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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
EL, please don't think I've reconsidered my implication in the last post to you that I will no longer attempt to dialogue with you. But, for your information and others', clearly you hope to leave a feeling for others that you believe in an objective morality when you say "binding". For something to really be binding in a moral sense, it must be objective. But you cannot call your "morality" objective if you say that society determines the moral code, which is the whole point you've underhandedly avoided. I was not equivocating by saying "man" and then "a man". I was equalizing, for you attempt to say that society makes the moral code, but act as if the society isn't made up of men! Incredible! (Your response will surely be, "I never said that "men" (people) don't make up a society." But you act as if saying "society" frees you from the obvious fact that it is the people that make up society that make the moral code (according to you), and you've not, then, answered my challenge in the least (If men make up the moral code then man is the governor of that code, and not the other way around). As I said, incredible.) And you would be left with no defense in saying a single man cannot make the moral code, unless you want to say that it is "might makes right", or the majority, which you cannot justify. If that is the case, none of the moral code could ever be changed. Once the most powerful or majority had spoken, then that would be it. But that isn't the case, as there has been moral progress, such as treating blacks equal, along with women. (Now you'll say, "but the majority view changed", which is a very bad answer, for to have the majority view change, the new idea must have started with a few, but, since they were not the majority at that time, they were, according to your story, actually wrong! And if you say they weren't objectively wrong, then the moral code isn't, and never was, truly binding.) If the people that make up societies determine the moral code, then the people govern the moral code, and the moral code doesn't govern the people.Brent
September 18, 2013
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Don't confuse him, KF, there's a good chap.Axel
September 18, 2013
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A corollary of light photons having an absolute speed, its measurement as such, not being subject to the relative motions of the rest of objects in space-time, is that its origin is a non-local reference-frame. Moreover, how else can you explain that curious phenomenon other than the supervening of an omniscient and omnipotent being, aka God? Since such agent needs to know who (which potential Observers) are motionless or traveling at a constant speed, where on the globe, and at what speed, in order to adjust the speed of such photons to always hit said traveling object at its absolute speed. That is, unless we have two worlds coinhering - which is what the mainstream religions attest. Certainly Christianity.Axel
September 18, 2013
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Jerad, go look it up. You will see a case of utterly contrasting outcomes dependent on an OBSERVATION made presumably after the interference is supposed to happen at the slit. If you look, a particle pattern. If you don't, a wave pattern. Quantum weirdness on steroids. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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#318, Jerad: 'Remind me why I participate in this forum?' Remedial work on your sense of humour by-pass? #319: 'I’m trying to figure out how quantum mechanics (which have a very well defined and verified series of equations which spell out the situation) undermines materialism . . .' Try the non-locality of photons for size. #323 'A very poor choice of words at the very least.' My, that one had sting in its tail! And the more substantive ripostes you've spared us?Axel
September 18, 2013
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F/N: To forestall yet another pointless -- save the purpose of enabling the unspeakably contemptible --red herring chase, let me note that from Plato in The Laws Bk X, 2350 years ago, there has been a well understood contrast between the natural and the ART-ificial, as can be seen on your friendly local food nutrients label. The natural denotes that which happens by nature acting freely, i.e. by blind chance and mechanical necessity in light of initial conditions. The latter, actions of directed contingency towards purposes. It will be found that evolutionary materialists cannot give a non-question begging definition of the natural, and that the often repeated contrast between how science must explain by NATURAL causes and the imagined chaos of the alternative they stress, the supernatural, sets up and knocks over a rhetorically loaded strawman. The issue in the design inference is to distinguish natural or material causes acting through chance and necessity, and art acting by design, on empirically grounded reliable signs. Functionally specific, complex organisation and/or associated information is a useful summary term for many of these signs. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Jerad, there is a second challenge on the table, to ground a reasonable evolutionary material;ist account of mind and moral government, on similar terms to a year ago. KF
Yup, saw that. I don't consider myself a materialist exactly. Nor do I have the knowledge to address the issues.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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Sr Liddle
you said "This world is wonderful, whether you think it was designed by a creator deity, or whether you think, as I do, that it emerged by means of processes just as awe-inspiring (more so, even). Please be part of it!"
Who's your god greater than God?Andre
September 18, 2013
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Jerad, there is a second challenge on the table, to ground a reasonable evolutionary material;ist account of mind and moral government, on similar terms to a year ago. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Pandas says that all things result from two kinds of causes; natural and intelligent. Their classification implies that intelligence is unnatural! How do other "manufactured" items, such as beaver dams, and the nests of birds, wasps and termites fit into such a scheme? The analogy of the coded information in DNA to a message in a known language is highly exaggerated. The information is not organized into "words, phrases, and sentences." Even if scientists succeeded in determining the entire base sequence of an organism's genome, they would still be far from understanding how an organism results from that information. Because that information codes for many polymers of RNA and protein and the sequence in which they are to be synthesized so that their inherent self-organizing properties will "make" the organism. Also, molecular biologists have discovered that a large proportion of that "information" is nonfunctional nonsense.
from Critique: "Of Pandas and People" http://ncse.com/book/export/html/11773 Dr Liddle if you're wondering why we are "gatvol" (fed up) The paragraph above highlights why.....Andre
September 18, 2013
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Jerad, look at the3 case of the quantum double slit exercise especially that with the detector AFTER the slit. KF
And that undermines materialism how?
PS: I believe the term used was meant as a compliment, to one guarding her brood from future marches of folly.
A very poor choice of words at the very least.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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Somebody wrote: "timaeus can be dealt with later…I’ve got travelling to do!" Gee, that makes it sound as if a reply to what I wrote would require a lot of time and effort. I would have thought one sentence would do it; something like: "The extensive documentary evidence provided from the thread in question makes it clear that Timaeus was not at all guilty of the charge of obstruction, and the charge is withdrawn instantly, and with apologies." *If* someone *were* to write a sentence here something like that, that would wrap things up quickly and nicely. But I must not suggest *who* that person should be, lest I be accused again of "putting words in (someone's) mouth." Of course I do not expect that the hypothetical apology will appear on this site before the date of Armageddon. My goal was only to show that an apology was warranted, not to actually elicit one.Timaeus
September 18, 2013
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Jerad, look at the3 case of the quantum double slit exercise especially that with the detector AFTER the slit. KF PS: I believe the term used was meant as a compliment, to one guarding her brood from future marches of folly.kairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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With respect to that fateful August, that is an apt -- sadly, brutally, massively bloodily apt -- summary. The memorial at St Cyr (roughly, their Sandhurst or West Point) IIRC correctly reads, to the memory of the class of 1914. Nor can I forget the memorial at my Bajan High School to those alumni lost in two world wars, with the list for the first one disproportionately long. And in our own conflict, at length my heart bleeds when I realise the eternal significance of too much of what goes on, as men are so often influenced by bad ideas to take a fatal direction of life.kairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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With so little ammunition and armour of that nature at their disposal, they have every reason to resent such extremely persuasive appeals to authority. Indeed, the mathematically-derived implications of QM ought to be, what I believe lawyers designate as ‘binding’; not solely in their daily work, because obligatory as the most successful/advanced of all paradigms, but metaphysically as undermining their materialism.
I'm trying to figure out how quantum mechanics (which have a very well defined and verified series of equations which spell out the situation) undermines materialism . . .Jerad
September 18, 2013
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What a bitch! It takes a woman to write something like that! How withering can you get???!!!
Remind me why I participate in this forum?Jerad
September 18, 2013
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I read Barbara Tuchman's 'The Guns of August', KM, and double up laughing when I remember that saying of hers, 'War is the unfolding of miscalculations.' What a bitch! It takes a woman to write something like that! How withering can you get???!!!Axel
September 18, 2013
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Re your #290, William, the extreme distaste of materialists for quotes of historically major scientists, of whom they can count precious few, indeed, in their own pantheon, would I suppose be axiomatic, wouldn't it? With so little ammunition and armour of that nature at their disposal, they have every reason to resent such extremely persuasive appeals to authority. Indeed, the mathematically-derived implications of QM ought to be, what I believe lawyers designate as 'binding'; not solely in their daily work, because obligatory as the most successful/advanced of all paradigms, but metaphysically as undermining their materialism.Axel
September 18, 2013
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PS: Simon Greenleaf was a founder of Harvard Law School, and was a Christian. He applied the same principles to The Testimony of the Evangelists. J W Montgomery has an interesting update.kairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Axel, one of my job skills is strategic analysis, with hints of strat marketing and a bent to worldviews influenced geostrategic analysis, in an onward context of sustainable development. Mix in a lifelong love of history and that first political issue imbibed at mother's knee: antifascism. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Jerad: Clearly, you have not appreciated the force of the underlying point WJM has been making, that while we are capable of reason, too often -- especially in the collective -- we do not use it. Have you followed the history of C20? For instance, how could the most advanced scientific-industrial countries with one of the richest cultures and perhaps the best overall educational system fall to a blatantly nonsensical and self-refuting ideology led by an ill bred demagogue and guttersnipe associated with a shadow army of street toughs? Utterly absurd, but it happened. (And I need not go on to the other absurd ideology that then dominated the next 50 years.) Did you study Barbara Tuchman's march of folly thesis, or simply read the microcosm story in Acts ch 27? I suggest you take a moment and read the already linked on the Marlboro man advertising revolution. (Remember, a generation past, NON-smokers were a distinct minority, often derided as being uptight religious fanatics refusing one of the pleasures of life because of silly rules in a silly book.) You have evidently not looked in detail at WHY I hold -- with some pretty good company -- that evolutionary materialism is self refuting, and I also think the list of cases given underscores the point. Instead, you are appealing to "fifty million frenchmen cannot be wrong." That is why I have first pointed out the horrific impact of the march of folly on history, even living memory history. Philip Johnson, replying to Lewontin as cited, shows how the self-same false ideology takes its grip on minds and institutions, once we have swallowed scientism and a naive positivist selective hyperskepticism:
For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. [[Emphasis original] We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose." . . . . The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked . . . Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. [[Emphasis added.] [[The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism, First Things, 77 (Nov. 1997), pp. 22 – 25.]
In short in the aftermath of the dynastic wars associated with religion, we moved down a line of increasingly secularist thought, more and more opening the door to a priori materialist scientism. By the time of Darwin and the generations after him, positivism, scientism and materialism ruled the day, dressed in the holy lab coat. This increasingly dominated the academy, education, media and popular culture. Don't forget, this is the era of social darwinism, eugenics and aggressive evolutionism-rooted ideologies. For telling instance, Marx's system was "Scientific Socialism." We have inherited that toxic brew as our intellectual atmosphere -- even eugenics keeps on rearing its ugly head. So, I have no great surprise to see a self-refuting ideology in an institutionally dominant position. And, the first centres were Germany and neighbouring countries, so it is just that this side of the Atlantic is lagging. Unless the trend is broken. And a first point in that is precisely to point out the massive absurdity involved. If you doubt the absurdity, kindly take up a second challenge (never mind the one ducked for a year) ground the realities of mind and moral government soundly on an evolutionary materialist worldview and scientific footing. The terms would be try not to go over 6,000 or so words, though links can be used, and I would also offer to host here at UD. (Here on is my already standing presentation at 101 level.) Prediction: cannot be effectively done on a sound basis. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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We SHALL return, General KF (or is it Air Marshall?)!!! Very interesting post, your #301. I once took evening classes in export law, as an aid to my then work as a generalist translator, and was all but moved to tears of wonder at the profound and searching wisdom of lawyers in matters where money and worldly power are involved, in the starkest contrast, of course, with the law's treatment of more essentially personal, human affairs. (Stand easy, Barry!) They would certainly have the warrant issue in this matter very astutely categorised, wouldn't they? I also read that fraud is particularly difficult to prove, and statistics is one of the few weapons in the prosecution's armoury; or maybe the only one in the surely invariable absence of a 'smoking gun'. Maybe statistical studies of the imperviousness to empirical research of the evolutionists' mindset would be worth undertaking.Axel
September 18, 2013
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Phinehas:
And I will note that your notes appear more directed toward insulating said domain than in defending it on the merits. Arguments from authority are so much less compelling when they come from those who cannot be said to have evolved upward.
It is impossible to "defend it on its merits" to someone who lacks the basic grasp of methodology to comprehend the defence. I have spent a lot of time attempting to explain scientific and quantitative methodology to William and to others, only to have those explanations rejected on grounds that simply do not make any sense, and which arise from a profound misunderstanding of the nature of science. If this sounds arrogant, it does not come from arrogance, but from the experience of learning science the hard way, and discovering just what you can claim validly and what you can not. And I would say that the following two claims are scientifically invalid: "Evolutionary theory is sufficient to explain life". "We can infer Design from the insufficiency of evolutionary theory to explain life". Any "evolutionist" who claims the former is not making a valid scientific claim. No model is ever "sufficient". However, any ID proponent who, correction perceiving this, then claims the latter is also not making a scientific claim. My sense is that the ire and scorn directed at "Darwinists" is directed at people who are perceived to be making the first of those two statements. I am not one of them. However, much of the ire and scorn directed at IDists is based on the invalidity of the second statement, which is what many ID arguments boil down to. If ID is to be taken seriously as science, it needs to stop focussing on the insufficiency of evolutionary theory, and start focussing on actual differential predictive hypotheses.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Quote-mining: using quotations out of context, often with ellipses, without a link to the source, to support a point that is the opposite of the one the author intended to make.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Central Scrutinizer:
1. I love real science
So do I!
2. Darwinists (the advocates of the Modern Synthesis) are not real scientists.
I am still unsure who these so-called "Darwinists" are supposed to be. But I guess they may not be scientists.
3. I am an agnostic. 4. I am not a Bible thumping fundamentalists. In short, Darwinists are self-deluded idiots. It’s SO obvious. Gawd, please, you Darbots. PLEASE post summore bull sh*t and bore me to death. You would do me a great service, since I’m suicidal. TYVM
I think you may have misunderstood what evolutionary science claims (and does not claim). And please look after yourself. This world is wonderful, whether you think it was designed by a creator deity, or whether you think, as I do, that it emerged by means of processes just as awe-inspiring (more so, even). Please be part of it!Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Optimus:
@ Elizabeth OK so here’s the thought experiment (it’s quite simple really): In front of you sits a model house (let’s say it’s the White House, just for kicks) made of Lego bricks. You didn’t witness its origin and possess no documentary evidence that would give away its origin. There are no finger prints on the structure. Given that data, what can be inferred about its origin? Specifically: 1. Was it the product of intelligent agency (i.e. a person)? 2. If so, what can be known about the agency responsible? – What are its physical characteristics? – What was its mental state when designing and fabricating? – Why did the designer build the Lego house? – What is the educational level of the designer? – Was there more than one intelligent agent involved? – When was the structure fabricated? – How long did it take? 3. If not, what process could be considered a viable explanation for the existence and nature of the house? Feel free to share with the TSZ regulars. I’d be interested to know how they answer.
I'd probably infer that it was designed by humans given that I apparently know that it is a model of a human house. If I didn't know that, I would probably infer that it was made by living intelligent beings if I knew such things existed in the locality. If I found it on Mars, and had never seen a human house, I would probably think first in terms of crystalline processes, and possibly biological processes, and if it didn't obviously reproduce itself, I would probably again infer that it had been produced by a living thing, either instinctively, as, say, with a wasp's nest or a termite mound, or intelligently, as with a human artefact.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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OK, thanks for the link, Reciprocating Bill. Yes, I agree, Upright Biped that the post of Mike's that you quoted violated the rules in a thread that I said would be more rigorously moderated. I apologise for that omission. However, I still take issue with the comment you made in that thread, and which you copied here:
Well, again in perfect form, she joins in and chats right along. That is all fine. No problem, it’s hardly important, and certainly nothing else was expected from her. I simply wanted to point out the hypocrisy.
I did not "join in" Mike's rule-violation, nor did I comment on it, nor did I "join in" with any rule-breaking. I probably failed to read it. But if it is hypocrisy to fail to moderate a violating post having said I would do so, then yes, you have a point. I did not moderate that post, and it should have been moved from the thread. Ideally it would be good to have some kind of alert-system at TSZ so that posters can raise the alarm on rule-violating posts, but I'm not sure that is possible in WordPress. I will look into it.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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I DO say that evolutionary materialist ideologues are in question-begging, self-referentially incoherent reduction to absurdity, and show just why — have done so openly for over 25 years in fact.
Interesting that if things are as you say that you think the deluded, misguided, ideologically driven materialists are in charge. What enabled that then? When did the paradigm shift from the pure/right way to the reality denying current crop of trough feeders? How do you explain that in many European countries there is not an us vs them mentality over such issues as evolution or climate change? Are the Norwegians and Danes and Swedes and Brits just too mired in the muck to realise there's another way? I'm quite sure that you and some others here do believe that there is some kind of grand conspiracy that exists to keep the truth down and the masses placated. But there isn't. Nor is there a culture was except that promulgated by those who think they're being oppressed when, in reality, some of them are the ones trying to bamboozle the public with their agenda. I feel sorry for some of you that are unwilling pay masters for the Discovery Institute. Make no mistake about it, Casey Luskin, Dr Wells, Dr Meyer, Dr Berlinkski, etc. make a living selling you guys books and such. Their main buyers are their true believers. Every year or so they pump out another book that you all will buy and help keep the dream alive. But who's paying for that? You are. And what have you got out it so far? Aside from lots of derision from most of the scientists in the world. Oh, I forgot, they have to do that to make sure no one takes you seriously. My bad.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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CS, 299: Please, if you are in such a state, get help fast. That is a permanent "solution" [NOT] to a temporary problem. KF PS: Do, on the broken window theory, watch language. We do not need to encourage the web vandals.kairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Hey, I got no 303! (a symbol of sound authority standing up to tyranny and chaos in the person of one Tommy Atkins, at 15 - 30 RPM rapid.)kairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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