcing a health care system through that has never had the support of a majority of the country, and which is currently causing people to lose work and health care coverage. We have an imperial President that, when gun legislation is blocked by the will of the people, he finds other routes to impose it anyway.
What does this have to do with science? If you're having a political problem then a) vote, b) exercise your constitutional right to free speech and state your case loudly and publicly, c) find some evidence to support your view, d) do some advertising to get the message out, etc. I don't even live in America (anymore). I haven't voted there in over 15 years.
What does this have to do with ID vs Darwinism? We have seen in the past that Darwinism paves the way down the slippery slope away from the concept of inviolable natural rights, towards the fascist idea that only the state, and the welfare of the state, is of ultimate importance. Please note how Liz and countless other socialists conflate “morality” with “what is good for society”, as if that is the natural definition of “morality”.
I'll talk about the science, what is true. I suspect that, for you, political power is more the issue that morality or what is true.
Who gets to decide what is “good for society”?
The electorate?
Freedom and natural rights are only inviolable rights under non-Darwinistic perspectives.
And as proscribed by agreed upon systems of laws.
They are just matter-generated, disposable opinions under Darwinism. Having a government that doesn’t view human life as sacred, and individual human rights as inviolable, is very dangerous territory.
Good thing 'Darwinism' doesn't attempt to define political systems or laws then. That's based on UD's glossary which says: When ID proponents on this site use the term “Darwinism,” they are referring to Neo-Darwinism, also called the modern evolutionary synthesis or Neo-Darwinian evolution. If you mean something different then I guess you'd better define your terms more clearly.
Blissfully and ignorantly bleating “there is no conspiracy” is beyond stupid; you’re putting the future at risk. You are just as much the problem as those that are doing these things deliberately.
"[B]eyond stupid" . . . I always was a high achiever.Jerad
September 22, 2013
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KF, instead of listening to the DI propaganda on this issue why not evaluate it for your self. You, hopefully, do realize that obtaining funding for research and graduate student support is a critical component of the tenure process. Gonzalez has admitted that in every merit review during his probationary associate professorship he was advised that he was severely lacking in this area. His response was to submit 2 grant applications per year which produced little to know funding. IN fact he generated $200,000 in funding during his probationary period compared to his peers which generated 1.3 million in funding. Of that $200,000 a student at another university received $64,000 of that and he used $58,000 of it for his Privileged planet book. Leaving nothing for conducting any original research. Additionally, he produced no new original research while at Iowa state....hardly the stuff of a tenure-track position. He focused on reevaluating others work and a rehashing of data he previously collected as a grad student and post doc. Anyone can look at the decline in his publication record once he arrived at Iowa state and reach the correct conclusion...he wasn't conducting any new original research whatsoever. He failed to mentor any graduate students through to the completion of their degrees. That is not something that is going to win anyone tenure. He flushed his own career down the drain and there is no one to blame but himself for his own performance.franklin
September 22, 2013
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Here is a sobering bit for those folks who are ignorant of what it takes to obtain a tenure position as well as what is evaluated for a tenured position: http://www.expelledexposed.com/index.php/the-truth/gonzalezfranklin
September 22, 2013
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F/N 2: John G West's July 10th corrective to the sort of talking points to try to discredit Gonzalez used above is worth citing from ENV: ______ >> Astronomer Guillermo Gonzalez is in the news this week because of his hiring as a faculty member by Ball State University in Indiana. That has led to the recirculation of a lot of misinformation about why Gonzalez was denied tenure by Iowa State University (ISU) in 2007. As we amply documented at the time, the real reasons Gonzalez did not get tenure at ISU were simple: discrimination and intolerance. Despite an exemplary record as a scientist, Gonzalez was rejected by ISU because of his support for intelligent design. Of course, ISU claimed otherwise, as various bloggers and reporters are uncritically reminding us. In the words of one reporter:
The university said the decision [to deny tenure to Gonzalez] was based on his refereed publications, his level of success in attracting research funding, the amount of telescope observing time he had been granted, the number of graduate students he had supervised, and evidence of future career promise in astronomy.
Really? Let's take the three most important factors mentioned by ISU: "Refereed publications" Refereed publications were supposed to be the primary standard for excellence in research according to Gonzalez's own department's tenure and promotion policies. So how did Gonzalez perform according to this primary criterion? He published 68 refereed articles in science journals. That's 350% more than the 15 articles his department regarded as the normal standard for demonstrating research excellence. Even if one only looks at articles published by Gonzalez after he arrived at ISU, he still produced 25 since 2002 -- which again is significantly more than the 15 articles that "ordinarily" are supposed to demonstrate research excellence according to his department's standards. In addition, according to the Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System, Gonzalez had the highest number of "normalized citations" to his work among the astronomers in his department for articles published between 2001 and 2007. More generally, Gonzalez had more peer-reviewed journal articles than all but one of the faculty granted tenure at ISU in 2007. In fact, Dr. Gonzalez had more peer-reviewed journal articles than all but 5 faculty granted tenure at ISU between 2003 and 2007! "Research funding and grants" Research funding was not a published criterion for earning tenure in Dr. Gonzalez's department. Indeed, it wasn't even mentioned in the departmental standards for tenure and promotion. So if this factor was considered key in his tenure denial, ISU was applying a criterion outside of its own stated standards. Even had the criterion been valid, Gonzalez did receive $172,000 in outside grants while at ISU, which was more grant money than 35% of ISU faculty granted tenure in 2007 whose CVs listed grant dollars. "Evidence of future career promise in astronomy" Surely the main evidence of an academic scientist's future career potential is his ability to generate refereed publications as well as the impact of those publications on his discipline. It is clear that Gonzalez stood out in both areas. ISU also suggested at the time that its tenure standards were "so high, that many good researchers have failed to satisfy the demands of earning tenure" at ISU. Contradicting this claim was the fact that 91% of ISU faculty applying for tenure in the year Gonzalez was considered received it. Public documents requests filed by Discovery Institute later revealed just how corrupt the ISU tenure process was, exposing the vicious campaign that took place behind the scenes to deny Gonzalez tenure and violate his academic freedom rights because of his support for intelligent design. Let's hope that Gonzalez gets fairer treatment at Ball State University.>> _____ There are of course onward links on details. Compare this to the picture being painted for the naive above by those parotting standard blame the victim talking points. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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KF: The blame the victim projection game continues. Just for one, Gonzalez has pioneered a whole field in astronomy and had a higher pub record than anyone on the staff with him
Not during the time of his probationary position as a associate professor.
KF: in this case discrimination and career busting.
the only career buster int this case is Gonzales himself for failing to do the things he knew would be required for a successful tenure pursuit, i.e., mentor graduate-level students, obtain funding, and produce scholarly publications. What he did previous to hs appointment as an associate professor is irrelevant. His previous work got him a foot in the door but it was up to him to deliver on his responsibilities and he failed. It shouldn't really come as any surprise that he was rejected. While you believe that people should be promoted and retained even in the teeth of failure to perform as they know they are required doesn't mean the rest of world has lost their sanity. Try to do better....much better. For example I give you the same challenge I posed to Barb. WHow much funding was Gonzalez able to obtain during his probationary period in comparison to his peers? How many graduate-level students did he successfully mentor? How many scholarly publications did he produce during his probationary period (which one of the essential requirements for a successful merit review)? If you have any intellectual honesty at all you can easily see that he was not qualified for tenure due to his own poor performance.franklin
September 22, 2013
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F/N: The blame the victim projection game continues. Just for one, Gonzalez has pioneered a whole field in astronomy and had a higher pub record than anyone on the staff with him. Not to mention his publication while a junior staff of a significant technical textbook. But no, one has to find something to make it seem plausible tot he true believers that he is sub par, or at least that they could push that talking point with a straight face; never mind the selective hyperskepticism involved, in this case discrimination and career busting. The fact is the emails are there to prove that his performance as a faculty member had little to do with what happened, his views expressed in the book Privileged Planet -- which BTW is an extension of his work that was pioneering -- did. But, the turnabout blame the victim game is very effective. Coppedge of course had a very good staff evaluation record UNTIL it turned out that he dared raise an issue that was out of the circle of materialist orthodoxy. The Smithsonian case is yet another, and so on down the long list of the slaughter of the dissidents. When we canot trust the ideologues we are dealing with to get facts straight when we have record and witnesses in front of us, we have no basis for trusting their judgements on a remote unobserved past. Indeed,t he very fact that they wish to proclaim a theory a FACT, tells us a lot. Explanations are not facts, and in fact the claimed blind watchmaker mechanisms have simply not been shown capable per observation of creating FSCO/I -- a main reason why the essay challenge of a year past remains unanswered today. There is but one think known to do that, design. But to infer design of cells chock full of FSCO/I is strictly verboten, so we are back to materialist ideology driven indoctrination substituting for education. Even the very definition of science and its methods is being ideologically perverted from what a sound grasp of inductive reasoning and the history of science would warrant. But, to those caught up in the bewitchment, it all seems so true. Take off the rosy tinted spectacles and you will see a clearer though far more troubling, view of the world of our day and the plight of our civilisation. perhaps the single most worrying sign of all, on reflection, is the one WJM highlighted earlier. There we have someone who thinks it is okay to say that we are ALLOWED to worship etc. Allowed by whom on what grounds of sufferance for the moment pray tell? Sufferance and grudging toleration in a climate of whipped up slander, false accusations and grotesque conspiracy theories is not liberty, it is the beginnings of a grim night of full bore kulturkampf. Don't ever forget that what Bismark tried in the 1870's was brewing for decades through sowing of fear and suspicion on little or no valid warrant. And I shudder to think how the main target apart from the institution of the Roman Church, was Catholic Poles. From the 1870's to 1940 is not that long in terms of folk memories. And the very first target of Nazi aggression against allegedly evolutionarily inferior races was: Catholic Poles, where the officer corps was still dominated by the Prussian Junker class. I remember the remarks on how I think it was Heinz Guderian diverted a Panzer column to make sure it passed over his family's estate. And of course, having conquered Poland, fully half the Jewish holocaust was of Polish Jews -- Poland being the pivot of global Jewish culture in that time. We need to think very soberly about the matches that are being played with and the fires they may lead to, not just right away but down the road. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Brent #661
WJM has indicated that a way forward in winning the war is to focus not only on the bullets and bombs, or their purity, but on recruiting more members through making our side look fairer and their side scarier.
There's probably nothing that makes your side look less fair or more scary than statements like these. It's the sort of thing that would have people backing away, slowly.goodusername
September 22, 2013
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barb: franklin @ 679: Yes, franklin, and the atheist group that objected to him getting tenure and complaining about it had nothing to do with his being denied it, right?
Why should he have been given tenure given his poor performance as an associate professor? No one will be granted tenure if their merit performance evaluations are subpar. gonzalez's record reflected such a profile. If you don't obtain research grants you won't get tenure, If you don't successfully mentor -graduate-level students to the completion of their degrees you won't get tenure, If you don't produce sufficient scholarly publications you won't get tenure. Gonzalez failed on all these accounts and like everyone else who performs in such fashion after your probationary period is over you will be denied tenure....and rightly so. How about you compare his grant funding to his peers, and his mentoring record against his peers, as well as his production of scholarly publications when compared to his peers. Post your results here and prove to me that he should have been granted tenure based on his record of merit in his position as an associate professor.
barb: Where are you getting your facts from? How do you now that both men had “subpar” skillsets? Who says?
Where anyone with interest would get their information. Gonzalez's record is available for all to view as is Coppedge's evaluations and in that case of larger context that he was just one individual among hundreds that were let go due to the project winding down. What makes him more special than the other 199 folks who lost their jobs. You don't get promoted/tenured/retained if you aren't performing up to the expected standards of the job you were hired to do. Do you find that an unreasonable position?franklin
September 22, 2013
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franklin @ 679: Yes, franklin, and the atheist group that objected to him getting tenure and complaining about it had nothing to do with his being denied it, right? Where are you getting your facts from? How do you now that both men had "subpar" skillsets? Who says?Barb
September 22, 2013
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barb: Earlier upthread, someone stated that this culture war is “phony.” It certainly is not if people such as Guillermo Gonzalez and David Coppedge are being fired for their beliefs. Which, by the way, is illegal. It’s discrimination.
Odd view of the facts of these cases. For example Gonzalez was denied tenure for not doing the things a individual hoping for tenure needs to accomplish. He wasn't brining in any grant $$, had not successfully mentored any graduate-level students, and his production of scholarly works had dropped to near zero. ANY individual with that track record is going to be denied tenure...and rightfully so. He isn't the only person denied tenure for the listed reasons and he won't be the last. To think his case is special is an odd way of looking at the facts. Coppedge was fired as part of a very large layoff and his skill set was subpar as well as numerous complaints of his inability to work with the other people on the project that was winding down. His frequent documented disruptions in the work place also did not help his case of being of value to any project given he was competing with several hundred others to retain their job. If you're going to cry about Coppedge then I have to wonder why you aren't insisting that all the layoffs should have been reversed as well.......a ridiculous way to impose on any company trying to conduct business.franklin
September 22, 2013
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In re: Kairosfocus' 667 here, see my comment here, especially the last four paragraphs, on the transcendental argument for realism. That post and this one are very quick, crude sketches of how I regard the compatibility of rationalism and naturalism.Kantian Naturalist
September 22, 2013
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Earlier upthread, someone stated that this culture war is "phony." It certainly is not if people such as Guillermo Gonzalez and David Coppedge are being fired for their beliefs. Which, by the way, is illegal. It's discrimination.Barb
September 22, 2013
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I am not sure I'd classify the teaching of evolution as a conspiracy, but I would certainly classify it as propaganda. Consider the following examples: “Evolution is a fact.” This is the standard confession of faith that assures the scientific community of your orthodoxy. And for public consumption, the claim is often added: ‘It has been proved so often that there is no longer a need to repeat the proof.’ Very convenient, especially since the evolutionist has no proof to repeat. Yet, for years the statement has been made again and again, like some mystical chant: “Evolution is a fact.” In April 1989 last year, in a book review in The New York Times Book Review magazine, biologist Richard Dawkins wrote: “We are here talking about the fact of evolution itself, a fact that is proved utterly beyond reasonable doubt.” He then said that to consider creation “in biology classes is about as sensible as to claim equal time for the flat-earth theory in astronomy classes. Or, as someone has pointed out, you might as well claim equal time in sex education classes for the stork theory. It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but I’d rather not consider that).” Stephen Jay Gould wrote an essay on evolution in the January 1987 issue of the science magazine Discover. Intent on overkill, in this five-page article he proclaimed evolution to be a fact 12 times! Excerpts from the article follow: Darwin’s lifework was “establishing the fact of evolution.” “The fact of evolution is as well established as anything in science (as secure as the revolution of the earth about the sun).” By the time of Darwin’s death, “nearly all thinking people came to accept the fact of evolution.” Gould spoke of it as “secure fact” and “the fact of transmutation.” “Evolution is also a fact of nature.” “Evolution is as well established as any scientific fact.” “Our confidence in the fact of evolution rests upon copious data.” He speaks of biologists’ agreement “about the fact of evolution.” “Theologians haven’t been troubled by the fact of evolution.” “I know hundreds of scientists who share a conviction about the fact of evolution.” At one point in the article, Gould said: “I don’t want to sound like a shrill dogmatist shouting ‘rally round the flag boys,’ but biologists have reached a consensus . . . about the fact of evolution.” But really, does that not sound like “a shrill dogmatist shouting ‘rally round the flag boys’”?Barb
September 22, 2013
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WJM: You are quite right to highlight the "you are allowed" issue, as in the vast difference between genuine liberty and state licensing that can be taken away at some bureaucrat's whim or court order. I should add that here is no one grand materialist conspiracy, though there are many agendas that are allied under names like progressivism, science, science education, freedom FROM religion etc etc, that form a broad sociocultural agenda with a common shared scientism and evolutionary materialism-influenced worldview. As I have been pointing out to KN and others, this fatally undermines foundations of morality and thus genuine rights and freedom. As a part of this, there is a projection of a slander-laced grotesque, ill founded conspiracy narrative, a slander against the design theory and its adherents. On psychology of defensive projection, this is a mirror image to the awareness at some deep level of being involved in an aggressive agenda and projecting the same outwards. Hence the power of the turnabout accusation tactic. Hence also the refusal to engage seriously ion merits of inductive logic, observed evidence and warrant that actually grounds design theory. For instance, FSCO/I is EASILY OBSERVABLE and an intuitive concept. Why on earth is this suddenly a suspect notion the occasion of trying to indulge the genetic fallacy of attacking that IDiot from the Caribbean who often uses it as an abbreviation? Could it be, because it is easier to shoot at the man than to deal with the basic fact that FSCO/I on billions of cases is indeed a reliable sign of design, and that the living cell is chock full of it? Especially when your worldview is committed to that that cannot be allowed to happen? KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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You are just as much the problem as those that are doing these things deliberately.
This is very on-target. This may be a good topic for a lengthier post, William. People are too easily put at ease because they are not doing something deliberately.Brent
September 22, 2013
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You’re not a victim. You’re not being persecuted. You’re allowed to worship as you wish. You’re allowed to speak your mind and on your own blog. You’re allowed to own property, vote, buy stuff. There’s no materialist conspiracy.
The materialist, left-wing radical conspiracy has already done it's work on you, Jerad, by your use of the term "you're allowed".
I am not part of your problem.
Yes, you are. Look up the term "useful idiot". At best, you are naively enabling the destruction of the necessary, philosophical underpinnings that hold the line between personal, natural-rights liberty and a state that merely "allows" the people to do what is - for the moment - acceptable. Here in the USA, we have a father being forcefully thrown out of a public forum about school curriculum because he had questions he wanted answered and had something to say about that which the state was forcing on his kids. We have a government forcing a health care system through that has never had the support of a majority of the country, and which is currently causing people to lose work and health care coverage. We have an imperial President that, when gun legislation is blocked by the will of the people, he finds other routes to impose it anyway. What does this have to do with ID vs Darwinism? We have seen in the past that Darwinism paves the way down the slippery slope away from the concept of inviolable natural rights, towards the fascist idea that only the state, and the welfare of the state, is of ultimate importance. Please note how Liz and countless other socialists conflate "morality" with "what is good for society", as if that is the natural definition of "morality". Who gets to decide what is "good for society"? Freedom and natural rights are only inviolable rights under non-Darwinistic perspectives. They are just matter-generated, disposable opinions under Darwinism. Having a government that doesn't view human life as sacred, and individual human rights as inviolable, is very dangerous territory. Blissfully and ignorantly bleating "there is no conspiracy" is beyond stupid; you're putting the future at risk. You are just as much the problem as those that are doing these things deliberately.William J Murray
September 22, 2013
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Jerad: Do you see how you are ducking and dodging in order to twist issues into a trollish attack? As in the pivotal issue of slander, false accusation of fraud, worse conspiracy accusation of treason to set up a theocracy, leading to among many other cases a live case of censorship and career busting at Ball State University? Recall, the issue with EL is that she is currently hosting slander-fests at her blog. You came up in support, multiplying the enabling behaviour, and I have simply laid out the correct, blunt names for and historical roots of the rhetorical tactics you have been using. Drop the tactics, the casting of loaded complex questions, and the enabling of slander, censorship, career busting, outing and threatening uninvolved family [this has personally happened to me and I assure you having to go to senior police about something like this is no fun) etc etc, and I will have no reason to point these things out. And, on far too long experience of dealing with radical subversives and the naive who enable them, I suggest you watch the company you keep and enable, as well as the sources and arguments you entertain. As one entitled to the lab coat myself, I would suggest to you that you are simply blind to a lot of ideological issues in and around science and scientists. You may find a look at Kuhn on paradigms useful, and you will find it helpful to read the five from the horse's mouth examples here on on specifically materialist bias in science in our time. As for not finding arguments persuasive, given presuppositions obviously at work and failure to address pivotal matters on core merits -- I here think of how today makes a full year since the challenge to actually warrant the blind watchmaker thesis was put to you and ilk, that is no surprise. This BTW is the root problem, when science moves into a crisis phase, issues of inductive logic, empirical warrant and worldview influences come to the fore -- areas where scientists in our time tend to be laymen, and where the public at large is even less equipped. As a result these matters tend to deteriorate into ideological conflict. In turn that opens the door to ruthless radicals with Alinsky tactics and a cold reptilian ferocity. That is why we see the sort of accusations of fraud, slanders and the censorship and career busting that are going on. I suggest that a much better approach would be to simply focus on the merits, and the year old challenge would be a good place to start. That said, I wish you well for birthday. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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You're not a victim. You're not being persecuted. You're allowed to worship as you wish. You're allowed to speak your mind and on your own blog. You're allowed to own property, vote, buy stuff. There's no materialist conspiracy. Most scientists I know HATE being told what to do. The dislike top-down organisation. They are mostly very close to being anarchists. And, mostly, they are honest to a fault. They speak their minds and expect to be told when they're wrong. You find the idea of there being a cultural war a convenient rallying point, a way for you to gather some troops and shout some anthems. Some people disagree with you. They don't buy your arguments. I'm one of those people. I have no agenda. I'm not trying to shut anyone out. I believe science is a high standard and that things need to be carefully vetted before they gain that accolade. I don't think your ideas have met that standard but I encourage you to do more work and to try and meet that standard. I am not part of your problem. If you want to change the view people have of your ideas then do some more work, publish some research, establish your case. It'll be hard work but that's how you'll 'win'. Not by slinging accusations and casting aspersions. Not by interpreting every comment in the worst possible way. Time to get into the lab/field and do some work. It's my 53rd birthday today. We're going down to visit my in-laws. My father-in-law is suffering from early dementia. I should say the whole family is suffering as anyone who has gone through such a situation knows. And then when we get home I'll have to iron a bunch of clothes so that my family is ready for the first few days of the week at least. I also have to get ready for a new math tutoring client for tomorrow. You'll pardon me if I choose to put this forum a bit lower on my priority list. And, to be honest, I've not got much to say considering the reaction from some.Jerad
September 22, 2013
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F/N: 666 and the alternate 616 were code for Nero and reflected the situation where that unlamented ruler tried to divert blame and suspicion for the fire in Rome of 64 AD by pointing slanderous fingers at a hated minority, Christians. Many Christians paid with their lives for that false accusation and where it led for centuries. Let us never ever forget that life and death lie int he power of the tongue and that a little spark can set a conflagration of horrendous impact and cost. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Jerad, your retort above, in light of what you and your ilk have been doing, comes across as the turnabout "you hit back first." Blame the victim turnabouts are precisely a classic propaganda weapon from the arsenal of a certain unlamented central european regime. And remember, I am not just emptily saying things as cheap quips, I have laid out warrant time and again, only to be brushed aside by you and your ilk in haste to keep pounding away at attack or enabling behaviour. Please think again. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Comment 668: the neighbor of the beast! :)Chance Ratcliff
September 22, 2013
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KN: It seems to me that there are sobering problems with any view of human reasoning, warrant and knowledge that undermines our ability to in many cases accurately perceive and understand external reality, or that the act of recognising distinct identity A -- you will recall my bright red ball on the table (in honour of a somewhat sad story from childhood told to me by my wife that led me to go out and buy her a bright little red ball that she still has . . .) -- in a world W immediately imposes a dichotomy W = { A | NOT_A } from which we instantly have the corollaries, LNC and LEM to go with LOI. Labelling this as Aristotelian with hints of telling truth by the clock does not make this framework vanish, poof. Even the notion that error exists leads to the existence of truth, certainly knowable truth, and knowledge, not to mention the reality of self evident truth. Further, once we may simply ask and hope to answer of A why it is, we have sufficient reason in action and a grounding for cause and effect, necessity or contingency of being and possibility vs impossibility of being. From this, much follows. (And of course I am being very post Kant here, giving a weak form version on Schopenhauer.) Then also, if we are physical systems wholly caught up in chains of cause-effect and blind watchmaker evolutions from hydrogen to humanity, we run into exactly the issues of self referential undermining of rationality identified already and given several illustrative examples. Where, if reason is undermined, moral reasoning is undermined. And on morality, I normally start from our sense of having rights, duties of justice owed to us per our inherent dignity. This implies that binding moral obligations -- OUGHTs -- are real. This leads to the need for adequate grounds, and via the valid part of Hume's guillotine, that can enter at just one level; the roots of reality and the proper foundation of our worldviews. That is, there must be an IS at that level capable of adequately grounding OUGHT (on pain of being reduced to a might and manipulation makes right nihilistic chaos) and the leading candidate for this is the inherently good and wise Creator God. That is, it is reasonable to conclude that we are under moral government for the excellent reason that we are made by a good moral governor. As time permits I will go further with the paper but I think it reasonable to outline key aspects of my initial response. KFkairosfocus
September 22, 2013
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Couldn't resist grabbing comment 666. :-)Jerad
September 22, 2013
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I'm tired of countering false accusations about things I've not done. About motivations I don't have. About agendas I don't forward. I'm tired of not being treated as an individual but rather being lumped in with some evil enemy. Go find some other whipping post. Take your anger out on someone else. Try to be sure you're right next time.Jerad
September 22, 2013
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Jerad: I see you feel annoyed. If you feel so incensed over an unfortunately historically accurate description of the roots of rhetorical tactics your side has been routinely using, try to understand how it feels to be asked things that come over as "have you stopped beating your wife yet," again and again. (Think about the implications and assumptions behind several of your comments, such as what I had to point out about the question you asked on discovering the glossary Why did you jump to the assumption that -- without being able to spot a specific example of inaccuracy or being outdated -- it was to be viewed as if it is suspect. Can't you hear the underlying attitude/projective perception problem? Do you seriously believe something like that would be put up in a highly controversial context without a fair amount of review first?) Further to this, try to understand what it feels like to be repeatedly, falsely accused of fraud and being a part of some grotesque grand treasonous conspiracy to impose a nazi-like totalitarian tyranny, where also those who spread or enable such smears busily pretend that it is normal tea and crumpets discussion, or if it isn't you the victim are somehow the one really at fault and in addition there is a dismissive refusal to respond reasonably to repeated cogent correction. Worse, these slanders are multiplied by outing tactics, threats against family, censorship [cf the BSU live case] and career busting. Not to mention, well documented ideological imposition of a priori materialism on science of origins that blocks both science and science education from fairly evaluating what is in the end a straightforward inductive inference on empirically reliable signs. And of course, in a day's time it will be a full year since you were the first person given a challenge to actually summarise a cogent summary of the warrant for blind watchmaker mechanisms of chance and necessity per observed dynamics, adequately accounting for OOL and origin of the dozens of major body plans. You know or full well should know that a good faith free hosting at UD was and is on the table and that a cogent case would utterly devastate design theory on the world of life. The facts and record across the past year are quite plain: you and your ilk have refused to take that seriously, and have resorted to the usual attack attack attack tactics. Mounting up to false accusations of fraud and nazi like conspiracy to impose totalitarianism in recent weeks. All of this is a characteristic pattern of ruthless ideological kulturkampf tactics, as the run up to Bismark's campaign in the 1870's will show. And, the associated good [enabling] cop bad cop behaviour lends to the further conclusion that those who come across as genteel but take no serious steps to curb or at least repudiate the unsavoury bully boy tactics out there are also part of the kulturkampf network, by supporting and enabling the partyline. Of the other two you have mentioned just above, note that EL is HOSTING a slander-fest at her blog, and AF is implicated in wider and narrower patterns of false accusation. So, as you return to base having found this series of rhetorical raids has met a little stiffer resistance than expected, try to understand how "you hit back first" comes across to those of us who are being unjustly, falsely and stubbornly accused of fraud and treasonous conspiracy. KFkairosfocus
September 21, 2013
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