Uncommon Descent Serving The Intelligent Design Community

Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

Categories
Intelligent Design
Share
Facebook
Twitter/X
LinkedIn
Flipboard
Print
Email

An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
It seems to me that by shifting the argument from the 'science' of ID to a supposed culture war ID proponents can avoid dealing with the lack of a coherent ID hypothesis and draw attention away from the lack of hard evidence and research that supports their view. By utilising the politics of fear and the power of nightmares the ID community is attempting to rally the troops so they don't lose interest and/or give up hope. They portray those of us who disagree with them as 'enemies' who want to destroy their 'culture'. This is plainly absurd. I'm thinking of the typical argument: atheists don't believe in absolute morals so what's to stop them from rampaging, raping and pillaging? Anyone who thinks they need God and his threats of fire and brimstone to prevent anarchy has a real authoritarian issue they need to deal with. AND, if there is no God, then how did we get to the relatively high level of civilisation and technical expertise we all enjoy? IF ID is going to gain any real scientific traction then it needs to find some evidence, do some research and decide what it is really all about. You can't just keep living on: because we don't think unguided, natural processes aren't up to the job we think a designer did it. No one can even say WHEN design was implemented!! Stop playing the fear card and get to work.Jerad
September 17, 2013
September
09
Sep
17
17
2013
02:21 AM
2
02
21
AM
PDT
This attempt by William to stir up enmity where none exists is discreditable, IMO.
'Stir up enmity where none exists'? The 'enmity' has been there since likely before the founding of After The Bar Closes - you know, the little hate site where you and the regulars wallow in your own filth as you slime others cheerfully? You seem to think, Elizabeth, that so long as you're all smiles and sunshine (God, tell us the one again about how you 'believe in God - just with two O's, teehee!') on more obviously public forums, that you're a nice, fair, well-meaning individual - and your cooperation with, cheering on, and general tolerance of people doing everything from slinging homophobic slurs to defacing public pictures to more, of the very people you're trying to have a discussion with is somehow excused. It doesn't. It makes you two-faced. And your tendency to reinvent definitions on the fly whenever you find your back to the wall in an argument - which is damn often - coupled with your habitual dishonest representation of yourself and your opponents' arguments, doesn't exactly do much to smack down the charges of intellectual dishonesty.
Nothing in that post at TSZ approaches the regular vitriol that is posted daily here at UD against “Darwinists”.
Not only is that false, but when compared to AtBC - which is connected with TSZ - it is *laughably* false. Once again: the fact that you blast out the ascii smiley faces like they were going out of style in some forums, and that you can cherry pick particular moments of (in context, what is quite reasonably regarded as feigned) civility, doesn't erase that. "From my PoV", William is correct in his summing up of TSZ's culture, and I'd apply it to AtBC as well. There is no shortage of atheists, agnostics, ID skeptics and otherwise with whom civilized debate on these and various religious and philosophical topics is worthwhile. You, and most of the lot at TSZ, do not make the cut. Now, this is the part where you stammer, 'I'm sorry you feel that way, Nullasalus. :(', say your recollection is otherwise, and yammer off another set of nonsense. But do me a favor - try not to make claims like 'Stirring up enmity where none exists', when it's trivial to see otherwise with a simple trip to Google. If you had any arguments or observations that were powerful - if that was what you really cared about, ultimately - your lot wouldn't resort to the hate and encouragement of hate you do on a regular basis.nullasalus
September 17, 2013
September
09
Sep
17
17
2013
02:13 AM
2
02
13
AM
PDT
This OP is ridiculous. Nothing in that post at TSZ approaches the regular vitriol that is posted daily here at UD against "Darwinists". More to the point, the rules at TSZ are simple and any ID proponent is welcome to post, as are people of all faiths and none. By no means all the regulars at TSZ are even atheists. This is largely a phoney war, whose only "real" dimension is the specific church-state separation debate in the US. My site hosts that debate as well as more interesting (to my mind) debates about science and philosophy. This attempt by William to stir up enmity where none exists is discreditable, IMO. To assert that one's arguments have not been refuted is simply to assert that one has not been persuaded of any error in one's argument. From my PoV, William has not presented a persuasive argument, nor has he mounted any persuasive rebuttal of any argument he has attempted to refute. But his view clearly differs. That's why we try to debate.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
September
09
Sep
17
17
2013
01:42 AM
1
01
42
AM
PDT
F/N: Gregory has ignored the relevant history on the founding of modern science. Let's set him straight -- cf. here [an article by a noted scholar] -- and see if he has any sense of duty to evident truth. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
September
09
Sep
17
17
2013
01:08 AM
1
01
08
AM
PDT
Gregory: Stop enabling by playing good cop in cahoots with bad cop. When people are being subjected to a hate-fest of lies meant to polarise, hurt, marginalise and harm, that is slander. That has been happening at any number of hostile blogs for years, but now the sheep's clothing has been dropped at TSZ, and the wolfish ravening is obvious for all to see. I notice you have had nothing to say by way of reply on the merits to the refutation of the right-wing neo-nazi Christo-fascist theocracy smear here. All you have is superficial, sneering dismissals and enabling reflecting a thinly veiled hostility, contempt and smugness. That want of substance tells us all we need to know, given what has happened above in this thread and what is going on at TSZ. You have just told us all we need to know about you. That smear you have enabled -- one based on twisting the so-called wedge document into pretzels -- is plainly driving all sorts of hostility, hate, lies, false accusations that those making them do or should know better than, and more. You are enabling that slander-, bigotry- and hate fest that has been going on at TSZ. SHAME ON YOU! Go take a long look in the mirror, then think again and do better. A lot better. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
September
09
Sep
17
17
2013
01:03 AM
1
01
03
AM
PDT
You actually believe in 'memes,' WJM, which were coined by a 'Darwinist'? Wow, there is some seriously messed-up thinking and feeling in this thread. Talk about fringe IDism. KF throws around the word 'slander' like pennies to bottles in a fair. What's funniest to me of WJM's proposed 'memes' for the New Look UD is this one: "THEISTS invented all currently employed scientific principles and methodology." Then I guess you should stop using the term 'memes,' eh, cuz it was 'invented' by an atheist! :PGregory
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
11:19 PM
11
11
19
PM
PDT
MATERIALISM is invented by BLIND CHEMICAL REACTIONS. MATERIALISM is the belief that we as persons DON'T EXISTBox
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
07:51 PM
7
07
51
PM
PDT
Initially, what I suggest is creating social-media friendly graphics with relatively short memes attached, which can be easily uploaded and shared. The following are some that I'm working on. I'm open to suggestions and corrections: ATHEISM is the belief that the finely-tuned fundamental properties of the universe that allow intelligent life to exist is nothing more than coincidence. ATHEISM is the belief that advanced, highly complex, precision nanotechnology can be created by the magic of chance. ATHEISM is the belief that logic is subjective. ATHEISM is the belief that truth is subjective. ATHEISM is the belief that we do not have free will. ATHEISM is the belief that "good" is relative. ATHEISM is the belief no act is intrinsically wrong or evil - not even torture. DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is simply another naturally-selected means of genetic distribution. DARWINISM is the belief that PEDOPHILIA is just another naturally-occurring attraction. DARWINISM holds that Hitler and Mother Teresa were moral equals. ATHEISM is the belief that, if you can get away with it, there is no downside to harming others for personal gain. ATHEISM is the belief that humans are not endowed with unalienable rights. ATHEISM is the belief that murdering and cannibalizing a human is not intrinsically any different from killing and eating a cow. People killed by ATHEISTIC regimes in the last century: 153 million. People killed by THEISTIC regimes in 20 previous centuries: 5-10 million. Religious THEISTS have been scientifically shown to live longer, happier, healthier lives than ATHEISTS. THEISTS invented all currently employed scientific principles and methodology. THEISTS made and catalogued virtually all major scientific discoveries. THEISTS founded virtually all currrent hospital and university systems. RELIGION provided the funding, training and infrastructure for virtually all early scientific progress. There are thousands of RELIGIOUS charities. There are only a handful of ATHEISTIC charities. MATERIALISM, the broader philosophy of ATHEISM, was disproven decades ago by easily reproduced quantum physics experiments. Several NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING scientists have asserted that life after death has been scientifically proven. DARWINISM is a victorian-age, anti-theistic fable that if you put random errors in the blueprint code for arms long enough, you'll get fully functioning wings and an entire body redesigned to sustain flight.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
06:48 PM
6
06
48
PM
PDT
Bruce, my comment really wasn't in response to your analysis. If you want to promote sticking to empirical facts, then I'm all for it. If you've watched many of my comments over the past years here, then you'll see I hardly drive the conversation towards anything else. For what it's worth, I don't think WJM is a content-free vulgar bastard and I would be surprised to see him seriously advocate anyone else be a content-free vulgar basterd. I think the thrust of his comments are limited in who they apply to, and are generally in the appropriate direction. If I stop to read this whole thread and see otherwise, I'll say so. Until that point, I'll probably disregard those who overreact to the typical frustration someone feels after being mocked and ignored over empirical facts.Upright BiPed
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
05:25 PM
5
05
25
PM
PDT
DB: If they come in my front door for my wife and children (they have made threats, remember and I cannot totally rule that out . . . ), it will be over my dead body. But that is not the main idea, as has been outlined above. Start with the 7 - 8" tablet PC, multiply by the broadband internet built through porn subscriptions that have enmeshed so many in the porn perv agenda. (BTW, that too is part of what is benumbing consciences and besotting minds. Its not just that mad man from Ohio.) Think about accessing an entire alternate education, and having access to solid news, views etc also. Bypassing the bastions of indoctrination and propaganda. Web fastnesses of truth, soundness and sense standing in the teeth of the rubbish, hate fests and fever swamps out there. Gradually growing as the sheer repulsiveness of evil exposes its true demonic nature. (Just cf that slander fest.) Sound education. And when attempts are made to censor or intimidate, they are rapidly exposed and countered. BSU, this means you. And even if the almost inevitable suit is won by the censors, it will be a hollow victory, for it will reveal the rot in two key institutions, the academy and the courts. Maybe, too the old line media. Building an alternative, starting from a force in being. Counter-culture. And BTW, prepare for hard, dark days ahead, on so many levels. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
05:15 PM
5
05
15
PM
PDT
KF, So what's your plan? Arm ourselves and shoot the bastards?Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
05:00 PM
5
05
00
PM
PDT
Upright BiPed, re. #135:
So, lets play nice. We wouldn’t want to offend anyone with empirical facts.
Did I say I was against invoking empirical facts? That is precisely what does work in intellectual debate. See #125 above.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:58 PM
4
04
58
PM
PDT
Box, Yes, there is a point to that, though deliberate flooding may have allowed a holdout bastion to form probably in the Scheldt, much as the corner of Belgium in WW I. in any case the point is, force in being, bastion, hold the line, then resurge. Holds for Kulturkampf too. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:58 PM
4
04
58
PM
PDT
#136 KF, you may judge my fellow countrymen too harshly. One look at the map should tell you that Holland stood no chance. The Germans just rolled their tanks in. Some obvious strategical disadvantages: no sea to protect us, and not even one mountain. On top of that the Germans didn't play nice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotterdam_Blitz .Box
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:43 PM
4
04
43
PM
PDT
Onlookers: Notice how no one above has been able to justify the accusations in the hate and slander fest over at TSZ? (You had better believe that if the darwin defenders thought they could justify the claims in an open forum, they would be swarming all over us. Instead they have taken any excuse to get out of Dodge city.) KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:41 PM
4
04
41
PM
PDT
Mung, ever heard of Hitler's order to shoot captured commandos, even those taken in uniform -- on a flimsy excuse? (I am happy to report that several of his henchmen faced a rope or a firing squad over that order, after due process.) KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:37 PM
4
04
37
PM
PDT
So, lets play nice. We wouldn’t want to offend anyone with empirical facts.
Guess I'll have to stop posting at TSZ.Mung
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:30 PM
4
04
30
PM
PDT
Uh huh. That's what happens when you don't preserve a solid force in being with bastions that cannot be taken. Holland was knocked out in a few days in 1940, too. Belgium took a few weeks, and France not much more -- and the casualties incurred only showed the magnitude of the defeat. It was Britain that stood, held because of Fighter Command, then was the bastion for the invasion that took W Europe back from Hitler. If you want an older case, Islamic forces swept through most of Spain in the early 700's. But, there were mountain fastnesses that held out. Slowly, they pushed back, finishing in 1491, and that is why in 1492 Chris Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Getting the picture? If an aggressive ideology does not hit hard resistance that stops it, it tends to sweep all before it, once it gains power to do so. Then it uses power to indoctrinate and brainwash. You are right about the power of unchecked ridicule and other agit prop techniques. In reply, hard resistance has to preserve a force in being that blunts the onslaught, then bleeds down the forces until a resurgence can be pushed. Old story. And, we had better get ready to do it again. (Notice, how -- suddenly -- I am not sounding like I am over the top, but instead realistic? I have not changed, just many who were formerly naive are seeing the true ruthless colours of what we are up against. I am sure a lot were buying the line that I was a half crazy whiner to protest invidious association with nazism. Now, we see from that TSZ thread with a hate fest probably still in progress, that this is how these folks have been indoctrinated to view us all. We are nazis, religious fanatics wanting to impose a theocracy, destroy science and more. So, why is it that I have a triple major undergrad sci-math degree and a grad degree in science? Because I hate science? The silly propaganda falls of its weight in the cold light of day, but in the intoxicating fever swamps with the drums pounding the party line and the blood-rage pounding in the heads things don't look that same way. [Any yup, it was the same way with the Marxists too, who were pumped full of propaganda they were convinced was THE TRUTH. But, there were un-crackable hard centres that held the line until Marxism cracked.) Here's the deal folks: They started the fight with sucker punches below the belt. We will finish it, and finish it with honour intact. The fallacies, question begging, agit prop and ruthless nihilism and bully boy attitudes and behaviour will be exposed. We will know that this is a case where we cannot compromise with people willing to lie, spread slanders, falsely accuse us of fraud, censor, but careers and worse. We are locked in a kulturkampf with a DISHONOURABLE ideology. Too many of even the nicest seeming are just enablers of evil, going along with a good cop bad cop game. The line needs to be drawn: if you are an enabler of dishonourable conduct, you too are dishonourable. No ifs, ands, buts or maybes. That may sound hard, but we did not throw the first punch and we are the ones who have been taking hits below the belt. And when you tried to out and threaten my family, that was a limit. I am not forgetting that, and what it tells me about you and your ilk. Just remember, in a few days now, it will have been a full year that darwinists were unable to seriously take up an open challenge to warrant your evolutionary materialist claims per observational evidence, for OOL and OO body plans, including the darwinist tree of life. That silence in response to a free kick at goal tells us all we need to know about the proud boasts and declarations. Bluff called folks, and the goods were not there to back it up. Let us remember that, going forward. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
04:14 PM
4
04
14
PM
PDT
So, lets play nice. We wouldn't want to offend anyone with empirical facts.Upright BiPed
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
03:31 PM
3
03
31
PM
PDT
Here in the Netherlands Europe all of the media and political parties (except one) are liberal, anti-religion (with the exception of islam, because of reasons of political correctness), leftist and of course pro-Darwinian. The average Dutchman hasn't even heard about intelligent design. The religious political parties are 'religious' only by name. They have nothing to say about Darwinism. Neither are there any TV-personalities who have anything to say about Darwinism. Over here Darwinism is no longer controversial ... From the '60 and onwards Christianity has been ridiculed into oblivion.Box
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
03:19 PM
3
03
19
PM
PDT
But that is not what we are talking about here. We are discussing situations in which two groups of people with different beliefs are debating in some forum, be it in a thread such as this or a public debate, and one group begins a venomous invective against the other, as you did in #54:
I don't think WJM was trying to persuade any onlookers with the observation he was making in that particular case. He was explaining his estimation of much of the TSZ crowd frankly.
There is no evidence that such tactics in a debate will ever change anyone’s mind other than to make them question the credibility of the person making the accusation.
Where is the evidence that this will "make them question the credibility of the person making the accusation"?
When a group is being demonized for propaganda purposes, it is essential that its members be cut off from the power to defend themselves publicly from the attacks. In other words, they must be prevented from having access to public media.
No, not really. Especially not nowadays, where 'the public media' is an increasingly fragmented spread of sources. And why is it essential? You've been making the claim that negative press just doesn't work because all nastiness ever does is make people dislike the person saying it. Also, narcissists never win political elections, because who would support a narcissist?nullasalus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
02:43 PM
2
02
43
PM
PDT
A follow-up to my post #131: When a group is being demonized for propaganda purposes, it is essential that its members be cut off from the power to defend themselves publicly from the attacks. In other words, they must be prevented from having access to public media. This is clearly not the case with Darwin defenders. If anything, the reverse is true. Darwinism critics are far more frequently denied access, as we all know.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
02:37 PM
2
02
37
PM
PDT
WJM, re. #128:
Did you ever see any WWII propaganda “commercials” at the movies? Do you think the brutal invective levied against the Japanese and the Germans didn’t sway public opinion significantly, or raise patriotic nationalism for the war effort?
Demonizing an outside group (or an inside group which is considered to be separate from the rest of the body politic, like the Jews in Germany prior to and during WWII) is one of the major techniques of effective propaganda. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are discussing situations in which two groups of people with different beliefs are debating in some forum, be it in a thread such as this or a public debate, and one group begins a venomous invective against the other, as you did in #54:
TSZ is nothing but a pitiful collection of anti-theistic, hate-filled swine run by a clever, polite enabler of civilization-destroying marxist, materialist darwinism.
There is no evidence that such tactics in a debate will ever change anyone's mind other than to make them question the credibility of the person making the accusation.
Do you think the invective parents or other figures of authority use against groups has no effect on children but to push the children away from their parents’ views?
Of course authority figures can have effects on the beliefs children. Go ahead, load your kids up with all the invective you please. You might not like the ultimate result, however.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
02:26 PM
2
02
26
PM
PDT
BD: Unfortunately, mutually question begging, atmosphere clouding, poisoning and polarising, mind closing fallacies such as we see aplenty in the TSZ slander fest are mutually reinforcing. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
02:01 PM
2
02
01
PM
PDT
Put more bluntly, I don’t believe that there is any evidence that nastiness changes anyone’s mind, except possibly to discredit its producer.
You don't think negative campaign ads produce the results desired many times in elections?nullasalus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
What you haven’t shown is that the portion of these acts that can be characterized a s venomous invective has any influence on what people believe.
Did you ever see any WWII propaganda "commercials" at the movies? Do you think the brutal invective levied against the Japanese and the Germans didn't sway public opinion significantly, or raise patriotic nationalism for the war effort? Do you think the invective parents or other figures of authority use against groups has no effect on children but to push the children away from their parents' views? You don't think that movies that give us a constant diet of invective against corporations or wealth move public opinion an inch in that direction? I don't consider it my job to make a case for what is obvious.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
01:59 PM
1
01
59
PM
PDT
WJM, re. #125:
An alleged scientific consensus painted out as such utilizing the very invective I speak of against those who believe otherwise, ruining careers, expelling actual skeptics and offering a curriculum that ridicules and marginalizes theists and non-Darwinists.
Yes, these things have been done, certainly. What you haven't shown is that the portion of these acts that can be characterized as venomous invective has any influence on what people believe. Put more bluntly, I don't believe that there is any evidence that nastiness changes anyone's mind, except possibly to discredit its producer.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
01:21 PM
1
01
21
PM
PDT
You haven’t made the case that the people who believe the party line regarding origins do so because of the venomous invective of other people on TSZ or elsewhere. It’s far more likely that they have bowed to the authority of the alleged scientific consensus, IMO.
An alleged scientific consensus painted out as such utilizing the very invective I speak of against those who believe otherwise, ruining careers, expelling actual skeptics and offering a curriculum that ridicules and marginalizes theists and non-Darwinists.William J Murray
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
12:49 PM
12
12
49
PM
PDT
WJM, re. #122:
Effective propaganda and marketing uses a multi-tiered approach that includes the 2×4 as well as the subtle. If you doubt it, just look at TSZ – it’s full of people that have bought the blatant dismissal and ridicule hook, line and sinker, and act as the cultural shock troops.
You haven't made the case that the people who believe the party line regarding origins do so because of the venomous invective of other people on TSZ or elsewhere. It's far more likely that they have bowed to the authority of the alleged scientific consensus, IMO. When I say that the truth will prevail in the end, the truth to which I refer is that the sublime, sophisticated, mind-numbingly complex engineering present in all living things simply could not have been the result of blind random natural processes, even if mediated by natural selection. This is intuitively obvious to anyone with an open mind on the question, and has been thoroughly supported by experimental evidence and mathematical analysis. This truth simply cannot be denied forever, and will eventually be openly acknowledged by the vast majority of scientists, and as a consequence, by the population at large. It's just a matter of time. And in fact, no one really knows how many scientists already accept this truth but are afraid to acknowledge it publicly. This will eventually change. The truth will out.Bruce David
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
12:32 PM
12
12
32
PM
PDT
We need a force in being strategy, and a growth strategy. the first level is that we need to put on the table the basic issues of reasoning and reasoning about experiential matters by induction. Science is under this. There is an important place for technical scientific work through research and analysis, empirical and theoretical. There is need to develop further articulate and project a soundly based common good sense persuasiv e case that can be gasp3ed by the man in the Clapham bus stop. In an informaiton age, it will be much easier, and the key case is the living cell as an entity that uses codes in DNA [thus language and symbols], step by step specific, goal oriented procedures [algorithms], and associated execution machinery. A key icon of design to be used is the Ribosome with the mRNA as control tape, making a new protein. That is a NC factory process unit. And this reeks of design tothe point that an ordinary man will see that no way is it plausible that this originated by chance and necessity, blindly, in some warm little pond. It helps that OOL is so serious a case that Darwin's defenders try to keep this off the table. Then, point out that this is the root of the tree of life the very first icon used by Darwin. No roots, no shoots and nothing else. Also, design is there from teh roots up so whatever happens thereafter it cannot be properly excluded. Body plans are more of the same. Notice, objectors have no answer tothis, they resort to all sorts of shenanigans to distract, polarise and poison. Notice also not a single appeal to any religious tradition. The attempt to conflate design with creationism is a lie and a smear built on an earlier smear of creationists. It will help to expose the a priori materialism used to bias what is allowed as science and pushed on kids in school. INDOCTRINATION driven by ideology. Then, we can show and expose the false accusations of theocracy for what hey are. Also, we can ask pointed questions about where evolutionary materialist secular humanism and fellow travellers lead. On history and on the issue of grounding principles of fairness and decency. The darwin defenders off in their fever swamps have no answer tothese and so they smear and try every species of Alinskyite distractor. Alinsky tactics need to be identified and exposed. Int his context tee shirts and hte like do play a role but the core issue is at common good sense level. It needs to be known that the core matters at stake are not he technobabble that glazes over people's eyes, but basics that are easy to follow and go directly to what is going on. Along the way, it needs to be highlighted that evo mat has serious and self refuting implicaitons for our ability to think, reason, make responsible decisions and more, leading to opening the door to manipulation, and nihilist thuggery. We need to ask what happens w3hen such get power, and point to cases around us now. Right now the case with the TSZ slander and hate fest where people spread poisonous lies they know or should know are utterly wrong and irresponsible, is a good ilustration. I assure you I would not want my children taught by toxic people like that. I would not want them reporting to such people at work. I would not want them standing before such in a court room. And I sure would not want such with a finger on the proverbial big red button. KFkairosfocus
September 16, 2013
September
09
Sep
16
16
2013
10:38 AM
10
10
38
AM
PDT
1 19 20 21 22 23 26