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Can We Afford To Be Charitable To Darwinists?

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An earlier thread here wondered which group (presumably, Darwinists or IDists/Creationists) was more charitable. At TSZ,  a rhetorical post full of anti-ID venom popped up asking if IDists “deserved” charity (as in, charitable interaction & debate).  (Previously, I would have provided a link to the TSZ post, but I’m no longer interested in “fair play”.)

I used to be one that diligently attempted to provide Darwinists charitable interaction.  I tried not to ridicule, demean, or use terms that would cause hurt or defensive feelings.  My hope was that reason, politely offered, would win the day.  My theistic perspective is that returning the bad behavior I received at sites like TSZ would be wrong on my part.  I thought I should stick to politely producing logical and evidence-based exchanges, regardless of what Darwinists did. I note that several others here at UD do the same.  Lately, however, I’ve come to the conclusion that what I’m attempting to do is the equivalent of bringing a knife to a gun fight; polite reasoning with Darwinists, for the most part, is simply setting up our own failure.  It’s like entering a war zone with rules of engagement that effectively undermine a soldier’s capacity to adequately defend themselves, let alone win a war.  While pacifism is a laudable idea, it does not win wars. It simply gives the world to the barbarians.

And that’s the problem; a lot of us don’t realize we’re in a war, a war where reason, truth, religion and spirituality is under direct assault by the post-modern equivalent of barbarians.  They, for the most part, have no compunction about lying, misleading, dissembling, attacking, blacklisting, ridiculing, bullying and marginalizing; more than that, they have no problem using every resource at their means, legal or not, polite or not, reasonable or not, to destroy theism, and in particular Christianity (as wells as conservative/libertarian values in general).  They have infiltrated the media, academia and the entertainment industry and use their influence to generate narratives with complete disregard for the truth, and entirely ignore even the most egregious barbarism against those holding beliefs they disagree with.

Wars are what happen when there is no common ground between those that believe in something worth fighting for.  There is no common ground between the universal post-modern acid of materialist Darwinism and virtually any modern theism. There is no common ground between Orwellian statism-as-God and individual libertarianism with freedom of (not “from”) religion.   There is only war.  One of the unfortunate problems of war is that certain distasteful methods must be employed simply because they are the only way to win. In this war, in a society that is largely a low-information, media-controlled battleground, logic and reason are, for the most part, ineffective.  The truth is ineffective because it is drowned out by a concerted cacophony of lies, or simply ignored by the gatekeepers of low-information infotainment.  What has been shown effective is the Alinsky arsenal of rhetoric, emotional manipulation, and narrative control.

I would find it distasteful to pick up a gun in a ground war and have to shoot others to defend my family and way of life, but I would do so.  Should I not pick up Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals and employ the weapons of my adversaries, if it is the most effective way  – perhaps the only way – of winning the cultural war?  There comes a point in time where all the high ground offers is one’s back against the precipice as the barbarian horde advances.

Does it make one a barbarian if one employs the tactics of the barbarian to win the war?  I’ve seen that argument countless times in the media: we will become that which we are fighting against.  I used to identify with that – I wouldn’t lower myself to “their” level.  The war wasn’t worth winning if it meant using the tactics of the enemy.  Now, however, I see that sentiment as part of the cultural conditioning towards the failure of good, principled people while the post-modernists employ our principles, our sense of reason, of good, of fair play, against us.  They have no compunction using the principles of Christianity (or any rational theistic morality) as a bludgeon to coerce the religious/spiritual into giving up social ground.

I would never pick up a gun and use it on anyone other than in circumstances where myself or my loved ones or way of life was at risk; and, after protecting those things, I would set it aside.  I have realized that there are weapons that must be used in a cultural war like we now face that I would never employ otherwise.  Using them in such a case doesn’t make me like those who use them all the time, in every case and instance, for whatever they want. Using a club to beat the barbarians back doesn’t make me a barbarian; it keeps the barbarians from taking over. Politely reasoning with them to protect a politely reasoning society only serves to hand the city over to the horde.

It isn’t using a club, or Alinsky-style tactics, that makes one a barbarian; it’s what one uses those tools in service of that makes the difference.  Would you lie to, ridicule, blacklist, bully a Nazi, if it meant saving your civilization? Make no mistake: that’s how they see us – as neanderthal Nazis standing in the way of their utopian, statist, religion-free, morally relative, science-as-gospel society – and they are willing to do anything to win their goal.

So, the question isn’t, to paraphrase the TSZ heading, “do Darwinists deserve charity”; of course they deserve it. Everyone does. That’s part of our modern, moral, rational theistic morality.  But the sad fact is, we cannot afford to give them charity, because to give them charity, IMO, is to give aid and comfort to an enemy bent upon our destruction, and the destruction of our way of life.

Comments
Dr Liddle,
I am not implying anything. I am overtly noting the fact that, as on similar occasions, you have provided no link that would enable people to judge for themselves whether they draw the same conclusions from the context as you do.
You are avoiding the question (and the responsibility) as to whether you think there is an appropriate context for the comments above, recorded on your site. You are stalling this answer because there was no appropriate context for those comments, and you know it. As a consequence, this demonstrates the hypocrisy you displayed by allowing it to take place for two months, and then effectively blaming me for it. As blog owner and administrator, you provide the rules and make the judgments. For you to dodge that responsibility with some diversion about a link is utter garbage.Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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In re: Liddle @ 201:
It’s worse than “pointless”. It’s potentially damaging to any dialogue between ID proponents and those of us who think that Darwin had an extraordinarily fruitful scientific idea that has given rise to an extremely good account of biological evolution.
I think you're missing the point of what's going on in this thread. Murray, KF, Box, Axel, and a few others here have decided that there is no point to any further attempts at "dialogue", because we are not persuaded by their arguments, nor us by theirs. "Dialogue" is no longer their intention. The basic attitude, as they have displayed it here, is that all attempts at reasonable dialogue have failed, because they have failed to persuade us that they are right. In the year or so that I've been posting here, I've tried to argue for the following claims: (1) pragmatism is not only a viable alternative to rationalism, but preferable because it avoids Agrippa's Trilemma; (2) neo-Darwinism, qua well-confirmed empirical theory, is world-view neutral, i.e. fully consistent with both 'naturalism' and 'theism'. (3) 'objectivity' can and should be construed along pragmatist, rather than rationalistic, lines -- as argued by pragmatists such as Hilary Putnam, Cheryl Misak, and others; (4) naturalism is fully consistent with pragmatic objectivity in morality, as argued by Dewey, C. I. Lewis, Sellars, Flanagan, Foot, Kitcher, and Churchland; (5) naturalism need not be committed to "reductionism," "materialism," or "physicalism" because of self-organization theory provides conceptual articulation of the concept of 'emergence', as argued by Stuart Kaufman, Evan Thomson, and Terrence Deacon; (6) hence one can affirm the reality of teleology with respect to life without grounding teleology in design -- in effect, reconciling "Darwin" with "Aristotle"; (7) "materialism" is better conceived of as modern-day Epicureanism, and has inherited all the defects of Epicurean metaphysics and epistemology; (8) the Epicurean Darwinists, beginning with Monod and continuing today with Dawkins and a few others, have done the popular perception of 'Darwinism' more harm than good by saddling 'Darwinism' with the defects of Epicurean metaphysics and epistemology; None of these claims have enjoyed any acceptance here, but I'm willing to continue the conversation. But the seeming majority of Uncommon Descent contributors have decided that the time for conversation is over. I find that sad, and regrettable, but if that's their decision, then there really is no point to trying to continue it. Of course, they all seem to think that we're the ones who terminated the possibility of reasonable dialogue, because we haven't been persuaded by them. As usual in life, there's more than enough blame to go around, and the "who started it?" is just another way of perpetuating the cycle of violence.Kantian Naturalist
September 17, 2013
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Elizabeth @205,
that would enable people to judge for themselves whether they draw the same conclusions from the context as you do
Folks like WJM, KF and other IDists don't want even the possibility of people drawing different conclusions from the context. Why would they want that, when they already possess the full and complete truth? Those poor schmoes out there -- that is, the "onlookers" -- might reach the wrong conclusion. The lost souls might be misled to believe ID has no science behind it and only stacks-upon-stacks of rhetoric, quote-mines, anti-atheism, anti-science, fantasies of being "persecuted," borrowed concepts, stale philosophy, ever-mobile goalposts, fuzzy math, a love of Godwin's Law, perpetual visions of crisis and apocalypse, and pretty much the worst collective sense of humor ever. That's why WJM has such bitterness for high-information media consumers and instead wants to sucker the "low-information media consumer" -- whoever that may be, perhaps by 82-year-old uncle. That's why KF keeps banging on about some inconsequential challenge he issued (ooooh, if it's a challenge then we better alert the scientists!), and about how FSCO/I really is a real concept that supports ID, and about how Plato's cave applies to atheists and not to theist-ideologues like himself. That's why Robert Byers and Joe get to post their inanity day-after-day. Whatever censure they get, if any, must be happening behind the scenes. That's why deNews doesn't fact-check. Why bother, when the truth is already known? Atheism-materialism-Darwinism-"The Beard" = bad, bad, bad.LarTanner
September 17, 2013
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Elizabeth B Liddle #201
Darwin had an extraordinarily fruitful scientific idea that has given rise to an extremely good account of biological evolution.
Errata corrige: Darwin had an extraordinarily erroneous pseudo-scientific idea that has given rise to an extremely absurd account of biological creation. Lizzie, open your beautiful eyes, please.niwrad
September 17, 2013
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DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution. As such, DARWINISTS should be excluded from the table of civilized discourse and treated with contempt.
A natural means of genetic distribution? As opposed to what? A supernatural means of genetic distribution? Is this a reference to the book A Natural History of Rape (2000)? If it is, it's probably worth pointing out that: 1) The book received very little support and 2) The authors actually argued for much stronger penalties for rape.goodusername
September 17, 2013
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There’s something here that smacks of elitism to me.
You can call it it elitism if you want, but that doesn't make it any less true. It's the well-established, successful practice of successful marketing and advertising. Your average consumer purchases products because they positively, emotionally identify with the marketing slogans and imagery. Most people come to their beliefs via emotion, not via logic. Most people don't even know the basic principles of logic, much less how to appropriately utilize them. That's also the reason why rational debates matter much, much less in the cultural arena than a good, emotional meme, whether or not that meme is true or false.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Maybe we should all just get back to the pretty tale of how the lawd said "let there be FSCO/I," and there was, and it was optimal.LarTanner
September 17, 2013
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WJM:
One cannot convince by reason those who are immune to it.
This is probably true. But irrelevant, as it begs the question as to what is reasonable and who is "immune".
Which is why, as I have pointed out here, other tactics – such as marketing and propagandizing the low-information media consumer – are warranted.
So you assume that because you have not been persuasive, that your readers are "immune to reason" and must be propaganized instead. You forget an alternative scenario: that your readers found you unpersuasive because your argument was flawed.
The goal is not to try and convert the entrenched, intractable intelligensia, but rather to redirect culture from the ground up via emotional perceptions and attachments.
I find the arrogance of this statement truly chilling.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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I am not implying anything. I am overtly noting the fact that, as on similar occasions, you have provided no link that would enable people to judge for themselves whether they draw the same conclusions from the context as you do. You clearly have a record of the post. What on earth is the problem in providing an actual citation?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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One cannot convince by reason those who are immune to it. Which is why, as I have pointed out here, other tactics – such as marketing and propagandizing the low-information media consumer – are warranted. The goal is not to try and convert the entrenched, intractable intelligensia, but rather to redirect culture from the ground up via emotional perceptions and attachments.
Who are the 'low-information media consumer[s]'? '[E]motional perceptions and attachments' instead of reasoned arguments, data and research? There's something here that smacks of elitism to me. But maybe I'm just immune to reason.Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Dr Liddle at 197,
I am accusing you of making allegations without providing a link whereby people can see whether they form the same view as you did.
You are implying that there was an appropriate context for the comments above.Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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One cannot convince by reason those who are immune to it. Which is why, as I have pointed out here, other tactics - such as marketing and propagandizing the low-information media consumer - are warranted. The goal is not to try and convert the entrenched, intractable intelligensia, but rather to redirect culture from the ground up via emotional perceptions and attachments.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Hard to imagine a thread more fated to be utterly pointless than this one.
It's worse than "pointless". It's potentially damaging to any dialogue between ID proponents and those of us who think that Darwin had an extraordinarily fruitful scientific idea that has given rise to an extremely good account of biological evolution.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Box:
WJM presents the well-known problem of morality for Naturalism and Darwinism: many philosophers have argued that these hypothesis are unable to accommodate morality.
1. "Darwinism" is not a hypothesis. Darwinian mechanisms are hypothesised to account for adaptive evolution. It doesn't not "accommodate morality" and doesn't have to, any more than the germ theory of disease has to "accommodate morality". Like all scientific hypotheses, it just has to account for data. 2. "Naturalism", if take to mean the belief that there are no forces in the world apart from those discoverable by science, is also not a hypothesis but a philosophical position. 3. Some philosophers have argued that "naturalism" is incompatible with morality. Others have argued that moral systems are reachable by reason and do not require belief in god or gods. 4. By any definition of Darwinism, or rape, the view that rape is "nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution" is absurd". There are many perfectly natural means of genetic distribution, and most of them are not rape. Rape, therefore, is sometimes more, and also less. Rape is, as you well know, sex without consent. That is one heck of a lot more than "a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution". 5. By accusing "Darwinists", by which WJM appears to mean atheists, of believing that "that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution" he is at worst attributing to atheists an amorality and callousness that I have never come across in any atheist, and, at best, merely promoting his conviction that it is not possible to be an atheist and have a "non-stolen" morality. Many people disagree with him on this, and have mounted cogent counter-arguments. He is not persuaded by them. Neither am I by his.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Hard to imagine a thread more fated to be utterly pointless than this one.Reciprocating Bill
September 17, 2013
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#183 ElizabethBL
#180 WJM: DARWINISM is the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution.
WJM presents the well-known problem of morality for Naturalism and Darwinism: many philosophers have argued that these hypothesis are unable to accommodate morality. Since there is no point in pretending that there is anything new here, Elizabeth’s first sentence is lacking intelligible meaning.
#183 ElizabethBL: If that is not an example of reinventing definitions on the fly, I don’t know what is.
#183 ElizabethBL: But if you want my view on record, I do not hold “the belief that RAPE is, ultimately, nothing more than a perfectly natural means of genetic distribution.” If that disqualifies me as a Darwinist, fine.
Pretending to be ignorant of the well-known morality problem for Darwinism, pretending to not understand why WJM is saying what he is saying, pretending to be morally outraged and trying to cover up matters with the statement ‘I’m against rape’, disqualifies you as intellectually honest person.Box
September 17, 2013
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I'm not accusing you of lying, Upright BiPed. I am accusing you of making allegations without providing a link whereby people can see whether they form the same view as you did. I'm perfectly sure that you are not lying when you say I am a hypocrite. I am also perfectly sure you are mistaken.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Yes Liddle, go with something like... "BiPed is lying about this" That should work.Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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Why don't you ever provide an actual link Upright BiPed? You know, so that people can see the context, and make their own evaluation regarding my alleged "hypocrisy"?Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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Dr Liddle in #178 says: "Your accusations of hypocrisy are unfounded." - - - - - - - July 2012
In the previous thread, RB was forced to concede the underpinnings of both of his main arguments. RB and I reached that point without too much overt mud-slinging, at least not beyond what is generally seen in such exchanges. At (and around) the point of his concessions, the condescension and mockery from the gallery became a runaway train. Elizabeth then took action. In perfect form, she very graciously put the entire thrust of the issue squarely on my shoulders, naming no one else whatsoever, and envisioned an extended conversation where people could communicate without the hyperbole. She stated:
"I think what I might do is to start a new thread, in which the rules of this site are more strictly enforced … Upright BiPed, please read the forum rules here. They are not onerous, and I have no wish to censor ideas. I do want to ensure that emotional baggage and assumptions about other posters’ motivations are rigorously excluded. Let’s conduct this in an academically rigorous way … Violating posts will be moved"
Mike Elzinga’s contribution to the conversation prior to Elizabeth taking action:
“your effort seem like a naive and pretentious attempt to replace well-understood phenomena with something woo-woo … I find both UBP and WJM excruciatingly boring; and I suspect that the reason is that there is a remarkable similarity to other crackpots … one begins to wonder if there is any thought process there at all. I would suggest not … they hone their marketing shtick for their presentations to the gullible … There is another frequent correlation one sees among crackpotists; they often quote scripture from the Christian bible … has an instinctive hatred and distrust of science and any other perceived “competing authority” … don’t even appear to understand the question … a familiar characteristic of pseudo-science … you have no idea what you are talking about or what it is that you are attempting … Your obvious distain for age, experience, knowledge, and the female gender … YOU – I repeat – YOU were the one … you don’t have the slightest clue … You have no idea … you really have no clue … You have made no “material observations” … You have never taken a chemistry or physics class … comes from the socio/political culture of ID/creationism … The words don’t matter … bury his reification of ID/creationist misconceptions … an increasingly complex labyrinth of obfuscation and condescension … simply gussies it all up … an air-tight bundle of circular reasoning … Another would be ID “theorist” bites the dust … it too dissolves into nothingness … such lengthy, turgid prose … a quagmire of words … Crackpots never let go voluntarily; they will ride you to death”.
…and Elzinga’s contributions after Elizabeth’s action:
His language has another purpose, namely, to establish a sectarian version of the universe …this is what UB is trying to do … As is evident in all of UB’s communication, he has never freed himself from projection … his own inner demons onto others … The Semiotic Theory of Intelligent Scattering … It is curious that ID/creationists don’t jump on things … Making a caricature of science and then shooting it down with great fanfare has been the socio/political tactic of creationists … every ID/creationist does it, and their rube followers – such as UB here … Just make up stuff and simply assert that anyone who knows anything about science is stupid … the fundamentalists who are against everything secular and the educational dropouts who harbor intense hatreds for those who actually try to learn … his rants pretty much revealed that he is engaged in a game of revenge … impressions I sometimes get from UB’s turgid writing … UB doesn’t appear to have any sense of humor whatsoever …This isn’t an intellectual discussion for him … it’s a personal vendetta against all smart people.
And the enlightened contributions of others, like petrushka, pendant, flint, and others…
The argument from ignorance is no way to go through life … UPB, and most ID advocates have not studied the history of science, or have learned nothing from it …UPB is arguing that because the templating process involved in translation is so complicated, it isn’t templating … Creationists (a group which includes ID-pushers) explicitly reject … The magic threshold … Why, then, do Creationists think … I think it touches on their “designer” … UPB’s argument relies on the following premises: If you haven’t observed it, it doesn’t exist … Perhaps we should all adopt a worldview that doesn’t require this pathetic level of detail … Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New ‘Intelligent Falling’ Theory … The goal is NOT to understand how something came to be … FIRST, assume goddidit as the default … and POOF using our conclusions as our assumptions once again “proves” our conclusions … In all of these efforts, the creationists make abundant use of a simple tactic: They lie. They lie continually, they lie prodigiously, and they lie because they must … What do you do to support a lie? You lie!
So what is Elizabeth’s response to this “academically rigorous” critique which “ensures that emotional baggage and assumptions about other posters’ motivations are rigorously excluded?” Well, again in perfect form, she joins in and chats right along. That is all fine. No problem, it’s hardly important, and certainly nothing else was expected from her. I simply wanted to point out the hypocrisy.
Upright BiPed
September 17, 2013
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Timaeus:
When these people start saying things that have nothing to do with “Darwinism” in the scientific sense, we can legitimately respond to them exactly as they deserve, with no punches pulled. When we are sure they are lying, and not merely making a mistake, we can say they are lying. When we have the evidence to prove they act out of personal animus, we can accuse them of that. When they call for the firing of professors or the flunking of students who don’t agree with Darwinian theory (note: they want to punish those who “don’t agree with,” not “don’t understand”; Paul Nelson understands Darwinian theory better than many a Darwin-defender, but doesn’t agree with it), we can rightly accuse them of advocating the suppression of ideas and of paving the way for a totalitarian society.
Precisely. In this thread, in response to the slander fest at TSZ and the censorship and career busting at BSU, that has been shown. In reply to the slanders and scapegoating based on twisting the so called wedge document into pretzels, this has been repeatedly linked and shorter summaries given. Notice, no substantial, cogent reply. There is a reason, because the toxic accusations are patently groundless and false. They are dishonourable smears, driven by what is or should be known to be false. Instead of retraction and apology, we have met enabling. I am therefore, for cause, calling good cop bad cop game. The time has come to expose evil and name it for what it is. Gotta go. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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Jerad: As was already documented, the dominance of evolutionary materialism has been in a context where a prioris have been injected. The issues I am raising are saying, show the observationally anchored driving dynamics, or else yield to the force of the logic of induction used in science and admit that there is a known causal factor capable of FSCO/I as is needed to explain both OOL and OO body plans. Now also there is a twistabout attempt above that tries to pretend that my not having time or energy -- I barely have either for this thread, I am forcing myself and will pay for it -- to denounce relatively mild invective somehow invalidates the fact that I have stood up routinely to address breakdowns of civility at UD, and by extension that this invalidates strictures against a slander fest of false accusations of fraud, right wing neo-nazi wedge document in a pretzel conspiracy stories and more. Sorry, there is no equivalency. For the record -- I don't have time to go looking for a thread, those design upporters who resorted to schoolyard taunts were definitely counter-productive to a side that stands on the merits and should refrain themselves from such adolescent indulgences that prove nothing. But to point out that strawman tactics, red herrings, ad hominems, slanders and worse are routinely resorted to on the other side is in order. The identification of a good cop bad cop vicious enabling of evil game is most definitely in order, and in order in a context of false accusation of in effect nazisn. As in the prototypical genocide and police state tyranny of the century past. Of course, don't you dare point out the links from Darwin and Haevkel to Hitler and co, or H G Wells' warnings in his popular sci fi like War of the worlds etc. Nio no no, we must never learn from the warnings of history on what darwinism influenced extremists have done, even as they are right now indulging again in slander, scapegoating, censorship -- BSU that's you, and career busting -- BSU again. We weren't born yesterday, and your side started the fight, below the belt. As is the use of several devastating cat out of the bag statements that take on new meaning in light of what we are seeing at TSZ. Let me just put up one from 2350 years ago, asking reasonable onlookers to reflect on just how sadly well the cap fits. Plato, in the Laws, Bk X:
Ath. . . . [[The avant garde philosophers and poets, c. 360 BC] say that fire and water, and earth and air [[i.e the classical "material" elements of the cosmos], all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies which come next in order-earth, and sun, and moon, and stars-they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate existences. The elements are severally moved by chance and some inherent force according to certain affinities among them-of hot with cold, or of dry with moist, or of soft with hard, and according to all the other accidental admixtures of opposites which have been formed by necessity. After this fashion and in this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in the heaven, as well as animals and all plants, and all the seasons come from these elements, not by the action of mind, as they say, or of any God, or from art, but as I was saying, by nature and chance only. [[In short, evolutionary materialism premised on chance plus necessity acting without intelligent guidance on primordial matter is hardly a new or a primarily "scientific" view! Notice also, the trichotomy of causal factors: (a) chance/accident, (b) mechanical necessity of nature, (c) art or intelligent design and direction.] . . . . [[Thus, they hold that t]he Gods exist not by nature, but by art, and by the laws of states, which are different in different places, according to the agreement of those who make them; and that the honourable is one thing by nature and another thing by law, and that the principles of justice have no existence at all in nature, but that mankind are always disputing about them and altering them; and that the alterations which are made by art and by law have no basis in nature, but are of authority for the moment and at the time at which they are made.- [[Relativism, too, is not new; complete with its radical amorality rooted in a worldview that has no foundational IS that can ground OUGHT. (Cf. here for Locke's views and sources on a very different base for grounding liberty as opposed to license and resulting anarchistic "every man does what is right in his own eyes" chaos leading to tyranny. )] These, my friends, are the sayings of wise men, poets and prose writers, which find a way into the minds of youth. They are told by them that the highest right is might [[ Evolutionary materialism leads to the promotion of amorality], and in this way the young fall into impieties, under the idea that the Gods are not such as the law bids them imagine; and hence arise factions [[Evolutionary materialism-motivated amorality "naturally" leads to continual contentions and power struggles; cf. dramatisation here], these philosophers inviting them to lead a true life according to nature, that is, to live in real dominion over others [[such amoral factions, if they gain power, "naturally" tend towards ruthless tyranny], and not in legal subjection to them.
Now I have to go, the day is tapping feet impatiently. There are crises to attend to, negotiations to address. And meanwhile time ticks away to frightening surgery. KFkairosfocus
September 17, 2013
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In my view, “civilized discourse” does not equal “posts without rude words in them”. Accusing others of lying, of hypocrisy, and of trying to destroy society, is just as uncivilised, in my view, as doing the same thing using ruder words.
It'll be interesting to see if some of the UD regulars agree. But, I suppose all things are fair in love and war . . . Except spelling 'civilised' with a 'z'! That sure is beyond the pale!Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Timaeus: Thank you for that post.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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In my view, "civilized discourse" does not equal "posts without rude words in them". Accusing others of lying, of hypocrisy, and of trying to destroy society, is just as uncivilised, in my view, as doing the same thing using ruder words. That's why the rule at TSZ is "assume other posters are posting in good faith" not "do not use rude words when accusing others of posting in bad faith".Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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William:
EL: If you are an atheist, and you believe in Darwinistic evolution, then you necessarily believe that rape is nothing more, ultimately, than a natural means of genetic distribution – because it cannot be anything else under the Darwinistic perspective.
In my view, William, as I have said many times, this argument is fallacious. Rape is sex without mutual consent. That is far more than "a natural means of genetic distribution". You are confusing "natural" with "morally justified".
That you and most Darwinists lie to yourselves about it (and so many other things) to avoid facing shameful but necessary ramifications of the beliefs you hold is not my problem. It’s not my job to allow your ilk to walk around destroying society in your blissful ignorance of the ramifications of your poisonous views. It’s my job – now – to point out your shameful positions without phrasing them in such a way to avoid your discomfort.
First of all, you do not have to be an atheist to hold that Darwin's theory of evolution is a good and well-supported scientific theory, and many are who do so are not atheists. Second, you do not have to hold that Darwin's theory of evolution is a good and well-supported theory to be an atheist, and I've met many atheists who know zilch about the theory of evolution. Third, what one's views are whether Darwin's theory of evolution is a good and well-supported theory has nothing to do with one's views on morality. Fourth, contrary to your repeated assertion, it is perfectly possible to hold the belief that it is wrong to exploit others' welfare for your pleasure without simultaneously holding the belief that there is a god or gods. Fifth, I simply reject your allegation that atheists are walking around destroying society. That is precisely the kind of enmity that I accuse you of stirring up in your OP, where none exists.
Darwinism necessarily holds that rape & pedophilia cannot be anything other than a naturally selected-for trait, like being right-handed or having blue eyes.
And this indicates the profundity of your misunderstanding of evolutionary theory, as well as your conflation of is with ought.
Punishing such behavior would be like punishing someone for having dark hair. Condemning rapists and pedophiles would be like condemning someone for having a different skin color. If you don’t acknowledge this view, you are a hypocrite and at best self-deceived liar.
No, merely someone clear-sighted enough to realise that "punishment" does not merely consist of treating someone they way they think they "deserve" but also of treating someone in a way that is likely to result in, at best, their behaving better, and, at worst, doing less harm.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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That you and most Darwinists lie to yourselves about it (and so many other things) to avoid facing shameful but necessary ramifications of the beliefs you hold is not my problem. It’s not my job to allow your ilk to walk around destroying society in your blissful ignorance of the ramifications of your poisonous views. It’s my job – now – to point out your shameful positions without phrasing them in such a way to avoid your discomfort.
And no one from UD is telling you to stop.
Darwinism necessarily holds that rape & pedophilia cannot be anything other than a naturally selected-for trait, like being right-handed or having blue eyes. Punishing such behavior would be like punishing someone for having dark hair. Condemning rapists and pedophiles would be like condemning someone for having a different skin color. If you don’t acknowledge this view, you are a hypocrite and at best self-deceived liar.
I would very much like to know which of the UD moderators and regular commenters agree with this. Also does this kind of accusation fit in with UD's policies on civilised discourse?Jerad
September 17, 2013
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Regarding the lead question, "Can we afford to be charitable to Darwinists?", I have a comment. "Darwinism" can (though Gregory doesn't like to admit it) refer to a strictly biological theory, i.e., what Behe calls "Darwinian evolution." In fact, biologists were using the term "Darwinism" for the model of evolution built on "natural selection" very early on (as far as I know, before "social Darwinism" appeared as a term, though I'm willing to be corrected on that). You still see "Darwinism" used from time to time to refer to the biological theory, and you certainly see "neo-Darwinism" (which is the main target of ID writing) used to refer to a scientific theory, not an ideology or social doctrine of any kind. Often ID writers use "Darwinism" as a convenient short form for "neo-Darwinism," or a sort of blanket term to cover both the original Darwinian theory and neo-Darwinism, since they have a main thesis in common (natural selection acting on variation can function as a designer substitute) and since the later descended from the earlier (by the addition of Mendelian genetics, advanced mathematical treatment, and the notion of "random mutations"). Now if we understand "Darwinists" simply as advocates of the aforementioned scientific theory, then of course we should be "charitable" to them, as we should be "charitable" to anyone who advances any scientific theory (or historical hypothesis, or social science theory, etc.). That is, we should assume, at the outset, that they are intellectually honest, and as concerned about getting at the truth as we are; that their agenda is scientific and not religious or political; that they are not out to get us personally but merely disagree with our views. These are minimal social requirements for debating in good faith, and you can't have something like a university, or a civilized society, without them. So we shouldn't demonize someone merely because he or she believes that random mutations filtered by natural selection can produce a man from a bacterium without an intelligent designer's involvement. We should try to find out why the person believes that; we should examine the person's evidence and arguments. And we should offer, without commentary on the person's alleged motives, our critique of the arguments, and state our own position, without rancor. On the other hand, if "Darwinism" moves beyond a strictly scientific theory, and becomes wedded to atheism and/or materialism, and to social policies such banning all religious symbols from the public square, or to political policies such as forbidding science teachers from even mentioning *scientific* criticisms of Darwinian theory in biology classes, etc., then we of course have the right to challenge the ideological, theological, religious, etc. elements in Darwinism *as* ideological, theological, religious, etc., and refute them the way we would refute ideological, theological, religious propositions (as opposed to scientific propositions). So the proper way to refute Dawkins's *Blind Watchmaker* is via something like Behe's *Darwin's Black Box*. In those books, both Dawkins and Behe largely "stick to the science." People will differ over whose scientific argument is better, but I think it's fair to say that the debate there is scientific. Behe, in his criticism of the neo-Darwinism of Dawkins (whose BW book he praises for its clarity in setting forth the Darwinian position), avoids speculating about Dawkins's motives and concentrates on what in his mind is the inadequacy of Dawkins's mechanism. But when Dawkins starts raving against religion, and makes false historical claims against it, and gets its contents wrong, and exhibits what looks like a personal vendetta against it, then he reveals a non-scholarly, non-scientific attitude toward his material, and he should be "called" on that. Being "charitable" doesn't require us to be meek in responding to his prejudiced and one-sided attack. We can be quite stern in rebuking Dawkins, or others who write in the same vein. That doesn't mean we should be impolite. We don't need to call Dawkins names. But we can say that he is being unfair, that he has made no effort to represent religion fully or in a balanced way, that he focuses on the worst rather than the best arguments in favor of religion, etc. We can, where the evidence warrants, accuse him of evasiveness, deliberate suppression of contrary evidence, personal animus, verbal bullying, over-the-top rhetoric, substituting mockery for argument, intellectual narrow-mindedness, etc. We can dress him down for his bad intellectual procedures and for engaging in sub-academic demagogy. And we aren't required to be gentle or smiley-faced when we do it. And Dawkins is relatively polite in comparison with some of our opponents. Coyne and Shallit drip with sarcasm and condescension, and Myers is downright rude (in addition to being probably most intellectually vacuous of all our opponents outside of his narrow field, as shallow a "science geek" as you will find in the whole design/Darwinism debate). When these people start saying things that have nothing to do with "Darwinism" in the scientific sense, we can legitimately respond to them exactly as they deserve, with no punches pulled. When we are sure they are lying, and not merely making a mistake, we can say they are lying. When we have the evidence to prove they act out of personal animus, we can accuse them of that. When they call for the firing of professors or the flunking of students who don't agree with Darwinian theory (note: they want to punish those who "don't agree with," not "don't understand"; Paul Nelson understands Darwinian theory better than many a Darwin-defender, but doesn't agree with it), we can rightly accuse them of advocating the suppression of ideas and of paving the way for a totalitarian society. As long as these guys stick to biology, we should do the same. But the moment they move outside that province, and become culture warriors of various kinds, they move into a different kind of debate, where different standards apply. In science, arguments about the personal motives of the opponent are rightly ruled out of court; in social affairs, personal motives are highly relevant and can be brought to light and sharply criticized. In the extreme case, it may sometimes be necessary to publically call Myers a Philistine lacking all breeding, and a science geek with a woeful lack of a good general education, in order to humiliate him publically and curtail his evil influence on public affairs. But that should never be done when he is making strictly scientific arguments. We should never hit below the belt when our opponent is playing by the rules. Thus, while we all know that Larry Moran can personally be quite a jerk (and many of his students think so, too, as you can see when you read some of the comments attached to his abysmally low teacher ratings on one of the websites where students rank their teachers), the fact that he is sometimes a jerk as a human being doesn't give us the right to dismiss his scientific arguments. On the other hand, if he so frequently interlaces his scientific arguments with personal comments about IDiots etc. that it consumes too much of our time and effort to sort out the wheat from the chaff in his writing, we aren't required to *read* those arguments; if he is not willing to learn the way that scientific debate is conducted, he has no right to an audience. So we have every right to say that we will not deign to reply to material that is written in an immature and partisan spirit. We have every right to say: "Larry, we are not going to read your arrogant and sarcastic blogging any more; cut out all the non-scientific crap, drop the attitude, distill the scientific essence, and publish the pure argument in a peer-reviewed journal (something you don't seem to have done for over ten years now!), and then we will examine what you have to say." That's not "uncharitable"; it's just telling Moran to grow up and act like a man and a scientist, not a quarrelsome twenty-something grad student in a pub. It's what he needs to hear, to become a better scientist and a better human being, and therefore it's the kindest, most charitable thing we can do for him.Timaeus
September 17, 2013
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EL: If you are an atheist, and you believe in Darwinistic evolution, then you necessarily believe that rape is nothing more, ultimately, than a natural means of genetic distribution - because it cannot be anything else under the Darwinistic perspective. That you and most Darwinists lie to yourselves about it (and so many other things) to avoid facing shameful but necessary ramifications of the beliefs you hold is not my problem. It's not my job to allow your ilk to walk around destroying society in your blissful ignorance of the ramifications of your poisonous views. It's my job - now - to point out your shameful positions without phrasing them in such a way to avoid your discomfort. Darwinism necessarily holds that rape & pedophilia cannot be anything other than a naturally selected-for trait, like being right-handed or having blue eyes. Punishing such behavior would be like punishing someone for having dark hair. Condemning rapists and pedophiles would be like condemning someone for having a different skin color. If you don't acknowledge this view, you are a hypocrite and at best self-deceived liar.William J Murray
September 17, 2013
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Check the After the Bar Closes threads, and we’ll see you posting cheerfully alongside people doing exactly what I said, laughing and/or turning a blind eye to everything from the foulest name calling to picture alteration to more.
Guilt-by-association, Nullasalus? What did the founder of your religion think about that?
Second, who brought up science? See, Elizabeth, if in the course of an argument a person keeps changing their definitions their argument relies on after the claim they were arguing for failed as a result of it, that’s not a case of ‘being real super precise and scientific!’ It’s just good ol’ fashioned BSing. Goalpost moving. Misdirection. Intellectual dishonesty.
Yes, indeed, Nullasalus. But I do not do that.Elizabeth B Liddle
September 17, 2013
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