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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
'It indicates that we live in a fairly narrow window, certainly.' Love the emphatic 'certainly'!!! you're too generous, Elizabeth. I bet Penrose and his fussy mathematicky ilk doesn't deserve it.Axel
September 18, 2013
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Then there is the problem that there is no means by which to falsify any claim about what RM & NS are capable of producing. What are the theoretical limiations of RM & NS? How is that RM & NS can explain both divergent and convergent evolution, evolutionary stasis and rapid transition, low and high birth rates, complex and simple organisms, gain and loss of features? How can any serious scientific theory predict both X, and not-X?
IF you took the time to really read serious discussions of evolutionary theory you'd realise how intently some of these issues have been debated and what a struggle it has been for there to arise a consensus regarding them. You can't just stand on the outside and declaim: I don't understand it!
The idea that “natural” and “random” forces (meaning undirected by foresighted intelligence) can create the most sophisticated, complex, interdependent code-based manufacturing and self-regulation system ever seen, and by chance generate novel, functional, integrated form and function that requires the spontaneous, happenstance generation of thousands of perfectly fitted parts and modifications to current architecture and code, is horrendously stupid. There is absolutely no reason in any of the data to think that unaided natural and chance interactions can spontaneously generate such things.
I don't see how an argument from ignorance proves your point.
But, that is the ideological necessity that all factual evidence is interpreted to fulfill, as Lewontin admitted, no matter how counter-intuitive or absurd it is on the face of it. That is blind ideology masquerading as scientific inference and conclusion, and that is what is laughable and not worthy of serious debate until there is even a smidgen of substantive evidence that “chance” and “nature” are remotely capable of such accomplishments.
What you fail to understand or acknowledge is that every single aspect of evolutionary theory has been debated and fought over by people working in the field ever since the idea was first proposed. You stand on the outside, not aware of all the debates and you can't understand the reasoning. You need to do some work and read some research and FIND OUT why the consensus has got to where it is now. It's not all just made up and cobbled together.Jerad
September 18, 2013
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KF, there is nothing on my site that is any worse that what is regularly tolerated on this one. I am not ashamed of my site, the rules are clear, and as long as people do not break the few ban-worthy ones (which have nothing to do with the content of arguments) anyone is welcome to post, and opportunities to post an OP are in general granted on request. You are welcome to post one yourself, as I have said many times. But it is one of the principles of my site that comments are neither edited nor deleted, unless they contain illegal content. Nothing posted there comes close to legal slander, and frankly comes way short of the aspersions that are regularly cast on the moral and intellectual integrity of me and others on this site.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Oh, Elizabeth, you're self-defeating again. We should just hand this whole blog over to you for your idiosyncratic discursions. You make Hamlet seem like Horatio. Laertes, in fact. 'What seems highly likely is that the observable universe is a tiny proportion of the whole. So we don’t even know how many “sub-atomic particles” there are in the whole. The Seth-Lloyd bit estimate btw, was based on the observable universe.' I believe they are fairly confident that the observable universe is a tiny proportion of the whole. But that would hardly render the number of sub-atomic particles in our known universe with its trillions of galaxies, negligible!!! 'So much of what is wrong with ID arguments revolves trying to calculate odds without a value for the denominator.' We don't try to calculate odds with or without a value for a denominator. We leave it to expert physicists and mathematicians. The following is from the beginning of the Chapter entitled, Entropy, in the book; What your Atheist Professor Doesn't Know (but Should): 'Amazingly, our universe was at its minimum entropy at the very beginning, which begs the question, "how did it get so orderly?" Looking just at the initial entropy conditions, what is the likelihood of a universe supportive of life coming into existence by coincidence? One in billions of billions? Or trillions of trillions? Or more? Roger Penrose, a famous British mathematician and a close friend of Stephen hawking, wondered about this question and tried to calculate the probability of the initial entropy conditions of the Big Bang. According to Penrose, the odds against such an occurrence were of the order of 1 in 10 to the power of 10 to the power of 123. It is so large that it's hard even to imagine what this number means. We can use "superscript" (I can't) to indicate the order of magnitude, but we'd need "super-superscript" to properly write the "123" following it. In math, the value 10 to the 123rd power means one followed by 123 zeros. This is, by the way, more than the total number of atoms[10 to the 79th power] believed to exist in the whole (known) universe. But Penrose's answer is vastly more than this: It requires 1 followed by 10 to the power of 123 zeros. .... if there are six zeros, it's called a million, if nine, a billion; if twelve, a trillion and so on. There is not even a name for a number that has 1 followed by 10 to the 123rd power zeros. In practical terms, in probability theory.odds of less than1 in 10 to the fiftieth power = "zero probability". Penrose's number is more than a trillion. trillion, trillion times less than that. In short, Penrose's number tells us that the "accidental" or "coincidental" creation of our universe is an impossibility. Concerning this mind-boggling number, Roger Penrose comments: This is how precise the Creator's aim must have been, namely, to to an accuracy of one part in 10 to the 10 to the power of 123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full in the ordinary denary notation: it would be 1 followed by 10 to the power of 123 successive 0's. Even if we were to write a 0 on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire (known) universe - and we could throw in all the other particles for good measure - we would fall short of the figure needed.' Makes my 33/1 shot the other day seem very small beer. Anyway, Elizabeth, if only as a public service, I'm sure you'll be able to set Professor Penrose straight about denominator, and his whole house of cards will come crashing down.Axel
September 18, 2013
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No, that is not a "translation", Upright Biped. You can read your own posts in that first thread, and look at the rules, and see where you violated them, as I pointed out in the thread. You did exactly as you are doing here, which was to repeatedly cast doubt on other people's good faith. That is against the game rules at TSZ. Possibly you don't even know you are doing it. I don't especially mind, but I set up TSZ to try to provide a space where we could temporarily shelve mutual suspicion of motives so as to help drill down to the actual differences of opinion. And no, I don't think that "elzinga, thorton, flint and the others" were "just following your lead" and I didn't say so. But given that I was giving leeway to you, I also gave leeway elsewhere. Then I started a new thread, under "Penguin Rules". I am not the slightest bit afraid of arguments, and had I been loathe to engage with you I'd scarcely have started several threads on your theory so that we could continue the conversation. So your "translation" doesn't even fit the objective evidence. The problem, it seems to me, is that you are so persuaded of the validity of your own argument that you have lost any sense that it is possible that other people might honestly disagree (whether rightly or wrongly), and assume that anyone who offers a counter-argument is doing so dishonestly. And perhaps forget that this assumption becomes very transparent in the language that you use. You are very welcome to post a new OP at TSZ, and I will do my best to moderate it as strictly as I can. At least I am slightly clearer now as to where at least some of the miscommunication has arisen.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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EL: Drop the pretence. This is not a college seminar room, save maybe one where censorship and back-knifing are being plotted. You have become host for vicious slander, false accusations of fraud, and conspiracy theorising about an imagined theocratic neonazi totalitarian plot. All in a context where the simple inductive logic of the inference to design cannot be squarely faced, and where you have made up strawman caricatures to hide the fact that evolutionary materialist origins stories have not got an observation-backed chance and necessity dynamic to account for origin of cell based life and body plans, as has been made evident by the ducking and dodging over the past year. I have no interest whatsoever to try to clean up the fever swamp you have cultivated. It is you as blog owner who needs to set the minimum standard that slander and other forms of incivility are not reasonable discussion. As it is, you patently have no intention to clean up the fever swamp stinking of hate, bigotry and false accusations. I simply acknowledge the fact that it is of the ilk of several similar sites and think Null's description of a shared culture tells me this is a fighting brand front operation. Good cop bad cop game over, all the enablers are irretrievably tainted with the incivility they enabled. Welcome to your first tour of shame, for dishonourable conduct unbecoming. I hope you have enough sensitivity left in your conscience to be deeply ashamed. If you do, that would be a glimmer of hope. GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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382 Translation: I didn't like that you came to my house and backed Reciprocating Bill into a concession without calling him names or resorting to vulgar language. I also didn't like it that I had to agree with your terms and observations. So I'm going to pretend that you started all the nastiness from the very start, and that elzinga, thorton, flint and the others were just following your lead. That way, I can say I've never heard an ID argument of any merit.Upright BiPed
September 18, 2013
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Axel:
‘That’s what the available data indicates; that our universe is fine-tuned for life. It indicates that we live in a fairly narrow window, certainly. But there’s no terribly good reason to think that it’s the only window that exists.’ FAIRLY NARROW window, William!!! ROFL! Elizabeth, this kind of infinitesimally small approximation of the truth often seems to slip through people’s radar, though it’s very much part of your stock-in-trade.
Whats the problem, Axel?
Correct me if I’m wrong about the latter. It’s just that the odds against the coincidence of that range of fine-tuning are so huge they are effectively notional. Something like a much vaster number than there are sub-atomic particles in the universe, I believe.
My entire point, Axel, is that we have no way of calculating those odds. So much of what is wrong with ID arguments revolves trying to calculate odds without a value for the denominator. What seems highly likely is that the observable universe is a tiny proportion of the whole. So we don't even know how many "sub-atomic particles" there are in the whole. The Seth-Lloyd bit estimate btw, was based on the observable universe. And we don't know how many universes there are, nor what other values pertain in those universes. There might be only one, or there might be many. But there doesn't seem any particularly good reason to assume there is only one, and some evidence to support the idea of more. It could be wrong, of course, but what is weird is the scoffing that goes on here at any mention of more than one universe. Most people don't seem to be terribly aware that even if there is only only, it is almost certainly far larger than the bit we can observe.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Well, they are not moral prescriptions, Axel. And I don't have time to read every post, so reminders have to do the job a lot of the time.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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'... but those are the rules, nonetheless, and I encourage posters to stick to them.' ...sounds like the liberal Christian's Decalogue: The Ten Suggestions.Axel
September 18, 2013
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'That’s what the available data indicates; that our universe is fine-tuned for life. It indicates that we live in a fairly narrow window, certainly. But there’s no terribly good reason to think that it’s the only window that exists.' FAIRLY NARROW window, William!!! ROFL! Elizabeth, this kind of infinitesimally small approximation of the truth often seems to slip through people's radar, though it's very much part of your stock-in-trade. Correct me if I'm wrong about the latter. It's just that the odds against the coincidence of that range of fine-tuning are so huge they are effectively notional. Something like a much vaster number than there are sub-atomic particles in the universe, I believe.Axel
September 18, 2013
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No, of course I don't "forget that these conversations are recorded", Upright Biped, and I invite anyone interested to go and read it for themselves which must be pretty obvious from the fact that I kept on asking you to provide a link. Why would I do that if I didn't want people to read the originals? It was precisely to enable people to read the originals that I kept asking you for links! There was certainly a rule-violation by Mike of the house rules in the new thread before you posted in it, and I should have picked that up, because I had said very specifically that it was a "Penguin Rules" thread. And the reason I did so was that you, Upright Biped, had repeatedly violated the Penguin Rules in the previous thread, and I had largely ignored the violations, because I wanted the conversation to continue, and also, therefore, ignored violations by others. So the Penguin Rules thread was supposed to be a fresh start for all, which is why I reminded you of the rules. Which are simple: assume the other posters are posting in good faith (which therefore means do not imply that other posters are lying, or have ulterior motives). I generally moderate with a light-ish hand, and sometimes issue reminders rather than move posts, but those are the rules, nonetheless, and I encourage posters to stick to them.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Dr Liddle at 307, Your attempted pretense (of merely a single violation of your house rules) does nothing whatsoever to change the record - as anyone can easily tell from my post at 194. I sometimes wonder if you simply forget that these conversations are recorded, or just count on that fact that few will go back and actually look, or simply don't give a shit. - - - - - - - - - If any more UD regulars wonder why a few of us simply can no longer buy your polite granny routine, they needn't look any further.Upright BiPed
September 18, 2013
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WJM:
Initially, what I suggest is creating social-media friendly graphics with relatively short memes attached, which can be easily uploaded and shared. The following are some that I’m working on. I’m open to suggestions and corrections: ATHEISM is the belief that the finely-tuned fundamental properties of the universe that allow intelligent life to exist is nothing more than coincidence. ATHEISM is the belief that advanced, highly complex, precision nanotechnology can be created by the magic of chance. ATHEISM is the belief that logic is subjective. ATHEISM is the belief that truth is subjective. ATHEISM is the belief that we do not have free will. ATHEISM is the belief that “good” is relative. ATHEISM is the belief no act is intrinsically wrong or evil – not even torture. DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution. DARWINISM is the belief that PEDOPHILIA is just another naturally-occurring attraction. DARWINISM holds that Hitler and Mother Teresa were moral equals. ATHEISM is the belief that, if you can get away with it, there is no downside to harming others for personal gain. ATHEISM is the belief that humans are not endowed with unalienable rights. ATHEISM is the belief that murdering and cannibalizing a human is not intrinsically any different from killing and eating a cow. People killed by ATHEISTIC regimes in the last century: 153 million. People killed by THEISTIC regimes in 20 previous centuries: 5-10 million. Religious THEISTS have been scientifically shown to live longer, happier, healthier lives than ATHEISTS. THEISTS invented all currently employed scientific principles and methodology. THEISTS made and catalogued virtually all major scientific discoveries. THEISTS founded virtually all currrent hospital and university systems. RELIGION provided the funding, training and infrastructure for virtually all early scientific progress. There are thousands of RELIGIOUS charities. There are only a handful of ATHEISTIC charities. MATERIALISM, the broader philosophy of ATHEISM, was disproven decades ago by easily reproduced quantum physics experiments. Several NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING scientists have asserted that life after death has been scientifically proven. DARWINISM is a victorian-age, anti-theistic fable that if you put random errors in the blueprint code for arms long enough, you’ll get fully functioning wings and an entire body redesigned to sustain flight.
It doesn't bother you that most of these are downright false, and the remainder, at best, grossly misleading?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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KF:
EL, I hate to be direct but that is a brazen lie. You are currently enabling unsubstantiated and ill founded false accusations of fraud, theocratic totalitarian neo-nazi conspiracies and other poisonous and bigoted lies fully equivalent to racism.
No more, and I suggest considerably less, than is done here. I have offered you free right of reply to anything you object to, including posting permissions for an OP. I believe in dialogue, not suppression, and I do not think anything posted on my site is a lie. It may not be true, but that is different from a lie. Similarly there are numerous allegations in this thread alone that, in my view, are untrue. I do not call them lies because I think they are likely to be made in good faith. Nonetheless I try to put the counter view. You are welcome to do so at my site.
Those are public facts. Worse, the immediate context in which this is happening is one of censorship and career busting in the academy so the false accusations are a part of blame the victim turnabout false accusation stereotyping and scapegoating. Pretending to be a good cop hosting polite dialogue while in fact this is what is going on on a blog you founded and own, simply tells us that you are the good cop enabler in a good cop bad cop toxic manipulation game. As I said already, were you to try these tactics in my living room, which is private, you would for cause be instructed to leave and never return. YOU ARE DOING THIS IN PUBLIC. Your behaviour is one of hosting defamation. Trying to toss out dismissals and blame the victim immoral equivalencies simply compounds the wrong.GEM of TKI
I have been personally defamed in this very thread, not least, as a liar, right now, in your own post. I defend your right to do so. I defend the rights of posters on my blog to write what they believe to be the truth, whether or not what they write is true. And I do not lie.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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WJM
You were talking about fitting models to data; what data do we have of other universes? we have of other universes? Can we observe them? Have we collected any data from them? What is the point of hypothesizing such infinite universes? What “problem” does the hypothesis solves?
The data are those we gather from the observable universe, which present a number of problems, some of which may, or may not, be solved by theories in which multiple universes are posited. We do not have to observe phenomena directly to have support for the hypothesis that they exist. Indeed most phenomena are not directly observable.
You see, the reason the heliocentric theory was proposed was because it solved problems in the data that didn’t comport with the geocentric model, problems that kept mounting and for which a more and more Rube-Goldberg-esque theory of Geocentrism had to be constructed.
Right. And there are equivalent problems with the current cosmological model, not least the problem that we are necessarily bang in the middle of the observable part, and so the vast bulk of it is highly likely to be in the unobservable part. This means that we cannot necessarily extrapolate from this part to other parts, and inflation, for instance, which occurred in our part, may not have happened in the same way in other parts, hence Alan Guth's theory of Eternal Inflation. It may well be wrong, but there is no a priori reason to reject it, and it is certainly not motivated by a desire to get out of god, but a desire to get a better model. Here is a news article from 2011, on evidence to support the eternal inflation model, from WMAP data.
Why? Because geocentrism was a worldview, an a priori commitment through which models were designed in order to explain the data in terms of the predominant worldview. What “problems with the data” is multiverse theory an attempt to solve? Hawking flat out said in his book that he was solving the problem of the fine-tuning we find in our universe. How is the apparent fine-tuning of our universe a “problem that needs to be solved” at all, much less solved with something so ridiculous as a “infinite universes from nothing” hypothesis.
Why don't you actually read some of the physics?
You see, the fine-tuning of our universe is only a problem to atheistic ideology because it implies our universe had a designing fine-tuner. That the fundamental constants of our universe are finely-tuned doesn’t create problems for any scientific models; it only creates a problem for an ideological model – the one that holds that it is “hubris” to think that our universe is, in fact, finely tuned to support life. That’s what the available data indicates; that our universe is fine-tuned for life.
It indicates that we live in a fairly narrow window, certainly. But there's no terribly good reason to think that it's the only window that exists.
That many scientist ideologically disagree with the implications of that fact of data drives them to concoct all sorts of theories there is no evidence for just to protect their failing worldview.
This is your ignorant assertion, William. You freely admit you do not have the math to evaluate these theories, but you nonetheless assume that there is no good math, just ideological blinkers. You have very little idea of the problems that cosmologists are trying to solve, so you just assume that they are trying to avoid confronting a divine creator. Even though some of them are devout theists.
Your use of the term “hubris” reveals your a priori, ideological commitment.
No, it doesn't. It reveals some experience of thinking things are obviously false, then finding that there is actually good data to support them.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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ou are being rudely sophomoric and disrespectful.
Thank you. Yet I was quite polite as a freshman.
Maybe it has not dawned on you that beyond the horizon where recessional velocity per Hubble expansion of space itself hits c, there is no observability.
Irrelevant to my point. EL at 371 does a nice job of providing useful information. You should follow her model.
Also, speculative other universes are unobservable. At this point cosmology slips across into the philosophy dept, too often without notice or recognition. In phil, no one view gets to set the rules for others, especially on grounds like, well we wear lab coats and hold our qualifications in the physical sciences.
Your last statement is a classic expression of passive-aggressive penis envy.
Hawking’s speculations and those of the gentlemen confusing themselves over what nothing is come to mind as examples of the problems.
Feel free to write them long letters demonstrating the utter clarity of your mind and worldview.LarTanner
September 18, 2013
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EL, I hate to be direct but that is a brazen lie. You are currently enabling unsubstantiated and ill founded false accusations of fraud, theocratic totalitarian neo-nazi conspiracies and other poisonous and bigoted lies fully equivalent to racism. Those are public facts. Worse, the immediate context in which this is happening is one of censorship and career busting in the academy so the false accusations are a part of blame the victim turnabout false accusation stereotyping and scapegoating. Pretending to be a good cop hosting polite dialogue while in fact this is what is going on on a blog you founded and own, simply tells us that you are the good cop enabler in a good cop bad cop toxic manipulation game. As I said already, were you to try these tactics in my living room, which is private, you would for cause be instructed to leave and never return. YOU ARE DOING THIS IN PUBLIC. Your behaviour is one of hosting defamation. Trying to toss out dismissals and blame the victim immoral equivalencies simply compounds the wrong.GEM of TKIkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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Small improvements and variations on portrait of Dawkins here and here.Box
September 18, 2013
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I'm a little bit unclear on what work is being done by the metaphor of "fine-tuning." I do think that the basic laws of physics in this universe, and the value of the basic physical constants, are strongly "biased" towards life. In fact, I would expect that life is widespread throughout the universe, though much of it is likely to be uninteresting and beyond the range of our ability to travel or communicate. That said, I'm not really clear on what makes this fact (if it is a fact) a problem, or how we would recognize a solution to it, one way or the other.Kantian Naturalist
September 18, 2013
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LT: You are being rudely sophomoric and disrespectful. Maybe it has not dawned on you that beyond the horizon where recessional velocity per Hubble expansion of space itself hits c, there is no observability. Also, speculative other universes are unobservable. At this point cosmology slips across into the philosophy dept, too often without notice or recognition. In phil, no one view gets to set the rules for others, especially on grounds like, well we wear lab coats and hold our qualifications in the physical sciences. Hawking's speculations and those of the gentlemen confusing themselves over what nothing is come to mind as examples of the problems. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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KF:
EL, I have not forgotten that you are now hosting a hate- slander- and conspiracy theory- fest and are showing yourself the god cop enabling partner of a bad cop game.
I am doing no such thing, KF. Sure, some people have conspiracy theories about the ID movement, but then people have conspiracy theories about "Darwinists" too, as is evident in this thread alone. What I enable is dialogue.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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Brent:
WHAT DATA!!! You already have said that we can’t even observe our very own universe to its edges! And you expect to say it is scientific to suggest that there are other universes??? If we can’t even observe fully our own universe, what data can Hawking and ilk have? They have nothing but an uncomfortable conscience and an ideology driven metaphysical leap of blind faith.
Data from the WMAP, for instance, or the LHC. Like William, you seem to think scientists just sit around idly dreaming up stories that will get them out of going to church, instead of constructing testable predictive models. I don't know whether multiverse theory is likely to be true or not, or, if it is, which one is the better model (there are many). But the fact that we can't observe them directly is no reason to throw out the theory - many things cannot be observed directly, yet the hypothesis that they exist is highly predictive. There's a nice article making that point here. Scoffing at scientific ideas because they defy "common sense" has a long history of hubris. Look at the quantum physics BA77 posts about - none of it passes the common sense smell test. Yet it makes superb predictions. That's the only test of the a validity scientific theory : whether it makes predictions that are supported by new data. Whether you like the story it tells is utterly irrelevant to its validity.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 18, 2013
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F/N: As the shoals of red herrings are slip-sliding away from the central issues . . . EL, I have not forgotten that you are now hosting a hate- slander- and conspiracy theory- fest and are showing yourself the god cop enabling partner of a bad cop game. In that context, it is entirely in order for us to draw some pretty stark conclusions, and take appropriate action. I say this, because it is now highly evident that TSZ is a "fighting brand" set up to counter UD, and serves as a relatively respectable -- things are THAT bad -- front for the utterly scurrilous AtBC. You should be seriously ashamed for what you have been doing and enabling. I am quite sure you can do better, a LOT better. KFkairosfocus
September 18, 2013
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If we can’t even observe fully our own universe, what data can Hawking and ilk have?
Brilliant. Let's just assume no data at all exists. No need to do homework, go directly to the knee of Jesus.LarTanner
September 18, 2013
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I expect nirwad would adjudge as merely 'ynomisrap' to the power of infinity.Axel
September 18, 2013
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I can't imagine how Elizabeth will respond to that, but she will.... she will. And if you're not darned careful so will KN! I tell you: it's mad-house, WJ.Axel
September 18, 2013
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What “problems with the data” is multiverse theory an attempt to solve? Hawking flat out said in his book that he was solving the problem of the fine-tuning we find in our universe. How is the apparent fine-tuning of our universe a “problem that needs to be solved” at all, much less solved with something so ridiculous as a “infinite universes from nothing” hypothesis.
Hawking's grand foray to damn parsimony.TSErik
September 18, 2013
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Brent: do you think that the observable universe is the limit of the entire universe? If not, do you accept that the universe is probably many orders of magnitude larger than the observable universe?
You were talking about fitting models to data; what data do we have of other universes? Can we observe them? Have we collected any data from them? What is the point of hypothesizing such infinite universes? What "problem" does the hypothesis solves? You see, the reason the heliocentric theory was proposed was because it solved problems in the data that didn't comport with the geocentric model, problems that kept mounting and for which a more and more Rube-Goldberg-esque theory of Geocentrism had to be constructed. Why? Because geocentrism was a worldview, an a priori commitment through which models were designed in order to explain the data in terms of the predominant worldview. What "problems with the data" is multiverse theory an attempt to solve? Hawking flat out said in his book that he was solving the problem of the fine-tuning we find in our universe. How is the apparent fine-tuning of our universe a "problem that needs to be solved" at all, much less solved with something so ridiculous as a "infinite universes from nothing" hypothesis. You see, the fine-tuning of our universe is only a problem to atheistic ideology because it implies our universe had a designing fine-tuner. That the fundamental constants of our universe are finely-tuned doesn't create problems for any scientific models; it only creates a problem for an ideological model - the one that holds that it is "hubris" to think that our universe is, in fact, finely tuned to support life. That's what the available data indicates; that our universe is fine-tuned for life. That many scientist ideologically disagree with the implications of that fact of data drives them to concoct all sorts of theories there is no evidence for just to protect their failing worldview. Your use of the term "hubris" reveals your a priori, ideological commitment.William J Murray
September 18, 2013
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EL said:
I don’t mind whether multiverse theory is undermined or not, Brent.
You are too predictable. I knew you'd say that.
If multiverse theory fits the data well, great. If not, great
WHAT DATA!!! You already have said that we can't even observe our very own universe to its edges! And you expect to say it is scientific to suggest that there are other universes??? If we can't even observe fully our own universe, what data can Hawking and ilk have? They have nothing but an uncomfortable conscience and an ideology driven metaphysical leap of blind faith.Brent
September 18, 2013
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