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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
KN:
So liberal naturalists and supernaturalists agree that the space of reasons is irreducible to the realm of law, but disagree about whether that irreducibiity is the death-knell of naturalism tout court.
I'm not sure how this addresses the issue, let alone solves it. Unreliable reasoning cannot rely on itself in declaring itself reliable. You'd have to create quite the philosophical blizzard to convince someone to abandon this simple truth. In general, I find ever more complex and convoluted attempts to explain away simple truth less and less compelling. "When words are many, transgression is not lacking."Phinehas
September 17, 2013
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Depends what properties you are referring to. As I keep saying, the properties of a system differ from those of its parts. Each of those parts is also a system whose properties differ from those of its parts, right down to those bosons and fermions, and right up to the universe, or existence itself. But the capacity to conceive and execute a purpose seems to be a rather specific property of animals.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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#268 EBL: It is the system that is “behind the steering wheel”, not the parts, and that system has, clearly, properties not possessed by its parts.
Identify ‘the system’ please. Take for instance a bacterium. What is the so-called ‘system’? DNA, RNA, proteins or all three? Is it the bacterium as a whole? What do you consider to be the system?Box
September 17, 2013
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First, I’m not a moderator, I’m a contributor. I don’t have any moderator powers that I’m aware of. Second, please note your sloppy logic. Just because I think that it’s more important in the cultural battle to better mass market the product doesn’t mean I don’t take the scientific debate seriously. Third, I actually don’t take the Darwinist side of the debate seriously any more, because it’s incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid.
You are honest to a fault.
Axel made a good point about the common sense of the general public. Note how the general public in America still largely resists the idea of Darwinistic evolution. The problem, though, is that given enough time (like in several European countries), marketing, and propaganda given with the air of scientific authority, even basic common sense can be eroded. History is full of societies that have had their common sense, and innate morality, eroded in such a manner.
So, you reject the ideas that much of European society has come to accept modern evolutionary theory because it makes a strong and compelling case?
My view is that it would help to use some direct, no-nonsense marketing imagery and slogans that would serve to bolster and rekindle that common sense knowledge, not that scientific debates are useless or should be abandoned.
Any slogans in mind? Doubt Darwin, think Theism. Devine Design. I am not an accident. Design: it just makes sense. I have a purpose, what's yours? Do you think that any means are justified by the appropriate end?
From what I can see, the science side of the debate has turned. There’s just too much design in life for any reasonable person to assign to non-intelligent cause. As Bruce David said, its a powerful idea whose time has come. Incredulity may not be a scientific or proper logical rebuttal, but it’s all the public needs to turn against an idea.
Yeah but . . . is ID true? Surely that needs to be established with scientific methods?
And that’s what I’m hoping to do my part in facilitating: by giving the public all the common-sense incredulity it needs to turn it’s back on Darwinism, atheism, materialism, and all the emotional appeal it is looking for in order to be comfortable once again with its theism.
Ah yes, keep the customer satisfied. Comfortable. It's all marketing clearly.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Elizabeth Thank you for your response. I will post the thought experiment later on tonight on this thread.Optimus
September 17, 2013
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Box:
I strongly disagree. Fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics, are not behind the steering wheel. That follows from your absurd metaphysical belief.
No, it does not. It only follows from the absurd claim that a whole has identical properties to those of its parts, which is self-evidently false. Of course "fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways" are not "behind the steering wheel". Fermions and bosons configured into atoms, configured into molecules, configured into cells, configured into organisms, within an environment which the organism has evolved to survive and exploit, and navigate and understand, for which it has, necessarily, to behave in purposeful meaningful ways. It is the system that is "behind the steering wheel", not the parts, and that system has, clearly, properties not possessed by its parts. Whether that process was planned by a deity or not is possibly an interesting question. Whether the resulting organisms can do things that fermions and bosons cannot is a rather boring question, because self-evidently they can. Just as hydrogen and oxygen, configured into water, is a benign liquid, while hydrogen and oxygen not so configured, is a highly explosive gas.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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William:
Third, I actually don’t take the Darwinist side of the debate seriously any more, because it’s incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid.
I will note that you, to your credit, claim no scientific or quantitative expertise. I will also note that that doesn't put you in a strong position to declare an entire domain of science "incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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So, arguing the science of ID has been a colossal waste of time? It doesn’t matter because many people are only going to change their minds in the direction their heart leads?
Depends on what one's motivations are, and whom they are arguing with. Both can be done, and both have different sets of opportunities. My point here is that there are Alinsky-ish marketing and propaganda techniques - even if one still keeps away from tactics like outright lying and threatening people - that should be utilized to counter decades of anti-theistic propaganda and marketing.
I’m amazed that a moderator here at UD is saying such things. I guess if you don’t even take the scientific debate seriously then why should the rest of us?
First, I'm not a moderator, I'm a contributor. I don't have any moderator powers that I'm aware of. Second, please note your sloppy logic. Just because I think that it's more important in the cultural battle to better mass market the product doesn't mean I don't take the scientific debate seriously. Third, I actually don't take the Darwinist side of the debate seriously any more, because it's incredibly, overwhelmingly stupid. Axel made a good point about the common sense of the general public. Note how the general public in America still largely resists the idea of Darwinistic evolution. The problem, though, is that given enough time (like in several European countries), marketing, and propaganda given with the air of scientific authority, even basic common sense can be eroded. History is full of societies that have had their common sense, and innate morality, eroded in such a manner. My view is that it would help to use some direct, no-nonsense marketing imagery and slogans that would serve to bolster and rekindle that common sense knowledge, not that scientific debates are useless or should be abandoned. From what I can see, the science side of the debate has turned. There's just too much design in life for any reasonable person to assign to non-intelligent cause. As Bruce David said, its a powerful idea whose time has come. Incredulity may not be a scientific or proper logical rebuttal, but it's all the public needs to turn against an idea. And that's what I'm hoping to do my part in facilitating: by giving the public all the common-sense incredulity it needs to turn it's back on Darwinism, atheism, materialism, and all the emotional appeal it is looking for in order to be comfortable once again with its theism.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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#261
KN: And I don’t think that that’s true, because my own introspective access to my own intentions and purposes is conceptually mediated, just as other people rely on conceptual mediation to apprehend my purposes. If someone has a more sophisticated battery of concepts, he or she may be able to discern things about my purposes that I cannot recognize — that’s why counseling can be effective.
I don’t think we should conflate understanding purposes with the direct experience of purposes. I agree that a wiser person may have a better understanding of my purposes, but only after I let her/him in on my private purposes. A wiser person cannot have a better experience of my purposes (or my thoughts, feelings or my consciousness). And this what I'm talking about: the direct subjective private experience / observation of purpose.
KN: But neuroscience will probably tell us how the purposes, desire, and intentions of human persons emerge from the interactions of neurons.
I strongly disagree. Fermions and bosons behaving in the purposeless, meaningless ways described by physics, are not behind the steering wheel. That follows from your absurd metaphysical belief.Box
September 17, 2013
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Upright Biped:
Dr Liddle, if you really need a link to the two month long conversation that the quotes above were pasted from, you can find it by going to your personal blog, (theskepticalzone.com) and clicking on the link by Upright BiPed…then click on the thread called Semiotic Theory of ID. You’ll be able to distinguish it from the others because when you started the thread, you began with “Upright BiPed has been proposing what he has called a “semiotic” theory “.
What on earth is wrong with you, Upright Biped, that you cannot post a simple link? There are six threads on your theory at TSZ, and the one you have (finally) specified has over 1000 replies. If you want a response to your post, then please link to wherever it was that I said I was thinking of starting a thread with stricter rules. I don't think I ever did, in the end. But I'd like to see where I said it, seeing as you are basing your accusation of hypocrisy on it. BTW, in case you do not know, if you right-click on the date on a comment, you will have the option to copy the link location, which will put the URL to the post into your copy buffer. Ditto with the title of an OP.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Hope the operation went smoothly for you. You are pathetic.
Civil discourse lives . . . somewhere . . . I hope.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Concerning the nature of the designer, there’s no experiential warrant for thinking that artifacts will always (or even often) allow sound inferences to be drawn about the nature of the artificer.
What do you think about ID proponents' attempts at arguing a designer into existence? If it's not possible to infer aspects of the designer from the design then are you sure that a designer exists? Why is it not possible to expect there to be other evidence for the designer's existence? Why are all these questions not addressed? What is ID actually saying? Aside from: some unknown, unspecified designer did it? Is it really a scientific notion? Do you agree with Mr Murray that it's more important to focus on winning hearts over minds? Do you think he's right to categorise the 'conflict' as a war?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Box, that's definitely more clear, but I still don't agree. On your view, my own first-person access to my own purposes (goals, intentions, etc.) is direct, or immediate, in a way that someone else's access to those intentions or purposes cannot be. And I don't think that that's true, because my own introspective access to my own intentions and purposes is conceptually mediated, just as other people rely on conceptual mediation to apprehend my purposes. If someone has a more sophisticated battery of concepts, he or she may be able to discern things about my purposes that I cannot recognize -- that's why counseling can be effective. (Even though I have to incorporate those insights into my own conceptual framework in order to alter my behavior.) So, on one point, I don't think that purposes are essentially private, essentially apprehended from the first-person or subjective point of view alone. On another point, as to whether there can be an objective science of purposes -- well, sociology and psychology would seem to count, right? (To some degree, anyway.) That said, I do agree that studying the behavior of neurons is not going to tell us a lot about the purposes, desire, and intentions of human persons -- it's not going to radically upset thousands of years of humanistic learning, let alone 'common sense'. But neuroscience will probably tell us how the purposes, desire, and intentions of human persons emerge from the interactions of neurons.Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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Brent:
So, when you say “morality” and when I say “morality”, you know that you don’t mean the same thing I do, but won’t let on to that fact (like with many other words you use in this thread). Underhanded BS.
It is no such thing, Brent. If you meant something different, then clearly I misunderstood you. Please explain what you meant. And do not assume that when you are misunderstood, that "underhanded BS" is going on.
There can be no discussion with people who change meanings of words.
There can certainly be no discussion when people do not define words in the same way. If you are using the word in a different way to the way I was using it, the answer is to try to resolve the ambiguity, not to accuse others of lack of integrity.
Hope the operation went smoothly for you. You are pathetic.
I don't really have a response to that.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Hi Optimus, and congratulations on a far more coherent post than I ever manage on a smartphone! Here is my view on arguments from imperfection: I think myself that ID is, in principle, a perfectly testable hypothesis, as long as we are testing a designer with specific constraints. Constraints allow us to make a prediction. However, those constraints need, obviously, to be different from the constraints of the alternative hypothesis, e.g. darwinian evolution, otherwise we have no way of seeing which fits the data better. So we certainly cannot conclude that because design is evidently constrained, that there was no designer - it could have been a constrained designer. But nor can we conclude a designer. Indeed, without a specific design hypothesis we cannot, in my view, either exclude design, nor draw a design conclusion. I do not think that "science/darwin shows there was no designer" is a supported conclusion, nor could it ever be. I'm afraid I can't remember your hypothetical about Legos - could you repeat? Either here, or, if you prefer, at TSZ. If you register I can give you author permissions.
When I mentioned ‘artificial methodological principles’ I was referring to MN. I consider it superfluous to genuine scientific investigation, which is better practiced when starting from a position of agnosticism.
It depends on what you mean by this. Science works on the assumption that things are predictable. I certainly don't think science should start from the position that ID is not possible - that would be unscientific. But it must start from the position that hypotheses make predictions, and that is not possible with the hypothesis of an unconstrained ID.
Finally, I agree that careful definitions are important, but ID critics too often use these to avoid dealing with the substance of arguments. For example, in discussing whether observed microevolution sufficiently grounds larger macroevolutionary claims, many ID critics spend all their energy splitting hairs about defining the terms but ignore the substantive question of whether minor morphological changes justify believing that very dramatic changes to morphology (I.e. body plan level) can occur in a stepwise, unguided fashion.
I hear your complaint, but I suggest that the thing you are complaining about is more apparent than real. It is absolutely vital, when discussing a claim, to be absolutely clear what that claim is, and what the counter-claim is. This is not "splitting hairs" - it is simply how science must proceed if it is to make claims. So if by "macro-evolution" you mean "very dramatic changes to morphology", then you are not using the term in the way biologists use the term. That's fine, but in that case we need to know what examples you have in mind for "very dramatic changes to morphology". And when you clarify by saying "body plan level", we will tend to point out that at "body plan level" (e.g. the difference between bilateral symmetry and radial symmetry), at the time this happened, these were not "very dramatic changes". It's not as though a chordate is supposed to have evolved into a starfish. At the time various symmetries were emerging, there wasn't much to a "body-plan" other than symmetry. However, once a particular symmetry was established in a lineage, subsequent evolution continued down that body-plan lineage, giving us, for example, chordata down one lineage and echinoderms down another.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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/#256 follow up/ KN, you were referring to the second sentence! Excuse me again. I'm talking about direct observation of purpose. I can let you in on my purposes, but you (or a neuroscientist) have no direct observational access. That's what I'm saying.Box
September 17, 2013
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EL @ 246 (Pardon my lack of quotes - smartphone typing is a difficult art) Regarding arguments from imperfection, I couldn't tell if you agreed or not, so I'll leave that to you to clarify. I would say in brief that their principle defect is the illegitimate assumption that design necessarily produces perfection (perfection in and of itself being an incredibly subjective criterion). Concerning the nature of the designer, there's no experiential warrant for thinking that artifacts will always (or even often) allow sound inferences to be drawn about the nature of the artificer. Did you ever figure out a response to my hypothetical about Lego's? When I mentioned 'artificial methodological principles' I was referring to MN. I consider it superfluous to genuine scientific investigation, which is better practiced when starting from a position of agnosticism. I dispute your characterization of ID arguments but can say nothing farther as you have produced no specific examples. Finally, I agree that careful definitions are important, but ID critics too often use these to avoid dealing with the substance of arguments. For example, in discussing whether observed microevolution sufficiently grounds larger macroevolutionary claims, many ID critics spend all their energy splitting hairs about defining the terms but ignore the substantive question of whether minor morphological changes justify believing that very dramatic changes to morphology (I.e. body plan level) can occur in a stepwise, unguided fashion.Optimus
September 17, 2013
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# 253 KN
#294 Box: Neuroscience has never been (and will never be) able to study purpose. Purpose is part of consciousness – the subjective (hidden, private) domain.
#253 KN: That second sentence can’t be right just as it is — that would entail that I can never know anyone’s purposes besides my own, unless I were telepathic. Or that I can’t know my cat’s purposes.
Excuse me, Kantian Naturalist, my choice of words was inaccurate. Neuroscience will never observe purpose directly. Even the most powerful microscope won’t enable a neuroscientist to directly observe a purpose, concept, consciousness. She or he will never point a finger and say ‘right there is the purpose to be persuasive’. Agree?Box
September 17, 2013
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Dr Liddle, if you really need a link to the two month long conversation that the quotes above were pasted from, you can find it by going to your personal blog, (theskepticalzone.com) and clicking on the link by Upright BiPed...then click on the thread called Semiotic Theory of ID. You'll be able to distinguish it from the others because when you started the thread, you began with "Upright BiPed has been proposing what he has called a “semiotic” theory ".Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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So Dr Liddle, you need me to provide you a link to a thread you started on your site and that you personally participated in, so that you can determine if this:
“your effort seem like a naive and pretentious attempt to replace well-understood phenomena with something woo-woo … I find both UBP and WJM excruciatingly boring; and I suspect that the reason is that there is a remarkable similarity to other crackpots … one begins to wonder if there is any thought process there at all. I would suggest not … they hone their marketing shtick for their presentations to the gullible … There is another frequent correlation one sees among crackpotists; they often quote scripture from the Christian bible … has an instinctive hatred and distrust of science and any other perceived “competing authority” … don’t even appear to understand the question … a familiar characteristic of pseudo-science … you have no idea what you are talking about or what it is that you are attempting … Your obvious distain for age, experience, knowledge, and the female gender … YOU – I repeat – YOU were the one … you don’t have the slightest clue … You have no idea … you really have no clue … You have made no “material observations” … You have never taken a chemistry or physics class … comes from the socio/political culture of ID/creationism … The words don’t matter … bury his reification of ID/creationist misconceptions … an increasingly complex labyrinth of obfuscation and condescension … simply gussies it all up … an air-tight bundle of circular reasoning … Another would be ID “theorist” bites the dust … it too dissolves into nothingness … such lengthy, turgid prose … a quagmire of words … Crackpots never let go voluntarily; they will ride you to death ... His language has another purpose, namely, to establish a sectarian version of the universe …this is what UB is trying to do … As is evident in all of UB’s communication, he has never freed himself from projection … his own inner demons onto others … The Semiotic Theory of Intelligent Scattering … It is curious that ID/creationists don’t jump on things … Making a caricature of science and then shooting it down with great fanfare has been the socio/political tactic of creationists … every ID/creationist does it, and their rube followers – such as UB here … Just make up stuff and simply assert that anyone who knows anything about science is stupid … the fundamentalists who are against everything secular and the educational dropouts who harbor intense hatreds for those who actually try to learn … his rants pretty much revealed that he is engaged in a game of revenge … impressions I sometimes get from UB’s turgid writing … UB doesn’t appear to have any sense of humor whatsoever …This isn’t an intellectual discussion for him … it’s a personal vendetta against all smart people...The argument from ignorance is no way to go through life … UPB, and most ID advocates have not studied the history of science, or have learned nothing from it …UPB is arguing that because the templating process involved in translation is so complicated, it isn’t templating … Creationists (a group which includes ID-pushers) explicitly reject … The magic threshold … Why, then, do Creationists think … I think it touches on their “designer” … UPB’s argument relies on the following premises: If you haven’t observed it, it doesn’t exist … Perhaps we should all adopt a worldview that doesn’t require this pathetic level of detail … Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New ‘Intelligent Falling’ Theory … The goal is NOT to understand how something came to be … FIRST, assume goddidit as the default … and POOF using our conclusions as our assumptions once again “proves” our conclusions … In all of these efforts, the creationists make abundant use of a simple tactic: They lie. They lie continually, they lie prodigiously, and they lie because they must … What do you do to support a lie? You lie!
...meets your standards for this:
I do want to ensure that emotional baggage and assumptions about other posters’ motivations are rigorously excluded. Let’s conduct this in an academically rigorous way
Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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Neuroscience has never been (and will never be) able to study purpose. Purpose is part of consciousness – the subjective (hidden, private) domain.
That second sentence can't be right just as it is -- that would entail that I can never know anyone's purposes besides my own, unless I were telepathic. Or that I can't know my cat's purposes. It would be more correct to say that we have first-person access to purposes -- how I know my own purposes is different in kind from how other people know them -- yet others may have deeper understanding of my own intentions and desires than I do, depending on the avoidance or denial at work -- and we have second-person access to the purposes of others (by asking them) -- and we have third-person access to purposes, by observation, for those kinds of things that have purposes (including all sorts of organisms). Language and consciousness make a difference in the modes of access to purposes that are available, but it certainly doesn't follow that purposes are constituted by consciousness or only accessible through consciousness. I think that matters get much more interesting, and much harder to resolve clearly, if we ask, not about fairly trivial cases like cats, but about, say, earthworms or bacteria. Do earthworms have purposes? Goals? Intentions? Desires? Honestly, I'm not sure just how to go with this question -- but if they don't have goals and intentions, they have something extremely close. Certainly their behavior is teleologically structured, and that counts for a lot. And in general, I take it that x count as a living thing if, but only if, it characteristically displays teleological behavior. But that's just a description of the phenomenon of life, not an explanation of it. Instead of thinking of "mind" ("consciousness", "subjectivity") as something added to "matter" to produce purposive behavior, we can think of "mind" as an abstraction from what is originally purposive behavior -- "mind" is what is left over once purposive behavior is subjected the disenchantment of nature driven by the impetus to dominate, manipulate, and control. The "body" in "the mind/body problem" is the dead body analyzed by medicine aided by technology, and "the mind" is the parts of purposive behavior that don't fit into the conception of the body as studied by anatomy and physiology. [That's a quick sketch of an argument developed by the existential phenomenologist Merleau-Ponty and existential biologist Hans Jonas, and has been significantly built upon since their ground-breaking work. Thompson's Mind in Life is the cutting-edge work in the subject.)Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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#241:
For crying out loud, Elizabeth! You claim not to know what Darwinism or Darwinist is; and in the next breath, you hold forth on Darwinian mechanisms! Am I missing something here? Or am I going mad?
In case you haven't noticed, "Darwinism" is used to mean all kinds of bizarre things around here. In fact, the Darwinian mechanism is often the one thing that can be completely left off of any description.goodusername
September 17, 2013
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In re: 235 . . .
*Waiting with bated breath to see what the philosophers settle on…without recourse to the very reason in question.*
Well, in one clear sense, quite right: reason is an unavoidable presupposition of all inquiry. Or, as I would put it, we necessarily take ourselves (and others) to be inhabitants of "the space of reasons" -- the 'space' in which logical and extra-logical inferential relations between concepts are formed, evaluated, corrected, and so on. And so the space of reasons is necessarily a space of norms or of 'oughts.' Now, the Big Question for naturalists is two-fold: (a) is the space of reasons reducible to "the realm of law", where "the realm of law" refers to the totality of physical laws (or law-like generalizations), and (b) if the answer to (a) is "no," does that spell the end of naturalism? The basic idea of liberal naturalism is that "no" is the correct answer to both questions. In contrast, scientific naturalism (in its most frequently held version) thinks that the correct answer to (a) is "yes", and supernaturalism holds that the correct answer to (a) is "no" and that the correct answer to (b) is "yes." So liberal naturalists and supernaturalists agree that the space of reasons is irreducible to the realm of law, but disagree about whether that irreducibiity is the death-knell of naturalism tout court. [The above way of sketching out liberal naturalism is based on John McDowell's masterpiece Mind and World, with which I have a few, fairly minor and technical, reservations, but I'm basically sympathetic to it.) In re: 244 -- yes, nicely said. But one would need to look to primatology and paleoanthropology to get a comprehensive and detailed picture of how norms, moral and otherwise, emerge.Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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So, when you say "morality" and when I say "morality", you know that you don't mean the same thing I do, but won't let on to that fact (like with many other words you use in this thread). Underhanded BS. There can be no discussion with people who change meanings of words. Hope the operation went smoothly for you. You are pathetic.Brent
September 17, 2013
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#237 EBL
Yes, well, Box, with all due respect to Barry, I disagree with him. I think it is perfectly obvious that molecules, for instance, have properties not possessed by their constituent atoms.
Strawman. No one denies this, certainly not Barry. So what you are saying is that, because it is perfectly obvious that molecules have properties not possessed by its parts, it should also be perfectly obvious that a lump of meat can *poof* have the properties of ‘purpose’, ‘design’, ‘moral principles’, ‘beauty’, ’love’, ‘anger’ and ‘fear‘?
I see no “poofery” in the idea that an animal can act with purpose, even though its neurons cannot.
So even though its neurons cannot act with purpose you see no poofery whatsoever in the idea that an animal can act with purpose? I’ve read your sentence three times now, but I haven’t got the faintest idea how your logic works. These words: ‘I see no poofery whatsoever’ … how can you say that?
Indeed we know a great deal about the neuroscience of how such purposes are formed and executed.
Wrong. Neuroscience has never been (and will never be) able to study purpose. Purpose is part of consciousness – the subjective (hidden, private) domain.Box
September 17, 2013
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Axel: you mean "hilariously free of content". LarTanner: Yes, I have seen no cogent response to my simple point that Meyer does not understand the relationship between phylogenetics and taxonomy, as is evident in his own diagrams, and that this misunderstanding undermines his entire case.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Love that 'principle of parsimony', having discovered that their Brightest and Best have, in all seriousness, postulated a multiverse. I originally wrote, 'mutiverse'. Perhaps a more apt name.Axel
September 17, 2013
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Optimus: Critiques such as – ‘who designed the designer’ I agree. alleged violations of the principle of parsimony Usually off the mark. arguments from imperfection, Valid if design hypothesis is constrained; if design hypothesis is unconstrained, it is unfalsfiable unreasonable demands to specify the nature of the designer, If there are no specifications as to the nature of the designer, the hypothesis is unfalsfiable; if there are, then the demand is reasonable appeals to artificial methodological principles, Not sure what this refers to but certainly many ID arguments are methodologically unsound prolonged obfuscatory semantic criticisms, etc. Most "semantic criticisms" I have read are absolutely on point. You cannot conduct science without rigorous operational definitions. These are frequently lacking in ID arguments. Why not give consideration to someone like Monton or Nagel so that your future criticisms of ID might go over better? I was interested in Nagel's argument, and consider it one of the better arguments against "materialism". I still think it flawed though, on two rather important grounds.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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One wonder if this entire thread is result of the fact that Meyer's _Darwin's Doubt_ has failed to deliver the death-blow to evolution that it promised. Paging P. T. Barnum, white courtesy phone. P. T. Barnum, white courtesy phone.LarTanner
September 17, 2013
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Brent:
I really would just like a simple response to this: If man is the source of the moral law, then man governs the moral law, and the moral law doesn’t govern man. Is this not true? If we are its creator, we are its master.
You've got an equivocation in there, between collective "men" and individual "men". Let me rephrase what you have said in a form in which I think it holds true: If human societies are the source of the moral law, then human societies govern the moral law, and the moral law governs members of those societies. In other words, human societies create moral laws, and members of those societies both contribute to them and are subject to them.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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